Jump to content
haarhaarhaar

Who should have betrayed their faction?

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Once Rhea burns down the capital, Ashe should be able to get recruited by the Black Eagles at that point. 

Him and Annette both. Ashe and Annette are too wholesome to side with a crazy Rhea no matter how desperate they become. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Once Rhea burns down the capital, Ashe should be able to get recruited by the Black Eagles at that point. 

Instead he blames the Empire for it. 

57 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Him and Annette both. Ashe and Annette are too wholesome to side with a crazy Rhea no matter how desperate they become. 

Eh, that's a bit debatable. 

Cause the thing is, Annette has many reasons NOT to oppose the Church or Faerghus. Her family and other friends live in Fhirdiad, her father is loyal to the Church and Kingdom.

Honestly, my friends and I went over it, and out of everyone, Annette has the most reason not to join Edelgard. She might have issues with Rhea, but she seems like someone that doesn't have the most likely to abandon her own family members. 

It would have made sense if she expressed that she can't come back because she sees Rhea as a monster and she has to put her feelings for her family aside. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Cause the thing is, Annette has many reasons NOT to oppose the Church or Faerghus. Her family and other friends live in Fhirdiad, her father is loyal to the Church and Kingdom.

Honestly, my friends and I went over it, and out of everyone, Annette has the most reason not to join Edelgard. She might have issues with Rhea, but she seems like someone that doesn't have the most likely to abandon her own family members.

In general it doesn't seem out of character for Annette to join the church. However it does become out of character when she's still on that side after Rhea decides to set Fhirdiad on fire. 

Annette doesn't seem the type to abandon her family indeed. However in most routes her family is aligned with the empire. Baron Dominic may not like it but he's an Imperial stooge in most routes, though admitingly not in Crimson Flower. In fact her scrapped betrayal in Azure Moon may have stemmed from that fact. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In general it doesn't seem out of character for Annette to join the church. However it does become out of character when she's still on that side after Rhea decides to set Fhirdiad on fire. 

Annette doesn't seem the type to abandon her family indeed. However in most routes her family is aligned with the empire. Baron Dominic may not like it but he's an Imperial stooge in most routes, though admitingly not in Crimson Flower. In fact her scrapped betrayal in Azure Moon may have stemmed from that fact. 

That's the funny thing. In the non-CF routes, Fhirdiad's been captured thanks to Cornelia's coup. Annette makes sense to be on the Empire's side during the non-CF routes, but the funny thing is that during CF, her family is with Faerghus still, because Cornelia's coup didn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In general it doesn't seem out of character for Annette to join the church. However it does become out of character when she's still on that side after Rhea decides to set Fhirdiad on fire. 

Annette doesn't seem the type to abandon her family indeed. However in most routes her family is aligned with the empire. Baron Dominic may not like it but he's an Imperial stooge in most routes, though admitingly not in Crimson Flower. In fact her scrapped betrayal in Azure Moon may have stemmed from that fact. 

I can't think of a single person who should remain after Rhea sets Fhirdiad on fire. With the possible exception of Cyril. Even Catherine seems to be bothered by this, it is by this point, they should realise that Rhea has lost it.

I do think that Seteth and Flayn would also of yet to the burning of Fhirdiad if they were still around at that point. 

But this is right at the end of the war, so maybe it doesn't matter. Everyone's allegiance would have been the same up to this point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Ferdinand, despite his issues, does hold great admiration for Edelgard and actually is the one with the biggest issues with fighting against Edelgard, and is the most saddened by the Empire's defeat and Edelgard's death.

And yet he's the one who sais that she should die in SS.

Spoiler

Ferdinand: We have already killed Hubert. Now is no time to hesitate.

Caspar: She has it coming! After all, she started this war!

Bernadetta: Someone has to stop her, and that someone is us!

Linhardt: As her former classmates, I feel we owe it to her to try talking it out.

Petra: This battle will be a deciding one. I am believing that it is her wish to be facing us.

Dorothea: Poor Edie... Professor, wherever you lead, I'll follow.

Ferdinand and Caspar are adamant in finishing her off, Petra and Bernardetta want to stop her themselves and Dorothea and Linhardt hoped that there was a more peaceful way.

18 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's why Rhea's reveal was so shocking to everyone when Byleth chose to protect Edelgard. Hell, Byleth wasn't even siding with Edelgard as opposed to just not wanting to kill his student. Rather than try to avoid further bloodshed, Rhea went insane and tried to kill Byleth

And yet Edelgard was the first one deploying beasts in the battlefield, at least two of them, a couple of hours before. Everybody knew that the Flame Emperor was responsible for the massacre at Remire, and no one would have restrained themselves from taking its life. However, when they see that the big baddie is their Valedictorian, it's all weird and all.

Everyone knew that Rhea had high hopes for Byleth and holded him in great steem. They probably had seen her fighting in her human form (during Ashe's paralogue), constraining her power. To anyone who has been betrayed by someone who was very close, snapping at that moment may be something regretable, but understandable. When you're betrayed, you don't want to see that person as a human, so that your resolve doesn't weaver, and it takes time to come over it. There would be a shocking reaction to her being a dragon, but just because they way she shows herself.

19 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, the reason I disagree with various things is that no Black Eagle is fighting because they are forced to. Edelgard never once forces her friends to fight for her. Hell, even Dorothea, who hates the violence, fought out of her own free will. Petra was argued to be doing this cause she's a hostage, but Petra insists that she's in this because she wants to.

The students side with Byleth, not with Edelgard and that's because of her concealment of her plans. If they aren't recruited by Byleth, they would likely be tagged as Slytherins, and be seen as spies or traitors, so they are left little choice, but to hide or stay with the ones that trusted them. Being in Byleth's inner circle in non-CF routes was a safe card. Even Linhardt aknowledges being looked upon as a traitor in one of his exploration conversations. And the fact that Edelgard started the war actually forces her friends to fight. If she, after being crowned Empress, had made a proclamation of her views instead of launching a sneak attack, the other BE would have been able to choose freely to fight or not. She didn't give them that option. She had chosen that they had to fight, they just had to choose the side, and the only key player to level that was Byleth.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

And yet he's the one who sais that she should die in SS.

