Serenes Forest's Teehee Thread

[Shrimpica]

Tanccorte

[Shrimpica]

...

Game will atleast make me prepare inventory before that, right? 

Right?

[Shrimpica]

why wouldn't i?

[Saint Rubenio]

There he is! The man, the myth, the legend! I don't know why it says "scinario". I think the credits might've been left as is, because all the names were super Engrishy. I mean, seriously, Minerba?

One interesting thing about the endings is that instead of pointing out the chapter number and name where they died, it points out the location. Midia, for instance, fell in Gra. I think I like this better, honestly. Feels less gamey than the chapter name.

So. Fire Emblem 1. 656 turns it took me, all in all.

As always, what follows is my own personal and subjective opinion. Please don't kill me FE3 fans. Also, it's long. I don't have time to proofread it, so excuse me if there's some kind of massive misspelling or something.

A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one. I enjoyed that a lot. A lot more than I expected. Is it the best FE out there? No. Is it outdated? Yes. Do I recommend it? I'm... not sure. I have enjoyed it, especially with the manual, getting a taste of that old school feel. And the Spanish translation was half the fun, had a blast with all the quirks of the dialogue and the hilarious elitism. But still, this isn't something I expect many to truly enjoy, accustomed as we are to all the modern improvements. Heck, I don't even know how I enjoyed it myself!

Still, I now honestly think this game is excessively derided. I'd heard that it was a really easy game. This is false. Or at least it is if you don't use the top tier losers-- but honestly, with how well some of my units grew and the fact that I did use some top tier losers (Wendel in particular is insane here), I don't think so. Enemies hit surprisingly hard and were often quite fast thanks to the simple weight system and 1 speed being enough to double. Throwing units at packs of enemies was suicide every time, and even Maji wasn't that effective, because if the enemies don't do well against your unit, they just won't come at them. While it was no Conquest Lunatic, I needed to stay alert and think my moves through, which was enough to make it fun all the way through. Perhaps it does go a bit too hard on the endgame, but still. This was far from the complete braindeath that was FE3 book 1.
No UI is a woozy, but frankly, I prefer it to FE3's horrible shitfest of an interface. Going over to the manual to check weapon stats and then doing a couple of quick maths was far, far less annoying than trying to decipher the disorganized mess that are FE3's menus. I know I seem to be the one person in the world that has this problem, but I'm still going to list it. Cry me a river, FE1 good.
No siege weapons. This could sound like a downside, but I'm putting it here because of how much it improves one map in particular: The Wooden Cavalry. This map is still no walk in the park. Tanks hit super hard and require great might to take down, especially since Beck's useless behind can't leave his starting area with his thunderbolts. You need to be quite aggressive and employ heavy weaponry and magic. Even the boss, immobile as he is, can be a threat, since he's surrounded by lots of tanks and you need to sidestep his range while taking them down. Then there's FE11, where you are constantly in range of 10 heavy hitters at once, praying for the best. The map is actually rather fun in this version! Imagine that! And then they removed it from FE3. Boo.
The art. It has a certain charm to it. It's bad, it's ugly, people have clones and all, but it just has a special charm. It feels like baby's first designs. There's even a few genuinely good faces in there, like Hardin, Theda, Rinda, the hippo bros and Riff, to name a few off the top of my head. I love what they managed to accomplish with so little.
In fact, that goes for the entire game. This is one hell of an NES game. Massive and quite deep, for the time and the system. Now, don't get me wrong, as I believe I've said in the past, I'm not the kind to play "historical" games, so to speak, for fun. I will acknowledge and respect a game's impact and legacy, but if I have to pick a game to play just for fun, I'd rather choose future alternatives that are more fun and more polished. Still, it deserves to be said, because it's not said enough.
Healers leveling up by getting whacked. I just find it funny lol

I know, I kept on making FE3 comparisons. I can say with complete honesty that I no longer see the argument for FE3 book 1 over FE1. It is just as slow, the UI is barely an upside because it's awful, the difficulty is PoR and SS levels of mindless and it got stripped of the most arbitrary content. FE11 is the best version, certainly, it was modernized in ways that were sorely needed. But if you were to go back to the past for a change, I would 100% recommend the original over the SNES's half-assed remake.

