Who should have betrayed their faction?

[vikingsfan92]

17 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

It's actually not.

It's from Chapter 11 of White Cloud, so Constance is against Edelgard's plan from the beginning without Byleth making choices first.

So yes, it is arguably her neutral position.

She's also the only Black Eagle with special battle dialogue against Edelgard here

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Throne_of_Knowledge/Script#.28With_Constance.29

 

 

---------------

If we were talking about post skip, she actually states she will build a new House Nuvelle by fighting Edelgard

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/To_War_(Silver_Snow)/Script#Edelgard.C2.A0

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Conclusion_of_the_Crossing_Roads_(Silver_Snow)/Script#Vs._Constance

You realize CF exists right?  Your quoting act like cf doesn't exist which I don't like at all.  And the fact she has a quote with Edelgard is kind saying she has more of a bond with Edelgard and thus less likely to betray her then anything. Look at other unique dialogue options all of them are really close characters Shmamir vs Catherine, Annette vs Mercedes,  Felix vs Ingrid,  Sylvain vs Felix,  Raphel vs Ignatz,   ect. so I don't think the unique dialogue option helps the argument they would go separate ways much in fact I think it does the opposite.

[haarhaarhaar]

I had personally assumed Constance would default to the Empire, because Edelgard takes down most of the Seven Houses on her way to the throne. And Constance reveals in her B-support with Byleth that House Nuvelle were ultimately destroyed because they were loyal to Ionius (and thus Edelgard) instead of the Insurrection. I didn't know about the dialogue quoted above (I've only played with Constance on CF so far), and it certainly isn't unreasonable for her not to side with Edelgard. But given that it seems at the outset of the war like Edelgard's is the more powerful side, it would make sense for Constance to choose Edelgard as the shortest route to re-establishing House Nuvelle.

[omegaxis1]

10 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Constance actually says she would stop Edelgard without hesitation had she knew about the plan in Chapter 11.

It's actually really strange she wouldn't join one of the anti empire faction if you choose Crimson Flower.

Then you didn't see Constance's comment after?

Quote

Constance: I knew nothing of Lady Edelgard's past or of her innermost feelings. But I know now. I persuaded her to tell all. It would have been rude to hound her relentlessly until she revealed herself, yes? Then that's certainly not what I did. Ahaha!

As I mentioned above, the key difference in CF with the others is that in CF, the students are all there WITH Byleth. They SEE Rhea have her meltdown and turn into a monster in front of their eyes. 

It's what made them all be willing to hear Edelgard out.

And Constance decided to pressure Edelgard and learned of her past. 

So no, it makes sense what made Constance join Edelgard. 

[Darkmoon6789]

7 hours ago, Slyfox said:

I very much look forward to doing so. While I have major grievances with Three Houses, it still is my favorite game of the series. I've never been against Crimson Flower, my only issue was characters joining/not joining Edelgard's side.

The main reason I've taken so long to do play Crimson Flower is because of the burnout I've mentioned. I always go into my games mostly blind, I had no idea about anything regarding the characters when I first played. I played Silver Snow first which was... kind of empty. But I enjoyed it. Then I went into Verdant Wind, still blind. That was a mistake. Nearly identical. That's when the burnout happened. And then spoiled myself on many things from the other routes because I just couldn't bring myself to continue.

If White Clouds was a communal route before you chose to split off into a dedicated path, Three Houses would have been so much more enjoyable for repeat plays.

I do know what you mean. Considering I played the game three times in a row, crimson flower, verdant wind and azure moon in the listed order. 

Let's say that I am very sick of playing white clouds by this point. But at the very least the different house leaders have different common terrace on the events. I did also read, but it is really not recommended to play Verdant Wind after Silver Snow, or vice versa. Silver Snow being so similar to a route I have already played is another reason why I saved it for last. 

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Honestly, I feel one key thing people tend to forget in CF (particularly those that thing that it makes no sense why anyone would join Edelgard) is that it's the route where everyone sees Rhea having a meltdown and see her turn into a giant monster right before their eyes. Not exactly something that people can just unsee once they see it. 

It's quite the reality breaker there. It's why they are willing to hear Edelgard out, and why she can actually explain why she's fighting the Church. You can't exactly explain why you are opposing the archbishop because no one would believe that the archbishop is secretly a dragon that's been disguising herself as a human for over a thousand years. 

Taking into account how long Rhea's been alive, it makes people wonder just what Rhea had or could have done. It's easy to make your own deductions and think that she could have fabricated much history, and even manipulated many events. And given how many students are fearful of Rhea because of how they have seen how she acts in situations with such ruthlessness, it makes them more unlikely to trust in the Church. 

And knowing what Edelgard is fighting for, wishing to remove the Crests, allow a meritocratic government, and so on, many characters would be on to fight for such a cause. Cause a lot of the students hate the Crest system, and commoner kids want to have social mobility. 

Honestly, I feel that CF is the better route when it comes to realism. Since it's the one route where you can't recruit everyone.

The other routes make terribly little sense. 

Honestly, many students don't even work in the other routes. Hilda in AM for one thing. Why would she be willing to fight under the army of Dimitri when he's being a literal lunatic? 

Makes perfect sense as Rhea's behaviours surrounding the holy tomb incident is also what solidified my loyalty to Edelgard's cause. Makes sense that it would do the same for certain characters.

I already had my suspicions regarding the church because of some statements Rhea made about the Lonato rebellion about making an example of those who stand against the church. There has been signs of her being extremely cruel and ruthless throughout the game and her dialogue after the holy tomb mission solidified this. 

There is also all be fact that the leading figures of those posting Edelgard is Rhea and Dimitri, both who are completely insane. Truth be told, if I was actually there in Fodlan . I would never choose to fight for Dimitri because it is obvious he is mentally unstable, the attitude of him and Rhea combined would easily make me defect to the Empire.

I don't find it that unbelievable that some of the students might have similar thought patterns.

[zuibangde]

1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

There is also all be fact that the leading figures of those posting Edelgard is Rhea and Dimitri, both who are completely insane. Truth be told, if I was actually there in Fodlan . I would never choose to fight for Dimitri because it is obvious he is mentally unstable, the attitude of him and Rhea combined would easily make me defect to the Empire.

 

You're simplifying defection way too much. Nobody defects simply because another country's interests align with theirs. If that happens, the world would be in a constant state of chaos. Millions of Americans were against the war in the Middle East but they didn't just decide to pack and leave the US or defect to another country. Soldiers were sent to war against their wishes and died doing so. The point is, the game's portrayal of 'defection' is utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. I don't see any of them defecting. At most, probably not volunteer to fight in the war or maybe attempt to start a civil war/uprising within their own country during a period of chaos. 

