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Just now, Saint Rubenio said:

Lonely? It's the most popular FE by far. Don't listen to us, we're just a handful of cranky fans of The Good Ol' Dayswho wish the series went in a different direction than it did. Most people love the game to bits.

I meant liking the gameplay specifically.

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Then there's me, the blubbering mass in the corner who is still trying to make it clear where he's at and doesn't want most of the games to be hated.

Except for SDatBoL for some reason.

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2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Lonely? It's the most popular FE by far. Don't listen to us, we're just a handful of cranky fans of The Good Ol' Dayswho wish the series went in a different direction than it did. Most people love the game to bits.

Very insightful way to look at it! 

I dunno if I feel that way though, I just think 3H is garbage, really.

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2 minutes ago, Sooks said:

I meant liking the gameplay specifically.

I mean, yeah. People love Three Houses in general. Monastery complaints are a bit more common, but you'll find plenty of people singing the maps' praises. I... I cannot see it, that game's maps range from boring to embarrassingly terrible for me.

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

Very insightful way to look at it! 

Thank you. I do try, in the odd moments I'm not ranting about this or that FE.

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

I dunno if I feel that way though, I just think 3H is garbage, really.

You got good taste, that's why you think that way

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10 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

To be fair, he does have a point. Each Kaga game is radically different from the last, with the arguable exception of Vestaria (which he made in his retirement) and TearRing Saga. Compared to that, IntSys's games definitely do feel a lot more samey. Not completely similar, but far less distinct than Kaga's games.

Ehhhh let's take a look.

Shadow Dragon and Blade of Light was the first game, pretty standard stuff outside the fact that it's extremely dated.

Gaiden was the Zelda II of the franchise.

Mystery was once again pretty standard stuff.

Genealogy very different than what came before.

Thracia it's exactly standard but it did set up for what IntSys would be doing post-GBA.

TearRing I haven't played but I imagined it's pretty standard.

Berwick is Berwick. If you know, you know. 

Vestaria is once again pretty standard for the most part.

Of the eight Kaga games, only three of them can really be called radically different.

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2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

I mean, yeah. People love Three Houses in general. Monastery complaints are a bit more common, but you'll find plenty of people singing the maps' praises. I... I cannot see it, that game's maps range from boring to embarrassingly terrible for me.

I have never seen anyone praise the map design, actually.

I wish I could be like those people who find enjoyment in every fe but Awakening is just... so bad...

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10 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ehhhh let's take a look.

Shadow Dragon and Blade of Light was the first game, pretty standard stuff outside the fact that it's extremely dated.

Gaiden was the Zelda II of the franchise.

Mystery was once again pretty standard stuff.

Genealogy very different than what came before.

Thracia it's exactly standard but it did set up for what IntSys would be doing post-GBA.

TearRing I haven't played but I imagined it's pretty standard.

Berwick is Berwick. If you know, you know. 

Vestaria is once again pretty standard for the most part.

Of the eight Kaga games, only three of them can really be called radically different.

Holding the game that set the standard to the standard is kinda unfair. Being the first game should automatically make SDaBoL not count, in my opinion.

Mystery I'll give you. Clearly they just wanted to redo 1 in better hardware.

Thracia has fatigue, growth scrolls that make everyone viable, capture which really mixes things up in the gameplay, it was the first game to feature rescuing so it can be considered a "unique" feature in that context... It's less different than Genealogy or Berwick, for sure, but compared to the jump from FE6 to 7, for example, or even from 8 to 9 (PoR added bonus experience, automatic promotions and reintroduced skills. That's it), well... It's a lot more.

TearRing I'll give you as well. Much like Mystery, TearRing feels like Kaga trying to remake Gaiden in a more powerful system.

Vestaria's maps are insane enough to count, in my opinion, but still, I can give you that one. Kaga made it in his retirement, anyway.