For some flaws... First, there's the convoy. While the trade system is tolerable and does lend itself to some interesting situations sometimes, the convoy is just super annoying. While the 10 gold fee to throw something in there is a trifle (especially in a game that showers you with so much useless gold), static convoy is the worst, and it's also tiny, at 40 spaces. Not that you need them, really. Aside from a couple extra axes to keep your axe fighter of choice going between chapters 8 and 20, inventory management isn't all that necessary in this game. Weapon selection is limited enough and enemy density is low enough that you won't need to be changing up your inventories constantly. Still, when you do need to update your gear, it's an annoyance.
Second, promotions. Promoting is damn near useless, because it either does absolutely nothing for you or it just brings you up to the class bases, which means prepromotes are better than you. And the best promotions, fliers and mages, are first available in chapter 19, near the end of the game. This screws clerics over in particular - with their ultra late promotions and their lack of growths, there is absolutely zero reason to use Riff, Rena or Maria once you have Wendel and Boa, and Malik and Rinda are only saved by their prfs. All in all, this is a good game to be a prepromote, while growth units suffer. Perhaps the area in which you can tell the game's status as the first attempt the most.
Third, C R I T S. I lost so many units to crits. It doesn't happen so often that it feels like the entire game is one big gamble, but it definitely happened a bit more often than I'm used to. An unpleasant surprise, every time. No wonder they later made luck reduce crit rates!
Fourth, music. There's one track for player phase and one track for enemy phase and it stays that way until the endgame itself. I mean, I like the chiptune, but having it on repeat for the entire game is just kinda oof.
Lastly, there's game speed. But the emulator took care of that, unlike PoR in my first run. Stupid computer was too bad to allow Dolphin to speed up properly... Luckily, any potato should be able to speed up a NES emulator, of all things.

 

So, the game is certainly flawed and it has certainly aged rather ungracefully. By all means, FE11 is the superior version. But still... This game isn't the horrible insufferable piece of rusty garbage that everyone is sure it is. I found it a lot more palatable than everyone keeps insisting it is. Or maybe I'm just weird. We all knew that already.

All that remains now is to put it in the ranking. I fully expected it to go in the "bad FEs" side of it from the start. Now? I've finished it. I've finished it, and not out of morbid cruelty like Awakening. I honestly cannot justify a lower placement than below VS1. Every game underneath I enjoyed less, with the exception of Sacred Stones, which is an unfortunate case of "loved it back in the rookie days, too experienced to enjoy it now." This is a game where I hardly felt lategame fatigue, where I kept myself engaged with deaths and unit prospects and even an idea for a Youtube video towards the end.

I will put a close to this tomorrow, with the new video. It will require some editing. Until then... If anybody is curious to see what a FE1 team would look like, here is my endgame team:

Spoiler

Mars! The main guy! He got pretty powerful around the end, but he was too busy most of the time to actually fight. Visiting villages and being a provoke-bot were his main uses. Of course, provoke-bot alone makes him an incredible asset.

I trained him for the FE12 bias. He was a worse Georges and a worse Wolf without the horse, too. He got deployed in a couple chapters where I needed an extra guy. Not much else. Next.

After Julian's tragic death, there were attempts at training Ricardo. But his bases are just too low. He might've been good with a few more levels, but I hardly ever had the chance, man was needed at doors far too often.

Another filler guy. Mostly because of the design. Even back in this game, where he is an edit of the generic general boss sprite, he still looks great. He could take a hit and dish out another, but his speed was too bad for how late he joins.

Rinda was fun enough. In this game, magical power and accuracy cannot be raised. What the tome offers is what you get. Speed and defenses are the only relevant stats for mages, as a result. Rinda is part of the "we aren't worth using because Wendel and Boa exist" gang, or would be, if she didn't have aura. Aura packs a 20 power punch, which is pretty good in a few situations where you need something dead pronto. And with a crit it just erases whatever. Plus, I like her face in this game.

