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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's a case of one person that's a close friend to Alm that got it, but it's not a case of how the society now allows anyone to become a noble. Tobin is an exception, but not the status quo. Because we KNOW it's not meritocratic, but still a dynasty. Tobin just became a new noble with a new bloodline. But there's no selected successor like there is for Edelgard's, but rather Alm's son takes over the united Kingdom. 

No. Not at all. In the grand scheme of things, Alm less earned everything as opposed to having things given to him. Also, you kept saying that Alm can fail and be removed, but... no. Alm can fail to save Delthea, and he can fail to save Mathilda. The latter has Clive let his anger out on Alm, but Alm STILL holds his position as leader. In the end, he doesn't lose anything on account of his failures. And the narration even outright states that Alm's path wasn't something he traveled by own own skill, but something that had been manipulated and shaped for him to cross the entire time. Alm played a part, but not something that he earned purely through merit. 

You aren't making any sense there.

The thing is, the game doesn't really go to state one or the other. Tobin may be Alm's friend, but he still pulled his weight, which is the main bulk of the reason he got that title in the first place. Ultimately, what matters is not the system in place, but rather that the people are taught to use it well. So what if Alm's son is the heir due birth and not election? It would be his (and Celica's, too) responsibility to ensure his heir is also a good ruler. If anything, they have the example of Lima IV to show right of rule by birth matters little. Lima IV was still deposed and executed for incompetence... which he ended up asking for it, since he didn't work to keep his right of rule.

Because this is still a work of fiction, and a video game to boot. The narrative won't allow Alm to be stripped of his leadership, so his failures instead reflect he simply can't do everything perfectly. Keep in mind that even if you he fails to save Mathilda or Delteha, it doesn't change the fact he still drives the Rigelians out of Zofia. So it still justifies his leadership position. He worked well, just not perfect; and that's still something.

Ultimately, I feel that, in my opinion, things like your attitude and view on the matter, as well as things like this:

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I would also like to point out how many times Gray and Tobin explicitly mention how different Alm is from them and that’s why he’s better than them which is to foreshadow his royal lineage. That alone spits in the face of the whole noble vs commoner theme here

That are part of the problem. You are being no different from characters like Ferdinand. Look how quickly you are to demean or disregard characters like the Ram villagers' accomplishements, just because of Alm.

Shouldn't the fact someone like Tobin rose far beyond his station, all thanks to his hard work and merits, be something to celebrate? He went beyond what was expected of him due to his station of birth. Yet you act like it doesn't matter, just because Alm was always one or several steps higher. Thing is, it's a fact of life. Not everyone is equal. Not everyone will reach the same heights. So what do we do about it? Do we wallow in self-pity, complain, be envious or even resentful of those that are better than us? Or we simply strive to reach as far high as we can, and accept that it's still a great accomplishment, even if some people will still be higher than us? The former is a good way to develop Tall Poppy syndrome, in my opinion, and that's kinda dangerous for society as a whole.

It goes both ways. Should we demean those below us, rest in our laurels, resent when others are catching up with us? Of course not. Otherwise you could end up like Ferdinand. Even those born of privilege must put the effort, because things like that are not static. If anything, having more privileges and silver platters instead puts a bigger spotlight on you to show you deserve them. Alm is still just one person. Even if he's an exception, it's not even a complete exception, since some things he still worked for it. His station meant nothing when it came to that. It's the equivalent of being a teacher. A teacher isn't to the same standard as his/her students, so should what s/he teaches be invalidated because it doesn't fully apply to him/her self? No.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That are part of the problem. You are being no different from characters like Ferdinand. Look how quickly you are to demean or disregard characters like the Ram villagers' accomplishements, just because of Alm.

Shouldn't the fact someone like Tobin rose far beyond his station, all thanks to his hard work and merits, be something to celebrate? He went beyond what was expected of him due to his station of birth. Yet you act like it doesn't matter, just because Alm was always one or several steps higher. Thing is, it's a fact of life. Not everyone is equal. Not everyone will reach the same heights. So what do we do about it? Do we wallow in self-pity, complain, be envious or even resentful of those that are better than us? Or we simply strive to reach as far high as we can, and accept that it's still a great accomplishment, even if some people will still be higher than us? The former is a good way to develop Tall Poppy syndrome, in my opinion, and that's kinda dangerous for society as a whole.

