Who should have betrayed their faction?

[Darkmoon6789]

11 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

All these are decent points.

However, take Silver Snow, which shows the Black Eagles as all horrified by Edelgard's actions, or at least worried. None of them wanted war. It's a huge disconnect from them being on the Crimson Flower side of things.

Petra is looking out for her own people, she's kind of in the same position Lorenz is in. So it's not necessarily sharing a vision and more about self preservation.

Again, Lonato was explicitly incited by the Western Church to go through with his rebellion (you could even argue manipulated). His people rallied behind him because they loved him, but no matter how noble the cause, his rebellion was futile. If he had known of Edelgard's plans, it would have been smarter to join her then. Instead he gets a bunch of his own people killed. Ashe is wise for his age and thinks before he acts, he never considered revenge in any of the routes (unless you recruit him to CF). He has good reason for joining the Empire, but I don't think that's what his character would have done without player input, based on how he handles the Lonato/Church stuff in White Clouds.

Felix is miserable in Crimson Flower. No matter how much the end result lines up with his ideals, it's certainly not the way he would have chosen.

While I don't think Lysithea is the one to want war, her reasons for joining Edelgard have a bit more weight to them than most other characters, I'll give her that.

Ferdinand is more about being noble of spirit, and less of being noble of station. I can't see him condoning warfare either.

Lorenz would join, though not by choice. Whether or not because it's simply what his father wanted, Gloucester territory is ill placed should they suffer the Empire's wrath.

Some characters would have to be rewritten to justify their inclusion, or better yet, we could have focused on some other characters instead of just the students and faculty/church. People like Ladislava or Randolph would have been prime candidates. It kinda of boils down to the fact that most people that can join CF are different versions of Claude. They want change and have similar ideals, but aren't willing to go about it to the extent that Edelgard does.

Long story short, while Edelgard is one of my favorite characters in the game, I just can't see most other playable characters joining her as natural.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just think the developers did not do enough work fleshing out their characters enough to join Crimson Flower. Regardless, it's all a moot point because we can do whatever we want and believe whatever we want. They allow for that in the game. I just think it could have been done better.

Is mainly due to the fact that you can recruit almost every character, regardless of route, regardless of how little sense that makes. For that reason they needed to make each character quite flexible in their goals to justify siding with basically anyone. 

I would also agree that telling Lonato to wait with announcing his rebellion until Edelgard declares war would have been the smarter decision. That way, his life wouldn't have been wasted. I don't know what the heck they were thinking with having him rebelling so early. He either was impatient, and did that of his own accord, or it had some kind of connection to the Western Church, which all signs point to having some kind of connection with Cornelia because the base of the Western Church is Arianrhod. 

There is something I think is rather odd with the idea of the choosing to fight against Edelgard because you don't believe the war is the right thing to do. By that point there will be war whenever they want it or not, if there is going to be fighting anyway, doesn't it make more sense to actually fight for the side that more closely aligns with your ideals whenever you agree with the war itself or not? The act of resisting itself perpetuates more bloodshed, which kind of makes the idea of fighting against someone in a war because you are not in the favour of war pretty ridiculous. If any of them were truly against the very idea of having a war. The logical decision would be to not fight for either side. Like with Dimitri towards the end of the azure moon, if he is really that keen on stopping Edelgard's war, with quickest way to accomplish that would be to surrender as bloodshed would only continue as long as he continues to resist. The war could end with the death of Edelgard, but it could also end with her achieving victory. There is more than one way to put an end to her war. Maybe someone came to the conclusion that the best way to minimise casualties is to assure Imperial victory.

But hey, I don't know why I am expecting humans to be logical, they almost never are. Humans are sometimes capable of making bizarre decisions for bizarre reasons, it is actually somewhat realistic.

[Slyfox]

1 minute ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Is mainly due to the fact that you can recruit almost every character, regardless of route, regardless of how little sense that makes. For that reason they needed to make each character quite flexible in their goals to justify siding with basically anyone. 

I would also agree that telling Lonato to wait with announcing his rebellion until Edelgard declares war would have been the smarter decision. That way, his life wouldn't have been wasted. I don't know what the heck they were thinking with having him rebelling so early. He either was impatient, and did that of his own accord, or it had some kind of connection to the Western Church, which all signs point to having some kind of connection with Cornelia because the base of the Western Church is Arianrhod. 