In my opinion, it should be 4 of 7. Thracia counts as well. Doesn't sound like that much, but compare that ratio to IntSys's. The GBA FEs are all the same. PoR has a couple of minor quirks and is otherwise the same as GBA FE. DSFE is GBA FE without rescuing and with reclassing. Awakening and Fates, from what I've gathered, play the same, mechanically speaking, only Fates is more refined (though I could be wrong here - scream at me if I am, I'm unfamiliar with Awakening). It's really only Radiant Dawn, Awakening, Echoes and Three Houses that truly mixed things up. That means 4 games - same amount as Kaga, but the ratio is worse because they have more titles.

Edited by Saint Rubenio

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I wonder what teachers are thinking when they assign you super dull, tedious and meticulous assignments that they know not even people who like the subject will enjoy.

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14 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

In my opinion, it should be 4 of 7. Thracia counts as well. Doesn't sound like that much, but compare that ratio to IntSys's. The GBA FEs are all the same. PoR has a couple of minor quirks and is otherwise the same as GBA FE. DSFE is GBA FE without rescuing and with reclassing. Awakening and Fates, from what I've gathered, play the same, mechanically speaking, only Fates is more refined (though I could be wrong here - scream at me if I am, I'm unfamiliar with Awakening). It's really only Radiant Dawn, Awakening, Echoes and Three Houses that truly mixed things up. That means 4 games - same amount as Kaga, but the ratio is worse because they have more titles.

Oh no, Awakening got nothing. It's even more barebone then the GBA games in terms of mechanics. It has "skills", but they are all just activation based junk or a straight bonus to stats.

Echoes is also just Gaiden, so I don't see it a point in IS' favor. They added "arts", which are pretty obviously taken from Berwick Saga.
And even ignoring that, the concept is just done so much worse here. A sea of skills that are just slight variations of adding attack and accuracy in exchange for forfeiting double attacking.
It's still progress, sure. But considering Berwick Saga came out 12 years earlier, it really just highlights how lacking the franchise is mechanically.

Edited by BrightBow

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2 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Thracia has fatigue, growth scrolls that make everyone viable, capture which really mixes things up in the gameplay, it was the first game to feature rescuing so it can be considered a "unique" feature in that context... It's less different than Genealogy or Berwick, for sure, but compared to the jump from FE6 to 7, for example, or even from 8 to 9 (PoR added bonus experience, automatic promotions and reintroduced skills. That's it), well... It's a lot more.

I meant to say isn't exactly standard, that was a typo on my part. But a lot of what is in Thracia did make it into later IntSys games, most notably Tellius and post-Awakening 3DS era.

3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Holding the game that set the standard to the standard is kinda unfair. Being the first game should automatically make SDaBoL not count, in my opinion.

Oh i wasn't actually holding the first game as the standard, i just meant it's standard in a general sense.

7 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Awakening and Fates, from what I've gathered, play the same, mechanically speaking, only Fates is more refined (though I could be wrong here - scream at me if I am, I'm unfamiliar with Awakening).

Awakening plays like a less-refined Birthright specifically. Conquest and Revelation are different enough (for better or worse in the latter, depending on who you ask).

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1 minute ago, BrightBow said:

Oh no, Awakening got nothing. It's even more barebone then the GBA games in terms of mechanics. It has "skills", but they are all just activation based junk or a straight bonus to stats.

Oh, so Awakening doesn't have stances and all that?

Well, my overall point stands. You just swap Awakening for Fates in the list of games that mixed things up, and there you go. Amount remains the same.

3 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Echoes is also just Gaiden, so I don't see it a point in IS' favor. They added "arts", which are pretty obviously taken from Berwick Saga.

That is true. Perhaps I was being too generous. Wait, why would I be generous, I'm a Kaga elitist...!

3 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

It's progress, sure. But considering Berwick Saga came out 12 years earlier, it really just highlights how lacking the franchise is mechanically.

IntSys should just copy Berwick Saga. I wouldn't even complain. Call it Emblem Saga, just to be cheeky.

Just now, Armagon said:

But a lot of what is in Thracia did make it into later IntSys games, most notably Tellius and post-Awakening 3DS era.