Also, they're not fighting for Dimitri?? The students in AM are fighting for their country. Their leader just happens to be insane. You're telling me that if your country is being invaded but your leader/president is insane, you'll go 'Eh. I guess I'll join the country that's invading us'.

I'd also argue that Edelgard is far from being mentally stable. It's pretty clear that she suffers from mental issues too, they're just not as apparent. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by zuibangde

[Darkmoon6789]

11 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

You're simplifying defection way too much. Nobody defects simply because another country's interests align with theirs. If that happens, the world would be in a constant state of chaos. Millions of Americans were against the war in the Middle East but they didn't just decide to pack and leave the US or defect to another country. Soldiers were sent to war against their wishes and died doing so. The point is, the game's portrayal of 'defection' is utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. I don't see any of them defecting. At most, probably not volunteer to fight in the war or maybe attempt to start a civil war/uprising within their own country during a period of chaos. 

Also, they're not fighting for Dimitri?? The students in AM are fighting for their country. Their leader just happens to be insane. You're telling me that if your country is being invaded but your leader/president is insane, you'll go 'Eh. I guess I'll join the country that's invading us'.

I'd also argue that Edelgard is far from being mentally stable. It's pretty clear that she suffers from mental issues too, they're just not as apparent. 

I was talking about what I would do if I somehow ended up in Fodlan during this period of time. I would agree that the recruitment system is pretty silly for the most part , with a few exceptions, and it can result in pretty ridiculous scenarios.

Granted, I do keep forgetting that Lysithea isn't technically part of the Black Eagles, she really does feel like a part of the Black Eagles to me.

Edelgard does suffer from her own trauma, but she is remarkably stable. Given what happened, logically speaking, she probably should be just as unstable as Dimitri, but she kind of isn't for whatever reason. The primary difference being Dimitri is obviously of his rocker and it is very easy to notice. Edelgard does suffer from a lot of different phobias due to her imprisonment and experimentation,  but she doesn't share this with most people, as she is a very closed off person.

Granted, there are also certain members of the Black Eagles who doesn't have a strong reason to fight for one side or another, and is probably only siding with the Empire because that happens to be the nation they are from. Primarily Lindhardt and Bernadetta. Even if in the case of Bernadetta , it is possible she is loyal to Edelgard because Edelgard imprisoned Bernadetta's father for what he did to Bernadetta and she is now free of his abuse. 

The thing with Dorothea is that while she doesn't necessarily want to fight it really comes across in her supports she is very close to Edelgard and appreciate the increased influence she wants to give commoners. 

About Ferdinand, I think he sticks around because he knows that if he proves himself useful to Edelgard, he is likely to keep his old position in the Imperial hierarchy. It seems like he wants to be a sort of advisor to Edelgard. 

[Timlugia]

8 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You realize CF exists right?  Your quoting act like cf doesn't exist which I don't like at all.  And the fact she has a quote with Edelgard is kind saying she has more of a bond with Edelgard and thus less likely to betray her then anything. Look at other unique dialogue options all of them are really close characters Shmamir vs Catherine, Annette vs Mercedes,  Felix vs Ingrid,  Sylvain vs Felix,  Raphel vs Ignatz,   ect. so I don't think the unique dialogue option helps the argument they would go separate ways much in fact I think it does the opposite.

You claimed that quote isn't a neutral stance, but only it is.

It's Constance before Byleth made any choice or influencing her.

All your other examples came from War phase, after they made their minds to follow Byleth, (no matter how unbelievable the reasons were) but this Constance one is from the part one.

I wasn't ignoring CF quotes, like most characters, post route skip she could be argued going both way.

But in Part One she clearly states she would stop Edelgard.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Timlugia

[omegaxis1]

26 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

You claimed that quote isn't a neutral stance, but only it is.

It's Constance before Byleth made any choice or influencing her.

All your other examples came from War phase, after they made their minds to follow Byleth, (no matter how unbelievable the reasons were) but this Constance one is from the part one.

Did you see Constance in Chapter 12 of the CF route? It's still during Part 1.

Quote

Constance: I knew nothing of Lady Edelgard's past or of her innermost feelings. But I know now. I persuaded her to tell all. It would have been rude to hound her relentlessly until she revealed herself, yes? Then that's certainly not what I did. Ahaha!

 

[Timlugia]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Did you see Constance in Chapter 12 of the CF route? It's still during Part 1.

 

Like I said, post split most characters could go both ways, Constance included. Likewise in any non CF she would say Empire's violence shaken her to the core.

But pre-split in Chapter 11 she did say she would stop Edelgard if given a chance,

which I considered as her neutral stance since she's hasn't been influenced by Byleth or other character's choices, contrary to what vikingsfan92 claimed

Quote

You are using Dialogue made for another route and expecting it to apply to be neutral or apply to CF

 

[vikingsfan92]

28 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

You claimed that quote isn't a neutral stance, but only it is.

It's Constance before Byleth made any choice or influencing her.

All your other examples came from War phase, after they made their minds to follow Byleth, (no matter how unbelievable the reasons were) but this Constance one is from the part one.

I wasn't ignoring CF quotes, like most characters, in War phase she could be argued going both way. But in Part One she clearly states she would stop Edelgard.

Here is the problem with assuming part 1 is neutral it isn't.   Because you are not in CF yet the game can't go to hard on showing you pro-CF stuff until you are actually in the route in case you don't go that route.  Imagine if there was a blue lions route and Verdent wind route splits  in the story as well it would be pretty jarring to see dialogue implying you are going a different route than the one you are going no?  Therefore you can't actually get a fair representation of CF before timeskip and using pre-timeskip dialouge that needs to let you go both ways is a bias in itself. 

And that aside you are totally glossing over things I and others have brought up like the fact pretty much all unique battle quotes are between close characters (Ignatz vs Raphiel for instance) and she has shown no real attempts to approach the other lords. And her stubborn nature to get what she wants and not relent until she gets it.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Timlugia said:

Like I said, post split most characters could go both ways, Constance included. Likewise in any non CF she would say Empire's violence shaken her to the core.

But pre-split in Chapter 11 she did say she would stop Edelgard if given a chance,

which I considered as her neutral stance since she's hasn't been influenced by Byleth or other character's choices, contrary to what vikingsfan92 claimed

However, you claimed that it makes little sense why she didn't join an anti-Imperial faction in CF, when it's clear why she wouldn't join an anti-Imperial faction in CF. 

Just because Constance states that she'd have opposed Edelgard had she known earlier doesn't mean that she would immediately choose an anti-Imperial faction. She does still also desire Edelgard to help restore her House.

