Isn't Gordon just kinda good in FE 3 Book 2?

[Whitfield1999]

I don't think people give gordon enough credit it Fe3 book 2 and here is my reasoning.

1. Gordon joins your army at level 5 meaning he just needs 5 more levels to use the Orions bolt you get at chapter 7.
2. In-between chapter 1-7 are a lot of Draco knights that a lot of your army has trouble dealing with (the exception being mages and archers). even if you only use gordon for these enemies he should still easily get to level 10 before chapter 7
3. the snipers class bonus's are absolutely insane giving plus 5 in both skill and speed, 2 strength and defense, 3 res, and best of all 2 mov.
4. snipers are generalists. generally being useful on a larger portion of maps then horsemen.
5. by the time gordon promotes, his stats should straight up be better (unless he gets stat screwed) than George who you also get in chapter 7. having 2 partia users is a very useful thing.

I feel like archers get a deservingly bad rap since in most games since they do suck. but in Fe3, were javelins kinda sucks. having archers are very useful. but what do you guys think?

Edited May 18, 2020 by Whitfield1999

[X-Naut]

All true, plus the starpshere shards can neutralize his low-ish growths, although his bases are serviceable enough on their own.

[Ertrick36]

I think in terms of archers he's actually decently respected.  Some say Ryan is better, but that's only if he actually gets good growths - it's always a gamble in earlier FE games to rely on a growth unit.  Also, we're talking about Book 2, the game where you can literally just shove a star fragment in someone's pocket to give them better growths.  In such a game I think going for the unit that already has decent stats is preferable to the one who has baby stats.  Not to mention Gordon's superb Weapon level base and growth rate, so he's very likely gonna be able to use every single bow in the game.

I don't really think there's an archer that's better than Gordon in Book 2, but people favor Hunters over archers due to their access to horses.  Even with the way the game balances mounted units, people find ways around the limitations.  Gordon gets a head start over Kashim (the only good Hunter in Book 2) though, and you do basically need to feed him a Manual to enable him to use Partia.  Kashim's main advantage over Gordon and Ryan is his substantially higher Strength growth and decent Strength base stat, and of course the natural benefits of the Hunter class over the Archer class (better base movement and a promotion into a horse-mounted class).

Overall Gordon is a decent unit for an archer in Book 2.  With Star Shards, one can help him get better, so he might as well be a Ryan with better bases.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Ertrick36

[Shuuda]

But the five base move and the extra three they lose traversing forests is agonising. It stands out all the worse in a game that gives you three pegasus knights and a paladin all back to back. Once the two dracoknight chapters have been dealt with I find it hard to justify Gordin over most other units I'll have at that point.

"Good for an archer" isn't good enough in when the rest of the competition is as fierce as it is in Book II.

To his credit, I'd say Gordin is better in the remake, where Steel Bow chip is more valuable on the higher difficulties and its harder hitting enemies.

[Whitfield1999]

2 hours ago, Shuuda said:

But the five base move and the extra three they lose traversing forests is agonising. It stands out all the worse in a game that gives you three pegasus knights and a paladin all back to back. Once the two dracoknight chapters have been dealt with I find it hard to justify Gordin over most other units I'll have at that point.

"Good for an archer" isn't good enough in when the rest of the competition is as fierce as it is in Book II.

To his credit, I'd say Gordin is better in the remake, where Steel Bow chip is more valuable on the higher difficulties and its harder hitting enemies.

I'd agree under normal circumstances, but you really don't have to use him much before the movement problem is fixed up. and when he is at his lowest move really all the xp kinda of falls in his lap (chapter 3 Gordon doesn't have to move at all to see combat). after the 2 dracoknight chapters are over he should easily be level 10 by then and all you have to do is promote him chapter 7 and boom, you got a 7 move sniper on your hand. I don't see how the 3 pegasus knights and paladins negate a snipers niche in indoor maps and giving powerful accurate 2 range.

Also there was this Palla emblem 0% growths LTC where they promoted gordin in chapter 7. I tried to link it in here but I couldn't for some reason lol, but you can find it on youtube.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Whitfield1999
grammer + Something I wanted to add in

[X-Naut]

3 hours ago, Shuuda said:

But the five base move and the extra three they lose traversing forests is agonising. It stands out all the worse in a game that gives you three pegasus knights and a paladin all back to back. Once the two dracoknight chapters have been dealt with I find it hard to justify Gordin over most other units I'll have at that point.