There is something I think is rather odd with the idea of the choosing to fight against Edelgard because you don't believe the war is the right thing to do. By that point there will be war whenever they want it or not, if there is going to be fighting anyway, doesn't it make more sense to actually fight for the side that more closely aligns with your ideals whenever you agree with the war itself or not? The act of resisting itself perpetuates more bloodshed, which kind of makes the idea of fighting against someone in a war because you are not in the favour of war pretty ridiculous. If any of them were truly against the very idea of having a war. The logical decision would be to not fight for either side. Like with Dimitri towards the end of the azure moon, if he is really that keen on stopping Edelgard's war, with quickest way to accomplish that would be to surrender as bloodshed would only continue as long as he continues to resist. The war could end with the death of Edelgard, but it could also end with her achieving victory. There is more than one way to put an end to her war. Maybe someone came to the conclusion that the best way to minimise casualties is to assure Imperial victory.

But hey, I don't know why I am expecting humans to be logical, they almost never are. Humans are sometimes capable of making bizarre decisions for bizarre reasons, it is actually somewhat realistic.

We could keep debating this in circles, but that last part that I put in bold pretty much sums it up. And I think it applies for all sides of the debate. What seems logical to me seems illogical to you, and vice versa. Logic doesn't appear to be an objective truth, we all have our versions of it. Humans are humans after all, both endlessly complex and simple at the same time.

[vikingsfan92]

I will start with the Ashen wolves: Hapi is inarguably Black Eagles as she hates the church with a passion. Balthus in the camp kind on Crimison flower talks about how his mother is a reason to fight for the Empire but also knows Hilda/Holst so its down to those two factions for him. Yuri is the type who can join and leave any faction at any moment so yeah not going to give him a house. Constance has the most connection with the empire of all the Ashen Wolves and probably has the closest connection to Edelgard of all of the wolves.

For the golden deer: Lysthiea and Lorenz are very pro Edelgard and the empire.  But a sleeper pick the empire for me is Marianne because Edelgard kind of represents the type of person she wishes she could be strong and able to not worry about how others think of her.

 

As for the blue lions- I think it might actually be the least loyal house. Annette and Felix both have cut betrayal content in the form of unused voicelines in the files. Felix is also the one to not really want to go with the kingdom because of his father and Dimitri. He doesn't strike me as he is happy with any option but the kingdom I think he doesn't like the most because of his father and Dimtri.  Ashe and Sylvain both have reasons to hate the system alot. Mercedes has Jeritza. Really only Dedue is ironclad loyal to Dimtri as students go. Ingrid I don't think really is too attached to any route so long as she can fulfill her knight dream.

 

As for black Eagels: only really Ferdinad and Bernedetta stand out to me as potential leavers. With the right person approaching him after his fathers dismissal I can see him being sorely tempted. Bernedetta would probably be the most likely to peace out of the war entirely and go somewhere where she can just stay inside. Lindhardt is probably third most likely but honestly is probably just too lazy to do so.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Blackstarskywalker]

I think some recruited characters I see out of place in the second part of the game, but that happens on all routes.

I can see deserting (without the Byleth factor)

Black Eagles: Dorothea, Bernadette, Linhart.
Blue Lions: Felix, Sylvain, Ashe.
Golden Deer: Lysithea, Leonie, Hilda.

I would like to know if Hilda has personal problems with Edelgard. It can be recruited with the Blue Lions, but not with the black eagles (you have to wait until chapter 12).

[Dark Holy Elf]

12 hours ago, Slyfox said:

Which brings me to another point. One of the worst parts for me in Three Houses is that any of the playable characters joining Edelgard and Hubert for the Empire offensive simply isn't believable. While decent points can be made as to why, it's just not what I got out of their dialogue, supports and story presence. No one struck me as willing to plunge the entire continent into war, besides the aforementioned two.

I completely disagree with this.

In fact, I had the total opposite problem: the behaviour of the Eagles in Silver Snow isn't believable and is at odds with the character work they get in their supports, and more than any other route 100% requires devotion to Byleth to explain, with Ferdinand as really the only possible exception.

I want to note that jumping ship to an enemy country is a rare thing in reality. People didn't mass defect from France just because Napoleon "started a war". If a ruler starts a war, typically he or she does so when their citizens see it as a justified... heck, often it is sold as the other side forcing them into it. Such is certainly the case in this game; we get a clear picture that people throughout the Empire (various lords, various soldiers, and the Eagles themselves) view their side of the conflict as the just one.

