Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 8/1/2020 at 6:40 AM, Ottservia said:

His character arc does not embody those flaws like he's supposed and that's really the main issue with this story. They don't showcase the flaws of Duma's ideals in the way it wants to.

Why would Alm embody the flaws of Duma's philosophy? He was raised in Zofia. Alm receiving a balanced upbringing and so having a balanced philosophy is no coincidence, it's exactly what Rudolf planned.

Meanwhile, Berkut was raised in Alm's place, and he burned his lover alive and annihilated her soul because his took her kindness for mockery. How's that for embodying the flaws of Duma's philosophy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 408
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Why would Alm embody the flaws of Duma's philosophy? He was raised in Zofia. Alm receiving a balanced upbringing and so having a balanced philosophy is no coincidence, it's exactly what Rudolf planned.

Meanwhile, Berkut was raised in Alm's place, and he burned his lover alive and annihilated her soul because his took her kindness for mockery. How's that for embodying the flaws of Duma's philosophy?

Well he was raised in Zofia by someone from Rigel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Why would Alm embody the flaws of Duma's philosophy? He was raised in Zofia. Alm receiving a balanced upbringing and so having a balanced philosophy is no coincidence, it's exactly what Rudolf planned.

I’m starting to get tired of hearing this argument cause it’s kind of a strawman. Like here’s the thing the only reason I’m so fixated on Alm being more ruthless and emboding Duma’s ideals is because that’s what him killing his own father is supposed to represent thematically.

Like what else is that moment supposed to symbolize if not a narrative/thematic punishment for Alm for not being able to hold himself back from going too far? Least as far as I can tell that’s how you’re supposed to interperet that plot point. Alm “stabs whatever is in front of him” which reaches its ideological extreme when he accidentally stabs his own father because he doesn’t have Celica’s kindness to hold back hid strength and ambition. It shows the flaws in Duma’s ideology by showing ehat happens when strength is taken too far. You end up hurting those who are supposed to be close to you.

like if someone can offer up a different and equally valid interpretation then I’m all ears.

Like I couldn’t give any less of a shit if it was “contrived” or not because thematically this story wants to showcase the flaws of Duma and Mila’s ideals through its duel protagonist setup but it fails at that with the way Alm’s character is written

Edited by Ottservia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’m starting to get tired of hearing this argument cause it’s kind of a strawman. Like here’s the thing the only reason I’m so fixated on Alm being more ruthless and emboding Duma’s ideals is because that’s what him killing his own father is supposed to represent thematically.

Like what else is that moment supposed to symbolize if not a narrative/thematic punishment for Alm for not being able to hold himself back from going too far? Least as far as I can tell that’s how you’re supposed to interperet that plot point.

The entire conflict is orchestrated by Rudolf, who says:

Mycen, I have to draw first blood. I must awaken the people to their potential—their own strength— and stop them from leaning so hard on the blessings and precepts of gods. I know the people will rise up against me for what I do. But as a father… nothing would make me prouder than for Alm to lead them.

If it symbolises anything, it's the destruction of the old authority by the new authority. Rigel/Duma's army is subjugated not by Zofia/Mila's army, but the people's army. 

Quote

Alm “stabs whatever is in front of him” which reaches its ideological extreme when he accidentally stabs his own father because he doesn’t have Celica’s kindness to hold back hid strength and ambition.

?

Clive: Alm, what are you doing? Snap out of it! Strike her down before she ends you!

Alm: No! I promised Luthier I would bring his sister home safe.

Clive: But Alm, you’re going to—

Alm: Everyone, stay clear of Delthea’s magic! And whatever you do, do NOT kill her! That’s an order!

?

Clive: Aren’t I? Just look at what you did in my stead. I criticized you roundly for diverting our army to save one person. But you did it anyway because you have something I do not—strength of heart. You understand what is precious and fight for it no matter the cost. 

?

Alm: No, it’s not like that at all, Celica! I just want to keep Zofia SAFE! Besides, there’s an heir. A princess of the royal family may have survived. If she turned up and fixed all this, I’d happily return to Ram. You could…come with me, you know? It’d be like old times.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

?