[Dark Holy Elf]

 

On 5/26/2020 at 6:33 PM, Slyfox said:

Regardless, Edelgard betraying her classmates in the holy tomb and trying to kill them if they stand in her way is a very strong motivation to defect.

If you'd like to go into individual characters, please do so by all means! These forums are for sharing opinions (respectfully - as some people like to forget), not withholding them!

 

And I'll be perfectly honest with anyone I've debated with, I am STILL working my way through Blue Lions and have yet to play Crimson Flower!

The holy tomb sequence is really weird in Black Eagles and honestly doesn't make much sense. Like, why are we even fighting against Edelgard here? The students of the Eagles seem far more likely to obey their friend (and emperor!) than Rhea whom several expressed distrust of in Chapter 4, and which side Byleth supports is a choice for the player to make... which really should have been made before that fight! It's very clear that this was a battle that was written for the other routes (probably Dimitri's above all, given the reveal there) and that they were too lazy to change it for the Eagles route. And on both Crimson Flower and Silver Snow, this fight is never really mentioned again. That said, Edelgard explicitly tells her classmates she has no interest in fighting them, so only the fact that they're (apparently?) willing to risk their lives to protect a tomb puts them in any danger.

For what it's worth, I do think you should do a Crimson Flower run before making any definitive statements here. I really thought the sum body of the Eagles' support work flows into Crimson Flower much more, in particular the supports chains involving the various Eagles with Edelgard, but also ones like Dorothea/Ferdinand where she rails against the nobility and the church - that gets a big "oof" when she's defending the status quo on Silver Snow.

I'll address some of the students further below. I've already talked about Caspar in this thread.

21 hours ago, zuibangde said:

I think for almost all students, it makes little sense for them to defect their home country. This is why I didn’t like the recruiting students element of the game. It’s one thing to say each route is an alternate reality but it’s another to completely alter the characters’ personalities and beliefs so that they fit whichever ‘reality’ you’re currently playing. 
 

The most glaring example is BE students in SS and CF. 
 

With that being said, BE students fighting for Edelgard was the weirdest for me. Realistically, I don’t see Linhardt, Bernie and Dorothea volunteering to go fight in the war. Petra is basically a political hostage (and she realizes this) and it would’ve been the perfect time to create an uprising but nope. Ferdinand has obvious reasons (stated many times in this thread) for not sticking with Edelgard.

I don’t see them defecting but I also don’t see them willingly show up to fight in the war just cause of a reunion promise made 5 years ago.

Linhardt, Bernie, and Dorothea end up volunteering to fight in a war regardless of which route you're on and choices you make... either they're fighting for Byleth's faction, or they're defending Adrestia from invasion.

There is no route in the canon where they they abstain from fighting. None are fans of war, but it's not crazy that they have things that they might want to fight for anyway. Dorothea in particular to me feels an extremely natural ally of Edelgard; she hates nobility and she dislikes the church, and was orphaned because she didn't have a crest. The other two are less clear but I still find them much more credible on CF than SS. Bernadetta isn't particularly ideological, but is much more likely in my eyes to support her friends and country than not precisely for that reason (plus Edelgard arrested her father, a comment which she smiles as she makes). Linhardt has a good relationship with his (Edelgard-loyal) parents and openly admits that any course of action besides supporting her would be "too much effort".

As for Petra, she wants what's best for Brigid, but that doesn't necessarily mean an uprising. As per her B support with Edelgard (which I'm going to consider canon seeing as it happens on both Black Eagles routes), her dream is to meet with Edelgard when they're both rulers, and be shaking hands. Proving her nation's worth in Edelgard's war (a war against the church of Fodlan which she has little regard for) is certainly a good way to accomplish this, while joining a tattered faction to fight against Adrestia (the start of Silver Snow) seems far less likely to accomplish her goals. It should also be mentioned that she's no longer a political hostage after the timeskip, and the administration which held her as a hostage is one which Edelgard has swept aside, so that would be a strange grudge for her to hold.

[haarhaarhaar]

On 5/27/2020 at 3:29 PM, zuibangde said:

You're simplifying defection way too much. Nobody defects simply because another country's interests align with theirs. If that happens, the world would be in a constant state of chaos. Millions of Americans were against the war in the Middle East but they didn't just decide to pack and leave the US or defect to another country. Soldiers were sent to war against their wishes and died doing so. The point is, the game's portrayal of 'defection' is utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. I don't see any of them defecting. At most, probably not volunteer to fight in the war or maybe attempt to start a civil war/uprising within their own country during a period of chaos. 

I think one of the big problems with recruitment in 3H is that joining a different class at school during peacetime and fighting your homeland during wartime are nowhere near equivalent, and yet the former inevitably results in the latter. But 3H isn't like the world of today, where borders and international relations are far more rigorously defined, and the average citizen isn't school friends with the heirs to the three nations that span their continent.

A flip side to the nobility system in Fodlan is that, with the potential exception of Faerghus (most of its key noble houses internalise the feudal system of knighthood and fealty), house loyalty is at least a competing motivator to national loyalty, and houses are themselves riven with internal conflicts and multiple branches. The current generation of students begins to buck that selfish trend (like Lorenz' holistic view of what benefits Leicester compared to his father's concern only for House Gloucester) but in the world of Fodlan, defection could and did happen all the time, for exactly reasons like perceived benefit. For example, the House Daphnel split forming House Galatea and the House Hrym revolt. If monastery quests are anything to go by, in both Part I and II you spend time taking down deserters from your army that start ransacking their local towns (not quite defecting to another country, but it demonstrates looser control than more regimented modern armies, and even then recent wars have still had lots of deserters).

Even for commoners, the Fodlan war holds the potential to shake up the established order completely, and it's in everyone's interest to be on the right side of that. Obviously, plenty of characters are still motivated by patriotism, ideological concerns etc. to fight for their home, but I don't think defection is out of the question for all of them.

Mercedes is a good example - she already has suspicions (Monastery dialogue) before Ch. 6 that Jeritza is Emile, and her paralogue proves she will do things otherwise out of character in order to talk to him. Guilt over leaving him behind (that she actually expresses in several different supports, independent of route) is, in her case I think, a strong enough motivator for betraying Faerghus. And her love of the church is strained by, but not incompatible with, joining Edelgard because the church can and does end up existing and providing alms after Rhea's death. Faerghus gave her a home after she fled the Empire, so it's not as if she feels no patriotism, but joining the Empire in the war is also a pretty reasonable step in her emotional journey.