Further, Crimson Flower itself goes to pains to justify each character, giving them all unique dialogue in Chapter 12 preparations as to why they're there and in the Eagles' case, a main plot cutscene as well. I didn't get this on other routes, and on Silver Snow you get an actively nonsensical scene with the Eagles making a large journey to honour a promise they made Edelgard so they can... join the Knights of Seiros and fight against her?

I could go into individual characters if you wish.

[haarhaarhaar]

Another case that smacked of poor writing to me was Alois. If Byleth doesn't recruit him, then when you fight him in CF he accuses Byleth of betraying Jeralt's legacy.

But if Byleth recruits him, he says in Chapter 12's staging area that Byleth is Jeralt's legacy. And post-timeskip Alois claims to have spent five years searching for Byleth, even leaving the Knights to do it. It's a weird amount of loyalty and a hell of a perspective shift given that he only joins you officially in the month of the route-split, and it makes me think he either should be Church-locked in CF (like how Flayn leaves), or automatically join Byleth without any recruitment requirement (like Jeritza does in CF).

Edited May 26, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[eclipse]

14 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Another case that smacked of poor writing to me was Alois. If Byleth doesn't recruit him, then when you fight him in CF he accuses Byleth of betraying Jeralt's legacy.

But if Byleth recruits him, he says in Chapter 12's staging area that Byleth is Jeralt's legacy. And post-timeskip Alois claims to have spent five years searching for Byleth, even leaving the Knights to do it. It's a weird amount of loyalty and a hell of a perspective shift given that he only joins you officially in the month of the route-split, and it makes me think he either should be Church-locked in CF (like how Flayn leaves), or automatically join Byleth without any recruitment requirement (like Jeritza does in CF).

I'd keep him Church-locked on CF, and explain it as his family being held hostage by the church to keep him loyal.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

26 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'd keep him Church-locked on CF, and explain it as his family being held hostage by the church to keep him loyal.

Is that a thing that the church does?

[eclipse]

41 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Is that a thing that the church does?

I don't see why it couldn't be written in.  Hell, it doesn't necessarily have to come from Rhea herself - perhaps some of the more fanatic followers, who don't want a repeat of Byleth.

[haarhaarhaar]

It does make a bit more sense than Alois willingly killing his mentor's son because of a poorly motivated vendetta, even if he is under the misconception that Byleth is fighting for exactly the same cause as Jeralt's killers. 

On a separate note, it feels like IS missed a trick by not showing us Alois' family - at least then his S-rank with M!Byleth wouldn't feel like a cop-out from IS.

[Timlugia]

18 hours ago, Mylady said:

Sylvain, for female Byleth. Mostly played like a joke but it's canon

Mercedes for her brother in Black Eagles

 

Well, Mercedes is also a die hard church loyalist on the other hand.

In some support like with Alois, Mercedes decided to join the Knight of Seiros to fight for church, even cites that she has killed many already, when Alois warn her about the nature of knighthood.

Quote

Alois: Hm. I think the Knights of Seiros wouldn't be quite what you expect. As a knight myself, I slew countless foes. I shudder at the memory of my own deeds. The corpses I made, heaped in a pile, would be like a mountain. I suppose that's why I'm so frightened of ghosts. What if they appear before me, seeking revenge? Perhaps it's a silly thing to worry about, but... still.

Mercedes: I'm well aware of the nature of a knight's duty. But I no longer have anything to fear. I've been on the battlefield. I've killed my enemies many times.

 

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I want to note that jumping ship to an enemy country is a rare thing in reality. People didn't mass defect from France just because Napoleon "started a war". If a ruler starts a war, typically he or she does so when their citizens see it as a justified... heck, often it is sold as the other side forcing them into it. Such is certainly the case in this game; we get a clear picture that people throughout the Empire (various lords, various soldiers, and the Eagles themselves) view their side of the conflict as the just one.

 

There is a major difference between Napoleon War and Three House was that Napoleon war well anticipated by the French public before the official hostilities by more than six months ahead.  Edelgard's war was a completely secret even among many of her ministers, let alone average Imperial citizens. Unless anti church was the popular stance across the empire (which clearly wasn't consider most students were), there was certainly going to be dissents

Honestly, I think it's a pretty poor example since the circumstances were very different.

 

Speaking for defecting and fighting for opposing countries, it's actually quite common. In WW2 alone, there were "defector" units on every sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Soviet_Union Soviet citizens fight for Nazi Germany, many out of spite of Stalin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo_Imperial_Army Chinese fighting for Japanese

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Army British Indian fighting for Japanese, btw, they are consider a Indian patriots today by many in India.