Clive: Alm, what are you doing? Snap out of it! Strike her down before she ends you!

Alm: No! I promised Luthier I would bring his sister home safe.

Clive: But Alm, you’re going to—

Alm: Everyone, stay clear of Delthea’s magic! And whatever you do, do NOT kill her! That’s an order!

?

Clive: Aren’t I? Just look at what you did in my stead. I criticized you roundly for diverting our army to save one person. But you did it anyway because you have something I do not—strength of heart. You understand what is precious and fight for it no matter the cost. 

?

Alm: No, it’s not like that at all, Celica! I just want to keep Zofia SAFE! Besides, there’s an heir. A princess of the royal family may have survived. If she turned up and fixed all this, I’d happily return to Ram. You could…come with me, you know? It’d be like old times.

Taken directly from when Alm reunites with Celica at Duma tower. Alm’s words not mine.

“Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!”
 

which that line doesn’t make any sense when you consider his characterization up to this point.

12 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

The entire conflict is orchestrated by Rudolf, who says:

Mycen, I have to draw first blood. I must awaken the people to their potential—their own strength— and stop them from leaning so hard on the blessings and precepts of gods. I know the people will rise up against me for what I do. But as a father… nothing would make me prouder than for Alm to lead them.

If it symbolises anything, it's the destruction of the old authority by the new authority. Rigel/Duma's army is subjugated not by Zofia/Mila's army, but the people's army. 

An interesting point but I just don’t think there’s enough evidence in the narrative to support such a claim. I mean beyond Alm killing his dad my claim has the line I quoted above, Duma’s final words, and even how Alm is characterized in the original Gaiden. If there is any evidence that at all lends credence to my claims that Alm was supposed to represent the flaws Duma’s ideals look no further than the original source material

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

“Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!”

Clearly contradicts when he rescued Delthea, have you never considered that don't need to take it literally?

Quote

An interesting point but I just don’t think there’s enough evidence in the narrative to support such a claim.

Rudolf explicitly spelling out his purpose isn't clear enough?

Quote

Duma’s final words

Duma: So be it, Alm. I leave Valentia’s future to you, her hero. Take from us what lessons you will and shape her into a land to remember. Make her strong like Duma, and fill her with Mila’s love. Let our grave mistakes be warnings of where not to tread as you lead her forth. Now, we shall sleep. And never shall you disturb our slumber.

If this is supposed to suggest that Celica's wisdom is needed, surely it would mention her?

Quote

and even how Alm is characterized in the original Gaiden.

My line - pretty much the same

What! That’s mean, Cellica. I don’t have those kinds of ambitions.
I just want to protect the people of Sofia, that’s all.
Besides, it seems that the royal family of Sofia’s only remaining princess is still alive, so I’m planning to search for her.
As soon as I find that princess, I’m returning to the village.

Your line - the bolded doesn't even exist

That’s enough. I understand.
At any rate — Cellica! Right now, what matters is escaping!!!
I’m definitely going to save you!
I’ll definitely save you, so believe in me.
Go for it, Cellica!!

 

Quote

If there is any evidence that at all lends credence to my claims that Alm was supposed to represent the flaws Duma’s ideals look no further than the original source material

There is none, so that's true.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Clearly contradicts when he rescued Delthea, have you never considered that don't need to take it literally?

I mean it’s still a contradiction regardless.

 

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

My line - pretty much the same

What! That’s mean, Cellica. I don’t have those kinds of ambitions.
I just want to protect the people of Sofia, that’s all.
Besides, it seems that the royal family of Sofia’s only remaining princess is still alive, so I’m planning to search for her.
As soon as I find that princess, I’m returning to the village.

Your line - the bolded doesn't even exist

That’s enough. I understand.
At any rate — Cellica! Right now, what matters is escaping!!!
I’m definitely going to save you!
I’ll definitely save you, so believe in me.
Go for it, Cellica!!

 

Fair enough I suppose

 

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Duma: So be it, Alm. I leave Valentia’s future to you, her hero. Take from us what lessons you will and shape her into a land to remember. Make her strong like Duma, and fill her with Mila’s love. Let our grave mistakes be warnings of where not to tread as you lead her forth. Now, we shall sleep. And never shall you disturb our slumber.