A canon example is Acheron, famous for being a "weathervane" and advantageously positioned between the Empire and the Alliance, who shows up on Claude's behest, but leaves Judith to die in CF the moment he thinks that the tide of the battle has shifted (he also dies trying to pincer you on the Myrddin bridge in other routes, but at least there he's fighting on the same side for the entire duration of that battle, and the betrayal technically happens offscreen). Ironically it is his retreat that shifts the battle in Edelgard's favour, but his betrayal is one of sheer opportunity, and while most playable characters have more backbone than Acheron, it isn't unbelievable to think that they too could betray their homeland for more substantial reasons. The fact that Lysithea, Ashe and Lorenz can actually be persuaded to do that (depending on certain conditions) is at least evidence that loyalty to one's homeland/faction isn't an overruling motive for everyone.

 

I agree that defection isn't fleshed out nearly enough though - some other things the game doesn't really care to talk about include why nothing happens to the families of noble defectors, why Alois is left to wander Fodlan for 5 years without being punished by a vindictive Rhea in CF, and how all defectors are brought into the fold immediately and without question, despite some of them having only turned coat when they show up in Part II. The very act of deserting is really strange for some - Linhardt just rocks up in non-CF Part II, despite having lived at home in the Empire for the previous five years just knocking about. 

[paladin21]

I think the final "rosters" would look like this:

The Empire would have some people that would join willingly and other who would join because of the circumstances:

Spoiler

Obviously, Edelgard, Hubert and Jeritza are here willingly.

Constance would join the Empire to restore her house, and Edelgard is the fastest way.

Dorothea is too attached to the Opera, so she'd have gone to Enbarr at the beginning of the war. So would Manuela, probably. Both of them would have to join the ranks to keep their people safe there.

Bernardetta has her father arrested, so she can go home. Whenever you have her in any non-CF route, she gets anxious when approaching Enbarr as to what his father's fate would be, since he mistreated her too badly. More than siding with Edelgard, she'd be siding against her father.

Ashe and Lorenz would join the Empire because their lands border the Empire. The first stages of war would off the balance with the Empire getting stronger, and they would switch sides just like in the SS route. The Lonato affair would also motivate Ashe to turn on the Church.

Hanneman's views on the emblems would make him consider heavily to side with Edelgard, but I can't see him joining the Army until there was no other choice.

Most people from the Kingdom would stay loyal to their house:

Spoiler

Dimitri, Dedue and Gilbert are a given here.

While Sylvain dislikes the current status quo, I think his ties to his lands, and his duty as the border watch, are too strong to sever.

Annette's ties to her father and friends would probably make her stay with the Kingdom (even though she was one of the two to switch sides in an early draft).

Ingrid's desire to become a knight in her country is the main reason to stay here.

Hapi would join the Kingdom to oppose Cornelia directly. Just like Constance with the Empire, she'd choose the best option to fulfill her goals.

The Alliance is also most likely to stay the same:

Spoiler

Claude would stay to try to pervent it from falling apart, till the time comes to go home.

Hilda is just too loyal to her brother and, well, not betraying the Alliance is canon for her (even in AM she's supposed to be at the last stand).

Raphael, Ignatz and Leonie have people they care about in the Alliance. Just like Dorothea and Manuela, they'd join the Army to prevent the war from getting to their families and friends.

Unless Lysithea developed a bond with Edelgard, it's highly unlikely for her to switch sides. In her eyes, it was the Empire who tortured her (she knows nothing of TWSITD by the start of the story, and not much more as it develops). If she had bonded with Edelgard, I can actually see her convincing her parents to side with the Empire.

Balthus has strong ties to the Alliance, even though hes an outlaw of sorts. Being friends with Holst from childhood would more than likely lead him to stay there. However Lysithea's path would also play an important role in his chosen path.

The church of Seiros wouldn't actually lose anyone:

Spoiler

Seteth and Flayn would stay there since is a family matter.

Catherine and Cyril for their devotion to Rhea.

Alois and Shamir wouldn't have a great reason to leave.

I think Mercedes is more likely to fight for the church than for Faerghus. They're allies, but she'd miss the Gronder fields party.

The gatekeeper has a job to do.

The Resistance would be people opposing the Empire with no defined loyalty:

Spoiler

Having his house disbanded would have taken a big toll on Ferdinand, making him the de facto leader of this group (even if it's not an actual faction).

Caspar would see Edelgard's actions as a betrayal, so he'd sever ties with her and his family for supporting her.

Linhardt doesn't like war, but he would have been dragged along by Caspar.

Felix wouldn't turn on the Kingdom having strong ties with both Ingrid and Sylvain, but he'd totally reject the idea of following Dimitri in his mad state or his father. He would protect the Kingdom in his own terms.

Finally, I think some characters would stay neutral to the fight:

Spoiler

Petra would return to Briggid and both sides would try to sway her to either side, but none would want another war front, so I think they'll leave it as a stalemate.

Marianne would go missing.

Yuri would dissapear to take care of his people. He wouldn't mind playing on all sides at the same time.

Anna is the true neutral here. There's more cash to be made by selling to everyone.

That pretty much sums it.

[Timlugia]

Petra probably joins whoever promised independence and winning since that's her end goal.

Quote

The holy tomb sequence is really weird in Black Eagles and honestly doesn't make much sense. Like, why are we even fighting against Edelgard here? The students of the Eagles seem far more likely to obey their friend (and emperor!) than Rhea whom several expressed distrust of in Chapter 4, and which side Byleth supports is a choice for the player to make...

I think we need to remember that Edelgard deployed Demonic Beast here against player, which by this point is known to be human twisted by the crest stones. That alone could convince many students to fight her*

Also while some students hold suspicion toward Rhea, there is equal if not stronger accusation that Edelgard is either "the mastermind" or at least working for them at the point (since we don't know who TWISTD is yet)

 

* I think it's interesting none of the character highlights the Demonic Beasts being used as weapons here. In fact, strangely topic of empire using demonic beast seems being glossed over in every route, no one other than Hanneman ever comments on it despite it should be a major topic in the war. When I first played CF, I was expecting Edelgrad would give some kind defense or at least explanation about using such terrible weapons in the Holy Tomb, and reason we don't see them in this route, yet it was never brought up. Not even during paralouge Darkness Beneath The Earth Hubert ever discussed it.

Like why did Edelgard use such weapons? How deep did empire collaborate with TWISTD? Who were the victims? Why and when did Edelgard suddenly stop using them in CF?

And to the extension, how did Sothis know about Demonic Beasts? Which shouldn't existed until long after her death. Even Byleth could question her this in Tower of Black Winds  yet she never answers you.

[omegaxis1]

This is why I keep repeating that it makes much more sense for how CF gets the students to be willing to defect to their side, because everyone witnesses the moment Rhea loses it. They see with their own eyes how Rhea turned into a monster, and then learn from Edelgard that a monster has been the archbishop for over a thousand years. It's hard to accept, but they saw the truth. That's why they make the choice to side with Edelgard BEFORE the war officially begins. 