Pope. Pope is amazing in this game. He arrives prepromoted 14 chapters before any of the rookies can even begin to get there, and 14 speed in a game where everything caps at 20 and tomes weigh so little every mage, friend or foe, feels like a goddamn myrmidon. He's even decently tanky. 8 defense and 22 HP ensures he can eat a blow or two if he has to. Incredible unit.

Pope 2. That's... literally all there is to this man. He's just Pope with one more base speed but one less base defense and a few less chapters to exist. Which means he's still worth deploying in every map he exists, because he knocks all the clerics out of the park and is just as good at using magic as the mages, if not better. The backbone of the army, these two, and the fun kind of good unit.

Speaking of fun, Banutu was a plain better version of the knights. His damage wasn't all that, but with 15 base defense, he could choke any point I needed him too, with better movement and sweeter animations than any of the knights. A game where Bantu is good! You love to see it. Even fed him a speed ring for superior dragoness.

Tiki is Banutu with no availability. Meh. Too late to be trained properly, her damage was beyond low so feeding her levels was tough.

Gahaahahahahahaha... Not gonna lie, I only used this guy because of his face. I mean, duh. Look at him. He's beautiful. He was just a bad version of Bantu, until I gave him the boots, and a speed ring, and a skill ring, and then he turned into a bizarro paladin. Lovely. I love you, hippoman.

Solid sniper. He grew quite well initially, and even though his fluke petered out quickly, it took him far enough to wield Partia to great effect. Like in the canon! Too bad I lost Hardin so FE3 straight up can't happen lololololololololol

I didn't expect him to get so good! I did feed him a strength ring, but it was honestly the best use of a statbooster in the whole run, alongside the speed ring on Riff that singlehandedly saved my sorry ass from Camus. Wolf became a heavy-hitting artillery with massive movement after being given the ring, and he just kept going. While he didn't double as often as I would've liked, he was a reliable guy. Not bad, even if he's far from the meme he is in Shadow Dragon.

Look at this absolute MAN! I am amazed at how good Aran is in this game. He arrives with solid bases and his genuinely great growths quickly make him into a powerhouse. Only weak point is his strength. I gave him a strength ring, otherwise he would've been on the weaker side. Still, he would've had 15 strength. That still would've been pretty awesome. Great unit, I am glad I picked him over Samson.

Meme. Like I said above, there's absolutely no reason to use this guy - especially this guy, since unlike Rena and Maria, he's likely to be incapable of levelling enough wplvl to use all the staves in the game prior to promotion. Couldn't even physic, the fucking old man. But memes, so I gave him a speed ring and he solo'd Camus. Joy.

And last, but believe you me, not least, is...

Maji. Sure, I gave him a defense ring. He was still the tankiest unit in the team prior to that. He was also insanely strong, for some reason. Like, what happened? Did I mix the twins up? I'm fairly certain this is Cord, and yet these look like Bord stats. Look at that massive strength! The lesser speed! That's not Cord! And yet, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. The RNGoddess works in mysterious ways, that is something I've long known.

Who said you need promotion? Look where this man ended up without such a privilege. Best unit in the team. If axes weren't so heavy he would've been absurdly broken. And even then, even if his accuracy was a wee bit unreliable, his damage was unmatched. I salute you, man. I never expected you to become quite so strong... But then, I never expected this game to be so good, did I?

 

A minute to remember the fallen. I couldn't have gotten where I got without them.

Not pictured, Paola, Kachua and Est, all of whom disappeared upon hearing of Minerva's demise. I did bring her back to life with the Om, but... Alas, it was too late.

Honestly I'm glad Zagallo died, he was complete garbage and I only relented and picked up Wolf after he died. He saved myself from my own stubborness by sacrificing himself. A true hero. I salute you, Zagallo!

 

...I actually enjoyed this game.

