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Who should have betrayed their faction?


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That's on ONE route and not the other 3. Stop treating CF as though it's the only option when 3 other, equally viable options exist. I've said it before, I will say it again: In a game like 3H you HAVE TO look at the characters through the lens of all of the routes, not just your preferred one. This isn't a if you want to because anything else is a disservice to the majority of other paths and acts as though they don't exist in favor of your baby route.

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6 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah these are really good questions about the beasts - as well as Gloucester with giant wolves, Almyra is somehow able to control giant birds (in Edelgard's paralogue and Hilda's IIRC). Maurice doesn't transform back to human form, but the other humans who went beast mode do (Miklan, Edelgard, the students in Ch. 9). How come crest-bearing Edelgard managed to turn at all? 

How come Macuil can remain transformed in the middle of nowhere for a thousand years, but short transformation exhausts Rhea and transformation is impossible for Seteth and Flayn? The BESF never fight directly alongside monsters, even when it would make sense to, and Chapter 11 should see you fight alongside Rhea's Golems against Edelgard, because they're supposed to be a security system for the Holy Tomb. What exactly are Rhea's Golems anyway, and how do they operate? They're presumably some kind of automaton, but unlike how Titanus are explained, it's never said what or who is supplying them energy, or how they were built a thousand years before Cornelia managed something similar. 

Demonic Beasts have masks, which get broken off when you barrier break them, but normal beasts do not. I take the masks as being symbolic of some kind of forced magical control, which  gets destabilised at the moment of barrier break, but recovers after (there's normally a bit of the mask left). It explains why their barriers start at complete as opposed to normal giant wolves and birds, but giant beasts also have full barriers, and barrier breaks work the same way regardless of whether a beast is under TWSITD control so I may just be over-reading into game mechanics.

It's also true that demonic beasts (those under the effect of the Agarthans' artificial Crest Stones) seem to be the only ones that use magic attacks (fire breath, wind strikes etc), which makes sense if they've been refined using magic. Indech, Macuil and Rhea can do it too, but I take that as being Nabatean so more in control of their powers. Maurice, Miklan, Dedue and naturally appearing beasts use physical attacks, and what I guess is naturally produced poison. 

EDIT: I forgot about Aelfric, whose Umbral Beast form is capable of magic and physical attacks. If anything it seems to confirm that the type of item used to transform inevitably affects the type of beast produced. 

If we're counting the DLC, then Yuri's paralogue demonstrates unwilling soldiers/mercenaries turning into Demonic Beasts. Myson then calls this "experiment" successful. We can't declare that no one ever volunteered for this, but it really doesn't seem likely.

It's still true that we aren't made to judge Demonic Beasts in Part II nearly as forcefully as in Ch. 9, maybe because they are already well-established in-universe by Part II even though the player doesn't see their usage in the time skip. It probably ought to be a warning sign for the player though, even if the game makes little comment.

I think that Edelgard is able to transform as her transformation is different in nature from the rest. It is implied that she actually transforms as a response to unlocking the true power of the crest of flames I think that is a sign of the true dark nature of that crest. 

In the case of Macuil, is crest was known as being cursed, so it wouldn't surprise me if different rules apply to him than normal. This is not a normal transformation

If you remember I also stated a second option, I said that they would wither be volunteers or created by the Agarthans independently of the main Imperial army and lended to them to help in the war effort. Little evidence we do have as you say seem to suggest Myson is one of the primary people behind the creation of crest beasts. He also happens to be present during the siege of the Imperial Palace in Azure Moon. Suggesting he might also have had a hand in hers transformation as well, he probably devised the method. Obviously the Agarthans wouldn't bother to just use volunteers. Yet, I don't think it is entirely impossible, but some people would volunteer for this if the Imperial army practised this. Some people are willing to die for the nation and for a cause they believe in, why wouldn't this extend to transforming into a monster as well? 

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That's on ONE route and not the other 3. Stop treating CF as though it's the only option when 3 other, equally viable options exist. I've said it before, I will say it again: In a game like 3H you HAVE TO look at the characters through the lens of all of the routes, not just your preferred one. This isn't a if you want to because anything else is a disservice to the majority of other paths and acts as though they don't exist in favor of your baby route.

 

Maybe then people should stop pretending people like Ferdinand doesn't fight for Edelgard in every single rout with the exception of silver snow. And that is only due to influence from Byleth. Regardless of his views on nobility, Ferdinand is nonetheless loyal to Edelgard most of the time. 

Same with Petra, she is in verdant wind. The only member of the Black Eagles to stand directly outside Edelgard's throne room. This suggests to me that she is trusted above all others, which implies quite a bit of loyalty. I think this is because Edelgard has promised her the independence of the nation in return for her service. A promise I know she keeps if she wins the war. I find it pretty silly that Petra would fight against Edelgard for the independence of the nation when Edelgard has already promised to make her nation independent, she has no reason to be interested in Brigid as a vassal state.

The default state of all Black Eagles members is to join Edelgard without interference from Byleth. So even if Byleth didn't exist, they would pretty much all be part of the imperial army in Azure Moon, Verdant Wind and Crimson Flower. 

If we want a way to measure loyalty, I guess we can see it like this, the ones that can be spared and recruited the even once the war phase has started has comparatively less dedication to their faction.  I think that Ashe in the verdant wind is recruitable after his defeat, same with Lorenz in both that route and azure moon. We also have Lysithea in crimson flower. Do anyone have a complete list of characters that is sparable and recruitable in each route after the war has already started?

I would think that the fact that both Ferdinand and Petra fight to the death and can not be spared, and convinced to join your side shows that they are both very loyal to the Empire. 

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10 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Maybe then people should stop pretending people like Ferdinand doesn't fight for Edelgard in every single rout with the exception of silver snow. And that is only due to influence from Byleth. Regardless of his views on nobility, Ferdinand is nonetheless loyal to Edelgard most of the time. 

Same with Petra, she is in verdant wind. The only member of the Black Eagles to stand directly outside Edelgard's throne room. This suggests to me that she is trusted above all others, which implies quite a bit of loyalty. I think this is because Edelgard has promised her the independence of the nation in return for her service. A promise I know she keeps if she wins the war. I find it pretty silly that Petra would fight against Edelgard for the independence of the nation when Edelgard has already promised to make her nation independent, she has no reason to be interested in Brigid as a vassal state.

The default state of all Black Eagles members is to join Edelgard without interference from Byleth. So even if Byleth didn't exist, they would pretty much all be part of the imperial army in Azure Moon, Verdant Wind and Crimson Flower. 

If we want a way to measure loyalty, I guess we can see it like this, the ones that can be spared and recruited the even once the war phase has started has comparatively less dedication to their faction.  I think that Ashe in the verdant wind is recruitable after his defeat, same with Lorenz in both that route and azure moon. We also have Lysithea in crimson flower. Do anyone have a complete list of characters that is sparable and recruitable in each route after the war has already started?

I would think that both Ferdinand and Petra fight to the death and not be spared, and convinced to join your side shows that they are both very loyal to the Empire. 