"Good for an archer" isn't good enough in when the rest of the competition is as fierce as it is in Book II.

To his credit, I'd say Gordin is better in the remake, where Steel Bow chip is more valuable on the higher difficulties and its harder hitting enemies.

His movement isn't that big a problem, the worst chapter for him is 5 (7 is oppressive to all grounded units).

• Chapter 1 has the starting bandits and a conga line of thief reinforcements from the cave.
• Send him up the right in Chapter 2 (from the rightmost deployment) and he can take the right Draco that Arran lures on turn 2. From there he's not far off from the boss, 1-3 turns depending on how and when you pull him.
• Chapter 3 is anywhere from three to six Dracos easy depending on whether you want to share with Linde or another archer.
• Chapter 4 has the bandits around the start.
• Send him right in Chapter 6 and he can take the treasure room mage, the two bishops and maybe the upper-right mage pretty freely.

None of these run into "fierce competition" because the Kaga's Pets will be across the map doing high movement things.

[𝐅𝐞𝐧𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐥]

12 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

I feel like archers get a deservingly bad rap since in most games since they do suck. but in Fe3, were javelins kinda sucks. having archers are very useful. but what do you guys think?

it's not that they suck in most games, because the class has always worked as intended, as long as you played it properly( for example: putting an archer against an armored unit is not playing as intended, because that would be a job for either mages, or lords/mercenaries with armorbreaker swords ).

the downside of archers is that while they always had the advantage over all flying units, they never had the ability to counter melee attacks, therefore many people prefer to rely on mages as ranged units since they can deal with almost all kinds of units, and they also have access to Resire tomes wich allows them to heal up while dealing damage.

Book 2 is also quite tricky to deal with due to early difficulty spikes compared to Book 1, where the overall difficulty is more linear.

besides, while in Book 1 promotions feel kind of "optional", in Book 2 they become a "must to have as soon as possible".

it can all be resumed in something like "here's book 1. play it and learn from it. once you're done, here's book 2. use all you've learned before. good luck".

 

anyway, in Gordon's case, he can be good as much as George if he gets trained with dedicated star shards.

from my last run of FE3, i remember using mostly George, Gordon and Kashim when there was many flying enemy units on a map, although i deployed Kashim mainly on maps with large open fields due to movement range from horseback promotion gain.

if you play tactical, getting Orion bolts for everyone isn't an issue either, because by the end of the game you'll have enough decent units able to be promoted( and perhaps even some spare bolts ).

Edited May 18, 2020 by Fenreir

[Baldrick]

“Just kinda good” is fairly accurate, the problem is there are so many great units in Book 2. Gordon certainly isn’t unusable, but he doesn’t offer anything over George.

Linde should have dibs on the dracoknight kills in the early game. She hits Res and gains staves on promotion, so getting her up and running is more important. Kashim is the best user of the first Orion Bolt. He has higher strength base, growth and level than Gordon, and complements George better. He has trouble using Partia, but IMO you don’t really need a second Partia user anyway.

[Whitfield1999]

6 hours ago, Baldrick said:

“Just kinda good” is fairly accurate, the problem is there are so many great units in Book 2. Gordon certainly isn’t unusable, but he doesn’t offer anything over George.

Linde should have dibs on the dracoknight kills in the early game. She hits Res and gains staves on promotion, so getting her up and running is more important. Kashim is the best user of the first Orion Bolt. He has higher strength base, growth and level than Gordon, and complements George better. He has trouble using Partia, but IMO you don’t really need a second Partia user anyway.

I disagree. I think the sniper class is so useful that having 2 snipers is warranted, and if you don't want 2 snipers his stats should be better in every way then George assuming you're playing with growths. Also don't think it's worth it for kashim to get the orions bolt until you get the one in chapter 12. If you think about it after chapter 8 what is there? a desert map, then an indoor map, then another desert map, then a map that starts indoors with a bunch of flying enemies at the beginning where a high move bow user isn't really needed. the extra move on a bow user isn't really needed yet at that point and since the promotion that kashim gets doesn't help him much in the stat department, I think that Orions bolt in chapter 12 better suits him since after that point you can really benefit having a horseman. 

feeding those dracos to Linde do help, it's very easy to get her up in levels anyways so wasting time to feed every single one to her never felt like a priority for me. Gordon gets to level 10 extremely easily promoting in chapter 7 even in ltc's so he might not even need those Draco knights to promote in chapter 7 if you're playing normally.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Whitfield1999

[Whitfield1999]

I officially stan gordon

[Baldrick]

23 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

 I think the sniper class is so useful that having 2 snipers is warranted,

The majority of fliers are encountered on outdoor maps. For indoor maps, heroes are better as a stat stick, sages are better for ranged combat and utility, and you will also often want a thief/Feena/other utility units. In practice, even some of the mounted units are worth deploying  indoors because their stats are so good. The main draw of snipers is Partia, and with its power and durability, you don’t need multiple users.