  Hide contents

Ferdinand: We have already killed Hubert. Now is no time to hesitate.

Caspar: She has it coming! After all, she started this war!

Bernadetta: Someone has to stop her, and that someone is us!

Linhardt: As her former classmates, I feel we owe it to her to try talking it out.

Petra: This battle will be a deciding one. I am believing that it is her wish to be facing us.

Dorothea: Poor Edie... Professor, wherever you lead, I'll follow.

Ferdinand and Caspar are adamant in finishing her off, Petra and Bernardetta want to stop her themselves and Dorothea and Linhardt hoped that there was a more peaceful way.

And yet Edelgard was the first one deploying beasts in the battlefield, at least two of them, a couple of hours before. Everybody knew that the Flame Emperor was responsible for the massacre at Remire, and no one would have restrained themselves from taking its life. However, when they see that the big baddie is their Valedictorian, it's all weird and all.

Everyone knew that Rhea had high hopes for Byleth and holded him in great steem. They probably had seen her fighting in her human form (during Ashe's paralogue), constraining her power. To anyone who has been betrayed by someone who was very close, snapping at that moment may be something regretable, but understandable. When you're betrayed, you don't want to see that person as a human, so that your resolve doesn't weaver, and it takes time to come over it. There would be a shocking reaction to her being a dragon, but just because they way she shows herself.

The students side with Byleth, not with Edelgard and that's because of her concealment of her plans. If they aren't recruited by Byleth, they would likely be tagged as Slytherins, and be seen as spies or traitors, so they are left little choice, but to hide or stay with the ones that trusted them. Being in Byleth's inner circle in non-CF routes was a safe card. Even Linhardt aknowledges being looked upon as a traitor in one of his exploration conversations. And the fact that Edelgard started the war actually forces her friends to fight. If she, after being crowned Empress, had made a proclamation of her views instead of launching a sneak attack, the other BE would have been able to choose freely to fight or not. She didn't give them that option. She had chosen that they had to fight, they just had to choose the side, and the only key player to level that was Byleth.

 

But the Flame Emperor directly denies being responsible for the Remire incident. Granted, maybe only Byleth knows that. Still, you would think that this will would a fact worth mentioning to the rest of them. The number one error everyone makes is assuming the Flame Emperor is the mastermind when they weren't. But most I guess wouldn't understand that there is a separation between Flame Emperor followers and the Agarthans.

Also, the dialogue you use as an example, does seem to be from exactly before the final battle. That is the way into the war, Ferdinand is just essentially saying that they have to finish what we started, it is way too late to turn back now. Which is absolutely logical given the situation. Silver snow is only one out of four routes, it is the outlier as Ferdinand is very loyal in the other 3.

But considering Dorothea seemed to be reluctant to fight Edie even in silver snow, so I guess I do have to give her the gold medal for loyalty to Edelgard over Ferdinand. Maybe she wouldn't usually choose to fight, but I always got the impression she had a very strong friendship with Edelgard, so I believe she would at least be supportive of her in most cases. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, paladin21 said:

And yet he's the one who sais that she should die in SS.

  Hide contents

Ferdinand: We have already killed Hubert. Now is no time to hesitate.

Caspar: She has it coming! After all, she started this war!

Bernadetta: Someone has to stop her, and that someone is us!

Linhardt: As her former classmates, I feel we owe it to her to try talking it out.

Petra: This battle will be a deciding one. I am believing that it is her wish to be facing us.

Dorothea: Poor Edie... Professor, wherever you lead, I'll follow.

Ferdinand and Caspar are adamant in finishing her off, Petra and Bernardetta want to stop her themselves and Dorothea and Linhardt hoped that there was a more peaceful way.

You're taking things out of context. Caspar is also angry at our side if in VW/AM when we fight him, and even is upset that Byleth and Edelgard didn't come to an understanding. Ferdinand also tells Hubert that it's not even a matter of his own choice, but that they have to do it when Ferdinand fights against Hubert. 

1 hour ago, paladin21 said:

And yet Edelgard was the first one deploying beasts in the battlefield, at least two of them, a couple of hours before. Everybody knew that the Flame Emperor was responsible for the massacre at Remire, and no one would have restrained themselves from taking its life. However, when they see that the big baddie is their Valedictorian, it's all weird and all.

Everyone knew that Rhea had high hopes for Byleth and holded him in great steem. They probably had seen her fighting in her human form (during Ashe's paralogue), constraining her power. To anyone who has been betrayed by someone who was very close, snapping at that moment may be something regretable, but understandable. When you're betrayed, you don't want to see that person as a human, so that your resolve doesn't weaver, and it takes time to come over it. There would be a shocking reaction to her being a dragon, but just because they way she shows herself.

And a few minutes before, they witnessed the archbishop turning into a lunatic and then into a giant monster and hearing from Edelgard that there have been inhuman creatures controlling Fodlan for generations. Simply put, they learn that everything is a mess and they want clarity. So they talk to Edelgard in CF, and guess what? Edelgard explains. 

No matter how you try to rationalize it, you have to realize that seeing Rhea turning into a monster is a serious business. 

Also, Rhea calling Byleth a "failure" makes it less "trusting" and more "controlling". If anything, Rhea's meltdown made them more likely to believe Edelgard's words that Rhea was controlling society for so long. Every student's had issues with Rhea ever since the Lonato incident. 

1 hour ago, paladin21 said:

The students side with Byleth, not with Edelgard and that's because of her concealment of her plans. If they aren't recruited by Byleth, they would likely be tagged as Slytherins, and be seen as spies or traitors, so they are left little choice, but to hide or stay with the ones that trusted them. Being in Byleth's inner circle in non-CF routes was a safe card. Even Linhardt aknowledges being looked upon as a traitor in one of his exploration conversations. And the fact that Edelgard started the war actually forces her friends to fight. If she, after being crowned Empress, had made a proclamation of her views instead of launching a sneak attack, the other BE would have been able to choose freely to fight or not. She didn't give them that option. She had chosen that they had to fight, they just had to choose the side, and the only key player to level that was Byleth.