And in US during both World Wars, a sizeable number in the military were immigrants, some just arrived US recently, many from the hostile nations (such as Germany) but choose to fight for US rather than for their birth nation.

 

Another thing to consider here, Silver Snow is labeled as "Path of the Empire" in the in game data and official Famitsu guidebook in Japan.

It's possible that Dev considered Byleth holds some legitimate legacy to the empire, and Silver Snow is defined as some kind civil war, then Black Eagle students supporting Byleth as "true" imperial authority would make sense.

https://tcrf.net/Fire_Emblem:_Three_Houses/Unused_Quests#Free_The_Merchants

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Timlugia

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

Another thing to consider here, Silver Snow is labeled as "Path of the Empire" in the in game data and official Famitsu guidebook in Japan.

It's possible that Dev considered Byleth holds some legitimate legacy to the empire, and Silver Snow is defined as some kind civil war, then Black Eagle students supporting Byleth as "true" imperial authority would make sense.

Maybe they had that idea at some point in development, but at no point anywhere in the game is there any suggestion that Byleth of all people would hold any sway over the empire. That's pretty ridiculous honestly. S/he has no ties to the empire beyond teaching a few of their nobles for a year, and on Silver Snow the imagery invoked by Byleth's side in the war is religious, not imperial.

[Azz]

Black Eagles:

I feel like they all make sense joining the empire personally, being loyal to Edelgard and all. Obviously Ferdie is slightly suspect but I think it depends on how you see him developing and whether he's put his nationalism before how he feels about his noble title etc. As for other houses:

Ferdie can fit in any side of the war tbh because again, if he desires his noble title over his nationalism, he's obviously gonna fight against Edel.

Caspar and Petra I feel like would be the most likely to leave the empire with Caspar thinking Edel's war is unjust (though his sense of justice depends on route) and Petra deciding she wants to liberate Brigid.

I feel like Linhardt and Dorothea would actually just not fight if gameplay didn't demand otherwise. Linhardt I can see joining Claude however due to overlapping interest in crests/relics and Dorothea I can on any side as long as she was fighting to just end the war.

Bernie oddly enough I feel suits fighting with the empire best over other routes. It's the only route where she is completely free form her father and actually is outside her room.

Blue Lions:

I feel like the only ones who would actually join the empire with little regret would be Mercedes and Ashe, for Emile and for getting revenge for Lonato/Cristophe respectively. Felix and Annette could also realistically do so (and do in cut content), for his resentment with Dimitri/his father and to protect her family respectively. However, I think they would still be more likely to stay with Faerghus/the church. I really can't see Sylvain and Ingrid joining though. They do have reasons, but I think they are so loyal to Faerghus, they would have a hard time deserting Faerghus.

In regards to joining Claude/the church, I think all of them reasonably could, though, I think the BL in general are the most likely to stay in their house because for the most part, they are all so close knit, even with the problems they have with their country/the church.

Golden Deer:

Sans Hilda, the GD are so disconnected, they could all go either way. Lorenz and Lysithea would easily join the empire because that's who their families joined (even if joining wasn't their own choice). Marianne is similar sine her father is a huge opportunist and would join the empire if they were winning. Then the commoner trio really have no political ties to Leicester besides the fact they live there (also Ignatz's family has ties to Gloucester). The only one who would be most apprehensive would probably be Leonie because of TWSITD but even then, she would probs join to protect Byleth for Jeralt.

Besides the empire, again I can see everyone from GD joining Faerghus/the church too again, because they are so disconnected. Though, again Hilda I feel like she would stay with Claude, even though she is recruitable on those routes.

Ashen Wolves:

Yuri would join the winning side to protect his people and family, it's as simple as that.

Balthus would probably be similar because his mother and Kupala, but I feel like he would also fight and protect Leicester from the empire for the same reason.

For Constance, I feel like she is really the only character who would actively not join the empire because her rebuilding her house is so integral to her and that is something she wouldn't be able to do in the way she would wish with Edelgard.

Hapi on the other hand would probably join the empire the most willingly because of the church and what they did to her.

Faculty/Knights:

We know Hanneman and Manuela join the empire if you don't recruit them so this is an easy answer. I feel like Hanneman especially would join Edelgard.