23 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

and if you don't want 2 snipers his stats should be better in every way then George assuming you're playing with growths.

at 10/1, Gordon has 0.5 strength, 2.5 skill and 3 luck over George, in exchange for 3 HP, 0.5 speed, 1.5 def and 2.8 res. When you consider the exp investment, it’s George’s win.

23 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

Also don't think it's worth it for kashim to get the orions bolt until you get the one in chapter 12. If you think about it after chapter 8 what is there? a desert map, then an indoor map, then another desert map, then a map that starts indoors with a bunch of flying enemies at the beginning where a high move bow user isn't really needed.
 

Snipers aren’t great on desert maps either, and they don’t provide much on Marich’s join map. Enough of chapter 12 is outdoors to justify bringing a horseman over a second sniper.

 

23 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

feeding those dracos to Linde do help, it's very easy to get her up in levels anyways so wasting time to feed every single one to her never felt like a priority for me.

Nobody one-rounds those dragon knights so kill distribution is fairly easily controlled. The pegasi and even the cavs can get and want some of those kills.

23 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

Gordon gets to level 10 extremely easily promoting in chapter 7 even in ltc's so he might not even need those Draco knights to promote in chapter 7 if you're playing normally.

That’s a bold claim, especially without any numbers. I will investigate those.

 

[Whitfield1999]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

 

That’s a bold claim, especially without any numbers. I will investigate those.

 

@7:34

This is a 0% growths ltc, so even though gordins stats are going to be worse then george, this guy is still using him because snipers are just incredibly useful.

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at 10/1, Gordon has 0.5 strength, 2.5 skill and 3 luck over George, in exchange for 3 HP, 0.5 speed, 1.5 def and 2.8 res. When you consider the exp investment, it’s George’s win.

one of my points was that the exp investment isn't that big of a deal. Even in ltc's you can get hi promoted, the one above has him at level 11, I usually get get hit to 12 or 13 without really feeding him kills. But even if you only train him to level 10, he's pretty good no?

 But i've never said that gordon completely negates the use of george. I think george is a great unit as well, which is why you should use both of them. I was just saying that if you were to only pick one sniper to use for the whole game. Gordon was the better pick, which I guess is subjective. 

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Snipers aren’t great on desert maps either, and they don’t provide much on Marich’s join map. Enough of chapter 12 is outdoors to justify bringing a horseman over a second sniper.

draco knights have 10 move, so in chapter 9 you don't have to move your units far in the left side to bring those guys to you. In chapter 11 if you place a sniper in deployment slot 8 they can get rid of a draco knight on the first turn without needing to move at all, so I disagree that they're useless. they are also a lot better then kashim here which is why I made the point that chapter 12 it's better to give that orions bolt to him.

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The main draw of snipers is Partia, and with its power and durability, you don’t need multiple users.

I think the main draw to snipers is effective damage to fliers, which are plentiful. 7 move and the ability to cross rivers, and actually accurate and useful 2 range.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Whitfield1999

[Baldrick]

2 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

This is a 0% growths ltc, so even though gordins stats are going to be worse then george, this guy is still using him because snipers are just incredibly useful.

0% growths is a context that's actually quite beneficial to Gordon, and snipers in general. Most of the best units have high growths so they require less experience, and Marth can't reach the benchmarks needed to take the boots and power through the endgame, so he needs a lot more babysitting.

Gordon is also incredibly useful in a bows-only playthrough but that doesn't mean much.

2 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

one of my points was that the exp investment isn't that big of a deal. Even in ltc's you can get hi promoted, the one above has him at level 11, I usually get get hit to 12 or 13 without really feeding him kills. But even if you only train him to level 10, he's pretty good no?