If this is supposed to suggest that Celica's wisdom is needed, surely it would mention her?

 

Note when he says “Mila’s love” as in her kindness and compassion for life as represented through Celica.

14 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Rudolf explicitly spelling out his purpose isn't clear enough?

 

No it’s clear. I’m just saying there aren’t enough examples of that theme being showcased in the narrative for me to believe that that’s what the intent was.

 

Honestly the more this discussion goes on the more I’ve come to realize that SoV is just a thematic mess cause of all the contradictory interpretations of its narrative people are putting out there.

Edited by Ottservia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Ottservia said:
I mean it’s still a contradiction regardless.

It's not a contradiction if you consider Alm is saying he relies on Celica for emotional support. There's a difference between a inconsistent character and an interpretation of a consistent character.

Quote

Note when he says “Mila’s love” as in her kindness and compassion for life as represented through Celica.

But it does not suggest that Alm has no capacity for showing kindness and compassion for life, since there's no evidence for that and significant evidence (e.g. rescuing Delthea) against it.

Quote
 

No it’s clear. I’m just saying there aren’t enough examples of that theme being showcased in the narrative for me to believe that that’s what the intent was.

Mycen: Please remain calm, Alm. *sigh* Let me explain. …Best I start at the very beginning. As you well know, Valentia has always been divided north from south— split between the two gods, Mila and Duma. But their involvement with mankind eventually grew too deep. When madness takes a god, man is lost. And where gods meet ruin, men die too. That is the plight Valentia now faces.

Alm: You’re saying the gods are…dying?

Mycen: I fear so. Rudolf was among the first to understand the signs. He saw Duma’s growing madness and knew it for a harbinger of ruin. But then you were born, Alm.

Alm: What does that have to do with any of this?

Mycen: You bore the Brand—sign of the hero who would rise to save Valentia. Hearing that prophecy, Rudolf knew you must be kept hidden from the Faithful. He concealed the news of your birth, and entrusted you to me in Zofia. I will never forget the pain on his face when he placed you in my arms…

Alm: ……

Mycen: That day marked a change in him. He donned the mantle of one who would destroy the old world order— one who’d free men to live by their own power, even if they hated him for it. He knew such heresy would bring forth those who wished for his death. So for that death to come at the hand of his beloved son was…a mercy. He told me himself that he could imagine no more peaceful end.

Alm: And what of my peace?!

Mycen: This is not the time for mourning or self-pity, boy. Rudolf’s purpose now falls to you. The true foe you must defeat is Duma. As well as the zealots tainted by his madness who seek control of Valentia: Jedah and his Duma Faithful. If you do not hurry, Celica’s life will also be in peril.

Alm: Oh, gods. Celica! She set out in search of Duma in order to save Mila.

Mycen: A passage beneath this castle leads to the Temple of Duma. Go, Alm. Go and finish this. Return the mad god Duma to the darkness from whence he came.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

It's not a contradiction if you consider Alm is saying he relies on Celica for emotional support.

 

In what fucking universe does Alm need Celica for support of any kind?! Apologies for being blunt but as far as I can tell he doesn’t need her for anything like at all. If the point of the narrative is that he relies on Celica for emotional support then clearly they did a very poor job of portraying that because aside from him killing his father there aren’t msny instances of being overly distraught to the point of needing Celica’s emotional support. There are plenty of instances in Celica’s story where she was completely lost without him and had to struggle on anyway. There’s just not enough balance in that regard.

11 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

But it does not suggest that Alm has no capacity for showing kindness and compassion for life, since there's no evidence for that and significant evidence (e.g. rescuing Delthea) against it.

i never said it didn’t just that his arc reflects more do one and not the other. This story definitely pushes to showcase the flaws in Duma and Mila’s ideals that much cannot be denied. It does a good job of showing the flaws of mila’s but not duma’s.