They only do this because you and Omegaxis are so fucking staunch on your "Edelgard did nothing wrong and no one in the BE could ever betray them!" stance. Sometimes you just have to accept that she did some scummy shit. The crest beasts are not something you can justify, even Edelgard allying with the Agarthans makes her culpable in the crest beast creation because she did nothing to stop it in the other routes even though in CF it's pretty obvious that she could have, you know since none were used there. The game makes it very clear that the crest beasts are a bad thing, that they're in pain, that they're turned against their will in every case that we see them except two and even then it's portrayed as horrific. Your head canons don't dismiss those facts, turning into a crest beast is meant to be a very very bad thing.

On top of that, other people aren't the problem here. The problem is that you refuse to see any viewpoint that doesn't agree with yours as valid and you will argue until you're blue in the face about it because other people couldn't possibly have other, equally valid opinions. Even if that isn't your intention that is how you're coming across.

Now if you want to use other routes to justify what you think then please, by all means do so. But sitting there and claiming that the other routes and the character's behaviors in them don't matter because they're not CF, or acting like CF has the only legitimate character interactions is not only dishonest, it's infuriating and biased as hell. I don't agree that Felix would betray Dimitri and Faerghus but you don't see me sitting there and arguing with everyone about it because I can see where they're coming from in having different interpretations of what his character would do. You can afford other people the same courtesy with the BE students.

As for your last point, that would be a more nonbiased way of looking at it. Of course that way also means that only 3 characters in the entire game can be recruited over in any form of defecting. Lorenz, Ashe, and Lysithea. They are the only post-time skip recruits that are possible and I think Ashe can only be recruited over if you recruited him before the time skip? But I could be wrong about that. Also Lysithea is less of a betrayal and more of a "Claude told me to join with you if something happened to him".

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18 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I think that Edelgard is able to transform as her transformation is different in nature from the rest. It is implied that she actually transforms as a response to unlocking the true power of the crest of flames I think that is a sign of the true dark nature of that crest. 

In the case of Macuil, is crest was known as being cursed, so it wouldn't surprise me if different rules apply to him than normal. This is not a normal transformation

If you remember I also stated a second option, I said that they would wither be volunteers or created by the Agarthans independently of the main Imperial army and lended to them to help in the war effort. Little evidence we do have as you say seem to suggest Myson is one of the primary people behind the creation of crest beasts. He also happens to be present during the siege of the Imperial Palace in Azure Moon. Suggesting he might also have had a hand in hers transformation as well, he probably devised the method. Obviously the Agarthans wouldn't bother to just use volunteers. Yet, I don't think it is entirely impossible, but some people would volunteer for this if the Imperial army practised this. Some people are willing to die for the nation and for a cause they believe in, why wouldn't this extend to transforming into a monster as well? 

That seems strange - why would the goddess' blood be innately darker than the blood of any other Nabatean? If you're referring to her ability to act twice etc., that's a product of her Twin Crests skill - the fact that she has two crests explains why her monster transformation is that powerful, but it doesn't explain how she was able to transform in the first place. 

If you mean Macuil, then I can't think of a single instance where anyone claims the Crest of Macuil is cursed. If anything, we know less about the Crest of Macuil than most Crests. If you mean Maurice, then you've got the order of events wrong. Maurice's Crest is only considered cursed after Maurice transforms into the Wandering Beast and starts killing people - if we are to believe the legend (which is currently the best explanation we have) then the reason he transformed was overuse of his Crest and his Hero's Relic. His crest is no more cursed than anyone else's, it's a myth that got aggrandised over several centuries.

Completely artificial Demonic Beasts (i.e. without a human base) seem the least likely, because we have no positive evidence that these exist at all. Demonic Beasts are different in nature from the giant animals etc that you fight in auxiliary battles, and Part I provides us plenty of evidence that these Demonic Beasts are formed from humans. It would be far more efficient for the Agarthans to not bother with human experimentation - the fact that they do suggests a human core is a necessary part of the beast creation process. Now we definitely don't know enough about Myson to assume that he is the mad scientist behind Demonic Beasts, but it really doesn't fit with the Agarthan profile to ask for consent and look for willing sacrifices for their experiments. Ask Kronya, or Remire Village. It's theoretically possible that there were volunteers, but it's just unlikely because we see the Agarthans skip the consent-asking process multiple times, it's unlikely that anyone but the most diehard of martyrs would volunteer for this, and even those diehard martyrs would have to know that the Agarthans are behind this and the process requires humans - it's hardly as if they're advertising for recruits. So yeah, I can't claim it's impossible. But I think the reasonable position is to assume that people getting turned into Demonic Beasts are either unaware, unwilling or both.

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1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That's on ONE route and not the other 3. Stop treating CF as though it's the only option when 3 other, equally viable options exist. I've said it before, I will say it again: In a game like 3H you HAVE TO look at the characters through the lens of all of the routes, not just your preferred one. This isn't a if you want to because anything else is a disservice to the majority of other paths and acts as though they don't exist in favor of your baby route.

Its not that other routes don't exist its that the CF and the other routes are different in when they can show things and when they can't. People are taking things before CF is even allowed to show things to mean everything when that is not exactly fair to CF.  Which is why people are bringing up CF because it matters too and it is a reason pre-timeskip stuff is not 100% either way. Imagine if their was a AM route split at the end of part .  That route would be in exact same spot as CF in making things include both pre and post timeskip stuff have to be examined in order to discuss it.  They can't show stuff that leans to hard into either AM route if had a split when they don't know which one you picked yet.

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4 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Its not that other routes don't exist its that the CF and the other routes are different in when they can show things and when they can't. People are taking things before CF is even allowed to show things to mean everything when that is not exactly fair to CF.  Which is why people are bringing up CF because it matters too and it is a reason pre-timeskip stuff is not 100% either way. Imagine if their was a AM route split at the end of part .  That route would be in exact same spot as CF in making things include both pre and post timeskip stuff have to be examined in order to discuss it.  They can't show stuff that leans to hard into either AM route if had a split when they don't know which one you picked yet.

That would be fine, if CF wasn't treated this way in every single thread that so much as mentions Edelgard. In fact this thread is the first one in which I've seen people take White Clouds as any sort of neutral stance to CF and it's because people keep acting like the way characters act in CF eclipses the way they act everywhere else. "Well they act this way in AM and VW" is almost always greeted with "But they act this way in CF and those other two routes are biased against Edelgard!" which is why White Clouds is being brought up. You have to look at every route and pre and post timeskip but staunch Edelgard fans seem to only want to look at Crimson Flower. It does every character in the game a disservice, including Edelgard, and considering that this has happened in so many threads now, it's getting quite irritating.

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Just now, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

That would be fine, if CF wasn't treated this way in every single thread that so much as mentions Edelgard. In fact this thread is the first one in which I've seen people take White Clouds as any sort of neutral stance to CF and it's because people keep acting like the way characters act in CF eclipses the way they act everywhere else. "Well they act this way in AM and VW" is almost always greeted with "But they act this way in CF and those other two routes are biased against Edelgard!" which is why White Clouds is being brought up. You have to look at every route and pre and post timeskip but staunch Edelgard fans seem to only want to look at Crimson Flower. It does every character in the game a disservice, including Edelgard, and considering that this has happened in so many threads now, it's getting quite irritating.