 But i've never said that gordon completely negates the use of george. I think george is a great unit as well, which is why you should use both of them. I was just saying that if you were to only pick one sniper to use for the whole game. Gordon was the better pick, which I guess is subjective. 

Gordon is good (as is pretty much any other unit after you train them up), but as I said, there are many units that are great.

In order to evaluate Gordon v George objectively, you need to consider return on investment and self-sufficiency. There are several early-game units with high stats and growths; compared to them, it's not efficient to feed a unit with low stats and growths, that only ends up situationally better than a midgame filler unit.

2 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

draco knights have 10 move, so in chapter 9 you don't have to move your units far in the left side to bring those guys to you. In chapter 11 if you place a sniper in deployment slot 8 they can get rid of a draco knight on the first turn without needing to move at all, so I disagree that they're useless. they are also a lot better then kashim here which is why I made the point that chapter 12 it's better to give that orions bolt to him.

George can do that, and likely any other situation where you need a sniper, and there are doubtless situations in which you need a horseman, and you don't get any prepromoted horsemen. You also don't need to use every promotion item just because it's available.

[Whitfield1999]

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Gordon is good (as is pretty much any other unit after you train them up), but as I said, there are many units that are great.

In order to evaluate Gordon v George objectively, you need to consider return on investment and self-sufficiency. There are several early-game units with high stats and growths; compared to them, it's not efficient to feed a unit with low stats and growths, that only ends up situationally better than a midgame filler unit.

I think you've been glancing over what i've been trying to say this whole time. i've never been making the argument that gordon is one of your best units. I'm saying he fills a niche that needs to be filled with no investment. in the early game, he's one of the only units who can do effective damage to draco knights who you meet a lot of. He's by far the best candidate for the orions bolt in chapter 7 with no training required. The stat gains from snipers are so freaking insane that he doesn't even need any growths at that point to be a useful unit for the rest of the game. When talking about if a unit is good, comparing units to each other doesn't matter. (Oguma may be better then navarre, but they are both good so in maps where hero's are good why not field both?) That was never something I was trying to do, you were the one who made it out to gordon v. george argument when it was never a gordin v. george argument. I'm saying the merits listed in the OP means he's a good unit.

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0% growths is a context that's actually quite beneficial to Gordon, and snipers in general. Most of the best units have high growths so they require less experience, and Marth can't reach the benchmarks needed to take the boots and power through the endgame, so he needs a lot more babysitting.

growths don't matter much in this game. Stat caps are 20 and the enemies are usually very weak. what matters more to if a unit is useful has class effectiveness for a given map. FE4 you have tons of 10/10  combat units with great stats, but they're useless cause they almost can never see combat in the first place. Same deal here, but it's more balanced because there is more map variety.

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George can do that, and likely any other situation where you need a sniper, and there are doubtless situations in which you need a horseman, and you don't get any prepromoted horsemen. You also don't need to use every promotion item just because it's available.

I know... that's why I said a sniper. And you're right, you don't have to use every promotion items, granted that there is no good candidate for that promotional item. You get tons of dragon whips throughout the game, but I only use 2 for Catri and Palla cause after that there really isn't much more candidates for the dragon whips (maybe sheeda but she's kinda under leveled). Gordon is by far the best candidate for that Orions bolt without competition. Horsemen promotion gains sucks and the movement they have isn't very useful until chapter 13.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Whitfield1999

[X-Naut]

One point that neither of you are really touching on is the matter of necessity. Gordin is required to recruit Jeorge and the promotion lets him accomplish this faster, not to mention better hold his own along the way. At that point they're near-equal at worst and with Parthia+Starsphere shards low growths isn't a point against either. By contrast it's a lot less urgent to train other units. Sirius and Cain can handle the cavalry work, the Whitewings and Minerva have flight covered, and Linde isn't needed for staffs when Marisha/Yuliya, Wendell and insta-promo Merric/Arlen join by the time the first ring comes in. (You can buy another early promotion item in the Ch5 secret shop but you're not getting much value out of it.)

Also, Horseman's extra movement isn't all that useful period. Chapter 9 and 11 are deserts, 12 starts indoors and you fight the wyverns early, and Snipers have better mobility in 13 because they can cross rivers. Beyond that you have Warp, and the main bow targets tend to be close to start. The only places it'd make a huge difference are Chapter 19 and the second half of Chapter 21.