Um, sorry, but no. 

There is dialogue that clearly shows that the students fight of their own will. Not because they are forced to.

In fact, if you recruit Petra, she even STATES that Edelgard has always been someone that respects the choices others made, and how even if Petra has to oppose Edelgard, she will respect the choice Petra had made. 

Her friends didn't HAVE to fight, actually. Edelgard would not have forced them. Hell, in CF, she even warns them that joining her will mean going to war against the Church and other nations. 

That's just it. Edelgard has ALWAYS been about respecting people's choices. She doesn't force any of her friends to fight for her. They all fight for her because they CHOSE to. 

You're trying to act like Silver Snow of them siding with Byleth means that they were forced to fight for Edelgard in the other routes, when no, that's nothing of the sort.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

But the Flame Emperor directly denies being responsible for the Remire incident. Granted, maybe only Byleth knows that. Still, you would think that this will would a fact worth mentioning to the rest of them. The number one error everyone makes is assuming the Flame Emperor is the mastermind when they weren't. But most I guess wouldn't understand that there is a separation between Flame Emperor followers and the Agarthans.

Actually, the number one error is letting it happen. You can't just let loose some questionable allies and then shrug off the responsibility for their misdeeds. We know there's a line between the Flame Emperor and the Agarthans, but any of the students know of it. Edelgard was with them in most of the missions, but she actually used beasts when attacking the Throne, and, knowing the origin of the beasts, that makes the line blurrier.

3 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Also, the dialogue you use as an example, does seem to be from exactly before the final battle. That is the way into the war, Ferdinand is just essentially saying that they have to finish what we started, it is way too late to turn back now. Which is absolutely logical given the situation. Silver snow is only one out of four routes, it is the outlier as Ferdinand is very loyal in the other 3.

It is right before the battle against Edelgard, but I brought it up because I was told earlier that he was the most saddened by the Empire and Edelgard's downfall. Five years later, convictions would have deepened, but just as Dorothea wishes to find a peaceful solution, but so is Byleth. Just as he's asked about killing Edelgard, neither of his possible answers is "I'll rip her head off".

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

There is dialogue that clearly shows that the students fight of their own will. Not because they are forced to.

Her friends didn't HAVE to fight, actually. Edelgard would not have forced them. Hell, in CF, she even warns them that joining her will mean going to war against the Church and other nations. 

That's just it. Edelgard has ALWAYS been about respecting people's choices. She doesn't force any of her friends to fight for her. They all fight for her because they CHOSE to.

Yes, Edelgard allows them to choose. The problem is the choices they have. Side with the Empire, side with people who don't trust you or sit out the war, knowing that you would lose her trust. It's a  maybe-lose/lose/lose dilemma, so they go for the maybe. And they might eventually HAVE to fight. Edelgard started a war she was winning on non-CF routes by the time Byleth woke up, but it could be otherwise. Even if they had secured an alliance with both Gloucester and Rowe (which they hadn't as shown in CF), there was no knowing that it would last. Varley and Bergliez are pretty close to the border. In case of a counterattack, Bernardetta and Caspar would be primary targets along with their families whether they chose it or not. Bernie might even have to see her father vindicated, and there's nothing more terrifying for ther than that. Caspar would have to fight with his father, like it or not. He's just terrified of him. Those choices are biased. They have implications, and if they don't have Byleth's support, they're likely to be distrusted in the other army, and that goes for everyone else.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

In fact, if you recruit Petra, she even STATES that Edelgard has always been someone that respects the choices others made, and how even if Petra has to oppose Edelgard, she will respect the choice Petra had made.

She may respect it, but that doesn't mean it would go without consecuences. Edelgard has never mistreated Petra, having been a refugee herself, but both know Brigid is on the line.

  • Siding with Edelgard is the easiest way to secure a shield for her land, since the Empire is right between Brigid and Faerghus and the Alliance. They would have negotiated her land's freedom after the war for her support, and after a time, it would have become a genuine alliance.
  • If she sides with the other faction, she gets in a powerful position against the country that caused Brigid's humilliating situation. The Empire would have to keep an eye on Brigid in order to avoid being attack from the other side. It would make her people free by their own means. However, she would need an important leader of the other army to trust her, and with Claude more interested in going back to Almyra, she's out of luck.

However, being a hostage of the Empire, chances of her being shipped back to Brigid at the beginning of the war are little. She couldn't choose not to fight, just the side on which she would. Not joining either army could result in getting a room next to Rhea's.

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You're trying to act like Silver Snow of them siding with Byleth means that they were forced to fight for Edelgard in the other routes, when no, that's nothing of the sort.

They were forced to fight, it's just the side which isn't decided. If they don't side against Edelgard, they'd be forced to fight with her (not for her).

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

And a few minutes before, they witnessed the archbishop turning into a lunatic and then into a giant monster and hearing from Edelgard that there have been inhuman creatures controlling Fodlan for generations. Simply put, they learn that everything is a mess and they want clarity. So they talk to Edelgard in CF, and guess what? Edelgard explains. 

No matter how you try to rationalize it, you have to realize that seeing Rhea turning into a monster is a serious business. 

Also, Rhea calling Byleth a "failure" makes it less "trusting" and more "controlling". If anything, Rhea's meltdown made them more likely to believe Edelgard's words that Rhea was controlling society for so long. Every student's had issues with Rhea ever since the Lonato incident.

But that's after Byleth sides with Edelgard. Seeing Rhea tranform into a raging dragon when Byleth protects Edelgerd would scare the crap out of many. However, other characters would feel just as betrayed by Byleth as Rhea, just like Leonie and Alois tell him as enemies in CF. I'd even say that seeing her transformation in CF would even deter some would-be-defectors to flee.

6 hours ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

I can't think of a single person who should remain after Rhea sets Fhirdiad on fire. With the possible exception of Cyril. Even Catherine seems to be bothered by this, it is by this point, they should realise that Rhea has lost it.