I think you are looking too hard into seeing things a certain way right now tbh.  CF discussion is not always about Edelgard its about how independent of everything else it complicates things because it doesn't truly begin until after the timeskip.  And it has other unique factors that make it weird to not get its fair shake of discussion either. And as for why people go to more lengths to discuss and defend it its because of how the game is structured more than anything else.   Claude is relegated to side character that doesn't do much overall in AM or CF. Dimitri doesn't do much other than show up for one battle during VW or CF. Because of this people focus more on the empire as it takes more of plot focus despite it being a three way war evidenced by the battle of eagle lion part 2  among other things like Claude having his own ambitions.

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46 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

They only do this because you and Omegaxis are so fucking staunch on your "Edelgard did nothing wrong and no one in the BE could ever betray them!" stance. Sometimes you just have to accept that she did some scummy shit. The crest beasts are not something you can justify, even Edelgard allying with the Agarthans makes her culpable in the crest beast creation because she did nothing to stop it in the other routes even though in CF it's pretty obvious that she could have, you know since none were used there. The game makes it very clear that the crest beasts are a bad thing, that they're in pain, that they're turned against their will in every case that we see them except two and even then it's portrayed as horrific. Your head canons don't dismiss those facts, turning into a crest beast is meant to be a very very bad thing.

Okay, maybe actually consider what I'm saying before going off the tangent. Cause you are 100% misinterpreting my words.

The thread talks about how people are willing to betray their factions. Basically betray their nation to join another nation. The question is, WHY would they betray their nations? 

Examples: 

Why would Golden Deer students betray the Alliance and go join Faerghus in AM? It makes no sense at all, ESPECIALLY considering that Dimitri is a madman for more than half the story.

Why would any of the Blue Lions betray Faerghus and join the Alliance in VW? Cause quite a few wouldn't just abandon their homes and families to join another nation, even if they can be considered allies.

In fact, I never even talked about Edelgard being "right" or did "nothing wrong. 

What I am saying is that CF has the students see Rhea turning into a monster in front of their eyes, and actually get the chance to hear what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. It's reality shattering and something that puts things into perspective. It's why the students in GD and BL classes actually understand that opposing the Church might put them in opposition with their nations, so they really have to contemplate defecting from their homes. 

And even within CF, not everyone joins the Empire. 

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7 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

That seems strange - why would the goddess' blood be innately darker than the blood of any other Nabatean? If you're referring to her ability to act twice etc., that's a product of her Twin Crests skill - the fact that she has two crests explains why her monster transformation is that powerful, but it doesn't explain how she was able to transform in the first place. 

If you mean Macuil, then I can't think of a single instance where anyone claims the Crest of Macuil is cursed. If anything, we know less about the Crest of Macuil than most Crests. If you mean Maurice, then you've got the order of events wrong. Maurice's Crest is only considered cursed after Maurice transforms into the Wandering Beast and starts killing people - if we are to believe the legend (which is currently the best explanation we have) then the reason he transformed was overuse of his Crest and his Hero's Relic. His crest is no more cursed than anyone else's, it's a myth that got aggrandised over several centuries.

Completely artificial Demonic Beasts (i.e. without a human base) seem the least likely, because we have no positive evidence that these exist at all. Demonic Beasts are different in nature from the giant animals etc that you fight in auxiliary battles, and Part I provides us plenty of evidence that these Demonic Beasts are formed from humans. It would be far more efficient for the Agarthans to not bother with human experimentation - the fact that they do suggests a human core is a necessary part of the beast creation process. Now we definitely don't know enough about Myson to assume that he is the mad scientist behind Demonic Beasts, but it really doesn't fit with the Agarthan profile to ask for consent and look for willing sacrifices for their experiments. Ask Kronya, or Remire Village. It's theoretically possible that there were volunteers, but it's just unlikely because we see the Agarthans skip the consent-asking process multiple times, it's unlikely that anyone but the most diehard of martyrs would volunteer for this, and even those diehard martyrs would have to know that the Agarthans are behind this and the process requires humans - it's hardly as if they're advertising for recruits. So yeah, I can't claim it's impossible. But I think the reasonable position is to assume that people getting turned into Demonic Beasts are either unaware, unwilling or both.

Sorry, I did mean Maurice, it is  quite similar names so I just mixed it up. 

I would say that the crest of flames is of the dark nature, because Nemesis stole that power. Byleth inherited this power directly from Sothis, but Edelgard was given it through dark experimentation. It is an unnatural crest with its powers arising from the murder of a deity.

28 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

They only do this because you and Omegaxis are so fucking staunch on your "Edelgard did nothing wrong and no one in the BE could ever betray them!" stance. Sometimes you just have to accept that she did some scummy shit. The crest beasts are not something you can justify, even Edelgard allying with the Agarthans makes her culpable in the crest beast creation because she did nothing to stop it in the other routes even though in CF it's pretty obvious that she could have, you know since none were used there. The game makes it very clear that the crest beasts are a bad thing, that they're in pain, that they're turned against their will in every case that we see them except two and even then it's portrayed as horrific. Your head canons don't dismiss those facts, turning into a crest beast is meant to be a very very bad thing.

On top of that, other people aren't the problem here. The problem is that you refuse to see any viewpoint that doesn't agree with yours as valid and you will argue until you're blue in the face about it because other people couldn't possibly have other, equally valid opinions. Even if that isn't your intention that is how you're coming across.

Now if you want to use other routes to justify what you think then please, by all means do so. But sitting there and claiming that the other routes and the character's behaviors in them don't matter because they're not CF, or acting like CF has the only legitimate character interactions is not only dishonest, it's infuriating and biased as hell. I don't agree that Felix would betray Dimitri and Faerghus but you don't see me sitting there and arguing with everyone about it because I can see where they're coming from in having different interpretations of what his character would do. You can afford other people the same courtesy with the BE students.

As for your last point, that would be a more nonbiased way of looking at it. Of course that way also means that only 3 characters in the entire game can be recruited over in any form of defecting. Lorenz, Ashe, and Lysithea. They are the only post-time skip recruits that are possible and I think Ashe can only be recruited over if you recruited him before the time skip? But I could be wrong about that. Also Lysithea is less of a betrayal and more of a "Claude told me to join with you if something happened to him".

I have never by any point said that Edelgard is entirely innocent. That is an interpretation you yourself have made. I am saying that there is usually a reason for her doing scummy shit. She is not one to do bad for the sake of doing bad. Most of the scummy things she has ever done is more or less linked to her decision to ally with the Agarthans. She obviously have some responsibility for this decision, but it is at least second-hand and should not be treated as if their actions are always 100% fully supported by her, they are mostly not, just barely tolerated for the sake of the war effort. It is just irritating that some people can't seem to comprehend that there is a middle ground between absolute innocence and absolute guilt. Even if the crest beasts were volunteers. It is not a completely morally good act as it is still a horrific sacrifice and somewhat equivalent to someone deciding to become a suicide bomber for a cause they believe in.  