It goes both ways. Should we demean those below us, rest in our laurels, resent when others are catching up with us? Of course not. Otherwise you could end up like Ferdinand. Even those born of privilege must put the effort, because things like that are not static. If anything, having more privileges and silver platters instead puts a bigger spotlight on you to show you deserve them. Alm is still just one person. Even if he's an exception, it's not even a complete exception, since something he still worked for it. His station meant nothing when it came to that. It's the equivalent of being a teacher. A teacher isn't to the same standard as his/her students, so should what s/he teaches be invalidated because it doesn't fully apply to him/her self? No.

Do I need to pull up quotes from the actual script? Because they're demeaning themselves not me. Here just read it:

Spoiler

Tobin: Wow… That gave me goosebumps. Not bad, Alm. Not bad.

Gray: Were you even listening to a thing he said? Your goosebump-giver just declared war on the whole damned empire!

Tobin: I know, but I think it was a nice spee— WAIT, HE DID WHAT?! No, no. Come on, this isn’t WAR, Gray. He’s just going to kick them out.

Gray: Riiiight. And then Emperor Rudolf will just send a fruit basket to apologize! C’mon, Tobin. You can’t be so thick that you don’t see what’s coming.

Tobin: Hmm…

Gray: What? Stop staring at me. It’s creepy.

Tobin: You knew it would come to this, didn’t you? When you agreed to join the Deliverance, I mean.

Gray: Oh, come now.

Tobin: You’re the one who said all those years ago that Alm was different from us. You knew he was going to do something like this one day.

Gray: Ha! I’m not a prophet, Tobin. All I meant was that he’s different.

Tobin: Well, you were on to something no matter what you meant. Because now we’re starting to see that he’s much bigger than we are. I’m proud of him, but…I’m also going to miss him.

Gray: Oh, brother. You poor kid, Tobin.

Notice how Tobin and Gray explicitly mention how much different Alm is and how many more leagues above he is compared to them. Child Gray also says something like this the prologue. Hell, one of Tobin's base conversations has him outright admitting that he will never reach Alm's level no matter hard he works. Now if the game's themes were actually about how the station of one's birth shouldn't determine their worth then the game would never make a point of this. In fact it would make the opposite point and actually highlight the equivalency between Tobin and Alm. the problem is that Alm is stated to be "different" from Tobin and therefore better then Tobin by default and that difference is later revealed to the fact that alm is actually a royal. It just spits in the face of the message the game is trying to send.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The thing is, the game doesn't really go to state one or the other. Tobin may be Alm's friend, but he still pulled his weight, which is the main bulk of the reason he got that title in the first place. Ultimately, what matters is not the system in place, but rather that the people are taught to use it well. So what if Alm's son is the heir due birth and not election? It would be his (and Celica's, too) responsibility to ensure his heir is also a good ruler. If anything, they have the example of Lima IV to show right of rule by birth matters little. Lima IV was still deposed and executed for incompetence... which he ended up asking for it, since he didn't work to keep his right of rule.

Because this is still a work of fiction, and a video game to boot. The narrative won't allow Alm to be stripped of his leadership, so his failures instead reflect he simply can't do everything perfectly. Keep in mind that even if you he fails to save Mathilda or Delteha, it doesn't change the fact he still drives the Rigelians out of Zofia. So it still justifies his leadership position. He worked well, just not perfect; and that's still something.

Ultimately, I feel that, in my opinion, things like your attitude and view on the matter, as well as things like this:

That are part of the problem. You are being no different from characters like Ferdinand. Look how quickly you are to demean or disregard characters like the Ram villagers' accomplishements, just because of Alm.

Shouldn't the fact someone like Tobin rose far beyond his station, all thanks to his hard work and merits, be something to celebrate? He went beyond what was expected of him due to his station of birth. Yet you act like it doesn't matter, just because Alm was always one or several steps higher. Thing is, it's a fact of life. Not everyone is equal. Not everyone will reach the same heights. So what do we do about it? Do we wallow in self-pity, complain, be envious or even resentful of those that are better than us? Or we simply strive to reach as far high as we can, and accept that it's still a great accomplishment, even if some people will still be higher than us? The former is a good way to develop Tall Poppy syndrome, in my opinion, and that's kinda dangerous for society as a whole.

It goes both ways. Should we demean those below us, rest in our laurels, resent when others are catching up with us? Of course not. Otherwise you could end up like Ferdinand. Even those born of privilege must put the effort, because things like that are not static. If anything, having more privileges and silver platters instead puts a bigger spotlight on you to show you deserve them. Alm is still just one person. Even if he's an exception, it's not even a complete exception, since some things he still worked for it. His station meant nothing when it came to that. It's the equivalent of being a teacher. A teacher isn't to the same standard as his/her students, so should what s/he teaches be invalidated because it doesn't fully apply to him/her self? No.