In terms of originality, that's a point against IntSys, though, not against Kaga.

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3 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

 

TearRing I'll give you as well. Much like Mystery, TearRing feels like Kaga trying to remake Gaiden in a more powerful system.

I think you are selling TearRing a bit short here, it made numerous innovations over Gaiden, for instance the places where the two split armies come together, and you have the chance to rearrange who will be in which of the two armies is a stark departure, the strength of support bonuses increasing with in game conversations was an innovation Kaga brought about before even IS introduced the GBA support system, same idea with being able to go back to some of the older locations to shop (even if it is a little janky in places...but I don't think Gaiden even had shops...), not to mention the idea of gaining an advantage based on the type of map, enemy types you killed, and weapon used to kill enemies were more distinct change ups to the gaiden formula. This isn't even mentioning the over the top information given about every unit...

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1 minute ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Oh, so Awakening doesn't have stances and all that?

Technically it does, it's just broken as fuck because it's rolled into one. Fates had to come in and make a distinction.

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The way I see it, the only Kaga games not to make some big innovation(s) on a mechanical level are, exempting FE1, FE3 and VS1. FE2 was, y'know, FE2, FE4 was very distinct, FE5 did capture, fatigue, rescue. TRS's route split system is quite a big deal, Berwick is entirely different from everything else. VS1 has incredibly different map design but that's not really all that different mechanically. 

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7 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Oh, so Awakening doesn't have stances and all that?

No, it doesn't. It has "Pair Up", but just means reducing a unit to a powerup for another unit. Whether a partner unit decides to do dual attacks or dual guards is entirely activation based. So they are just two more activation based skills, basically.

Fates actually really impressed me how it almost managed to turn the nothingburger that is Pair Up into something that actually has strategic value.
...of course the fact that "Defense Stance" completely cancels out "Attack Stance" kinda turns this into a rock/paper/scissor game without scissors. But hey, good effort.

Edited by BrightBow

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4 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I think you are selling TearRing a bit short here, it made numerous innovations over Gaiden, for instance the places where the two split armies come together, and you have the chance to rearrange who will be in which of the two armies is a stark departure, the strength of support bonuses increasing with in game conversations was an innovation Kaga brought about before even IS introduced the GBA support system, same idea with being able to go back to some of the older locations to shop (even if it is a little janky in places...but I don't think Gaiden even had shops...), not to mention the idea of gaining an advantage based on the type of map, enemy types you killed, and weapon used to kill enemies were more distinct change ups to the gaiden formula. This isn't even mentioning the over the top information given about every unit...

I probably did sell it a bit short. I was trying to be as fair as possible. I mean, I do love TRS. You never know for sure where the observations end and the bias begins.

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Technically it does, it's just broken as fuck because it's rolled into one. Fates had to come in and make a distinction.

 

1 minute ago, BrightBow said:

No, it doesn't It has "Pair Up", but just means reducing a unit to a powerup for another unit. Whether a partner unit decides to do dual attacks or dual guards is entirely activation based. So they are just two more activation based skills, basically.

Fates actually really impressed me how it almost managed to turn the nothingburger that is Pair Up into something that actually has strategic value.
...of course the fact that "Defense Stance" completely cancels out "Attack Stance" kinda turns this into a rock/paper/scissor game without scissors. But hey, good effort.

Right... Well, either way, considering Fates really just seems like "Awakening but better", gameplay speaking, I think it's fair to give them a single originality point for both. They're distinct enough from the post-Thracia formula, just not distinct from each other.

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9 minutes ago, Saint Rubenio said:

Right... Well, either way, considering Fates really just seems like "Awakening but better", gameplay speaking, I think it's fair to give them a single originality point for both. They're distinct enough from the post-Thracia formula, just not distinct from each other.

Awakening is distinct

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ly bad. The map design is good awful, and the Fates map designers know what fun is, so shouldn’t they be counted separately? Awakening is so bad it’s its own entity, incomparable to Fates 😛

It goes where no fe goes in terms of quality, that’s pretty distinct/new/original.