I do think that Seteth and Flayn would also of yet to the burning of Fhirdiad if they were still around at that point. 

But this is right at the end of the war, so maybe it doesn't matter. Everyone's allegiance would have been the same up to this point

I totally agree with this. It's the final battle, Dimitri is dead and Claude is gone as well. Whoever changed sides during that battle would probably be labeled as a coward. However, Annette, Ashe and maybe Gilbert wouldn't fight for Rhea. I'm not so sure about Gilbert, but it would depend on the faith he had on Rhea after Dimitri's demise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

Yes, Edelgard allows them to choose. The problem is the choices they have. Side with the Empire, side with people who don't trust you or sit out the war, knowing that you would lose her trust. It's a  maybe-lose/lose/lose dilemma, so they go for the maybe. And they might eventually HAVE to fight. Edelgard started a war she was winning on non-CF routes by the time Byleth woke up, but it could be otherwise. Even if they had secured an alliance with both Gloucester and Rowe (which they hadn't as shown in CF), there was no knowing that it would last. Varley and Bergliez are pretty close to the border. In case of a counterattack, Bernardetta and Caspar would be primary targets along with their families whether they chose it or not. Bernie might even have to see her father vindicated, and there's nothing more terrifying for ther than that. Caspar would have to fight with his father, like it or not. He's just terrified of him. Those choices are biased. They have implications, and if they don't have Byleth's support, they're likely to be distrusted in the other army, and that goes for everyone else.

It's not even a "lose her trust". You can literally choose not to get involved period. It isn't a case where all choices lead to death. Oppose her, do nothing, or fight for her. Not choosing to fight for her doesn't mean you would be against her. But they have to decide on what they WANT to do. And the BE students are fine with fighting for her, as proven by VW/AM. 

8 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

She may respect it, but that doesn't mean it would go without consecuences. Edelgard has never mistreated Petra, having been a refugee herself, but both know Brigid is on the line.

  • Siding with Edelgard is the easiest way to secure a shield for her land, since the Empire is right between Brigid and Faerghus and the Alliance. They would have negotiated her land's freedom after the war for her support, and after a time, it would have become a genuine alliance.
  • If she sides with the other faction, she gets in a powerful position against the country that caused Brigid's humilliating situation. The Empire would have to keep an eye on Brigid in order to avoid being attack from the other side. It would make her people free by their own means. However, she would need an important leader of the other army to trust her, and with Claude more interested in going back to Almyra, she's out of luck.

However, being a hostage of the Empire, chances of her being shipped back to Brigid at the beginning of the war are little. She couldn't choose not to fight, just the side on which she would. Not joining either army could result in getting a room next to Rhea's.

Yeah, Shamir literally brings up how she's a hostage, and she responds with that she isn't, but is instead the Empire's blade. She values Edelgard and apologizes to her for failing. Dorothea also apologizes too. 

9 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

They were forced to fight, it's just the side which isn't decided. If they don't side against Edelgard, they'd be forced to fight with her (not for her).

No, they aren't. Stop trying to say that they are forced to fight against their will. They have every right to refuse to fight, period. 

They CHOSE to fight, but here you are, trying to insist that it wasn't even an actual choice, when no, it was entirely their own choice. 

In fact, your use of Silver Snow has the case that they only side against Edelgard because Byleth did. Keep in mind that Byleth is a literal god and everyone praises him to practically worshipping him. Nearly everyone is willing to betray their nation for him. 

Remove Byleth's influence, and the BE students side with Edelgard of their own will. Even Hanneman and Manuela. 

Also, here's another thing. Any BE student defeated in Part 1 of Silver Snow route and doesn't join are mentioned by Edelgard to have joined her.

So, I'll repeat. Edelgard NEVER forces the BE students to fight for her. You're projecting fallacies onto this. 

12 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

But that's after Byleth sides with Edelgard. Seeing Rhea tranform into a raging dragon when Byleth protects Edelgerd would scare the crap out of many. However, other characters would feel just as betrayed by Byleth as Rhea, just like Leonie and Alois tell him as enemies in CF. I'd even say that seeing her transformation in CF would even deter some would-be-defectors to flee.

Read the choices again. 

The choice is "Kill Edelgard" or "Protect Edelgard". The latter isn't him joining her side. It's him defending someone from being killed by Rhea. Rhea was literally going about wanting Edelgard dead, but Byleth is just trying to protect her from being killed. 

Because Edelgard is still BYleth's student and the BE class's classmate. The fact that it's mentioned even in SS/VW routes when Byleth expresses not wanting to kill Edelgard, it's clear that no one wanted her dead. But Rhea didn't even have that, and went nuts. Everyone left and chose to hear Edelgard out and wanting to know what the hell is going on. 

They didn't just side with Edelgard just because Byleth did. They sided with her because they also now know the truth of Fodlan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

They didn't just side with Edelgard just because Byleth did. They sided with her because they also now know the truth of Fodlan. 

you might want to correct that none of the students from the Black eagle side edelgard included knows anything about the truth of fodlan.  

 

Edelgard throughout the entire crimson flower route literally lies and gives them complete misdirection about everything. It doesn't help that she's working with very biased information herself. The Black eagle students are mostly just convenient tools rather than actual friends. Hell even us the main character doesn't hear every secret from edelgard.

 

And to add my own point to this thread.

The Black eagle students are also the only students with an actual canonical route where they leave their Lord. Which shows that they are technically the ones who are most likely to not fight for their side. All of the other students being recruited are what ifs. But with the black eagles you have to make them at the top of the list because they're the only ones who actually left their Lord.

 

There's no headcanon about it they're the ones who legit leave. But if I had to make a list the top of it would be Caspar. He's the only one who legit calls edelgard out.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

you might want to correct that none of the students from the Black eagle side edelgard included knows anything about the truth of fodlan.  

Edelgard throughout the entire crimson flower route literally lies and gives them complete misdirection about everything. It doesn't help that she's working with very biased information herself. The Black eagle students are mostly just convenient tools rather than actual friends. Hell even us the main character doesn't hear every secret from edelgard.