But Edelgard isn't moustache twirling villain , despite what some people may think. The truth of the matter is pretty undeniably. But Edelgard is a good and well-intentioned person who is willing to go to extreme lengths to make her vision of the greater good a reality. If she does evil. It is because she believes that her end goal makes it worth it. The Agarthans will be allowed to commit atrocities for a time, but Edelgard ultimate goal is to destroy them as well as the church. She is just willing to do what is necessary to make sure both will be defeated.

It doesn't make her entirely innocent, but it is a mitigating factor and shows what she really thinks of their methods. It is a lot like how Edelgard plans to use wars to end future wars

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think Edelgard would willingly take part in the creation of crest beasts from innocents. But she could potentially turn a blind eye to the Agarthans doing that and use the result of their work. 

It is not that unusual in the war for a country to ally with someone reprehensible if they have a common enemy. Great Britain and the United States, as well as the rest of the allies did cooperate with the Soviet Union in World War II. Does that make them partially responsible for all the atrocities committed by Joseph Stalin? I guess that could be argued if they had the power to stop it. But I think we can all agree that deciding to fight the Soviet Union at this time. In addition to Nazi Germany, Italy and Japan would be a pretty nonsensical decision. So they tolerated the obvious abuse of human rights in order to cooperate in defeating their common enemy.

I think that situation is roughly analogous of Edelgard making an alliance with the Agarthans. It doesn't necessarily mean she has to approve of everything they are doing. It is just the tactically smarter decision

Also, have you even been reading my post? I specifically told you that azure moon and verdant wind also clearly supports the idea that most of the Black Eagles will join Edelgard on default. In fact, most of the time, I do think that people would stay with their respective house, with a few exceptions. This is pretty much what is the default fact in the game, regardless of if a character's interests would be better served joining another side. Which happens quite frequently, as multiple characters are fighting on a side that is ultimately against their own best interest. 

Of course, there are scenarios where it would make sense for various characters to go with various sides. Most have at least one reason to be at either side of the war. But once committed to one side or another, most cannot be so easily convinced to join the other. 

I do interpret a character not being sparable as a willingness to fight to the death for their respective sides. Which showcases quite a bit of dedication. It means that nothing I left could say could convince them to betray their country by the point. There is a reason most need to be convinced before the war begins as after they have already made their decision.

Generally speaking, any character who values keeping a noble title could be argued to be fighting against their own best interests siding with Edelgard. Any character wronged by the crest system for is a commoner is ultimately fighting against their best interest siding against Edelgard.

This would be the primary reason Ferdinand have an incentive to go against Edelgard, but it does seem that for the most part, his loyalty to his nation is strong enough to fight for Edelgard anyway. Just like how despite being wronged by the crest system, or are kept under the boot of  the nobility. Loyalty to their original nations is still the reason these people fight against what would actually benefit them. 

The problem is that there is a chance that almost every character can and up at almost any side depending on the circumstances. But they are still more likely to pick one side or another. For the record, I don't think Felix would betray Faerghus most of the time, but he could be convinced to do so under the right circumstances. Like Ferdinand could be convinced to go against Edelgard, even if most of the time he would not.  

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56 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would say that the crest of flames is of the dark nature, because Nemesis stole that power. Byleth inherited this power directly from Sothis, but Edelgard was given it through dark experimentation. It is an unnatural crest with its powers arising from the murder of a deity.

Hmm I take your point, but by that logic the rest of the descendants of the Ten Elites also have 'dark' crests - it just seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction that doesn't have a basis in the game itself. Take for example the Ten Elites in VW endgame - their relic weapons are dark presumably because they are created with dark magic (hence the Greek letters after their name) but their crests are exactly the same in nature as the crests of your party. I'm actually thinking about making a different thread on dark magic in 3H so watch this space anyway.

 

It should also be said that not many of the students would actually oppose Edelgard on the basis of her views about nobility. The most pro-nobility characters (Ferdinand, Lorenz, Constance) all believe that nobles are nobles only in as far as they are the most competent and well-equipped members of society. In other words, they already believe they are in a system close to meritocracy. Obviously the old system being near a meritocracy isn't actually true, but Ferdinand and Lorenz both truly believe that they have privilege because they are (or will be) exceptional enough people to have earnt it, and they put in effort in order to justify that position. And Constance's support with Edelgard explicitly states that she is happy and willing to rise to the equivalent position in Edelgard's government to what the Nuvelles once had through her own merit in magic research, rather than her bloodline. The rest of the students have little attachment to the nobility system - if anything the character I see as being most opposed to Edelgard's position on nobility (apart from Dimitri) is Hilda, who'd probably hate the idea of losing the life of luxury nobility affords her.

If Ferdinand were to betray Edelgard, it would probably be because of her imprisoning his father, which he could interpret as snubbing the work and advice that House Aegir has provided for generations. In that scenario, he could believe that the only way to get through to Edelgard and make her see why her road is mistaken would be to oppose her on the battlefield - his patriotism would still be motivating him in this scenario, but he would be taking extremely drastic measures to do what he thinks is right for the country and the continent. Normally (without Byleth's interference) his loyalty to the Empire wins out despite these reservations about Edelgard's path in non-CF routes, and that's why you always fight him. 

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12 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Hmm I take your point, but by that logic the rest of the descendants of the Ten Elites also have 'dark' crests - it just seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction that doesn't have a basis in the game itself. Take for example the Ten Elites in VW endgame - their relic weapons are dark presumably because they are created with dark magic (hence the Greek letters after their name) but their crests are exactly the same in nature as the crests of your party. I'm actually thinking about making a different thread on dark magic in 3H so watch this space anyway.

 

It should also be said that not many of the students would actually oppose Edelgard on the basis of her views about nobility. The most pro-nobility characters (Ferdinand, Lorenz, Constance) all believe that nobles are nobles only in as far as they are the most competent and well-equipped members of society. In other words, they already believe they are in a system close to meritocracy. Obviously the old system being near a meritocracy isn't actually true, but Ferdinand and Lorenz both truly believe that they have privilege because they are (or will be) exceptional enough people to have earnt it, and they put in effort in order to justify that position. And Constance's support with Edelgard explicitly states that she is happy and willing to rise to the equivalent position in Edelgard's government to what the Nuvelles once had through her own merit in magic research, rather than her bloodline. The rest of the students have little attachment to the nobility system - if anything the character I see as being most opposed to Edelgard's position on nobility (apart from Dimitri) is Hilda, who'd probably hate the idea of losing the life of luxury nobility affords her.

If Ferdinand were to betray Edelgard, it would probably be because of her imprisoning his father, which he could interpret as snubbing the work and advice that House Aegir has provided for generations. In that scenario, he could believe that the only way to get through to Edelgard and make her see why her road is mistaken would be to oppose her on the battlefield - his patriotism would still be motivating him in this scenario, but he would be taking extremely drastic measures to do what he thinks is right for the country and the continent. Normally (without Byleth's interference) his loyalty to the Empire wins out despite these reservations about Edelgard's path in non-CF routes, and that's why you always fight him. 