For Alois and Shamir, they have contradicting reasons for joining and not joining the empire. Alois would join the empire to protect Byleth for Jeralt but fight against the empire and Byleth because Byleth betrayed Jeralt. Similarly, Shamir would fight with the empire because she has no loyalty to Rhea but would fight against them because of her loyalty to her. It really goes either way imo.

[Slyfox]

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I completely disagree with this.

In fact, I had the total opposite problem: the behaviour of the Eagles in Silver Snow isn't believable and is at odds with the character work they get in their supports, and more than any other route 100% requires devotion to Byleth to explain, with Ferdinand as really the only possible exception.

I want to note that jumping ship to an enemy country is a rare thing in reality. People didn't mass defect from France just because Napoleon "started a war". If a ruler starts a war, typically he or she does so when their citizens see it as a justified... heck, often it is sold as the other side forcing them into it. Such is certainly the case in this game; we get a clear picture that people throughout the Empire (various lords, various soldiers, and the Eagles themselves) view their side of the conflict as the just one.

Further, Crimson Flower itself goes to pains to justify each character, giving them all unique dialogue in Chapter 12 preparations as to why they're there and in the Eagles' case, a main plot cutscene as well. I didn't get this on other routes, and on Silver Snow you get an actively nonsensical scene with the Eagles making a large journey to honour a promise they made Edelgard so they can... join the Knights of Seiros and fight against her?

I could go into individual characters if you wish.

Not much else I can say regarding your first point, we simply have different views on those supports, and that's fair. I just think that there's a large disconnect from White Clouds Black Eagles vs. Pro Edelgard Black Eagles.

We are talking about only six people (plus Ferdinand's retainers) that have jumped ship. While they are not of any importance within Three Houses, how many other students remained loyal to Edelgard? How many didn't? The classes are much bigger than we get to see. It's easy to forget that the cast in Three Houses may have other close relationships than just our playable units and important NPCs. Maybe some Empire-related non-students rebelled against Edelgard too? There's no way of knowing, but the only fact that we have is that at least six people defected. It's an insignificant number.

As far as the promise goes, it wasn't handled with much grace in Silver Snow. That route should have focused more on the Church crew, and possibly picking up the Black Eagles as you go along. Regardless, Edelgard betraying her classmates in the holy tomb and trying to kill them if they stand in her way is a very strong motivation to defect.

If you'd like to go into individual characters, please do so by all means! These forums are for sharing opinions (respectfully - as some people like to forget), not withholding them!

 

And I'll be perfectly honest with anyone I've debated with, I am STILL working my way through Blue Lions and have yet to play Crimson Flower! So my information is not complete and possibly biased. That said, I try to argue as objectively as I can and I've been doing constant reading on Three Houses ever since it released, even though I was burned out from the game partway into Verdant Wind (that lasted some months). I'd also like to add that I've previously addressed characters joining Edelgard as Crimson Flower followers and whatnot, but since I haven't had a first hand experience with that route yet, I'll instead call them Pro Edelgard's something or other (tbd). There, full disclosure done!

Edited May 27, 2020 by Slyfox

[Darkmoon6789]

36 minutes ago, Slyfox said:

Not much else I can say regarding your first point, we simply have different views on those supports, and that's fair. I just think that there's a large disconnect from White Clouds Black Eagles vs. Pro Edelgard Black Eagles.

We are talking about only six people (plus Ferdinand's retainers) that have jumped ship. While they are not of any importance within Three Houses, how many other students remained loyal to Edelgard? How many didn't? The classes are much bigger than we get to see. It's easy to forget that the cast in Three Houses may have other close relationships than just our playable units and important NPCs. Maybe some Empire-related non-students rebelled against Edelgard too? There's no way of knowing, but the only fact that we have is that at least six people defected. It's an insignificant number.

As far as the promise goes, it wasn't handled with much grace in Silver Snow. That route should have focused more on the Church crew, and possibly picking up the Black Eagles as you go along. Regardless, Edelgard betraying her classmates in the holy tomb and trying to kill them if they stand in her way is a very strong motivation to defect.

If you'd like to go into individual characters, please do so by all means! These forums are for sharing opinions (respectfully - as some people like to forget), not withholding them!

 

And I'll be perfectly honest with anyone I've debated with, I am STILL working my way through Blue Lions and have yet to play Crimson Flower! So my information is not complete and possibly biased. That said, I try to argue as objectively as I can and I've been doing constant reading on Three Houses ever since it released, even though I was burned out from the game partway into Verdant Wind (that lasted some months). I'd also like to add that I've previously addressed characters joining Edelgard as Crimson Flower followers and whatnot, but since I haven't had a first hand experience with that route yet, I'll instead call them Pro Edelgard's something or other (tbd). There, full disclosure done!