And to add my own point to this thread.

The Black eagle students are also the only students with an actual canonical route where they leave their Lord. Which shows that they are technically the ones who are most likely to not fight for their side. All of the other students being recruited are what ifs. But with the black eagles you have to make them at the top of the list because they're the only ones who actually left their Lord.

There's no headcanon about it they're the ones who legit leave. But if I had to make a list the top of it would be Caspar. He's the only one who legit calls edelgard out.

... Edelgard has lied a total of 1 time in CF. She has not been lying "throughout the entire" route as you are trying to insist on. She really doesn't. Edelgard has hardly lied, or given misdirection about anything. In fact, it's the more the opposite, in that she's been trying to get you to realize what she's trying to do. 

And now you are trying to say that Edelgard sees them as tools? Dude, I feel you didn't pay a hint of attention to Edelgard if you actually said something like that. What you said is blatantly false

Also, Silver Snow route having the Black Eagles leave is purely cause of Byleth. That's not a case of them "canonically" being someone that would leave Edelgard. It just pushes the case that Byleth is the "god" that basically everyone worships. No different from how every student comes to Garreg Mach purely cause of a reunion promise made five years ago. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And now you are trying to say that Edelgard sees them as tools? Dude, I feel you didn't pay a hint of attention to Edelgard if you actually said something like that. What you said is blatantly false

I never said that she sees them as tools I said that their relationship is that of being tools to her there's a big difference.

 

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, Silver Snow route having the Black Eagles leave is purely cause of Byleth. That's not a case of them "canonically" being someone that would leave Edelgard. It just pushes the case that Byleth is the "god" that basically everyone worships. No different from how every student comes to Garreg Mach purely cause of a reunion promise made five years ago. 

They still leave just to follow their teacher if anything that helps the point that I'm trying to make.

 

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard has lied a total of 1 time in CF. She has not been lying "throughout the entire" route as you are trying to insist on. She really doesn't. Edelgard has hardly lied, or given misdirection about anything. In fact, it's the more the opposite, in that she's been trying to get you to realize what she's trying to do. 

The one lie that you're trying to use as a defense of her truthfulness is very massively terrible. The entire first part of white clouds is misdirection and lies. Some of the stuff she says about the church is flat up made up. She said she sent all the manifest that we never see anything about. Edelgard in the entirety of her character is an unreliable narrator. We are told from edelgard what she does we are never actually shown. You can either chalk it up to terrible storytelling or an intentional design choice.

 

The game itself gives you hints about it. there are NPCs that fly out tell us not to trust everything about edelgard.

 

I get it you like edelgard but you should look at this from a neutral side. I'm not trying to insult the character.

Edited by jawaunw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jawaunw said:

I never said that she sees them as tools I said that their relationship is that of being tools to her there's a big difference.

 

They still leave just to follow their teacher if anything that helps the point that I'm trying to make.

 

The one lie that you're trying to use as a defense of her truthfulness is very massively terrible. The entire first part of white clouds is misdirection and lies. Some of the stuff she says about the church is flat up made up. She said she sent all the manifest that we never see anything about. Edelgard in the entirety of her character is an unreliable narrator. We are told from edelgard what she does we are never actually shown. You can either chalk it up to terrible storytelling or an intentional design choice.

 

The game itself gives you hints about it. there are NPCs that fly out tell us not to trust everything about edelgard.

 

I get it you like edelgard but you should look at this from a neutral side. I'm not trying to insult the character.

Are you certain about that as you are hardly neutral yourself as your anti-Edelgard bias is obvious. You do have a certain track record. But it is okay as long as you try to keep to the facts, after all, true objectivity is impossible. Even with the same information we are going to interpret it differently. 

I think you failed to consider the far more plausible option. Edelgard doesn't know the full truth of everything and is just speculating about a lot of things and sometimes she is mistaken. I am assuming you are referring to the church being behind purposefully splitting the Empire into several pieces to weaken it? If you pay attention to some of the books in the shadow library. There is actually an insinuation that it is correct that someone did it deliberately worked behind the scenes to split the Empire into pieces to propagate war and conflict. Edelgard is only wrong about the perpetrator, as it was in reality the Agarthans. So, she is technically right about someone deliberately supporting Loog in order to weaken the Empire, but wrong about the culprit as Agarthans to try to blame the church for the incident. She just happens to fall for their trick. Yet it cannot be argued that the church didn't benefit from the deal with Faerghus, it is just that the church took the bait that would later be used against them in motivating the Empire to fight. Even if some of the stuff she says about the church is made up, Edelgard still obviously believe it and wasn't the one who made it up.

Also, literally everything in this game is from an unreliable narrator as everything is someone's perspective. One you know about the world history but isn't in the hidden library is literally church propaganda. And hidden library has an anti-church bias , so it isn't fully reliable either. There is also no guarantee that Rhea is actually telling the truth at the end of verdant wind. It is always the truth according to someone, even if they do believe it. There might still be all kinds of misconceptions. This isn't unique to Edelgard. And yes, I believe that Rhea likely believe her version of events that she tells Claude. But she is still horribly biased and there is some signs she might have be underestimating the benevolence of her mother as there are some signs that Sothis might have committed genocide on the Agarthans. Something that Rhea probably believes is justified because she could never comprehend that her mother would ever do anything wrong.

Furthermore, the reason she lied about destroyed Arianrhod is blatantly obvious, how is it especially terrible? It is obviously  because provoking the Agarthans at this point would be incredibly stupid after making such a demonstration of power. The Agarthans would likely take Edelgard revealing their existence to the rest of the Empire as another act of defiance and nuke Enbarr if she told her troops the truth about what really happened at Arianrhod. You have to remember that they are a shadow action that very few people know exist, so if Edelgard can't reveal their existence to the Empire as a whole, blaming the church is the only logical option. It also helps that the church already have taken credit for the valley of torment in the past in an attempt to hide the existence of the Agarthans, which makes this lie quite believable.