Wow. I can hardly believe it. What a box of surprises this entire thing was... I'm glad I ended up giving it a shot. I can only hope Gaiden surprises me just as much and as pleasantly.

2 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

Tanccorte

Rookie numbers. My first Karajan capped defense.

1 minute ago, Shrimpy said:

...

Game will atleast make me prepare inventory before that, right? 

Right?

Haha

I hope you gave Karajan a tome.

Just now, Shrimpy said:

why wouldn't i?

Hahahahahah

Because you're gonna be watching it till 2 in the morning. This scene is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong

[Shrimpica]

Magical blastly lmao

king

5 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

hope you gave Karajan a tome

i think i gave him a wind one...

Or did i take it from him again after the chapter don't remember

Not like he can hit anything anyway xD

5 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Because you're gonna be watching it till 2 in the morning. This scene is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong

boi

[Saint Rubenio]

6 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

i think i gave him a wind one...

Or did i take it from him again after the chapter don't remember

Not like he can hit anything anyway xD

No joke tho, Karajan can legit snowball if he's given some early levels. Especially when he gets his insane prf. Even by Vestaria's absurd standards his prf is great.

Still, even without training, big physics is a nice little niche for the guy. I hope you continue to use him and Bertoullia.

6 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

boi

Took me 2 hours and 40 minutes in my first run. In the second I skipped it. Someone else kept track of the time. I mean, sure, I was stopping to report typos and talk on the beta test's discord, but still. 2 hours and 40 minutes. Even the VS1 banquet pales in comparison.

[Shrimpica]

lol

[Shrimpica]

Ah Athol

Always useless

Zade, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE edition

BROSKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Bro really

Mr.Thracian Drago Knight too?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Shrimpy

[Interdimensional Observer]

I've been playing bits of Ys Seven again, it hasn't hooked me the way VIII and IX has, but I'm making gradual progress. I've got all seven heroes now, this game definitely feels shorter than its successors. I bested the Earth Dragon, which felt like the first remarkable fight of the game, even on Easy, I could sense the atmospheric intensity and effort poured into making the boss battle. Hopefully the other dragons are as dramatic as enemies.

What presently eludes me is why Tia, IIRC, was one of the flower petal reference characters in Ys IX. She isn't playable, she seems entirely ordinary, what makes her worth noting and why has the story put some attention on her? My present guess is that she has something to do with the Iska Tribe, maybe she's of the lost Iska elder lineage, not unlike an entirely unrelated Tia. The other non-Adol and Dogi characters are fine, one archetypal princess, and the three elders are okay as the more subdued secondary cast members (and a dual blade user is cool). Geis, I feel like need to play his prior Ys game to better judge him. I like the halberd, and his design and later impression are fine, it's that first impression that leaves me a little mixed on him.

 

3 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Let's see if the game can keep me interested this time

Remember, it's perfectly fine not to like it!😉

 

2 hours ago, ping said:

HON HON HON! VICTOIRE POUR LA PÂTE DENTIFRICE!
Which, OK, is green in that screenshot, but that's just because I'm in peace deal menu.

I daresay that this is every Englishman's worst nightmare - the #2 and #3 powers on the continent now ruled by one king. Invading Britain is still quite the ordeal, since they get some disgusting bonuses to their naval combat.

Soooo, any further plans to make the Brits lose their s****s by establishing a stronger continental hegemony?

 

15 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

...I actually enjoyed this game.

Wow. I can hardly believe it.

And that's all that matters, isn't it?😉

You've made me 0.00001% more likely to give FE1 a try if Nintendo ever takes it out of their Disney Vault again for the international audience. But I think I'll stick with FE3B2 for a dose of Marchanea otherwise.😛

[Shrimpica]

LMAO

so Yuri is fair game?

17 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

What presently eludes me is why Tia, IIRC, was one of the flower petal reference characters in Ys IX

she hottie blue hair, nothing more needed

and yeah i can imagine it might be quite hard to play 7 after 8 and 9

Edited August 18, 2022 by Shrimpy

[Saint Rubenio]

15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And that's all that matters, isn't it?😉

Eyup.