[Baldrick]

17 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

I think you've been glancing over what i've been trying to say this whole time. I've never been making the argument that gordon is one of your best units. I'm saying he fills a niche that needs to be filled with no investment.

George fills that niche with no levels or promotion items. Saying that Gordon requires no investment is objectively wrong, please stop making false statements.

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I'm saying the merits listed in the OP means he's a good unit.

I have said that he is good twice, merely qualifying that he is still below average because most units are good. You are not properly rebutting me, you are just disregarding the reasons I say Gordon is not worth using in the long term.

Please read my posts with more care if you are going to continue debating with me.

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I know... that's why I said a sniper.

So you are conceding that you only need to deploy one sniper?

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And you're right, you don't have to use every promotion items, granted that there is no good candidate for that promotional item.

The shop is a good candidate for it.

14 hours ago, X-Naut said:

One point that neither of you are really touching on is the matter of necessity.

I’ve never found it necessary to promote Gordon in order to safely recruit George. Gordon being necessary to recruit George is irrelevant to his performance as a unit.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Baldrick

[Valkama]

Gordin's great. One hard pill to swallow for people is that Snipers are actually really good in Book 2. 7 move in and outdoors with very light terrain penalties is just great and fliers are very prevalent all game making there effective damage always relevant. Not being able to retaliate at 1 range isn't such a big deal since enemies are usually very sparse. Having access to good 2 range also has some hidden benefits of being able to counter 1-2 range enemies with proper placement, something the sword locks have trouble with as their only weapon to do so is the Levin sword. Another not talked much about benefit of the Sniper is their Legendary weapon comes in Chapter 8. While it is true you can get the Legendary sword in Chapter 7/8/9 you miss out on a recruitment in doing so which locks you out of the perfect ending if you care about that.

It's very beneficial to run 2 snipers because of all their benefits. FE3 is really nice about deployment so you absolutely have space for them. Gordin's only really competition for the slot of second Sniper is Ryan who starts at level 1 and has to fullfil as 400 exp gap and will likely need some starshard investment to be able to use the Parthia in a timely fashion. I've used Gordin in both a growths run and a 0% growths run and, while he performed better in the former due to inevitably having better stats, he was still solid in 0% growths through about C16 after which his damage started to fall off. If you skip the Falchion then both Gordin and Jeorge are very good candidates for weakening Medeus.

As far as comparing Gordin to the rest of the cast. I'd say he's about on par with Jeorge, Ogma, and Navarre. All fill in the role of 7 move unit with good offense and light terrain penalties but Gordin also has the benefit of joining earlier than the other 3 and helps out with some of the earlier flier spam maps. He'll never be as good as the Non-Est Fliers or some of the really strong utility units like Wendell/Yuliya/Phina but he still fits pretty nicely in the upper echelon of the cast.

[Etrurian emperor]

I like Gordin. I can't say he ever blew me away as a unit but he wasn't exactly a burden either. I actually recall him being quite useful.

Its mostly as a character that I like him. Gordin is a sympathetic good boy who's endearing as a junior party member while also being a surprisingly dependable big brother to Ryan in their supports. 

[Whitfield1999]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:43 PM, Valkama said:

While it is true you can get the Legendary sword in Chapter 7/8/9 you miss out on a recruitment in doing so which locks you out of the perfect ending if you care about that.

This is kinda off topic, but I've always thought that getting that sword early safely was impossible since fighting the whole hero army seems like suicide. Would you just have to fly in with palla and hope for a crit, then seize immediately before ending your turn?

Also thanks for agreeing with me lol

Edited June 7, 2020 by Whitfield1999

[X-Naut]

8 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

This is kinda off topic, but I've always thought that getting that sword early safely was impossible since fighting the whole hero army seems like suicide. Would you just have to fly in with palla and hope for a crit, then seize immediately before ending your turn?

You have the range advantage, Astram only has 7 mov vs your three 8-10 mov fliers and however many cavalry plus whoever took the Orion's Bolt. 28 HP/11 Def backed by 22 Avoid doesn't offer him much longevity; promoted base Palla w/Silver Lance does 16 alone and with support from Catria she has 100 Hit. Pepper him with a few 2-range attacks then go for the throat. He's also the closest starting one so you can straddle his range without being in any other Hero's from both sides. With minimal investment it's not hard to kill him reliably.

As a side note but in line with the topic: Gordin recruits Astram by proxy (only he can recruit Jeorge in FE3, who's the only one who can recruit Astram).