My point here is that there are strong incentives to not want people to know about the existence of those who slither in the dark and the lie is entirely in service of not angering them further as long as they still have the church to fight. So it is entirely possible that by making this decision, Edelgard could have saved quite a number of lives. Is it better to blame an atrocity on it action not responsible for it or risk another city being destroyed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, jawaunw said:

I never said that she sees them as tools I said that their relationship is that of being tools to her there's a big difference.

They still leave just to follow their teacher if anything that helps the point that I'm trying to make.

The one lie that you're trying to use as a defense of her truthfulness is very massively terrible. The entire first part of white clouds is misdirection and lies. Some of the stuff she says about the church is flat up made up. She said she sent all the manifest that we never see anything about. Edelgard in the entirety of her character is an unreliable narrator. We are told from edelgard what she does we are never actually shown. You can either chalk it up to terrible storytelling or an intentional design choice.

The game itself gives you hints about it. there are NPCs that fly out tell us not to trust everything about edelgard.

I get it you like edelgard but you should look at this from a neutral side. I'm not trying to insult the character.

For someone telling me to be neutral, your words are riddled with bias over being anti-Edelgard. 

And again, no. The students leaving Edelgard in Silver Snow only shows how they are with Byleth's influence. I mean, look at Ashe and Lorenz, who join the Empire even if you recruit them on certain routes and have to re-recruit them again. They only don't need to be if you are on their house's path. It just shows how Byleth's influence works. So the Black Eagle students aren't all against Edelgard or would be "canonically" at all. 

And Edelgard has definitely not been lying or making up. There's only been 1 lie she said, and it was regarding Arianrhod. That's the one and ONLY lie she ever made. Everything else goes up to the matter of perspective from how she actually knows more of the truth than 99% of Fodlan does. Since the rest of Fodlan have been fed the many lies of the Chruch. You know, the Church run by Rhea, who has factually falsified history for her own purposes. The writers themselves remark that the history of Fodlan can hardly be trusted because of Rhea. Edelgard's the only one that knew some of the truth, even if it's lacking in certain context. 

Because when you are holding some of the truth, and then see through the rest of the lies, then the rest comes to your own interpretation. 

Cause how would Edelgard have learned the entire truth when the people that KNOWS the truth went through great lengths to HIDE the truth? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The choice is "Kill Edelgard" or "Protect Edelgard". The latter isn't him joining her side. It's him defending someone from being killed by Rhea. Rhea was literally going about wanting Edelgard dead, but Byleth is just trying to protect her from being killed.

Read between lines, the choices are "kill the Flame Emperor, who has attacked the Monastery where you now live, endangering everyone who live in it students and merchants alike" or "protect the Flame Emperor, demonstrating that you actually believe their attack was justified".

10 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's not even a "lose her trust". You can literally choose not to get involved period. It isn't a case where all choices lead to death. Oppose her, do nothing, or fight for her. Not choosing to fight for her doesn't mean you would be against her. But they have to decide on what they WANT to do. And the BE students are fine with fighting for her, as proven by VW/AM.

It's an all-out war. You can't just sit that one out. If the Faerghus-Leicester troops want to get to Edelgard, they have to cross through Varley, Bergliez and Aegir. In order to protect their people, Bernie, Caspar and Ferdinand have to fight. And all three of them have reasons not to sit out:

  • If Varley falls, Bernardetta's abusive father would be reinstated, so she can fight to avoid it or to have a say in his fate.
  • Caspar isn't forced by Edelgard to fight, but I'd say that being his father the Minister of war, he wouldn't allow him to stay away from battle. Caspar is terrified of his father and he would never say "I don't want to fight" to him. I think his father would even be proud if Caspar decided to fight against him, as he'd see his son showing some spine by facing the man he fears and respects the most.
  • Ferdinand is a noblesse oblige kind of man. At the early stages of war, he'd have to choose a side, but not fighting is out of the question.
11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, Shamir literally brings up how she's a hostage, and she responds with that she isn't, but is instead the Empire's blade. She values Edelgard and apologizes to her for failing. Dorothea also apologizes too.

That's five years into the war, by that time Edelgard would have loosen on the restrictions Brigid had, becoming fully supportive of one another.

Spoiler

Silver Snow: I have had the arrival of a letter from Edelgard. She is asking...that I join her side. She is making the decision...no, she is deciding if Brigid is a friend or an enemy of the Empire. But my choice is not to be friends. My choice is to fight with you. Brigid is not a friend of the Empire. We will not be following again. We will be ready to fight with you instead.

Crimson Flower: The Empire and Brigid were once warring with each other. But now, I have made the decision to be fighting with the Empire. It is a choice of irony, I feel. But I am having no regret. My belief is with you and with Edelgard.

This is what Petra says right before Edelgard's attack on the Monastery. She didn't have the option to stay out of the fight. She had to choose a side, for her and for Brigid and the rest of the BE were in similar positions.

While I agree that siding with Edelgard is quite understandable in CF, it's forced in any other route. However, after five years of war, everyone has come to believe in their side of the story.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, paladin21 said:

Read between lines, the choices are "kill the Flame Emperor, who has attacked the Monastery where you now live, endangering everyone who live in it students and merchants alike" or "protect the Flame Emperor, demonstrating that you actually believe their attack was justified".

Did you not even recall what I said about SS/VW? Even when fighting against Edelgard in the war, Byleth STILL remarks that he doesn't want to kill Edelgard. Also, if you wanna look between the lines, how about this. Byleth saw Edelgard's coronation and knows the horrors that Duke Aegir did, but where Edelgard merely stripped him off his powers when he was at her mercy, rather than killing him, Byleth is seeing Rhea do the opposite when Edelgard is at her mercy. 

Killing the Emperor of Adrestia is the same as declaring war on Adrestia. 

You wanna look at this logically, then if you want to save MORE lives, don't kill Edelgard even more. 

Protecting Edelgard from Rhea is hardly him "justifying" anything of her.