15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

You've made me 0.00001% more likely to give FE1 a try if Nintendo ever takes it out of their Disney Vault again for the international audience. But I think I'll stick with FE3B2 for a dose of Marchanea otherwise.😛

Fuck Nintendo's vault. Play it with a fanslation. They're better, all of 'em.

10 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

LMAO

She said the line

The line that was so good, it was restored after initially being changed by the official translator due to popular demand. You simply can't take away the war profiteering mine. It is for the good of the people!

[Shrimpica]

Kaga was a VN writer all along

[Interdimensional Observer]

45 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

she hottie blue hair, nothing more needed

*Looks at your sig*

Alright then.😄

 

33 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Fuck Nintendo's vault. Play it with a fanslation. They're better, all of 'em.

Except I don't feel like downloading an NES/Famicom emulator, since I can't really think of any other titles I'd go back to that era for. A chore (albeit it very minor), for a game I'm not exactly enthused about.

33 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

The line that was so good, it was restored after initially being changed by the official translator due to popular demand. You simply can't take away the war profiteering mine. It is for the good of the people!

"Happy is that city, which in time of peace, thinks of war."

No idea if the Venetians, as one author wrote, actually had this written somewhere in their famed Arsenal, but I felt it was appropriate to mention. Could be saying a strong offense is a good defense, but then, the Venetians were if anything expert profiteers.

The Venetian Arsenal, itself was Europe's large single concentrated workforce for several centuries. Empires bigger than a single city with some hinterlands and islands, might have more total workers over their entire territory, but the Arsenal's 2500 workmen in the 1500-1600s comprised Europe's single biggest "factory" so to speak. The many ships the Arsenal workers churned out couldn't have been solely for peaceful purposes, and certainly not the munitions. 

Venice also had a thriving glassmaking industry for centuries, until the rest of Europe managed to break its monopoly. -You wouldn't have wanted to have been a Venetian glassmaker however, as you were banned for life from ever leaving the designated glassmakers' island. It was in the Venetian national interest to keep you from running off to another country and end up setting up business there, as it would thereby give Venice's geopolitical rivals the manufactory knowhow for making high-quality glasswork. Can't have that.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Shrimpica]

i like you more already

Lmao

She has the Monado, that one

Is Athol Feena now?

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

*Looks at your sig*

Alright then.😄

blue hair superiority!

even if prefer red, green and white more xD

Edited August 18, 2022 by Shrimpy

[Lightchao42]

Every puzzle has an answer, Luke.

7 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

No, but seriously, what do you mean? I don't play enough games with voice acting to actively recognize prominent voice actors. Unless it's like, the one for Hanneman, and that's just because he speaks in a super characteristic way that I'd instantly recognize.

I was talking about the clown girl from Triangle Strategy who apparently has godlike powers.

6 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Just wait until III

I can't wait for Linde and Vivi to become the main protagonists.

6 hours ago, Newtype06 said:

Ruben... are you telling us you never watched LOTR?

I haven't seen it either, but I read some of the book and The Hobbit. I should continue it some day...

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Because you're gonna be watching it till 2 in the morning. This scene is looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong

Would you say the scene needs to be that long or is Kaga simply trying to go for a world record?

1 hour ago, Shrimpy said:

Zade, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE edition

I get that the scene is probably serious but the way he's saying it is just

 

25 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

Is Athol Feena now?

The moment Athol lost her deuteragonist privileges, she got Kaga'd.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Armagon

[Shrimpica]

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Would you say the scene needs to be that long or is Kaga simply trying to go for a world record?

it was honestly quite juicy

And according to my save file around 1 hour long or so.

Not bad by any means, just wish there was one or two save spots between xD

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The moment Athol lost her deuteragonist privileges, she got Kaga'd.

Athol is like, the most Kaga heroine ever. So damn useless lol

Edited August 18, 2022 by Shrimpy

[Venger_06]

I have to admit, the whole premise of this game is pretty cool.