It makes little sense for any of the Golden Deers to side go to Azure Moon's side at all. Like, why? 

It's also hard to understand why the Blue Lions would also defect to Verdant Wind's side, too. 

You could make some reasons why the Black Eagles would defect from the Empire, but you can also make equal arguments why they would stay. 

4 hours ago, paladin21 said:

I disagree with much of this, but I won't really deconstruct this. 

[Timlugia]

31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is why I keep repeating that it makes much more sense for how CF gets the students to be willing to defect to their side, because everyone witnesses the moment Rhea loses it. They see with their own eyes how Rhea turned into a monster, and then learn from Edelgard that a monster has been the archbishop for over a thousand years. It's hard to accept, but they saw the truth. That's why they make the choice to side with Edelgard BEFORE the war officially begins. 

This I actually want to discuss further: You are assuming everyone considers the dragon as a monster, but is that really so?

Immaculate One is the center of Church of Seiros's worship, they called her the emissary of the goddess, and heavily featured on church arts and worships, such as on the flag and murals.

We also have Jeralt narrating the world building for us:

Quote

Long ago, the guardian Seiros made an appearance during this moon. She had been summoned by the goddess, whose soul was suffering as the flames of war raged across Fódlan. Some believe that high in the sky above Seiros, the Immaculate One's mighty wings are what powered the strong winds carrying the guardian and her forces into battle.

It seems that for many, especially those who followed Serios's faith, not only Immaculate One wasn't considered as a monster, but a guardian sent by the goddess. While some might be dread of her transforming such as Edelgard considering her an enemy to human race, Church believers might actually be encouraged by the sight of Immaculate One, viewing it as some kind prophecy fulfilled.

Furthermore, wyvern seems to be quite common animals in Fodlan and Almyra, making a true dragon less alien to their people than to us.

Or compared to some previous Fire Emblem titles, such as Archanea series, dragons are also worshiped. Yet few actually ever met a dragon in the later titles since they were mostly in hiding. Chorm and his company never met a real manakete until they found Nowi, yet no one considers Nowi or Tiki a "monster" because dragon is part of their core religion already. This deal could be similar to how some Fodlan people reacted to Rhea.

In the analogue the real world religion, many religions feature deities or powerful beings able to transform to non-humans, or are non-human taking human forms. For example, how Naga was based on south Asian religion. Had a snake god really appear, she might actually attract quite some followers while others grew weary of her in the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nāga

 

TLDR: While some people would definitely consider dragon Rhea a monster, I doubt that's universal stance since their core religion worships dragon (particularly Immaculate One) to begin with.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Timlugia

[zuibangde]

57 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

t makes little sense for any of the Golden Deers to side go to Azure Moon's side at all. Like, why? 

It's also hard to understand why the Blue Lions would also defect to Verdant Wind's side, too. 

Simply because at that point it’s the Empire vs the two countries? Although there’s no formal alliance/agreement between the two countries, it seemed a lot more like ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’ type of agreement.

Also disagree with how you keep saying It makes sense for students to defect in CF. Just because they don’t agree with Rhea or the church doesn’t mean they’re willing to kill their friends and families and memories to achieve it. I feel like you’re treating people as purely logically motivated (imo defecting just because you see Rhea transform isn’t that logical but whatever) and completely disregard emotional sides of things.

Edited May 29, 2020 by zuibangde

[Darkmoon6789]

I have assumed that either the crest beasts in the Imperial army was either volunteers or made by the Agarthans independently from Edelgard and later lended to her to help with the war effort.

Edelgard accepts their presence because they provide a military advantage as she considers achieving victory and reshaping the society in Fodlan to be more important in the long run.

I don't actually view the use of monsters in your army as inherently evil, if for example the people who transformed were volunteers. It would be a lot better, morally speaking. It also seems from the dialogue following the holy tomb incident in the crimson flower that Edelgard will allow those who are not willing to fight for her to leave, and that the people who stay do so willingly. For this reason, I can say with confidence. She doesn't have a tendency to force people to fight for her. People are willing to do a lot for ideals they believe in, I could definitely see some being willing to make this sort of sacrifice as in most cases, it doesn't seem like the transformation is permanent. 

But the game never fully explains how exactly these demonic beasts were created , so this is just speculation. But I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions that they were all kidnapped civilians or something. A lot of people in the universe jumped to conclusions when it came to Edelgard and a lot of those conclusions have turned out to be wrong. Once you examine the situation further.

17 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

This I actually want to discuss further: You are assuming everyone considers the dragon as a monster, but is that really so?

Immaculate One is the center of Church of Seiros's worship, they called her the emissary of the goddess, and heavily featured on church arts and worships, such as on the flag and murals.

We also have Jeralt narrating the world building for us:

It seems that for many, especially those who followed Serios's faith, not only Immaculate One wasn't considered as a monster, but a guardian sent by the goddess. While some might be dread of her transforming such as Edelgard considering her an enemy to human race, Church believers might actually be encouraged by the sight of Immaculate One, viewing it as some kind prophecy fulfilled.

Furthermore, wyvern seems to be quite common animals in Fodlan and Almyra, making a true dragon less alien to their people than to us.

In the analogue the real world religion, many religions feature deities or powerful beings able to transform to non-humans, or are non-human taking human forms. For example, how Naga was based on south Asian religion. Had a snake god really appear, she might actually attract quite some followers while others grew weary of her in the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nāga

When it comes to Edelgard and Dragons. I think the problem isn't necessarily that Rhea is a dragon, but that she is an immortal despot who has ruled Fodlan for over a millennia, deciding that she knows better than humanity, makes decisions for them and tells everyone who oppose are without mercy. Rhea has also limited technological progress in Fodlan for reasons she never disclosed to her subjects and has been lying to them the entire time. Even if she thinks it is for their own good.

Edelgard is someone who embraces humanity and mortality, and I get the impression she finds the idea of the ruler living forever to be abhorrent. Especially another species, deciding what is best for another because they consider themselves above them. This applies not only to dragons, but the very concept of gods as Edelgard doesn't believe anyone has an inherent right to rule because of circumstances of birth. So, she rejects the very concept of divine authority, the same as she rejects the right of the nobility and the monarchy to stand above the commoners. Edelgard always intended to be the final emperor who inherited their position through her bloodline. Her war is very much about liberation for humanity from the tyranny of dragons who considers themselves above them, as well as the liberation of commoners from the nobility, whose attitude towards the commoners is very much similar as what the Dragons have towards humanity. That they are inherently superior and it is their role to protect those beneath them.