I feel you're trying to go circles around this. No matter how you look at this, Alm does NOT live up to his overall ideals. He tries to preach that the station of one's birth does not matter, that nobles and commoners are the same, when he doesn't create a system that removes that notion. Tobin getting a castle is an exception, not the status quo, because the system doesn't actually change. This isn't like Edelgard, who actually DOES work on removing the nobility system and allow opportunities to exist for the new generations. 

Alm doesn't do this. In the end, he keeps a system that sticks to the bloodlines, that nobility system still exists, where there remains a divide between the nobility and commoners. Tobin is a lucky commoner to earn a title, which does happen, but that doesn't dismantle the nobility system. 

And in the end, no matter how you try to dance around it, fiction or not, Alm's path, everything he does and accomplishes, they are less of his own merit, and more just a path that was already laid out for him. In this end, everything about his was because of the station of his birth, so his words that such stations don't matter fall on deaf ears. He tries to think that he is no different, but the game proves that no, he is different. 

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6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Do I need to pull up quotes from the actual script? Because they're demeaning themselves not me. Here just read it:Notice how Tobin and Gray explicitly mention how much different Alm is and how many more leagues above he is compared to them. Child Gray also says something like this the prologue. Hell, one of Tobin's base conversations has him outright admitting that he will never reach Alm's level no matter hard he works. Now if the game's themes were actually about how the station of one's birth shouldn't determine their worth then the game would never make a point of this. In fact it would make the opposite point and actually highlight the equivalency between Tobin and Alm. the problem is that Alm is stated to be "different" from Tobin and therefore better then Tobin by default and that difference is later revealed to the fact that alm is actually a royal. It just spits in the face of the message the game is trying to send.

It boils back to what I wrote:

Quote

So what do we do about it?

The game itself also delivers. I'll just use their default endings (assuming a everyone recruited and alive playthrough).

Quote

Tobin

As one of the most scrupulous knights in the One Kingdom’s Brotherhood, Tobin spent his life serving his friend King Alm. The king, in turn, placed a great deal of trust in Tobin, eventually granting him both a title and his own castle.

Gray

As a member of the One Kingdom’s Brotherhood of Knights, Gray worked diligently at restoring the continent. He applied himself equally to winning Clair’s heart, and beat Tobin out in the end. As he was heard to say, “Pick the guy with the big heart, not the pretty face.”

As we can see, they accepted Alm is out of their league... and yet they still strove to reach high. Even if they couldn't measure up to Alm, their own accomplishments are still very full of worth.

Which boils down back to the fact you and omega are very fixated on the worth of birthright, not unlike Ferdinand.

The thing is, what is the exact message the game is trying to send? Alm is still right. A commoner like Tobin can rise to great heights as much a noble like Ferdinand can fall from grace. They're equal in that sense. So what if the heights aren't the same? Dwelling too much on that is how things can get ugly.

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I feel you're trying to go circles around this. No matter how you look at this, Alm does NOT live up to his overall ideals. He tries to preach that the station of one's birth does not matter, that nobles and commoners are the same, when he doesn't create a system that removes that notion. Tobin getting a castle is an exception, not the status quo, because the system doesn't actually change. This isn't like Edelgard, who actually DOES work on removing the nobility system and allow opportunities to exist for the new generations. 

Alm doesn't do this. In the end, he keeps a system that sticks to the bloodlines, that nobility system still exists, where there remains a divide between the nobility and commoners. Tobin is a lucky commoner to earn a title, which does happen, but that doesn't dismantle the nobility system. 

And in the end, no matter how you try to dance around it, fiction or not, Alm's path, everything he does and accomplishes, they are less of his own merit, and more just a path that was already laid out for him. In this end, everything about his was because of the station of his birth, so his words that such stations don't matter fall on deaf ears. He tries to think that he is no different, but the game proves that no, he is different. 

It boils down if it really need a system change, instead of just tweak. The fact Tobin became a noble shows he still greatly restructured the system. Also, Tobin only may seem like an exception because it's the only one mentioned in the game. We don't know anything about the rest of his rule, or that of his descendants, if they were also instilled the same values Alm preached and thus did further changes on their own. Not every big change requires a revolution or big upheaval like Edelgard's.

Tobin wasn't lucky. He worked to earn that title. Which shows you can reform the system as much as throwing it away and putting a new one in place.