Yes, I consider all the crests of the 10 elites in the dark magic as well as all the relics as they were all created by the Agarthans. All crest beasts are is a corrupted form of the Nabateans own transformations after all. The only crests that aren't dark magic are crests of the Saints. That being the crests of the Seiros, Cichol, Cethleann, Indech and Macuil. They were all either willingly passed to humans or the humans with those crests are their direct descendants, not sure which. There are also sacred weapons like the sword and shield of Seiros which are in a completely different category from the relics. Who are unholy in nature.

Also, but does provide a good explanation for why Ferdinand doesn't see Edelgard's new system as an issue, if he is right and it wouldn't make a single bit of difference for people like him as he considers himself qualified to rule. If all the nobles actually were the most competent and most well-equipped members of society and most qualified to rule Edelgard's meritocracy wouldn't do a single bit of difference. 

Because the game have so many routes. A lot of characters are very flexible in what they are willing to support. I just object to the idea that Ferdinand isn't loyal to the Empire. He is actually one of the last people I would ever argue would betray Edelgard. 

There is also another question I have been thinking about, would it be possible for any Agarthan to betray their faction? I would assume that most would be brainwashed into unquestioned loyalty by Thales and more than willing to die for their cause. Yet again Kronya didn't seem to be a willing sacrifice. Even if they are evil people, maybe not everyone would be up for being treated as completely disposable. 

There we have another possibility would response to crest beasts, while I don't think it is the case, given some of the earlier examples in the game. Is it possible that some of them might have previously been Agarthans? They have certainly shown themselves to be willing to sacrifice their own in the past for various dark rituals. 

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1 hour ago, vikingsfan92 said:

I think you are looking too hard into seeing things a certain way right now tbh.  CF discussion is not always about Edelgard its about how independent of everything else it complicates things because it doesn't truly begin until after the timeskip.  And it has other unique factors that make it weird to not get its fair shake of discussion either. And as for why people go to more lengths to discuss and defend it its because of how the game is structured more than anything else.   Claude is relegated to side character that doesn't do much overall in AM or CF. Dimitri doesn't do much other than show up for one battle during VW or CF. Because of this people focus more on the empire as it takes more of plot focus despite it being a three way war evidenced by the battle of eagle lion part 2  among other things like Claude having his own ambitions.

What you're saying would have merit if it weren't for the same people taking every conversation and turning it into CF/Edelgard every time. I point you to basically every discussion not explicitly about gameplay that's on the 3H forum. Go read them and see if the same people talking about the same points don't keep popping up. That's the part that's annoying. CF has just as much merit as any other route... not more.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Okay, maybe actually consider what I'm saying before going off the tangent. Cause you are 100% misinterpreting my words.

The thread talks about how people are willing to betray their factions. Basically betray their nation to join another nation. The question is, WHY would they betray their nations? 

Examples: 

Why would Golden Deer students betray the Alliance and go join Faerghus in AM? It makes no sense at all, ESPECIALLY considering that Dimitri is a madman for more than half the story.

Why would any of the Blue Lions betray Faerghus and join the Alliance in VW? Cause quite a few wouldn't just abandon their homes and families to join another nation, even if they can be considered allies.

In fact, I never even talked about Edelgard being "right" or did "nothing wrong. 

What I am saying is that CF has the students see Rhea turning into a monster in front of their eyes, and actually get the chance to hear what Edelgard is trying to accomplish. It's reality shattering and something that puts things into perspective. It's why the students in GD and BL classes actually understand that opposing the Church might put them in opposition with their nations, so they really have to contemplate defecting from their homes. 

And even within CF, not everyone joins the Empire. 

To be fair, I was mostly referring to Darkmoon, not you. You're just one of the hardest on the "Defend Edelgard" stance so you came to mind, but that's why I didn't tag you. Also you very much do refer to Edelgard being in the right in most threads though I will give credit where it's due, you've calmed down on that a lot. My apologies for the misinterpretation.

1 hour ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Snip as this is way too long to quote

If that's not how you want to come across, then maybe don't go out of your way to write 12 paragraphs in response to every criticism that people give Edelgard.

I don't think Edelgard is evil, I never have. I dislike her choices, I dislike her actions, and frankly I dislike her attitude, but I don't think she's evil. Let alone a bad character. She's actually one of the best written characters in the game and I appreciate her character a good deal. But that doesn't mean I'd support her and I think it does her a massive disservice to see you go around and try to reason away some of her more morally gray acts with "But she has good intentions!" So do a lot of video game antagonists, that doesn't make them any less of a villain just like it doesn't make Edelgard a worse character. Sometimes though you have to accept that people won't agree with her and that it's okay. You obviously don't agree with Dimitri. I highly disagree with a lot of your assertions about him but I don't sit there and call you out with a 10 paragraph response every time you say something bad about him. Comparing Edelgard to WW2 is something I also never did. However there are those that do find the allies culpable in what Soviet Russia did and there were those even in those days that wanted us to take out the Soviets afterward. I don't think allying with evil is ever really a good thing, including in real life.

Also I think it's you that didn't fully read my post. Here's what I said.

2 hours ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

Now if you want to use other routes to justify what you think then please, by all means do so. But sitting there and claiming that the other routes and the character's behaviors in them don't matter because they're not CF, or acting like CF has the only legitimate character interactions is not only dishonest, it's infuriating and biased as hell. I don't agree that Felix would betray Dimitri and Faerghus but you don't see me sitting there and arguing with everyone about it because I can see where they're coming from in having different interpretations of what his character would do. You can afford other people the same courtesy with the BE students.

As for your last point, that would be a more nonbiased way of looking at it. Of course that way also means that only 3 characters in the entire game can be recruited over in any form of defecting. Lorenz, Ashe, and Lysithea. They are the only post-time skip recruits that are possible and I think Ashe can only be recruited over if you recruited him before the time skip? But I could be wrong about that. Also Lysithea is less of a betrayal and more of a "Claude told me to join with you if something happened to him".

So yes I acknowledged that you started talking about the other routes... once I brought it up. Before that you'd mostly been using CF as the character justifications and I still think that's a wrong tactic. Frankly I don't care who anyone would think would switch sides, I just don't think anyone should use any one route as justification for it. Especially the Black Eagles as they technically have two routes that they could go in. As far as my own personal opinion, I don't think Ferdinand would switch sides out of pure loyalty to his country and wanting what's best for Adrestia, but I can see the argument either way. Same for Lorenz who canonically is concerned for his people if they oppose Edelgard because he knows war could be very bad for them and that's on all the routes. So we do agree on that point. Lysithea I'm a touch more iffy on...

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, Byleth is a big factor into this, and even Edelgard and Hubert acknowledge this. But it doesn't change that every student in CF has bigger reasons to be willing to defect from their nation and fight by Edelgard's side. Cause they know that what they are fighting for is bigger than their nation. It's for the kind of cause that determines the fate of mankind itself. 