5 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

It's an all-out war. You can't just sit that one out. If the Faerghus-Leicester troops want to get to Edelgard, they have to cross through Varley, Bergliez and Aegir. In order to protect their people, Bernie, Caspar and Ferdinand have to fight. And all three of them have reasons not to sit out:

  • If Varley falls, Bernardetta's abusive father would be reinstated, so she can fight to avoid it or to have a say in his fate.
  • Caspar isn't forced by Edelgard to fight, but I'd say that being his father the Minister of war, he wouldn't allow him to stay away from battle. Caspar is terrified of his father and he would never say "I don't want to fight" to him. I think his father would even be proud if Caspar decided to fight against him, as he'd see his son showing some spine by facing the man he fears and respects the most.
  • Ferdinand is a noblesse oblige kind of man. At the early stages of war, he'd have to choose a side, but not fighting is out of the question.

No. They 100% don't have to fight. 

Just as Edelgard does in Crimson Flower, she gives her friends a CHOICE. 

You're trying to push the idea that Edelgard "strongarms" them into joining her cause, but no, she never does. They join her because they they have their own beliefs and emotions, and they feel that they should fight for Edelgard, but they still had a choice when given. They could have chosen to walk away, but they chose to fight for her because of their own beliefs toward her. 

9 minutes ago, paladin21 said:

That's five years into the war, by that time Edelgard would have loosen on the restrictions Brigid had, becoming fully supportive of one another.

  Hide contents

Silver Snow: I have had the arrival of a letter from Edelgard. She is asking...that I join her side. She is making the decision...no, she is deciding if Brigid is a friend or an enemy of the Empire. But my choice is not to be friends. My choice is to fight with you. Brigid is not a friend of the Empire. We will not be following again. We will be ready to fight with you instead.

Crimson Flower: The Empire and Brigid were once warring with each other. But now, I have made the decision to be fighting with the Empire. It is a choice of irony, I feel. But I am having no regret. My belief is with you and with Edelgard.

This is what Petra says right before Edelgard's attack on the Monastery. She didn't have the option to stay out of the fight. She had to choose a side, for her and for Brigid and the rest of the BE were in similar positions.

While I agree that siding with Edelgard is quite understandable in CF, it's forced in any other route. However, after five years of war, everyone has come to believe in their side of the story.

You should also see how Petra reacts in the VW/AM where you don't recruit her:

Quote

Petra: I am owing big debts to Duke Gerth of the Empire. He is the Minister of Affairs that are Foreign. He is a friend of Edelgard. He is to her side. What should I be doing?

You need to step away from the idea that Edelgard "forces" her friends to fight for her. 

Fact is, no. She doesn't.

The key characteristic of Edelgard that no other character gives is the case of choice.

AM, VW, and SS, the other characters never really take your choice into account and just expects you to fight with them and take over.

Edelgard in both SS and in CF always takes Byleth's choices into accounts and wants to ask if they will stand with them or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, paladin21 said:

This is what Petra says right before Edelgard's attack on the Monastery. She didn't have the option to stay out of the fight. She had to choose a side, for her and for Brigid and the rest of the BE were in similar positions.

While I agree that siding with Edelgard is quite understandable in CF, it's forced in any other route. However, after five years of war, everyone has come to believe in their side of the story.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

You should also see how Petra reacts in the VW/AM where you don't recruit her:

You need to step away from the idea that Edelgard "forces" her friends to fight for her. 

In an effort to put this thread back on track (though I'm also ridiculously guilty of tangents all the time) it is of course canonically the case that Petra fights for the Empire (as I made clear when I began the thread).

The question I'm asking is whether that's the side she 'should' have been on. I personally think it is, because at the time of making the decision (Ch.11-12) the Empire appears stronger than any other combatant in the upcoming war. Petra's primary motivation is to ensure the safety and survival of Brigid, and being on the side of the victor is what would allow Brigid to become independent.

But what that means in practice is that on non-CF routes, she ought to betray Edelgard once Byleth reaches Enbarr, because at that point it's likely that Edelgard is going to lose, and if Petra dies too* then she will be unable to ensure Brigid's independence - she could bargain with Byleth/the other lords to join their side in return for ensuring Brigid's independence. Unlike every other student in the Black Eagles, she has no pre-existing ties to anything in Adrestia (or Fodlan as a whole) that is directly threatened by the war**, and so ought to be more cutthroat about the side she fights with.

She has a personal code of honour that is a big part of why she fights with the Black Eagles when you don't recruit her - she is loyal to her friends, and considers Edelgard one of them, as well as feeling a (potentially misguided) sense of debt to the Empire. So even when it's logical to betray the Empire (which is whenever you fight her on non-BE routes), she doesn't. It's a case where Petra 'should' betray the Empire, but doesn't take the action that's actually best for Brigid.

Interestingly, this line of thought makes her decision at the route split more difficult - Edelgard's lie about being the Flame Emperor might cast doubt on any promise Edelgard makes to give Brigid its independence, but it's not as if Petra has any attachment to the church or the old Fodlan system, so Petra probably should have chosen Edelgard even if Byleth chooses Rhea.

 

*Technically speaking, you could do LTC/gimmicky clears to avoid killing her on VW/AM, but I'm gonna assume she dies whenever she opposes Byleth.

**Brigid itself gets threatened in her paralogue, but the events of the paralogue only occur with the presence of Byleth in the same faction, and Byleth overrides almost every competing motivation thanks to protagonist powers, so the paralogue only gives Petra reason to double down on whichever side Byleth is fighting for.  It doesn't add anything to an explanation of her motives.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, paladin21 said:

However, being a hostage of the Empire, chances of her being shipped back to Brigid at the beginning of the war are little. She couldn't choose not to fight, just the side on which she would. Not joining either army could result in getting a room next to Rhea's.

As I said earlier in the thread: this is false. Petra returns to Brigid during the timeskip. She is no longer a hostage at this point. If she wanted to stay out of the war, she could. She doesn't because sitting on her hands while the future of Brigid is potentially at stake is not something Petra would do.