Well, as the phrase says, "It takes two to tango". You are fixated on his station of birth, as I told Ottservia, which is part of the problem. Alm still has merit. The path may already be made for him, but he still had to choose to go through it, work to overcome the obstacles and difficulties of said path, and to make it through to the very end. Alm could've still failed. He truly is no different in that aspect. It's different in that he had to face different hurdles, but his path is not hurdle free, which is what makes it similar to others.

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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As we can see, they accepted Alm is out of their league... and yet they still strove to reach high. Even if they couldn't measure up to Alm, their own accomplishments are still very full of worth.

Which boils down back to the fact you and omega are very fixated on the worth of birthright, not unlike Ferdinand.

The thing is, what is the exact message the game is trying to send? Alm is still right. A commoner like Tobin can rise to great heights as much a noble like Ferdinand can fall from grace. They're equal in that sense. So what if the heights aren't the same? Dwelling too much on that is how things can get ugly.

it's not that Alm isn't right because he is. It's the fact that story contradicts what he's saying. Let me lay it out for you like this. Why can't Tobin and Gray be on the same level as Alm? If birthright doesn't matter then they should be able to attain strength equal to one another if they all put in the same amount of work at least in some sense. Tobin should be able to accomplish all the things Alm is able to accomplish if he put in the same amount of work but he can't. Why? cause he's a commoner. He's not as special as Alm. No matter how hard he works, Tobin will never be able to reach the heights Alm is able to simply because of the station of his birth. A commoner cannot wield Falchion or the royal sword by the story's own lore and rules. Meaning anyone who isn't of royal blood is inferior by default which means Fernand and Berkut are right by the story's very own logic

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5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

it's not that Alm isn't right because he is. It's the fact that story contradicts what he's saying. Let me lay it out for you like this. Why can't Tobin and Gray be on the same level as Alm? If birthright doesn't matter then they should be able to attain strength equal to one another if they all put in the same amount of work at least in some sense. Tobin should be able to accomplish all the things Alm is able to accomplish if he put in the same amount of work but he can't. Why? cause he's a commoner. He's not as special as Alm. No matter how hard he works, Tobin will never be able to reach the heights Alm is able to simply because of the station of his birth. A commoner cannot wield Falchion or the royal sword by the story's own lore and rules. Meaning anyone who isn't of royal blood is inferior by default which means Fernand and Berkut are right by the story's very own logic

Is it possible that the message is more on the likes of your ability of growth isn't determined by your status? That being a commoner shouldn't stop you from rising higher than expected, or that being a noble doesn't mean you can't rise higher... or worse, actually drop. At least, I see it as the lesson being that your birthright doesn't impose limit on what you can do. You must be free to reach your max, even if your max isn't the same as someone else's. That shouldn't stop you from reaching your max anyway.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It boils down if it really need a system change, instead of just tweak. The fact Tobin became a noble shows he still greatly restructured the system. Also, Tobin only may seem like an exception because it's the only one mentioned in the game. We don't know anything about the rest of his rule, or that of his descendants, if they were also instilled the same values Alm preached and thus did further changes on their own. Not every big change requires a revolution or big upheaval like Edelgard's.

Tobin wasn't lucky. He worked to earn that title. Which shows you can reform the system as much as throwing it away and putting a new one in place.

Well, as the phrase says, "It takes two to tango". You are fixated on his station of birth, as I told Ottservia, which is part of the problem. Alm still has merit. The path may already be made for him, but he still had to choose to go through it, work to overcome the obstacles and difficulties of said path, and to make it through to the very end. Alm could've still failed. He truly is no different in that aspect. It's different in that he had to face different hurdles, but his path is not hurdle free, which is what makes it similar to others.

You aren't seeing the bigger problem.

Without removing the nobility system, the bloodline concept, that overall means that not anyone can be a noble. Once you become a noble, you now made a bloodline. But if you are a noble and bloodline, how are you expecting for new nobles to come? You can't, because new nobles cannot come willy nilly. And current nobles will remain in power because they are nobles. Their bloodline will be mandated to remain in place. 

So commoners, at best, can only reach a knight but not a lord. Because you can't make everyone a lord. 

Thus, opportunities to rise further don't exist. 

That's why Edelgard's system is important, because you don't hold positions by being noble. If you suck at your job, you WILL lose your position. 

That's why "tweaking" the system is not the same as actually fixing the problem. 

 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

You aren't seeing the bigger problem.