You're right in that some people would actually appreciate being protected by such a powerful beings such as the immaculate one, this is where the primary conflict between the two factions takes shape. As some people want to be protected by something stronger than them and they want these beings, whenever dragons, gods, or the nobility, to make decisions on their behalf as they do think they have that right.

While I haven't played awakening, I did read a little bit about Naga. To my understanding, while she is worshipped as the goddess by humanity. Naga is the complete opposite of Rhea as she has never claimed to be a god and the worship of her did arise independently of any design by her instead of the deliberately created church, like was created by Seiros with the expressed purpose of making her mother a goddess. Naga deliberately doesn't interfere in the affairs of humanity because she doesn't think it is her right to rule over them. Rhea is the complete opposite in this regard, as she thinks she needs to rule over and guide humanity for their own good. 

I guess I am trying to say but Edelgard probably wouldn't have the same problem with Naga as with Rhea as she doesn't rule over humanity with an iron fist

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Timlugia said:

I think we need to remember that Edelgard deployed Demonic Beast here against player, which by this point is known to be human twisted by the crest stones. That alone could convince many students to fight her*

Also while some students hold suspicion toward Rhea, there is equal if not stronger accusation that Edelgard is either "the mastermind" or at least working for them at the point (since we don't know who TWISTD is yet)

 

* I think it's interesting none of the character highlights the Demonic Beasts being used as weapons here. In fact, strangely topic of empire using demonic beast seems being glossed over in every route, no one other than Hanneman ever comments on it despite it should be a major topic in the war. When I first played CF, I was expecting Edelgrad would give some kind defense or at least explanation about using such terrible weapons in the Holy Tomb, and reason we don't see them in this route, yet it was never brought up. Not even during paralouge Darkness Beneath The Earth Hubert ever discussed it.

I'm glad you put in that asterisked comment because that was going to be my response. Both in the battle itself and thereafter, her use of them isn't actually noted. If the students had used that as a reason to fight, I'd be happier with the sequence. But IIRC the beasts don't even appear in the cutscene; you only see them once the battle is joined.

As you note the game is pretty inconsistent on how seriously we're supposed to take the demonic beasts, and there are some key unanswered questions. Are they all made from people? If so, are the people willing or not? What about the wild ones? What about the ones Gloucester uses? Can people survive the transformation? (Miklan doesn't and it's implied the Faerghus soldiers in Field of Revenge don't expect to, but Edelgard does in Azure Moon.)

Without these answers, I'll admit I'm fairly numb to them myself (and the fact that characters I consider to be quite moral such as Dorothea are seen fighting alongside them adds to this). Weapons are weapons, and nothing in war is pretty. Even the worst interpretation of demonic beasts makes them less terrible as weapons than many other things humans have developed (bombs which kill civilians in large numbers, for one). If the game wanted to sell me on them as particularly vile, there should have been some scenes of unwilling sacrifices being turned into them during the war phase. Without that, we can only guess, and I suspect the guesses will line up with people's opinions on who they think is responsible and their opinions on those characters.

[Timlugia]

1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

 

I think it's a little derailed here:

I brought out Naga fully knowing she has very different style than Rhea or Sothis. My point is that human worshiping non human beings even in the real world, Naga happen to be an actual deity some culture worships. Had a snake god turned out to be real, I am sure many people will start to follow her, while others might indeed call her a monster.

Same would be said for Rhea, when she transformed into a dragon, some like Edelgard obvious would call her a monster, but the others, like Church believers, both students and non students would likely considered her to be their leader.

And in Awakening Chorm and company didn't get scared by manaketes or view them as monster despite they have never seen one before Nowi.

One interesting note is that many people don't seem to realize Rhea is actually Seiros even after the transformation, even among her own soldiers. And even Claude had his doubts on who Immaculate One really is despite seeing the dragon form battle himself.

Quote

Church Soldier: Lady Rhea...

Seiros: Call me Seiros now. I am no longer the archbishop, but rather a warrior.

Church Soldier: Yes, Lady Seiros. Because of the rain, we have not yet confirmed the position of our enemy or of the Kingdom army...

 

[Slyfox]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I disagree with much of this, but I won't really deconstruct this. 

For me, that tier list is like 80-85% accurate. I'd make some changes but by and large it's how I see things.

2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I don't actually view the use of monsters in your army as inherently evil, if for example the people who transformed were volunteers. It would be a lot better, morally speaking. It also seems from the dialogue following the holy tomb incident in the crimson flower that Edelgard will allow those who are not willing to fight for her to leave, and that the people who stay do so willingly. For this reason, I can say with confidence. She doesn't have a tendency to force people to fight for her. People are willing to do a lot for ideals they believe in, I could definitely see some being willing to make this sort of sacrifice as in most cases, it doesn't seem like the transformation is permanent. 

But the game never fully explains how exactly these demonic beasts were created , so this is just speculation. But I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions that they were all kidnapped civilians or something. A lot of people in the universe jumped to conclusions when it came to Edelgard and a lot of those conclusions have turned out to be wrong. Once you examine the situation further.

What evidence do we have that this is not a terrible thing and that people volunteered, besides Dedue and some Kingdom soldiers when they were pushed into a corner? Maurice has been stuck as a demonic beast for nearly a thousand years, Miklan shows us that it's a painful transformation, the students in Garreg Mach were fleeing for theirs lives in the chapel and those demonic beats that were attacking them are strongly implied to have been forcibly turned by Kronya and the Slitherers. The Empire used demonic beasts while initiating the war, when they weren't even disadvantaged. And I hear Edelgard doesn't use them in Crimson Flower because Byleth convinced her not to, or something along those lines? If they had volunteers, it would feasibly happen in all routes, including Crimson Flower.

What information we have on these transformations is bad. It would be unwise to conclude that a lack of overall information automatically makes it excusable or morally okay. It's okay to love Edelgard, but let's not twist the bad things she does into good things so that we can keep viewing her in a 100% pure light. I'll use myself as an example. My favorite character in the game is Rhea and even though I think she is mostly good, she's still done a ton of harm to Fodlan and it's people, even though I understand where she is coming from and empathize with her. I'll take Claude as a leader over her any day.

People could debate Edelgard's actions, right or wrong, until the moon turns green. But if nothing in the game suggests that demonic transformation is a good thing, then there is little point in debating it.

Hey, maybe I'm talking nonsense, since as you all know I don't have the full picture yet. Can anyone let me know of any examples of transforming people/using demonic beasts being seen as a morally good thing, in Azure Moon or Crimson Flower?