Edited by Sooks

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59 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I didn't mention this before but the depth perception Baten Kaitos is kinda shit sometimes. Sometimes i just wanna avoid an enemy but i end up bumping into them because i couldn't tell how far apart they were.

Other times, it'll be me trying to get into Corellia's Palace for 10 minutes but not knowing how because the steps leading up to it blends in with everything.

Which is why this "pre-rendered" approach to worlds in JRPGs subsequently died out. Born on the PS1 because actual 3D graphics back then were garbo, it continued living onto the PS2 and GameCube in some instances, Final Fantasy X (2001) coming to mind as well as a non-BK example (albeit only some of the time does it use pre-rendering).

By the end of the era, the use of 2D artwork with 3D characters became obsolete. Technology had progressed enough that 3D world graphics could be aesthetically pleasing and functional at the same time. Tales of Symphonia (2003) and Final Fantasy XII (2006) provided evidence of this.

-Or so I postulate as the reason for this sudden absence of pre-rendering after 2006 (BKO) on consoles. BK is the high-water mark of this "bridge to Xenoblade", to name a franchise we know and love which has proven the majesty of true 3D graphics.

Soma Bringer (2008), Rune Factory, and Bravely Default are evidence that pre-rendering still had life left on portables due to their graphical inferiority. In Rune Factory's case, the two console games ditched pre-rendering, suggesting it was considered an antiquated idea. 

If a game wants a beautiful 2D world, it probably shouldn't try to blend in 3D as well anymore. Let 2D games be 2D as a whole, and 3D games be 3D in their entirety. And so I concur that pre-rendering is a thing, primarily and rightfully, of the past.

 

51 minutes ago, Dayni said:

Then there's me, the blubbering mass in the corner who is still trying to make it clear where he's at and doesn't want most of the games to be hated.

Same. I lean towards being Order Incarnate, if I were a forum mod, I'd probably overstep the boundaries a little in the name of harmony. I've also learned to use ignore lists when someone's opinions cross the line from "different from mine, but I should acknowledge it and consider it so as to not live in an echo chamber" to "just plain acidic", what a delightful invention that is.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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It's honestly kinda hard for me to rag on Awakening considering it's circumstances. It has it's flaws of course but the game was intended as a swan song and the only reason it wasn't was because it exploded in popularity.

Awakening has references to everything that came before it so as a sendoff, it's kinda nice. But we're in the timeline where the series continued.

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Soma Bringer (2008), Rune Factory, and Bravely Default are evidence that pre-rendering still had life left on portables due to their graphical inferiority. In Rune Factory's case, the two console games ditched pre-rendering, suggesting it was considered an antiquated idea. 

These games are also top-down/isometric so it works better. Can't say i ever had any depth perception issues in Rune Factory 4. 

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So it seems everyone is playing FE4.

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12 minutes ago, Armagon said:

These games are also top-down/isometric so it works better. Can't say i ever had any depth perception issues in Rune Factory 4. 

True, isometric seriously helps.

 

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

So it seems everyone is playing FE4.

Not everyone. Once is enough for me, maybe more if I could just jump to Gen 2 with whatever breeding I wanted. But Gen 1's story can't get me to run through it again, the gameplay is a bit too boggy for that.

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21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Same. I lean towards being Order Incarnate, if I were a forum mod, I'd probably overstep the boundaries a little in the name of harmony. I've also learned to use ignore lists when someone's opinions cross the line from "different from mine, but I should acknowledge it and consider it so as to not live in an echo chamber" to "just plain acidic", what a delightful invention that is.

Bah, acidic isn't really happening here. I'm just not the most agreeable with the underlying points I'm reading beyond the discussions of innovations in the base gameplay here.

Probably for the best I was deicing a freezer just now.

Edited by Dayni

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1 minute ago, Dayni said:

Probably for the best I was deicing a freezer just now.

Sometimes it's a good thing to step away from the electric screen and engage in a little menial labor. All the shoveling this month from the snowfalls was tiring yet exhilarating good for me.

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