 

17 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Mycen: Please remain calm, Alm. *sigh* Let me explain. …Best I start at the very beginning. As you well know, Valentia has always been divided north from south— split between the two gods, Mila and Duma. But their involvement with mankind eventually grew too deep. When madness takes a god, man is lost. And where gods meet ruin, men die too. That is the plight Valentia now faces.

Alm: You’re saying the gods are…dying?

Mycen: I fear so. Rudolf was among the first to understand the signs. He saw Duma’s growing madness and knew it for a harbinger of ruin. But then you were born, Alm.

Alm: What does that have to do with any of this?

Mycen: You bore the Brand—sign of the hero who would rise to save Valentia. Hearing that prophecy, Rudolf knew you must be kept hidden from the Faithful. He concealed the news of your birth, and entrusted you to me in Zofia. I will never forget the pain on his face when he placed you in my arms…

Alm: ……

Mycen: That day marked a change in him. He donned the mantle of one who would destroy the old world order— one who’d free men to live by their own power, even if they hated him for it. He knew such heresy would bring forth those who wished for his death. So for that death to come at the hand of his beloved son was…a mercy. He told me himself that he could imagine no more peaceful end.

Alm: And what of my peace?!

Mycen: This is not the time for mourning or self-pity, boy. Rudolf’s purpose now falls to you. The true foe you must defeat is Duma. As well as the zealots tainted by his madness who seek control of Valentia: Jedah and his Duma Faithful. If you do not hurry, Celica’s life will also be in peril.

Alm: Oh, gods. Celica! She set out in search of Duma in order to save Mila.

Mycen: A passage beneath this castle leads to the Temple of Duma. Go, Alm. Go and finish this. Return the mad god Duma to the darkness from whence he came.

I won’t deny that this is a major aspect of the narrative but it’s definitely not the core theme well it kinda is but like I still stand hy my interpretation of Alm killing Rudolf as it is supposed to be a big moment in his character arc and sufficiently tragic so it is meant to be a form of narrative punishment for him.

10 minutes ago, Baldrick said:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Ottservia said:
 

In what fucking universe does Alm need Celica for support of any kind?! 

In the universe where he's in love with her, and has recently lost multiple family members. Consider his reaction to Berkut's death.

 

Just now, Ottservia said:

There’s just not enough balance in that regard. .... 

It does a good job of showing the flaws of mila’s but not duma’s.

You never responded to my point on Berkut.

 

Just now, Ottservia said:

I won’t deny that this is a major aspect of the narrative but it’s definitely not the core theme

I would say it is -

Just now, Ottservia said:

well it kinda is

...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't the story be about abandoning the old ideals while exhibiting them via its protagonists? That at least would be the most sensible choice going into the project.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I’m starting to get tired of hearing this argument cause it’s kind of a strawman. Like here’s the thing the only reason I’m so fixated on Alm being more ruthless and emboding Duma’s ideals is because that’s what him killing his own father is supposed to represent thematically.

Like what else is that moment supposed to symbolize if not a narrative/thematic punishment for Alm for not being able to hold himself back from going too far? Least as far as I can tell that’s how you’re supposed to interperet that plot point. Alm “stabs whatever is in front of him” which reaches its ideological extreme when he accidentally stabs his own father because he doesn’t have Celica’s kindness to hold back hid strength and ambition. It shows the flaws in Duma’s ideology by showing ehat happens when strength is taken too far. You end up hurting those who are supposed to be close to you.

like if someone can offer up a different and equally valid interpretation then I’m all ears.

Like I couldn’t give any less of a shit if it was “contrived” or not because thematically this story wants to showcase the flaws of Duma and Mila’s ideals through its duel protagonist setup but it fails at that with the way Alm’s character is written

They literally don't though. Alm showcases Duma's ideals and strength with Celica showcasing Mila's ideals and compassion.

Celica doesn't represent Mila's flaws. She does not pamper people until others are lazy and dependent on Celica. She doesn't sink into depravity either. Celica actively takes action and is against just sitting still and whining that Mila isn't providing for them like many Zofians do. She brings the best out of people with her compassion and make people want to work and do stuff for her. She even doesn't like how Lima sunk into depravity and wished she could've been there to better him.