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm glad you put in that asterisked comment because that was going to be my response. Both in the battle itself and thereafter, her use of them isn't actually noted. If the students had used that as a reason to fight, I'd be happier with the sequence. But IIRC the beasts don't even appear in the cutscene; you only see them once the battle is joined.

As you note the game is pretty inconsistent on how seriously we're supposed to take the demonic beasts, and there are some key unanswered questions. Are they all made from people? If so, are the people willing or not? What about the wild ones? What about the ones Gloucester uses? Can people survive the transformation? (Miklan doesn't and it's implied the Faerghus soldiers in Field of Revenge don't expect to, but Edelgard does in Azure Moon.)

Without these answers, I'll admit I'm fairly numb to them myself (and the fact that characters I consider to be quite moral such as Dorothea are seen fighting alongside them adds to this). Weapons are weapons, and nothing in war is pretty. Even the worst interpretation of demonic beasts makes them less terrible as weapons than many other things humans have developed (bombs which kill civilians in large numbers, for one). If the game wanted to sell me on them as particularly vile, there should have been some scenes of unwilling sacrifices being turned into them during the war phase. Without that, we can only guess, and I suspect the guesses will line up with people's opinions on who they think is responsible and their opinions on those characters.

Some of what I said above applies here, but I'll elaborate on some points, such as the wild ones. To me, all that I've seen so far shows demonic beasts (and white beasts) that have been transformed from people as having some sort of muscle fiber-like skin. The wild ones mostly appear to be animals or monsters that have somehow been magically enlarged, and their skin is much like any normal creature would have. That's a key difference that I've seen.

What kind of skin did the demonic beasts belonging to Count Gloucester use? That would be very interesting to know.

And yes, the game certainly needed to focus more on the beasts in general.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Slyfox

[paladin21]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is why I keep repeating that it makes much more sense for how CF gets the students to be willing to defect to their side, because everyone witnesses the moment Rhea loses it. They see with their own eyes how Rhea turned into a monster, and then learn from Edelgard that a monster has been the archbishop for over a thousand years. It's hard to accept, but they saw the truth. That's why they make the choice to side with Edelgard BEFORE the war officially begins.

The key point in all this is Byleth. If he joins Edelgard, Rhea snaps. If he stays with Rhea, Edelgard resorts to, at least, questionable tactics. When Rhea transforms in CF, she seeks to destroy and punish, thus making more likely for people to side against her; but when she transforms in the other routes, she's trying to protect someone, which would make her allies as a guardian that was always ready to protect them if the need was dire.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It makes little sense for any of the Golden Deers to side go to Azure Moon's side at all. Like, why? 

It's also hard to understand why the Blue Lions would also defect to Verdant Wind's side, too.

With this I agree. I don't think most of them would switch sides to the other country, even if they're seen as allies. The only exceptions I posted didn't defect from the Kingdom to the Alliance or viceversa.

I think Ashe and Lorenz are almost canon to side with the Empire for a bunch of reasons each, like Ashe's disappointment with the Church (feeling betrayed is a very strong motivation) and both of them remaining loyal to their houses, which had switched sides. Since they are the only two characters that, if recruited from a different house and having Byleth turn on the Empire, join the Empire, I'd say they're set canon to join the Empire.

Like I said before, Felix wouldn't follow suit with the Kingdom. His bound to his friends Ingrid and Sylvain, but his relationship with his father is tense to say the least. He blames him for the death of his brother and has no interest in knighthood. And though he actually cares for Dimitri, I don't think he'd follow him while he blindly charges all across Fodlan. Felix would fight for his friends and family, but not following the codes of chivalry his father abides to, or the orders of someone who he's seen as a lunatic for more time that people give him credit for.

With Mercedes, I took a little gambit there. She might as well have stayed with the Kingdom forces, but I see her more likely to devote herself to the Church and support as an ally to make some distance from her adoptive father in order not to get married. The Church is the closest ally to the Kingdom, so she wouldn't be too far from home. I don't see her relationship with her brother strong enough for her to defect, but she'd surely try to lure him to her side.

30 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

For me, that tier list is like 80-85% accurate. I'd make some changes but by and large it's how I see things.

A few of them were difficult to place in one faction or another, like Linhardt. He would be likely home sleeping during the war. He's a pacificist and doesn't seem to have any issue with the status quo as long as he's allowed to do what he likes (sleeping, fishing, reading...). I just thought that having him kidnapped by Caspar would be quite funny and not that out of character for Caspar either (he actually kidnapped Bernardetta in their supports). Just like that, Linhardt could have gone either way, but I wanted to choose a side for each rather then making a line just for him, and maybe Lysithea.

The case with Caspar would be one of personal growth. If his father were present during Edelgard's attack, Caspar would have undoubtedly sided with them. But that not being the case, he would have taken time for himself. I think he would have been protecting villages from being pillaged during the war from either brigands, defectors or even battallions from either army, and after seen the effects of war in the population, he'd join the Resistance. He wouldn't be bound to either the Kingdom, the Alliance or the Church, he'd be just fighting the Empire.

[haarhaarhaar]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm glad you put in that asterisked comment because that was going to be my response. Both in the battle itself and thereafter, her use of them isn't actually noted. If the students had used that as a reason to fight, I'd be happier with the sequence. But IIRC the beasts don't even appear in the cutscene; you only see them once the battle is joined.

As you note the game is pretty inconsistent on how seriously we're supposed to take the demonic beasts, and there are some key unanswered questions. Are they all made from people? If so, are the people willing or not? What about the wild ones? What about the ones Gloucester uses? Can people survive the transformation? (Miklan doesn't and it's implied the Faerghus soldiers in Field of Revenge don't expect to, but Edelgard does in Azure Moon.)

Without these answers, I'll admit I'm fairly numb to them myself (and the fact that characters I consider to be quite moral such as Dorothea are seen fighting alongside them adds to this). Weapons are weapons, and nothing in war is pretty. Even the worst interpretation of demonic beasts makes them less terrible as weapons than many other things humans have developed (bombs which kill civilians in large numbers, for one). If the game wanted to sell me on them as particularly vile, there should have been some scenes of unwilling sacrifices being turned into them during the war phase. Without that, we can only guess, and I suspect the guesses will line up with people's opinions on who they think is responsible and their opinions on those characters.

Yeah these are really good questions about the beasts - as well as Gloucester with giant wolves, Almyra is somehow able to control giant birds (in Edelgard's paralogue and Hilda's IIRC). Maurice doesn't transform back to human form, but the other humans who went beast mode do (Miklan, Edelgard, the students in Ch. 9). How come crest-bearing Edelgard managed to turn at all? 