If anything, I think it is silver snow that is the odd one out. As in both azure moon and verdant wind. All of the black eagle members join Edelgard, including a few other people like Lorenz and apparently Hanneman. So I assume this is the default position without any intervention from Byleth. They fight with my left against Edelgard for the same reason many non-black eagle members join them in crimson flower, because they trust Byleth. Granted, no black eagle member was present at the holy tomb in those routes. 

I personally think that you should have been given the opportunity to join Edelgard before the holy tomb mission, not after. I had already made up my mind by that point, and I found it frustrating that I basically had to fight her against my will. I also have no idea why Edelgard reveals herself before the fight even starts in this route. If you have to fight anyway. Maybe they should have saved the reveal for after that fight like every other route. If she is going to reveal herself, at least grant the player the option to sign of her before the mission. I think that would make a lot more sense in terms of believability.

By the way, I do strongly recommend playing crimson flower, it has its flaws, but it is a really good route regardless and the most different in the entire game. The supports with Edelgard really humanises her as a character and explains why many of these people would join with her.

The only route in the game I haven't played is silver snow, I will do it one day. But I did do it last as for me as someone was started with crimson flower, the members of the black eagle house going against Edelgard just feels wrong to me. Many of these people I originally knew as close friends of hers, so it is heartbreaking to see them like that.

[Timlugia]

21 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

 Constance has the most connection with the empire of all the Ashen Wolves and probably has the closest connection to Edelgard of all of the wolves.

Constance actually says she would stop Edelgard without hesitation had she knew about the plan in Chapter 11.

Quote

• Constance: What has possessed you to go through with this?!
• Edelgard: I have considered every angle. I have wavered and suffered, and now my resolve is firm. Now confess... Had I told you, would you have kept my secret?
• Constance: Absolutely not! I would have moved against you without a moment's hesitation!
• Edelgard: As I thought. That is precisely why I did not tell you. Now get out of my way.

It's actually really strange she wouldn't join one of the anti empire faction if you choose Crimson Flower.

[DParadoX]

21 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I would also agree that telling Lonato to wait with announcing his rebellion until Edelgard declares war would have been the smarter decision. That way, his life wouldn't have been wasted. I don't know what the heck they were thinking with having him rebelling so early. He either was impatient, and did that of his own accord, or it had some kind of connection to the Western Church, which all signs point to having some kind of connection with Cornelia because the base of the Western Church is Arianrhod. 

Lonato is needed at that time as a pawn. Its during the rebellion that the church *found* Rhea assassination plan, which allow the agatheans to steal SOTC

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

14 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

If anything, I think it is silver snow that is the odd one out. As in both azure moon and verdant wind. All of the black eagle members join Edelgard, including a few other people like Lorenz and apparently Hanneman. So I assume this is the default position without any intervention from Byleth. They fight with my left against Edelgard for the same reason many non-black eagle members join them in crimson flower, because they trust Byleth. Granted, no black eagle member was present at the holy tomb in those routes. 

I personally think that you should have been given the opportunity to join Edelgard before the holy tomb mission, not after. I had already made up my mind by that point, and I found it frustrating that I basically had to fight her against my will. I also have no idea why Edelgard reveals herself before the fight even starts in this route. If you have to fight anyway. Maybe they should have saved the reveal for after that fight like every other route. If she is going to reveal herself, at least grant the player the option to sign of her before the mission. I think that would make a lot more sense in terms of believability.

By the way, I do strongly recommend playing crimson flower, it has its flaws, but it is a really good route regardless and the most different in the entire game. The supports with Edelgard really humanises her as a character and explains why many of these people would join with her.

The only route in the game I haven't played is silver snow, I will do it one day. But I did do it last as for me as someone was started with crimson flower, the members of the black eagle house going against Edelgard just feels wrong to me. Many of these people I originally knew as close friends of hers, so it is heartbreaking to see them like that.

Considering that SS is the easier route to get into, and as such is the default route for the BE, there are arguments to be made against them joining Edelgard by default. As for your statement about joining Edelgard before the mission, I completely disagree. Playing through BE first as I did the impact of it being after the fact was far more intense for me... though in the opposite way it was for you because it absolutely solidified that I could never support her. In fact CF and SS ended up being the last routes I completed purely because of Edelgard. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate her character more now that I've completely played through the game but that doesn't change that she turned me off of her so intensely at first impressions that I completely dropped her route. However I do agree that people should play all 4 paths of the game to fully appreciate the characters and their stances.