Without removing the nobility system, the bloodline concept, that overall means that not anyone can be a noble. Once you become a noble, you now made a bloodline. But if you are a noble and bloodline, how are you expecting for new nobles to come? You can't, because new nobles cannot come willy nilly. And current nobles will remain in power because they are nobles. Their bloodline will be mandated to remain in place. 

So commoners, at best, can only reach a knight but not a lord. Because you can't make everyone a lord. 

Thus, opportunities to rise further don't exist. 

That's why Edelgard's system is important, because you don't hold positions by being noble. If you suck at your job, you WILL lose your position. 

That's why "tweaking" the system is not the same as actually fixing the problem. 

 

A nobility system can still be subjugated to that.

Lima IV was deposed for being a bad ruler. Tobin became a noble for his merits. Again, we don't know what happens after the game is done. For all we know, Alm imposed a similar system since just like how he gave Tobin a title for his merits, it means the opposite can be true too. Title revocation for those that show they don't deserve it. How is it determined if its deserved or not? Well, by the very merit and hard work the title was earned in the first place.

You can tweak to fix. Nothing says they are exclusive.

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14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Is it possible that the message is more on the likes of your ability of growth isn't determined by your status? That being a commoner shouldn't stop you from rising higher than expected, or that being a noble doesn't mean you can't rise higher... or worse, actually drop. At least, I see it as the lesson being that your birthright doesn't impose limit on what you can do. You must be free to reach your max, even if your max isn't the same as someone else's. That shouldn't stop you from reaching your max anyway.

I mean that’s fine if you could find any evidence of that within the game’s text but as far as I can tell that isn’t the case. Like Alm, Clive, Fernand, and Berkut all argue on the front of whether or not the station of one’s birth matters to a man’s overall worth. Clive even states that a man’s worth is determined by his actions and ideals. Not exactly word for word but that’s essentially what he says. I’m willing to accept another interpretation should there be enough evidence for it

Edited by Ottservia

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

A nobility system can still be subjugated to that.

Lima IV was deposed for being a bad ruler. Tobin became a noble for his merits. Again, we don't know what happens after the game is done. For all we know, Alm imposed a similar system since just like how he gave Tobin a title for his merits, it means the opposite can be true too. Title revocation for those that show they don't deserve it. How is it determined if its deserved or not? Well, by the very merit and hard work the title was earned in the first place.

You can tweak to fix. Nothing says they are exclusive.

No, we DO. We know that a dynasty remains, the nobility remains, and Awakening even shows that the things didn't actually change. 

Alm did NOT actually change the system. He tweaked it where Tobin was the exception, but not the status quo. The only reason Tobin even COULD have the opportunity is cause Valentia was ravaged by war and the gods. Without it, Tobin would NEVER have been able to have the chance to prove himself. 

For all of Alm's words, he doesn't actually live up to the ideals. The game doesn't support it because in the end, he's the chosen one with the bloodline. The station of his birth is why everything happened as they did.

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20 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Clive even states that a man’s worth is determined by his actions and ideals. Not exactly word for word but that’s essentially what he says.

Doesn't that gives support to my interpretation? That a label shouldn't speak on behalf of their actual self, it what it seems to say there.

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, we DO. We know that a dynasty remains, the nobility remains, and Awakening even shows that the things didn't actually change. 

Alm did NOT actually change the system. He tweaked it where Tobin was the exception, but not the status quo. The only reason Tobin even COULD have the opportunity is cause Valentia was ravaged by war and the gods. Without it, Tobin would NEVER have been able to have the chance to prove himself. 

For all of Alm's words, he doesn't actually live up to the ideals. The game doesn't support it because in the end, he's the chosen one with the bloodline. The station of his birth is why everything happened as they did.

We don't. We are told so little about what happened after Alm and Celica united the continent. We don't know if Tobin was an exception or not. However, he is still the fact some change did happened. It's not that he could have the opportunity, but rather, the opportunity came to him. He still chose to take it and worked to not squander it. Some people seek the opportunity, some people have the opportunity come to them. Ultimately, it's how they use the opportunity what matters.

He still worked hard; as much as you like to ignore that and fixate on his status. Being the chosen one still means you have to work to prove it. His station of birth is only half the why. The other half is his hard work.

 

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33 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, we DO. We know that a dynasty remains, the nobility remains, and Awakening even shows that the things didn't actually change.

You sure about that?  Valm seems like it went way too far over to Rigel's side.

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15 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

We don't. We are told so little about what happened after Alm and Celica united the continent. We don't know if Tobin was an exception or not. However, he is still the fact some change did happened. It's not that he could have the opportunity, but rather, the opportunity came to him. He still chose to take it and worked to not squander it. Some people seek the opportunity, some people have the opportunity come to them. Ultimately, it's how they use the opportunity what matters.