Just as any student from the Black Eagles has reasons to be willing to leave the Empire, just because she started a war. She didn't try to use diplomacy, she was secretive even from her closest friends. Only Hubert and Byleth are let into the information about her crowning, and let's not forget that Linhardt, Bernie and Caspar's fathers sided with her. It's understandable for her not to trust Ferdinand since he was the son of the one who turned her life miserable, but the other three were supposed to be trusted.

Another thing we're forgetting to mention is the murder attemp at the very beginning of the game. She tried to kill the future leaders of Fodlan. The point is that not only Claude and Dimitri were to die that day, but any other student that came in their way, no matter if his name was Dedue or Ferdinand. Just as some characters would think of shapeshifting into a human despicable, so would others think about underhanded assassination attemps. That action alone makes it clear, "if I ever think you're going to oppose me, I'll kill you in cold blood".

And another thing is that she was inept at carry on the assassination. Surely the dagger was her safety ticket, and that's the reason she pulled it out when she was surrounded by enemies with no ally to witness it, and Byleth screwed everything over by dying to protect her (quite literally actually). Even if they didn't run into Jeralt, she could have caused much trouble if Claude had gotten into a village. The bandits wouldn't have stopped at anything, just like they did with Jeralt and Byleth. That kind of mistakes are taken very seriously by those who study politics in places like an Academy, just like Garreg Mach. I think they were taught something more than strategy, magic and weapon use, since there would be better places to learn those things (like the magic Academy at Firdhiad). If you gather the future leaders of a nation, you'd do something else than having them learn how to fight. Culture, economics, politics and history were sure to be taught there.

Even if you say that many of the students would become angry at Rhea for corrupting history, there would be a whole bunch of them ready to snap as soon as they knew there was a vixen in the flock.

All the Black Eagles stay with Edelgard if unrecruited because there are enough chapters to fit them all (one or two per chapter). The other factions have less chapters to be faced in either route (one chapter to make the BL and GD face each other), so two of their characters were made join the Empire (Ashe and Lorenz), but with more coherent reasons than "I have to impress Edelgard" or "I'm the will of the Emperor", and another two completely vanish from that route (Marianne and Annette). In CF you don't get to fight neither Raphael nor Marianne, just because you rush through two chapters to obliterate the Alliance, while it takes three for the Kingdom, thus facing the recruitable characters in groups of two with a few other possible characters.

Keeping the recruitable characters count low per chapter seemed to be key in the game, and from a certain point in the game, some recruitable character had to appear in part 2 chapters. In CF they had too many characters to have this number low, but in the other routes they needed every character they had to accomplish this (except for the Gronder fields where you have to face 4-5 recruitable characters). In order to keep the BE characters, they were given reasons to stay with Edelgard that, for me, are totally out of character, like with Ferdinand and Petra. It's like they get brainwashed if you didn't recruit them.

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45 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

What you're saying would have merit if it weren't for the same people taking every conversation and turning it into CF/Edelgard every time. I point you to basically every discussion not explicitly about gameplay that's on the 3H forum. Go read them and see if the same people talking about the same points don't keep popping up. That's the part that's annoying. CF has just as much merit as any other route... not more.

Here is a couple questions for you: Why does that matter to the topic at hand? And if every route matters why are you picking points about one route to bother you? Is that not a form of bias itself?  I don't care to to try to change your mind on things just pointing out that I don't think the route you are going about this is going to get you to where you want to go.  And it is a bit too hard on the anti-side for people to be willing to move on to the other sides. There are better ways to steer towards more vw and am centeric discussions than making negative remarks about other routes.

And I also think for this particular topic cf is going to be a discussion point because in order to do the all routes consideration things it is probably the one that needs examining the most simply because the difference between going into AM and VW isn't all that big tbh.  Both sides have only Dimtri and Dedue as unique to BL and only Claude unique to VW and on both sides you have the church big wigs as allies. Smaller differences in factions tend to make it more of a meh discussion point. Its not without merit but I think it a lot more open to interpretation of people than other similar topics.  Personally I think more people would join Claude over Dimtri but I think the topic is way way more open to subjectivity.

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39 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

What you're saying would have merit if it weren't for the same people taking every conversation and turning it into CF/Edelgard every time. I point you to basically every discussion not explicitly about gameplay that's on the 3H forum. Go read them and see if the same people talking about the same points don't keep popping up. That's the part that's annoying. CF has just as much merit as any other route... not more.

To be fair, I was mostly referring to Darkmoon, not you. You're just one of the hardest on the "Defend Edelgard" stance so you came to mind, but that's why I didn't tag you. Also you very much do refer to Edelgard being in the right in most threads though I will give credit where it's due, you've calmed down on that a lot. My apologies for the misinterpretation.

If that's not how you want to come across, then maybe don't go out of your way to write 12 paragraphs in response to every criticism that people give Edelgard.

I don't think Edelgard is evil, I never have. I dislike her choices, I dislike her actions, and frankly I dislike her attitude, but I don't think she's evil. Let alone a bad character. She's actually one of the best written characters in the game and I appreciate her character a good deal. But that doesn't mean I'd support her and I think it does her a massive disservice to see you go around and try to reason away some of her more morally gray acts with "But she has good intentions!" So do a lot of video game antagonists, that doesn't make them any less of a villain just like it doesn't make Edelgard a worse character. Sometimes though you have to accept that people won't agree with her and that it's okay. You obviously don't agree with Dimitri. I highly disagree with a lot of your assertions about him but I don't sit there and call you out with a 10 paragraph response every time you say something bad about him. Comparing Edelgard to WW2 is something I also never did. However there are those that do find the allies culpable in what Soviet Russia did and there were those even in those days that wanted us to take out the Soviets afterward. I don't think allying with evil is ever really a good thing, including in real life.

Also I think it's you that didn't fully read my post. Here's what I said.

So yes I acknowledged that you started talking about the other routes... once I brought it up. Before that you'd mostly been using CF as the character justifications and I still think that's a wrong tactic. Frankly I don't care who anyone would think would switch sides, I just don't think anyone should use any one route as justification for it. Especially the Black Eagles as they technically have two routes that they could go in. As far as my own personal opinion, I don't think Ferdinand would switch sides out of pure loyalty to his country and wanting what's best for Adrestia, but I can see the argument either way. Same for Lorenz who canonically is concerned for his people if they oppose Edelgard because he knows war could be very bad for them and that's on all the routes. So we do agree on that point. Lysithea I'm a touch more iffy on...

I kind of think that back-and-forth arguments is exactly what you are supposed to do in an discussion.  how else are you going to be exposed to different viewpoints. If you are not allowed to express them? If you have 10 paragraphs to say about what I have said about Dimitri, I invite you tell me what you think. It is possible I could gain more knowledge in the exchange and that is ultimately my goal here. To gain a greater understanding. 