That being said, my own opinions on who might turn traitor.

BE:
Ferdinand - technically I could see him going either way but he seems the type to go against Edelgard if he felt he couldn't get her to listen to reason.
Petra - She's technically a political hostage, I can see her fighting the empire more than Edelgard specifically though if only to help free her country.
Linhardt - Probably just wouldn't participate.
Dorothea - Hates fighting. Likely wouldn't fight.
Bernie - More likely to hide in her room than actually fight.

BL:
Felix - I can see a case being made for him because of his hatred of Faerghus knighthood ideals but I don't really agree with it. Especially because he seems so miserable in CF.
Mercedes - Family is quite important to her so a decision between Emile and the church that she supports so strongly could go either way.
The others seem too loyal to their families and home to defect and they're almost all warriors so I can't see them staying out of the conflict either.

GD:
Lorenz - It's politically advantageous for his family to align with the Empire and with Edelgard.
Lysithea - She hates the Agarthans and will take most chances to take them down.
The others would be too loyal (Hilda), neutral (Raphael, Ignatz, Marianne), or mercenary like (Leonie's goal is to be a merc) for me to really say they'd defect.

[omegaxis1]

 

Honestly, I feel one key thing people tend to forget in CF (particularly those that thing that it makes no sense why anyone would join Edelgard) is that it's the route where everyone sees Rhea having a meltdown and see her turn into a giant monster right before their eyes. Not exactly something that people can just unsee once they see it. 

It's quite the reality breaker there. It's why they are willing to hear Edelgard out, and why she can actually explain why she's fighting the Church. You can't exactly explain why you are opposing the archbishop because no one would believe that the archbishop is secretly a dragon that's been disguising herself as a human for over a thousand years. 

Taking into account how long Rhea's been alive, it makes people wonder just what Rhea had or could have done. It's easy to make your own deductions and think that she could have fabricated much history, and even manipulated many events. And given how many students are fearful of Rhea because of how they have seen how she acts in situations with such ruthlessness, it makes them more unlikely to trust in the Church. 

And knowing what Edelgard is fighting for, wishing to remove the Crests, allow a meritocratic government, and so on, many characters would be on to fight for such a cause. Cause a lot of the students hate the Crest system, and commoner kids want to have social mobility. 

Honestly, I feel that CF is the better route when it comes to realism. Since it's the one route where you can't recruit everyone.

The other routes make terribly little sense. 

Honestly, many students don't even work in the other routes. Hilda in AM for one thing. Why would she be willing to fight under the army of Dimitri when he's being a literal lunatic? 

[vikingsfan92]

38 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Constance actually says she would stop Edelgard without hesitation had she knew about the plan in Chapter 11.

It's actually really strange she wouldn't join one of the anti empire faction if you choose Crimson Flower.

You are using Dialogue made for another route and expecting it to apply to be neutral or apply to CF.  I don't think the non-cf side is the one she would choose without Byleth because of how much effort she puts into trying to get Edelgard's aide.  She implies that she has asked many many times to get her thoughts and help get her aide for restoring her house.  In the dlc she goes to Edelgard over the other lords for the restoration of her house. No way she goes to those lengths with pestering and just gives up on her.  They aren't making a paid dlc charcter leave your party on certain routes that would be super super silly of them to do so they are going to make good dialouge for all routes. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

7 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You are using Dialogue made for another route and expecting it to apply to be neutral or apply to CF.  I don't think the non-cf side is the one she would choose without Byleth because of how much effort she puts into trying to get Edelgard's aide.  She implies that she has asked many many times to get her thoughts and help get her aide for restoring her house.  In the dlc she goes to Edelgard over the other lords for the restoration of her house. No way she goes to those lengths with pestering and just gives up on her.  They aren't making a paid dlc charcter leave your party on certain routes that would be super super silly of them to do so they are going to make good dialouge for all routes. 

This is pretty disingenuous. In order to fully understand a character in a game like 3H you have to look at them on all the routes, not just your favorite/preferred route. Seeing how they react under varying circumstances is the only way to determine what someone might do in a neutral case, so it's entirely fine to use dialogue from different routes. It's still part of Constance's character, it being somewhere other than CF doesn't disqualify it as genuine or canon.