The general Zofians and Rigelians display the flaws and mistakes of Duma and Mila while Alm and Celica show the best out of Mila and Duma.

Where did this ridiculous headcanon about "Alm and Celica representing god flaws" even COME from? Alm and Celica are stated through Duma to represent certain aspects of them not everything. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aw yeah, activity on this thread has flared up again.

I once again arrive to offer my unneeded/unasked for take.

If we’re trying to interpret the story in a way that doesn’t involve Alm and Celica representing their patron god, I suppose I’ll call back to a point I made earlier on Alm’s flaw being his straightforwardness and his habit of fighting to help people. Perhaps I can refine it a little bit.

Alm spends the story playing the hero, intentionally or not. He fights to help people- it’s all he really knows and the main worth he ascribes to himself. This helps him multiple times through the story- he saves people like Delthea, Silque, Mathilda, Clair... actually there’s a massive list. It also screws him up a couple times- Nuibaba’s abode and how he nearly leads the deliverance to their deaths is the obvious one. The other one is how Clive doubts him all throughout Act 3- his willingness to seemingly throw away his army to save one village girl is a sticking point between them until that plot line resolves. But both of these times Alm overcomes it- Nuibaba gets her butt kicked, and Clive begins to view Alm’s “recklessness” as “strength of heart”. 
 

With Rudolf things play out differently. Alm pushes forward and fights at Rigel Castle, same as always. He fights to help free people from an empire that he and the others view as tyrannical. But in the end, not only does he have to deal with the pain of killing his father, he’s suddenly the ruler of an empire that spans half the continent. He’s finally been punished for his nature, and he’s forced to grow beyond just being a warrior if he’s to have any hope of successfully ruling a nation in times of peace. This plays into the need for Celica as a character- her willingness and ability to find solutions other than fighting is the perfect counterbalance to Alm and his over reliance on strength.

OK, so let’s check the boxes:

This interpretation circumvents the problem with the game not making Alm ruthless enough, as ruthlessness isn’t Alm’s core issue.

It punishes Alm for killing Rudolf.

It provides an alternative explanation that doesn’t involve Alm and Celica acting as microcosms of their respective gods. (Technically I believe this could work either way, depending on if you place more emphasis on Alm killing a loved one or inheriting an empire.)

And it allows Celica to still have thematic significance to the story.

Ok. I think that’s everything but it probably isn’t. Anyway, feel free to disagree and tell me why I’m wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Seazas said:

They literally don't though. Alm showcases Duma's ideals and strength with Celica showcasing Mila's ideals and compassion.

Celica doesn't represent Mila's flaws. She does not pamper people until others are lazy and dependent on Celica. She doesn't sink into depravity either. Celica actively takes action and is against just sitting still and whining that Mila isn't providing for them like many Zofians do. She brings the best out of people with her compassion and make people want to work and do stuff for her. She even doesn't like how Lima sunk into depravity and wished she could've been there to better him.

That is true, but despite how capable she is, she is convinced that finding Mila is the only solution to the conflict. To the point that when she sees Mila sealed by the Falchion, she gives up her soul to Jedah out of desperation. While she's not decadent like Lima or entitled like the Zofians, she still has an unhealthy dependence on Mila that causes her to make a poor decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

That is true, but despite how capable she is, she is convinced that finding Mila is the only solution to the conflict. To the point that when she sees Mila sealed by the Falchion, she gives up her soul to Jedah out of desperation. While she's not decadent like Lima or entitled like the Zofians, she still has an unhealthy dependence on Mila that causes her to make a poor decision.

Which is a flaw of her character and upbringing. Doesn't mean she intentionally represents Mila's flaws. Jedah and many other Rigelians are dependent on Duma too. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

They literally don't though. Alm showcases Duma's ideals and strength with Celica showcasing Mila's ideals and compassion.

Celica doesn't represent Mila's flaws. She does not pamper people until others are lazy and dependent on Celica. She doesn't sink into depravity either. Celica actively takes action and is against just sitting still and whining that Mila isn't providing for them like many Zofians do. She brings the best out of people with her compassion and make people want to work and do stuff for her. She even doesn't like how Lima sunk into depravity and wished she could've been there to better him.