He still worked hard; as much as you like to ignore that and fixate on his status. Being the chosen one still means you have to work to prove it. His station of birth is only half the why. The other half is his hard work.

No, it's still the case of "title" and "dynasty". It's still a nobility system. The status quo didn't change, but got tweaked. Trying to say that "oh, we don't actually know what happened and maybe he did change things" ignores that everything about the endings actually prove that nobility remains and there are no efforts to actually change things. Tobin proved himself in the chance for an opportunity, but he's the lucky one. That doesn't mean that other commoners will have the ability to become nobles in the future. 

Just now, eclipse said:

You sure about that?  Valm seems like it went way too far over to Rigel's side.

I mean, Say'ri still calls the other places "dynasts" which means bloodline concept remains.

Edited by omegaxis1

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5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, Say'ri still calls the other places "dynasts" which means bloodline concept remains.

We know that Walhart was king, and that he was strength-happy, and was willing to hire people that he thought were strong.  What, exactly, qualifies someone as a "dynast"?  At the very least, I'd refer to the Japanese script if you're going to make that kind of assumption.

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23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, it's still the case of "title" and "dynasty". It's still a nobility system. The status quo didn't change, but got tweaked. Trying to say that "oh, we don't actually know what happened and maybe he did change things" ignores that everything about the endings actually prove that nobility remains and there are no efforts to actually change things. Tobin proved himself in the chance for an opportunity, but he's the lucky one. That doesn't mean that other commoners will have the ability to become nobles in the future. 

So? A system like Edelgard's is still hierarchical. The labels get changed, but their function is the same. Tweaked in an apt word in this case. A noble having to prove worth through merit rather than birth is not that different from Edelgard's designs. They simply don't bother to change the name of the label. So the system is still being called nobility doesn't mean much when we know it did got changed, as shown with Tobin.

There's also no meaning that other commoners won't have the ability or opportunity either. However, Tobin's case gives credence that they might. After all, if it happened once already, it could happen again. It would be different if nothing had happened; but it did. Tobin would become an example to follow. A symbol commoners to rally to that they too can try. Not everyone may be as successful, but at least you have spread the message that your status of birth doesn't limit or define your potential, and because of that, you will have more people reaching their maximum. To be the best they can be.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

So? A system like Edelgard's is still hierarchical. The labels get changed, but their function is the same. Tweaked in an apt word in this case. A noble having to prove worth through merit rather than birth is not that different from Edelgard's designs. They simply don't bother to change the name of the label. So the system is still being called nobility doesn't mean much when we know it did got changed, as shown with Tobin.

There's also no meaning that other commoners won't have the ability or opportunity either. However, Tobin's case gives credence that they might. After all, if it happened once already, it could happen again. It would be different if nothing had happened; but it did. Tobin would become an example to follow. A symbol commoners to rally to that they too can try. Not everyone may be as successful, but at least you have spread the message that your status of birth doesn't limit or define your potential, and because of that, you will have more people reaching their maximum.

No, comparing Edelgard and Alm is apples and oranges. 

Alm keeps the nobility, but now just made Tobin rise in that status, but his system still has nobility in place where his successor is his child. You keep talking about Tobin, but Tobin is the exception, not the status quo. 

Edelgard actually worked on dismantling the entire system, focusing on the status quo, making the system no longer supports the nobility at all. And overall selects a successor not related to blood. Edelgard on the other hand goes for the status quo entirely. Even Constance remarks that despite how she wants House Nuvelle restored, Edelgard's system will not allow bloodline of the House to remain, so now she has to keep the House in status only by constantly proving in merit, because nobility changed to government officials that work for a paycheck. 

So no, Alm is nothing like Edelgard. Edelgard actually sticks to the ideals that blood does not define merit by working on the status quo, whereas Alm tries to preach, without actually challenging the system so that all commoners can rise in status. 

26 minutes ago, eclipse said:

We know that Walhart was king, and that he was strength-happy, and was willing to hire people that he thought were strong.  What, exactly, qualifies someone as a "dynast"?  At the very least, I'd refer to the Japanese script if you're going to make that kind of assumption.

By definition, dynast generally works with a hereditary ruler. And Walhart didn't exactly talk about making the strong rise in status, like Ashnard, but simply that religion is a poison that had to be removed. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

By definition, dynast generally works with a hereditary ruler. And Walhart didn't exactly talk about making the strong rise in status, like Ashnard, but simply that religion is a poison that had to be removed. 