Would you believe me if I say that Dimitri is actually my second favourite character in the entire game? And it certainly isn't because I think he is in the right or that I agree with him. He actually reminds me quite a bit of Arthas Menethil from Warcraft , who is also one of my favourite fictional characters of all time. Both started out with ultimately good intentions and let an obsession with vengeance, twist them into becoming monsters. The difference is that Dimitri did manage to catch himself and managed to become a better person. Arthas lost his humanity completely and became one of the most evil villains in the history of his world. Dimitri is very interesting to me because he is the character that somehow managed to make his unwillingness to accept the idea that sometimes innocents needs to be sacrificed for the greater good and his hatred for the strong trampling the weak into reaching a conclusion that led him to become the very thing that he hated. Ultimately, his desire to punish those who he sees as guilty leads him to becoming incredibly sadistic, and he projects that sadism onto the people he punishes , whenever that is true or not, as he assumes every Imperial general takes pleasure in the killing of innocents. Which is in the case of Randolph is not true, him and soldiers like him are just fighting for their country. They are not the monsters Dimitri think they are, this even applies to Edelgard herself as Dimitri during this time, has a very distorted vision of what she is really like. 

Even after his recovery, Dimitri ultimately wants to end the bloodshed by any means necessary, but he is blind to the fact that he helps perpetuate the cycle of violence as much as Edelgard. The very act of fighting against her perpetuates more casualties. Dimitri is a multifaceted character who I find quite interesting because he isn't the typical goody two shoes hero. He is in my opinion the most fascinating  at height of his insanity

Also keep in mind that if I do talk about crimson flower a lot. It is because I love that route. Azure moon is a close second. Neither exist in a vacuum and what you learn on one route informs the other. Why the fact that Dimitri and Edelgard weren't able to get along is such a tragedy is specifically because neither of them are really bad people at heart.  

Sorry if I can be a bit long winded, I just love talking about this game and often I don't mean for my posts to be as long as they are. I just think of one thing I want to say and then think of thousand more when I am in the process of writing a comment. 

I guess what you mean with talking about crimson flower is that I was mainly talking about who would join Edelgard rather than the other way around? I just don't have as much of an idea why any of the Black Eagles would fight for the other side. I also find it a bit suspicious that some of those charts have a most people on the Imperial side fight for it supposedly unwillingly. It just screams of bias to me and it is like some people can't accept that some people would follow Edelgard willingly. Not everyone would be against her because not everyone thinks her methods are unjustifiable.

Ultimately, I am not trying to say that her actions are okay because she is well-meaning, I am saying that they might be necessary and that some of her actions. Being sketchy doesn't preclude her from possibly being in the right. 

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1 hour ago, paladin21 said:

Just as any student from the Black Eagles has reasons to be willing to leave the Empire, just because she started a war. She didn't try to use diplomacy, she was secretive even from her closest friends. Only Hubert and Byleth are let into the information about her crowning, and let's not forget that Linhardt, Bernie and Caspar's fathers sided with her. It's understandable for her not to trust Ferdinand since he was the son of the one who turned her life miserable, but the other three were supposed to be trusted.

I mean, the fact is that Edelgard's war is something that she can't exactly talk about or even explain. How do you explain that the archbishop is a dragon that's been manipulating society for over a thousand years? Who would even believe that? People wouldn't believe that some inhuman creature had been posing as a human in secret and been able to hold control over society for that long. 

It's why Rhea's reveal was so shocking to everyone when Byleth chose to protect Edelgard. Hell, Byleth wasn't even siding with Edelgard as opposed to just not wanting to kill his student. Rather than try to avoid further bloodshed, Rhea went insane and tried to kill Byleth. 

Also, the rest of your argument is... very irrelevant. 

For one thing, apart from how the bandit attack is something that very likely wasn't even meant to kill Dimitri and Claude for various reaasons, no one even knows that the bandit attack was something Edelgard was involved in. You're acting like the characters know about is, but they don't. 

Also, the reason I disagree with various things is that no Black Eagle is fighting because they are forced to. Edelgard never once forces her friends to fight for her. Hell, even Dorothea, who hates the violence, fought out of her own free will. Petra was argued to be doing this cause she's a hostage, but Petra insists that she's in this because she wants to. 

And Ferdinand, despite his issues, does hold great admiration for Edelgard and actually is the one with the biggest issues with fighting against Edelgard, and is the most saddened by the Empire's defeat and Edelgard's death.

Yes, there is reason to oppose Edelgard. But there's also many reasons to support her still.

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Black Eagles - Ferdinand, Constance, and Petra would be the most likely to betray. Bernadetta would probably sit out the war entirely.

 

Blue Lions - Felix and Ashe would have the most motivation to betray. Maybe Sylvain.

 

Golden Deer - Lorenz would be the most likely to betray. Maybe Lysithea.

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Going back to the original topic, I'd like to clarify a few things before I give my answer. First off, I define 'betraying their country' under fighting for another side that conflicts with their country's best interests. Blue Lions joining the Golden Deer do not count as this on their route because they believed Dimitri was dead and that fighting under Claude would be the best option for their house. Golden Deer fighting under the Blue Lions also does not count as while the Alliance was technically neutral, stopping the Empire's expansion would technically be in the Alliance's best interest for their survival. I also do not count joining the Silver Snow route and fighting for the church as fighting for your religion doesn't exactly betray your homeland in this specific scenario. So the only option for me is 'who would leave their country to join Edelgard in the empire?' and 'who from the Black Eagles would leave to join another faction.'

Second, I do not count the church or the Ashen wolves for this as the church members are loyal to their center of religion/Rhea and not really to any country. The Ashen Wolves are relatively similar, especially in the case of Yuri imo. So they will be left off this list.

This list is relatively short, but I think it works. From the Blue Lions, Mercedes, Sylvain and Ashe as Sylvain's disdain for the crest system would line up with Edelgard's and he's one of the few who does not regret joining her on the Crimson Flower path. Ashe is similar as he does not gain closure from Catherine about Lonato and states that he cannot forgive the church for Christophe's death. Mercedes mainly for Emile and the guilt she feels as that is a large factor for her throughout the game. For the Golden Deer, I can see Lorenz and Lysithea, and potentially Leonie though Leonie would be more for Byleth's sake than Edelgard's. Lorenz's family tends to side with the empire when they invade so it makes sense for Lorenz to ally himself with Edelgard, and Lysithea has her bond with Edelgard through their supports. Leonie I could see joining the empire if it would mean protecting Byleth and honoring Jeralt, but I could also see her as neutral.

As for the Black Eagles, I actually do think it would be less about betraying Edelgard and more about betraying their country. Ferdinand might disagree with Edelgard a lot, but he is a patriot at heart so I can't see him leaving the Black Eagles to fight against the empire of his own violation. Caspar might leave, but only if convinced that Edelgard's cause isn't just, and Linhardt would either stay out of it completely or be dragged along by Caspar. Petra is complicated because her loyalty lies with Brigid rather than anything else, though she can develop a friendship with Edelgard. Given her role as a political prisoner though, I could see her staying on the empire's side unless fully convinced that Brigid's best interests lay with the opposing side.

I do think that one thing to keep in mind with this is that for recruitment, the character is supposedly deciding that their relationship with one person/specific people is more important than their love of their country. And that is something that does happen a lot. So while I understand some people can be upset about someone leaving their country to fight for another, I see it as more of these students leaving to fight for/alongside people they deeply care about. And people do that all the time.