The general Zofians and Rigelians display the flaws and mistakes of Duma and Mila while Alm and Celica show the best out of Mila and Duma.

Where did this ridiculous headcanon about "Alm and Celica representing god flaws" even COME from? Alm and Celica are stated through Duma to represent certain aspects of them not everything. 

Well refer to that previous quote from Alm where he literally says he needs Celica's wisdom by her side to stop him just solving everything by stabbing what's in front of him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well refer to that previous quote from Alm where he literally says he needs Celica's wisdom by her side to stop him just solving everything by stabbing what's in front of him.

That doesn't mean Alm and Celica completely represent their flaws.  The Zofians and Rigelians in this game do that much more effectively while the game only confirms and showcases Alm and Celica having their ideals + Alm having Duma's strength and Celica having Mila's compassion.

Edited by Seazas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

That doesn't mean Alm and Celica completely represent their flaws.  The Zofians and Rigelians in this game do that much more effectively while the game only confirms and showcases Alm and Celica having their ideals + Alm having Duma's strength and Celica having Mila's compassion.

Didn't say it does. The question was why people draw that conclusion from the game. If you don't, that's cool, not going to try and convince you, I see a lot of others have tried already. But it's not a matter of the dual protagonist exhibiting the dual themes of the game in a yin yang type fashion that need to come together is a conclusion that comes absolutely out of nowhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Didn't say it does. The question was why people draw that conclusion from the game. If you don't, that's cool, not going to try and convince you, I see a lot of others have tried already. But it's not a matter of the dual protagonist exhibiting the dual themes of the game in a yin yang type fashion that need to come together is a conclusion that comes absolutely out of nowhere.

People let their interpretations and headcanons get way out of hand. Alm isn't bad over a made up theme that was never stated or even implied in the game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

You never responded to my point on Berkut.

Because Berkut is a fine character but a terrible villain. The thing about Berkut is that he and Alm are supposed to goil each other but I don’t think it really works because Alm isn’t at all like Berkut they don’t have similar flaws or upbringing. There’s very little similarities between the two to highlight their differences which is what a foil relationship is supposed to do. Again I compare it to Joker and Akechi in vanilla P5. There’s just not enough reason for me to believe that these two are supposed to foils/rivals because they really aren’t. It just kinda falls flat if you ask me.

 

7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

In the universe where he's in love with her, and has recently lost multiple family members. Consider his reaction to Berkut's death.

That it is only one moment. It needs to happen more before that point if you want it to work because by that point it’s a little late. Better late than never but we could’ve used more of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

People let their interpretations and headcanons get way out of hand. Alm isn't bad over a made up theme that was never stated or even implied in the game. 

That exact same comment can be levied at you. What you take from the story is no more legitimate than what anyone else does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

People let their interpretations and headcanons get way out of hand. Alm isn't bad over a made up theme that was never stated or even implied in the game. 

“Made up theme” yeah I wouldn’t be making these claims if I felt there wasn’t enough evidence within the text itself to support it but there is enough evidence within the narrative to support my claims so I’m gonna stick by it.

Fact is Celica’s character arc is supposed to showcase the flaws of how being too kind to one’s nation leads them to over-dependencey and not being able to think or act for themselves. The core driving force behind Celica’s character arc is that she truly believes that getting Mila back will just automatically fix everything. This over dependence of Mila drives her to desperation and causes her to rely on someone she shouldn’t be relying on(Jedah) where she is narratively punished by having her soul stolen. The rest of Zofia and her father represent the depravity portion as you outlined. Celica’s entire character represents both the good and bad of Mila’s philosophy. The good because she’s compassionate and kind and willing to help others which allows her gain allies and make people trust her. The bad in that without the strength and resolve to fight herself she’s quickly lost without her goddess and that desperation leads her to make rash and reckless decisions that ultimately get her killed. The story isn’t exactly subtle about this Y’know 

Edited by Ottservia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly really like Alm in SoV.