 

Quote

Walhart
Who is the pinnacle of man, in body, mind, and spirit? Who is greater than the gods?

Walhart
You do your sister's legacy proud, Prince! But humanity already has a savior. A conqueror who broke stronger men than you when they refused to bow. Warriors of Valm! Ride with me now! Together we still stamp out this final pack of insurgents and unite the world!

Walhart
Look at you! Are you not ashamed? Your mind is filled with nothing but secondhand beliefs. You dance upon the stage of your gods like a mindless puppet! THAT is what I reject: being a slave to tradition, to obligation. The old ways. Damn the gods! Damn their fates and their destinies! I will have true freedom! And man who offers less is my enemy.

Sounds like someone who values strength more than blood to me.  Which means that something like established blood lines would clash with that.

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12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, comparing Edelgard and Alm is apples and oranges. 

Alm keeps the nobility, but now just made Tobin rise in that status, but his system still has nobility in place where his successor is his child. You keep talking about Tobin, but Tobin is the exception, not the status quo. 

Edelgard actually worked on dismantling the entire system, focusing on the status quo, making the system no longer supports the nobility at all. And overall selects a successor not related to blood. Edelgard on the other hand goes for the status quo entirely. Even Constance remarks that despite how she wants House Nuvelle restored, Edelgard's system will not allow bloodline of the House to remain, so now she has to keep the House in status only by constantly proving in merit, because nobility changed to government officials that work for a paycheck. 

So no, Alm is nothing like Edelgard. Edelgard actually sticks to the ideals that blood does not define merit by working on the status quo, whereas Alm tries to preach, without actually challenging the system so that all commoners can rise in status. 

Both are fruit, so they do have similarities. Don't discard them just because you prefer to focus on the differences.

That's the thing. We only know Tobin got the title. That's it. Nowhere is it stated his child is guarantee to keep the title just because  Tobin would be his/her father. Again, nothing says Tobin's an exception.

We know that because the game does tell us. SoV doesn't. There's not much room for hard conclusions there.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Sounds like someone who values strength more than blood to me.  Which means that something like established blood lines would clash with that.

I mean, sure, but my overall point was that the other nations of Valm were dynasts overall, so they were hereditary. Whether Walhart was going by Ashnard's form, it's not what I was going by in regards to Valentia's future. 

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Both are fruit, so they do have similarities. Don't discard them just because you prefer to focus on the differences.

That's the thing. We only know Tobin got the title. That's it. Nowhere is it stated his child is guarantee to keep the title just because  Tobin would be his/her father. Again, nothing says Tobin's an exception.

We know that because the game does tell us. SoV doesn't. There's not much room for hard conclusions there.

So in other words, despite knowing that the future of Valentia is showing that dynasts remain, you're trying to assume that Alm creates a meritocratic government based on Tobin? Just Tobin. Not once was it indicated that Alm is seeking to reform the government like Edelgard, but you're assuming that he does. But not once does he stick to that ideals, but you're basically "assuming" that he is. 

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I mean, sure, but my overall point was that the other nations of Valm were dynasts overall, so they were hereditary. Whether Walhart was going by Ashnard's form, it's not what I was going by in regards to Valentia's future.

Given Walhart's attitude, there's a good chance that nobility no longer exists when we meet him.  We don't really know what happens before that, because Awakening was pretty sloppy with its world-building.  Two thousand years is a long time, so for all we know, it was somewhat eroded by Alm, then some future ruler reinstated it, then it vanished, etc.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

So in other words, despite knowing that the future of Valentia is showing that dynasts remain, you're trying to assume that Alm creates a meritocratic government based on Tobin? Just Tobin. Not once was it indicated that Alm is seeking to reform the government like Edelgard, but you're assuming that he does. But not once does he stick to that ideals, but you're basically "assuming" that he is. 

A future that is two thousand years distant. Do remember Grima's appearance caused an upheaval in two continents. It's too much time to sat the same system was in place all the time. I don't state Alm definitely created one, just that he definitely placed the foundation for one to flourish down the line. Whether it lasted or not remains to be seen. Again, Tobin can be easily as much a foundation of a system reform than as an exception. The game doesn't tell us which is it, and there's no supplemental information telling us either.

Alm showed plenty, the problem is that you dismiss his preaching, so of course you don't think there was any indication. You're actively dismissing Alm's own words. You as much assume he doesn't as much as I'm assuming he did, in that case.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Given Walhart's attitude, there's a good chance that nobility no longer exists when we meet him.  We don't really know what happens before that, because Awakening was pretty sloppy with its world-building.  Two thousand years is a long time, so for all we know, it was somewhat eroded by Alm, then some future ruler reinstated it, then it vanished, etc.