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3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Yes, I consider all the crests of the 10 elites in the dark magic as well as all the relics as they were all created by the Agarthans. All crest beasts are is a corrupted form of the Nabateans own transformations after all. The only crests that aren't dark magic are crests of the Saints. That being the crests of the Seiros, Cichol, Cethleann, Indech and Macuil. They were all either willingly passed to humans or the humans with those crests are their direct descendants, not sure which. There are also sacred weapons like the sword and shield of Seiros which are in a completely different category from the relics. Who are unholy in nature.

Yeah so I agree that there's a distinction between sacred weapons and relics, but I don't think that can be extended to a difference between stolen crests and inherited ones - at least, not one that the game actually makes. I imagine the process of acquiring a crest (excluding Edelgard/Lysithea) is standardly blood transfusion whether you're killing a Nabatean or a Nabatean is giving it to you - and after the first generation, there's no difference anyway. In the case of Edelgard/Lysithea, I imagine something else was involved (probably magic) to give them their second crest, but I don't think it has anything to do with the specific nature of either the Crest of Flames or the Crest of Gloucester. I don't think that Crests can inherently be dark or evil (it's like calling certain blood types dark or evil) or that the Crest of Flames specifically allowed Edelgard's transformation. I do believe that the Crest of Flames is stronger than other crests, by virtue of being Sothis' crest, but I don't see any evidence that it should differ from other crests specifically in being able to turn its bearer into a Crest Beast.

4 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

There is also another question I have been thinking about, would it be possible for any Agarthan to betray their faction? I would assume that most would be brainwashed into unquestioned loyalty by Thales and more than willing to die for their cause. Yet again Kronya didn't seem to be a willing sacrifice. Even if they are evil people, maybe not everyone would be up for being treated as completely disposable. 

There we have another possibility would response to crest beasts, while I don't think it is the case, given some of the earlier examples in the game. Is it possible that some of them might have previously been Agarthans? They have certainly shown themselves to be willing to sacrifice their own in the past for various dark rituals.

We don't know much about Agarthan society, so it's pretty difficult to judge. If they all live in Shambala all the time, they probably know little of the upper world until they reach a high enough rank and believe in their cause enough not to be swayed by what they see. If they recruit, then it's a different story. I'm just assuming they function like a cult (hereditary membership, ranks, lifetime commitment etc.) but they may not do. If Hubert's paralogue is something to go by, then they don't at least want to sacrifice their scientists/mages. But what even is it to be a rank-and-file Agarthan? Do they constantly maintain a standing army that just sat around before 3H kicked off? How many people can Shambala support without it beggaring belief that they weren't noticed? We actually know fairly little about what it would mean for an Agarthan to betray their people, or what it means to be Agarthan in the first place. Interesting question, but I don't think you could get a definitive answer for it.

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We basically know nothing about Agarthan at all.

Like if Shambhala is there only stronghold? (the music title "Area17 suggests there could be others), how many Agarthans are there?

Do they have similar lifespan as surface human? (Thales says "we remember you kind" could be interpret both ways)

Why is there Russian language written in their facility?

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3 hours ago, SimplyUnknown said:

This list is relatively short, but I think it works. From the Blue Lions, Mercedes, Sylvain and Ashe as Sylvain's disdain for the crest system would line up with Edelgard's and he's one of the few who does not regret joining her on the Crimson Flower path. Ashe is similar as he does not gain closure from Catherine about Lonato and states that he cannot forgive the church for Christophe's death. Mercedes mainly for Emile and the guilt she feels as that is a large factor for her throughout the game. For the Golden Deer, I can see Lorenz and Lysithea, and potentially Leonie though Leonie would be more for Byleth's sake than Edelgard's. Lorenz's family tends to side with the empire when they invade so it makes sense for Lorenz to ally himself with Edelgard, and Lysithea has her bond with Edelgard through their supports. Leonie I could see joining the empire if it would mean protecting Byleth and honoring Jeralt, but I could also see her as neutral.

Honestly, I would say that Leonie and Alois should be the ones that work any route if it's Byleth. Both stated that they had to protect Byleth, and if they were honoring Jeralt, they would follow him on any side. So even in CF, Leonie would follow Byleth because of her promise.

Also, no matter the route, Marianne actually has nothing but admiration for Edelgard, and is even stronger in CF. 

3 hours ago, SimplyUnknown said:

As for the Black Eagles, I actually do think it would be less about betraying Edelgard and more about betraying their country. Ferdinand might disagree with Edelgard a lot, but he is a patriot at heart so I can't see him leaving the Black Eagles to fight against the empire of his own violation. Caspar might leave, but only if convinced that Edelgard's cause isn't just, and Linhardt would either stay out of it completely or be dragged along by Caspar. Petra is complicated because her loyalty lies with Brigid rather than anything else, though she can develop a friendship with Edelgard. Given her role as a political prisoner though, I could see her staying on the empire's side unless fully convinced that Brigid's best interests lay with the opposing side.

The funny thing is that Caspar admitted that he is terrified of opposing his father, and never stops being afraid of that. He makes it clear that if his father was leading an attack, they will lose no matter what, despite Byleth being there. Caspar even says he'd rather fight a monster than his father. So I would say that Caspar would have powerful reasons not to oppose the Empire. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, no matter the route, Marianne actually has nothing but admiration for Edelgard, and is even stronger in CF.

Marianne is difficult for me to see engaging in the war unless Byleth directly supports her. For one, she doesn't show up to fight as an ally of Claude when Byleth chooses a house other than Golden Deer and doesn't recruit her. To me, this means her depression has become so strong that she is unable to fight, or it has destroyed her entirely. So I can't see her siding with Edelgard, regardless of her admiration, not because of Edelgard herself, but rather due to Marianne's self-perception. If that makes sense, at least.

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1 minute ago, SimplyUnknown said:

Marianne is difficult for me to see engaging in the war unless Byleth directly supports her. For one, she doesn't show up to fight as an ally of Claude when Byleth chooses a house other than Golden Deer and doesn't recruit her. To me, this means her depression has become so strong that she is unable to fight, or it has destroyed her entirely. So I can't see her siding with Edelgard, regardless of her admiration, not because of Edelgard herself, but rather due to Marianne's self-perception. If that makes sense, at least.

I can understand to an extent, and she does need to be pushed to it. However, Chapter 13 of CF has her actually make a resolved statement about wanting to see Edelgard's path through:

Quote

Marianne: My adoptive father sent me here so our family name would be known. He doesn't care which side wins, the Empire or the Alliance. However, even if he tells me to come home, I intend to stay. I want to see this new world Edelgard dreams of.

 

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7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I can understand to an extent, and she does need to be pushed to it. However, Chapter 13 of CF has her actually make a resolved statement about wanting to see Edelgard's path through:

Yeah Marianne is definitely partial to Edelgard, but doesn't feel like enough of a motivation (minus Byleth's recruitment) to make her join the war in the first place.

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