I don't mind him being more reflective of Zofia's virtues that Rigel's because, well, of course he is: that's where he was raised.  They sent him to Zofia to keep him away from the Duma Faithful, who have clearly descended into what can charitably be described as something that rhymes with "clucking bankers".  Add that to Rigel's utterly poisonous obsession with power and you're looking at a culture that, bluntly, is kinda screwed from the get-go.  I think Rigel wanted Alm to grow up into someone who would actually care about people, not someone who was obsessed with gaining strength above all else, and that's why I like this turn of events.  We see pretty clearly in Berkut what Alm could have become had he stayed, and clearly that's not someone with his head screwed on properly.  Which, granted, definitely raises a lot of questions in and of itself...

I fully concede that he's not the best lord and I totally get why people might not dig him but I think he's a'ight.

Edited by Samven
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That exact same comment can be levied at you. What you take from the story is no more legitimate than what anyone else does.

But my point about what Alm and Celica take is actually from the game. What Duma says at endgame to Alm and Celica after you beat him show what they represent. There's also Am's entire scene about believing man can stand without gods which was commonly Duma's ideal but ok-

35 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

“Made up theme” yeah I wouldn’t be making these claims if I felt there wasn’t enough evidence within the text itself to support it but there is enough evidence within the narrative to support my claims so I’m gonna stick by it.

Fact is Celica’s character arc is supposed to showcase the flaws of how being too kind to one’s nation leads them to over-dependencey and not being able to think or act for themselves. The core driving force behind Celica’s character arc is that she truly believes that getting Mila back will just automatically fix everything. This over dependence of Mila drives her to desperation and causes her to rely on someone she shouldn’t be relying on(Jedah) where she is narratively punished by having her soul stolen. The rest of Zofia and her father represent the depravity portion as you outlined. Celica’s entire character represents both the good and bad of Mila’s philosophy. The good because she’s compassionate and kind and willing to help others which allows her gain allies and make people trust her. The bad in that without the strength and resolve to fight herself she’s quickly lost without her goddess and that desperation leads her to make rash and reckless decisions that ultimately get her killed. The story isn’t exactly subtle about this Y’know 

Celica does fight though. She doesn't sit and pray for Mila for everything. She literally swashbuckled pirates that threatened her people and happily went into Rigel to locate Mila. She has a dependency on Mila but this isn't a Mila flaw in some overall theme to "showcase Mila's bad" when Zofians and Lima already do that. It could easily be an individual flaw in an arc or a purposeful way to make Celica mirror Jedah and make the point of Celica's capture in Gaiden make more sense. It doesn't need to be some obligated "Alm MUST showcase Duma's bad or it's unfair and he's ineffective" when he's raised in Zofia and none of his upbringing could realistically align with Duma.

Berkut's one of the few Rigelians that succeed in showcasing Duma's flaw and mistakes. Especially with the devs confirming he foils Alm.

Alm represents Duma's strength and Celica represents Mila's compassion. That's all there is to it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Celica does fight though. She doesn't sit and pray for Mila for everything. She literally swashbuckled pirates that threatened her people and happily went into Rigel to locate Mila.

Yeah and she’s rewarded for it because in those instances she embodies both Duma and Mila just like how Alm is rewarded for protecting and saving others because in those instances he embodies the strength of both ideals which is the entire point of that narrative. 

 

5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

She has a dependency on Mila but this isn't a Mila flaw in some overall theme to "showcase Mila's bad" when Zofians and Lima already do that. It could easily be an individual flaw in an arc or a purposeful way to make Celica mirror Jedah and make the point of Celica's capture in Gaiden make more sense.

Can’t it be both? Why can’t it both? It is both. It’s supposed to allow her to foil Jedah AND showcase the flaws in Mila’s ideals because they both showcase the flaws in Mila’s ideals because they’re too reliant on their god to fix everything which is a flaw in Mila’s ideals that the narrative very much so emphasizes. The difference between the two is that Celica is able to break away from her overreliance on Mila and rely on her own and Alm’s strength and resolve to push through hardship. In a way Duma is killed by his own ideals of strength in that humans will eventually grow strong enough to surpass the need of a god. The same goes with Mila. She worries too much about her children where she fails to allow them to grow and surpass the need for her one day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...