[vikingsfan92]

26 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

This is pretty disingenuous. In order to fully understand a character in a game like 3H you have to look at them on all the routes, not just your favorite/preferred route. Seeing how they react under varying circumstances is the only way to determine what someone might do in a neutral case, so it's entirely fine to use dialogue from different routes. It's still part of Constance's character, it being somewhere other than CF doesn't disqualify it as genuine or canon.

My point is that that is by far more weaker part of the argument and that cf does matter too and I feel he was ignoring it compeltly. Constence has been shown to never give up on what she wants.  She wants Edelgards help and has even in other routes been implied she has been asking non-stop.  Even far more trivial stuff she has been shown to the type who keeps pestering people until she gets what she wants. So I am saying given other stuff the non-cf is more ooc for what she has been shown in the cindered shadows dlc which is the most neutral enviorment.

 

Since it goes against her whole charcter of not giving up until she gets people to give her what she wants.

Edited May 27, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Slyfox]

2 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

By the way, I do strongly recommend playing crimson flower, it has its flaws, but it is a really good route regardless and the most different in the entire game. The supports with Edelgard really humanises her as a character and explains why many of these people would join with her.

I very much look forward to doing so. While I have major grievances with Three Houses, it still is my favorite game of the series. I've never been against Crimson Flower, my only issue was characters joining/not joining Edelgard's side.

The main reason I've taken so long to do play Crimson Flower is because of the burnout I've mentioned. I always go into my games mostly blind, I had no idea about anything regarding the characters when I first played. I played Silver Snow first which was... kind of empty. But I enjoyed it. Then I went into Verdant Wind, still blind. That was a mistake. Nearly identical. That's when the burnout happened. And then spoiled myself on many things from the other routes because I just couldn't bring myself to continue.

If White Clouds was a communal route before you chose to split off into a dedicated path, Three Houses would have been so much more enjoyable for repeat plays.

[Timlugia]

3 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You are using Dialogue made for another route and expecting it to apply to be neutral or apply to CF.  I don't think the non-cf side is the one she would choose without Byleth because of how much effort she puts into trying to get Edelgard's aide.  She implies that she has asked many many times to get her thoughts and help get her aide for restoring her house.  In the dlc she goes to Edelgard over the other lords for the restoration of her house. No way she goes to those lengths with pestering and just gives up on her.  They aren't making a paid dlc charcter leave your party on certain routes that would be super super silly of them to do so they are going to make good dialouge for all routes. 

It's actually not.

It's from Chapter 11 of White Cloud, so Constance is against Edelgard's plan from the beginning without Byleth making choices first.

So yes, it is arguably her neutral position.

She's also the only Black Eagle with special battle dialogue against Edelgard here

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Throne_of_Knowledge/Script#.28With_Constance.29

 

 

---------------

If we were talking about post skip, she actually states she will build a new House Nuvelle by fighting Edelgard

Quote

• Edelgard: So, House Nuvelle has chosen the path that will lead to its ultimate demise. How pitiable.
• Constance: As you say, I have forfeited my claim on being a noble of the Empire. That is why you must permit me to challenge you in combat, so that I may establish a new House Nuvelle.
• Edelgard: As you wish. Let's see if your resolve is a match for my own.

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/To_War_(Silver_Snow)/Script#Edelgard.C2.A0

Quote

• Constance: What use are words? We are both set on our path.
• Edelgard: How predictable. But so be it. I will now show you my true power!

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Conclusion_of_the_Crossing_Roads_(Silver_Snow)/Script#Vs._Constance

Edited May 27, 2020 by Timlugia

[zuibangde]

I think for almost all students, it makes little sense for them to defect their home country. This is why I didn’t like the recruiting students element of the game. It’s one thing to say each route is an alternate reality but it’s another to completely alter the characters’ personalities and beliefs so that they fit whichever ‘reality’ you’re currently playing. 
 

The most glaring example is BE students in SS and CF. 
 

With that being said, BE students fighting for Edelgard was the weirdest for me. Realistically, I don’t see Linhardt, Bernie and Dorothea volunteering to go fight in the war. Petra is basically a political hostage (and she realizes this) and it would’ve been the perfect time to create an uprising but nope. Ferdinand has obvious reasons (stated many times in this thread) for not sticking with Edelgard.

I don’t see them defecting but I also don’t see them willingly show up to fight in the war just cause of a reunion promise made 5 years ago.

Edited May 27, 2020 by zuibangde