4 hours ago, Shrimpy said:

I already experienced half of it tho

soon ™️

I will say tho, with the fantl being so fast i have hopes i might play the remake this decade, actually xD

You need the full experience™️

The Far Side is just like Heaven's Feel where in order for it to hit hard you need the content to be uncensored, unfiltered. The remake will have dragons, dolphins and its equivalents.

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

3DS version? Oh boy, I cant imagine playing it on a handheld

I'ts a hassle to set it up the Wii and I can't get used to the controls.

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Is it slow/laggy? Honestly curious how it runs, as i have no intentions of trying it myself.

Not really, the game runs incredibly well considering the console its on. Load times are fast and the resolution isn't bad when you're playing it on a small screen.

2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Please don't kill me FE3 fans.

Well, you see, that's where you are wrong: there aren't any FE3 fans. They do not exist.

2 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Wow. I can hardly believe it. What a box of surprises this entire thing was... I'm glad I ended up giving it a shot. I can only hope Gaiden surprises me just as much and as pleasantly.

Inb4 you join the team that likes Gaiden and dislikes Echoes.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Remember, it's perfectly fine not to like it!😉

No... I don't want that...

2 hours ago, Shrimpy said:

[Sidereal Wraith]

19 minutes ago, Newtype06 said:

Inb4 you join the team that likes Gaiden and dislikes Echoes.

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

37 minutes ago, Newtype06 said:

The Far Side is just like Heaven's Feel where in order for it to hit hard you need the content to be uncensored, unfiltered. The remake will have dragons, dolphins and its equivalents.

You do realize that dolphins have been known to engage in recreational sex? Including stuff that can't make babies like the good old rub. This is an oddity (if not unheard of- bonobos) in the animal kingdom outside of humans. They've even been seen horny with things other than their own species, including humans (not always consensual, we shouldn't expect another if less highly intelligent species to know to consent is a MUST when not all of us hairless apes understand that).

37 minutes ago, Newtype06 said:

Well, you see, that's where you are wrong: there aren't any FE3 fans. They do not exist.

🙋‍♂️

Not the best FE or anything, but I found one playthrough of both books enjoyable. Might be more willing to return to it than FEs 11 or 12.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

9 hours ago, Saint Rubenio said:

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about... Oh no, I know it's not unrealistic. Middle ages were fucked. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though. Especially when the game is far from being a historical tale and also actively treats it like it's a good thing, for some reason.

Honestly, at this point... I feel you guys have beaten the horse carcass for far too long it becomes annoying at times.

3 hours ago, Shrimpy said:

Wait, is "turn 18" a separate thing from "becomes an adult" or what's with the phrasing there.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Shrimpica]

Amlute truly Bow Roy.

Can i have Bow Sigurd back

13 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Wait, is "turn 18" a separate thing from "becomes an adult" or what's with the phrasing there.

 

So Yuri isn't allowed after all?

[Interdimensional Observer]

22 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Wait, is "turn 18" a separate thing from "becomes an adult" or what's with the phrasing there.

The phrasing to me, thanks to numbering, suggests being 18 or having intercourse is what qualifies as becoming an adult. It sounds like "condition 3." she was about to say, but... then came the ellipsis.

Which reminds me how I read once -and I didn't pursue the details- that one James Bond film has a psychic Bond Girl whose powers apparently are related to her virginity. In other words, Ryusei is psychic until the day he dies.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Shrimpy said:

So Yuri isn't allowed after all?

Nah, that one should be fine since it's all contained within commas, so it's clear she's referring to. lol

That said... why did she begun like a list but then stopped counting after the 2?

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Which reminds me how I read once -and I didn't pursue the details- that one James Bond film has a psychic Bond Girl whose powers apparently are related to her virginity. In other words, Ryusei is psychic until the day he dies.

Yep, virginity giving you powers is a classic trope.

Don't underestimate him, when the likes of Angelg or Valsione are around....