Nobility systems cannot be removed that easily. As even Edelgard couldn't remove it immediately and needed to work hard after uniting the continent to reform everything to a meritocratic one. To remove the nobility, it requires time and effort. The flaw of Walhart is that his conquest only finished by the time that the 2nd arc of Awakening begins, meaning that Walhart didn't even start reforming anything, meaning that the bloodline concept is gone. 

Even Ashnard's reforms only are able to be shown after two decades had passed. 

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

A future that is two thousand years distant. Do remember Grima's appearance caused an upheaval in two continents. It's too much time to sat the same system was in place all the time. I don't state Alm definitely created one, just that he definitely placed the foundation for one to flourish down the line. Whether it lasted or not remains to be seen. Again, Tobin can be easily as much a foundation of a system reform than as an exception. The game doesn't tell us which is it, and there's no supplemental information telling us either.

Alm showed plenty, the problem is that you dismiss his preaching, so of course you don't think there was any indication. You're actively dismissing Alm's own words. You as much assume he doesn't as much as I'm assuming he did, in that case.

Because all you have going for you is Tobin. That's ALL you have. But Tobin earned a title and castle, but that doesn't mean that the nobility is gone, because a title only PROVES the nobility remains. Like I said, Tobin is an exception, not the status quo.

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Nobility systems cannot be removed that easily. As even Edelgard couldn't remove it immediately and needed to work hard after uniting the continent to reform everything to a meritocratic one. To remove the nobility, it requires time and effort. The flaw of Walhart is that his conquest only finished by the time that the 2nd arc of Awakening begins, meaning that Walhart didn't even start reforming anything, meaning that the bloodline concept is gone. 

Even Ashnard's reforms only are able to be shown after two decades had passed.

Rather than argue the point further, find a country that has two thousand years worth of history.  Read how their political systems has changed.  And then apply those possibilities to Valm.

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1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Because all you have going for you is Tobin. That's ALL you have. But Tobin earned a title and castle, but that doesn't mean that the nobility is gone, because a title only PROVES the nobility remains. Like I said, Tobin is an exception, not the status quo.

At least I have proof that change did happen. That already disproves your claim things remained the same. Nobility doesn't have to be gone. It only has to change from birth-basis to merit-basis, and Tobin proves the latter. Once again you ignore we don't know anything of the time between SoV and Grima's first appearance. Your claim of Tobin being an exception is as much unfounded as mine of becoming a new status quo... except the fact it happened at least proves there was change.

Tobin is only alone for the station he ascended to, but the Brotherhood of Knights that was also established also showed other commoners rose to prominence. Knighthood may be lesser nobility, but nobility still is. So that's more evidence of change. In contrast to Clive who was a noble who instead worked to show he still merited his station, hence also claiming a spot in the Knight Order.

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7 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Rather than argue the point further, find a country that has two thousand years worth of history.  Read how their political systems has changed.  And then apply those possibilities to Valm.

I mean, sure, but most of those changes occur after much violence and bloodshed for such a drastic change. 

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At least I have proof that change did happen. That already disproves your claim things remained the same. Nobility doesn't have to be gone. It only has to change from birth-basis to merit-basis, and Tobin proves the latter. Once again you ignore we don't know anything of the time between SoV and Grima's first appearance. Your claim of Tobin being an exception is as much unfounded as mine of becoming a new status quo... except the fact it happened at least proves there was change.

Tobin is only alone for the station he ascended to, but the Brotherhood of Knights that was also established also showed other commoners rose to prominence. Knighthood may be lesser nobility, but nobility still is. So that's more evidence of change. In contrast to Clive who was a noble who instead worked to show he still merited his station, hence also claiming a spot in the Knight Order.

No, if the nobility system remains, and bloodlines that define the nobility remain, then it's nothing like what you're saying. Nobility system is defined by bloodlines, not merit. Any new nobles will just uphold the new bloodline. 

Because nobility isn't meritocratic. You're trying to think that Tobin means meritocratic, but Tobin is basically like the other nobles in Fodlan, where some non-Crest bloodlines still get into the nobility. Tobin is that, an exception.

The knights would simply no longer be comprised of nobles anymore. That doesn't mean that commoners can be like Tobin and become nobles, because you can't make everyone nobles. Knights can work as a military, but that's not nobles.

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