How come Macuil can remain transformed in the middle of nowhere for a thousand years, but short transformation exhausts Rhea and transformation is impossible for Seteth and Flayn? The BESF never fight directly alongside monsters, even when it would make sense to, and Chapter 11 should see you fight alongside Rhea's Golems against Edelgard, because they're supposed to be a security system for the Holy Tomb. What exactly are Rhea's Golems anyway, and how do they operate? They're presumably some kind of automaton, but unlike how Titanus are explained, it's never said what or who is supplying them energy, or how they were built a thousand years before Cornelia managed something similar. 

1 hour ago, Slyfox said:

Some of what I said above applies here, but I'll elaborate on some points, such as the wild ones. To me, all that I've seen so far shows demonic beasts (and white beasts) that have been transformed from people as having some sort of muscle fiber-like skin. The wild ones mostly appear to be animals or monsters that have somehow been magically enlarged, and their skin is much like any normal creature would have. That's a key difference that I've seen.

What kind of skin did the demonic beasts belonging to Count Gloucester use? That would be very interesting to know.

 

Demonic Beasts have masks, which get broken off when you barrier break them, but normal beasts do not. I take the masks as being symbolic of some kind of forced magical control, which  gets destabilised at the moment of barrier break, but recovers after (there's normally a bit of the mask left). It explains why their barriers start at complete as opposed to normal giant wolves and birds, but giant beasts also have full barriers, and barrier breaks work the same way regardless of whether a beast is under TWSITD control so I may just be over-reading into game mechanics.

It's also true that demonic beasts (those under the effect of the Agarthans' artificial Crest Stones) seem to be the only ones that use magic attacks (fire breath, wind strikes etc), which makes sense if they've been refined using magic. Indech, Macuil and Rhea can do it too, but I take that as being Nabatean so more in control of their powers. Maurice, Miklan, Dedue and naturally appearing beasts use physical attacks, and what I guess is naturally produced poison. 

EDIT: I forgot about Aelfric, whose Umbral Beast form is capable of magic and physical attacks. If anything it seems to confirm that the type of item used to transform inevitably affects the type of beast produced. 

4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

But the game never fully explains how exactly these demonic beasts were created , so this is just speculation. But I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions that they were all kidnapped civilians or something. A lot of people in the universe jumped to conclusions when it came to Edelgard and a lot of those conclusions have turned out to be wrong. Once you examine the situation further.

If we're counting the DLC, then Yuri's paralogue demonstrates unwilling soldiers/mercenaries turning into Demonic Beasts. Myson then calls this "experiment" successful. We can't declare that no one ever volunteered for this, but it really doesn't seem likely.

It's still true that we aren't made to judge Demonic Beasts in Part II nearly as forcefully as in Ch. 9, maybe because they are already well-established in-universe by Part II even though the player doesn't see their usage in the time skip. It probably ought to be a warning sign for the player though, even if the game makes little comment.

Edited May 29, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[omegaxis1]

9 hours ago, Timlugia said:

This I actually want to discuss further: You are assuming everyone considers the dragon as a monster, but is that really so?

Immaculate One is the center of Church of Seiros's worship, they called her the emissary of the goddess, and heavily featured on church arts and worships, such as on the flag and murals.

We also have Jeralt narrating the world building for us:

It seems that for many, especially those who followed Serios's faith, not only Immaculate One wasn't considered as a monster, but a guardian sent by the goddess. While some might be dread of her transforming such as Edelgard considering her an enemy to human race, Church believers might actually be encouraged by the sight of Immaculate One, viewing it as some kind prophecy fulfilled.

Furthermore, wyvern seems to be quite common animals in Fodlan and Almyra, making a true dragon less alien to their people than to us.

Or compared to some previous Fire Emblem titles, such as Archanea series, dragons are also worshiped. Yet few actually ever met a dragon in the later titles since they were mostly in hiding. Chorm and his company never met a real manakete until they found Nowi, yet no one considers Nowi or Tiki a "monster" because dragon is part of their core religion already. This deal could be similar to how some Fodlan people reacted to Rhea.

In the analogue the real world religion, many religions feature deities or powerful beings able to transform to non-humans, or are non-human taking human forms. For example, how Naga was based on south Asian religion. Had a snake god really appear, she might actually attract quite some followers while others grew weary of her in the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nāga

 

TLDR: While some people would definitely consider dragon Rhea a monster, I doubt that's universal stance since their core religion worships dragon (particularly Immaculate One) to begin with.

 

5 hours ago, paladin21 said:

The key point in all this is Byleth. If he joins Edelgard, Rhea snaps. If he stays with Rhea, Edelgard resorts to, at least, questionable tactics. When Rhea transforms in CF, she seeks to destroy and punish, thus making more likely for people to side against her; but when she transforms in the other routes, she's trying to protect someone, which would make her allies as a guardian that was always ready to protect them if the need was dire.

Yeah, here's the thing. The Immaculate One is regarded in legend. No one actually thinks that they actually exist. And they absolutely NEVER would have assumed that they would be hiding under the guise of a human.

Regardless of how you try to rationalize Rhea's actions, the lady literally LOST it. She literally went to call Byleth a "failure" and then said that she has passed "judgment" and will "rip [Byleth's] chest open" to take his heart. The fact is, Rhea was always scary to the students, but now they see her not only declare something incredibly morbid, and then turning into a giant monster. The ONLY times humans have seen humans turning into monsters before was with Miklan. Humans have seen Demonic Beasts before as well. But humans are now seeing that Rhea was turning into a giant demonic beast.

Doesn't matter if they hear about it in legends. In practice, they would be terrified by the sight. And that is why they all were willing to actually hear Edelgard out, and learn what it is she is trying to do. Keep in mind that unlike other routes, where Edelgard never gets the ability to explain, now they are willing to hear her out, and thus make a decision based on what they know.

And Edelgard explains that Rhea's been the Immaculate One all this time, and she's been using her powers to manipulate Fodlan.

It makes sense why people would take this and consider if she could be right. I wanna point out to how one of the Imperial Soldiers actually expresses the horror of learning what Rhea is:

Quote

I'm a soldier, but I had to think long and hard about this one. Since birth, I've believed in the teachings of Seiros without ever questioning them. But Her Majesty's words are true. To think that the archbishop can take on such a monstrous form...

It's a reality breaker. 

People don't know if the Church is actually as good as it was at all. Rhea has been passing judgments on other humans for so long, but she herself isn't human. 

Yeah, Byleth is a big factor into this, and even Edelgard and Hubert acknowledge this. But it doesn't change that every student in CF has bigger reasons to be willing to defect from their nation and fight by Edelgard's side. Cause they know that what they are fighting for is bigger than their nation. It's for the kind of cause that determines the fate of mankind itself.