 

26 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

But what that means in practice is that on non-CF routes, she ought to betray Edelgard once Byleth reaches Enbarr, because at that point it's likely that Edelgard is going to lose, and if Petra dies too* then she will be unable to ensure Brigid's independence - she could bargain with Byleth/the other lords to join their side in return for ensuring Brigid's independence. Unlike every other student in the Black Eagles, she has no pre-existing ties to anything in Adrestia (or Fodlan as a whole) that is directly threatened by the war**, and so ought to be more cutthroat about the side she fights with.

She has a personal code of honour that is a big part of why she fights with the Black Eagles when you don't recruit her - she is loyal to her friends, and considers Edelgard one of them, as well as feeling a (potentially misguided) sense of debt to the Empire. So even when it's logical to betray the Empire (which is whenever you fight her on non-BE routes), she doesn't. It's a case where Petra 'should' betray the Empire, but doesn't take the action that's actually best for Brigid.

I agree with this. A perfectly rational Petra would behave as you describe, and if it were someone like Shamir in Petra's place I'd expect her to change sides. But as important as Brigid is to Petra, it's clear her friends are dearly important to her too, and if she's an enemy on VW/AM she comes across as a very good friend of Edelgard in particular.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree with this. A perfectly rational Petra would behave as you describe, and if it were someone like Shamir in Petra's place I'd expect her to change sides. But as important as Brigid is to Petra, it's clear her friends are dearly important to her too, and if she's an enemy on VW/AM she comes across as a very good friend of Edelgard in particular.

It becomes a matter of how Petra's own values. In VW/AM, if she stays with Edelgard, Petra puts Edelgard above even Brigid, which shows that Petra values Edelgard as a dear friend and refuses to abandon her. 

The only thing that makes Petra push to decide to oppose Edelgard is Byleth. 

Much like many things, everyone has their own reasons, but only Byleth can give everyone the "push" to make the choice to go with fight for or against Edelgard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It becomes a matter of how Petra's own values. In VW/AM, if she stays with Edelgard, Petra puts Edelgard above even Brigid, which shows that Petra values Edelgard as a dear friend and refuses to abandon her.

Don't get me wrong, Petra likes and respects Edelgard, but I think her loyalty is more a case of Petra's code of honour than specifically venerating Edelgard. Petra seems like the type to be against betrayal full stop, regardless of who's on her side. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

You need to step away from the idea that Edelgard "forces" her friends to fight for her. 

Fact is, no. She doesn't.

The key characteristic of Edelgard that no other character gives is the case of choice.

She started a war against the other two countries in the continent. To wage a war she needs soldiers, and the nobles must provide them. It's not a matter of sit out until the war is done. During the war she'll need soldiers, resources, safe passages through territories, etc. If a given noble doesn't comply, she isn't likely to make a detour to find a different approach. We're talking about war here, not a softball game. There are implications for everyone involved, specially Ferdinand, since his father was decomissioned on the word go. Caspar, Bernardetta and Linhardt might be argued to have the option to sit out the war, but they actually don't. You can argue that they could do nothing, like Bernie and Linhardt in SS during the timeskip, but that wouldn't last forever. When your family is asked for reinforcements and they comply, you are complying with them. That is, unless you have cut ties with them before, like Caspar does in SS. If the Empress asks for soldiers, food or weapons, she isn't giving options. But, hey, you can sit confortably in a sofa to read some books while your soldiers follow Edelgard. During a war the only option not to fight is to flee the countries at it, so the third option isn't not fighting, it's leaving Fodlan.

And there is one other character that gives such a choice: Claude. He tells Lysithea to join Edelgard should anything happen to him, so he gave her the choice to turn on him. And just like with Lysithea, I guess he had done that with everyone else, just because he knew that the only way to not fighting was leaving the continent, and at least he had where to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, paladin21 said:

She started a war against the other two countries in the continent. To wage a war she needs soldiers, and the nobles must provide them. It's not a matter of sit out until the war is done. During the war she'll need soldiers, resources, safe passages through territories, etc. If a given noble doesn't comply, she isn't likely to make a detour to find a different approach. We're talking about war here, not a softball game. There are implications for everyone involved, specially Ferdinand, since his father was decomissioned on the word go. Caspar, Bernardetta and Linhardt might be argued to have the option to sit out the war, but they actually don't. You can argue that they could do nothing, like Bernie and Linhardt in SS during the timeskip, but that wouldn't last forever. When your family is asked for reinforcements and they comply, you are complying with them. That is, unless you have cut ties with them before, like Caspar does in SS. If the Empress asks for soldiers, food or weapons, she isn't giving options. But, hey, you can sit confortably in a sofa to read some books while your soldiers follow Edelgard. During a war the only option not to fight is to flee the countries at it, so the third option isn't not fighting, it's leaving Fodlan.

And there is one other character that gives such a choice: Claude. He tells Lysithea to join Edelgard should anything happen to him, so he gave her the choice to turn on him. And just like with Lysithea, I guess he had done that with everyone else, just because he knew that the only way to not fighting was leaving the continent, and at least he had where to go.

Now you're trying to loop around the fact of what Edelgard does and stands for, and trying to push the idea that she gave her friends no choice. Her friends had a choice. Dorothea and Petra had a choice as well. They all had a choice. And they all choice. Trying to say that their choices didn't exist is a fallacy. They have their own beliefs and emotions, and they chose to join her. She didn't say "join me or die". In fact, them joining her will also put them in danger of death. They had the ability to sit the war out or not get involved.

Also, Claude didn't give Lysithea a way out only because he's aware of her issues, in that he's giving the choice to survive. But keep in mind that not all the Golden Deer characters even get involved in the war. Marianne is entirely absent in every route, Ignatz only shows up in CF, Raph only in Gronder for AM/VW. Hilda is the only one that stays with them, but Claude definitely wasn't handing out choices, as he was actually expecting Hilda to be a lazy and unmotivated girl to run away, so he didn't expect her to stay till she died. 

The reason that the BE students all fight to the death in VW/AM if unrecruited is because they do believe in Edelgard and what she is fighting for. 

No matter how much you wanna demonize things about how Edelgard started a war, the choice to fight in the war was entirely up to the character, which Edelgard always gives a choice.

And also, when going about choices, keep in mind that Edelgard's always the one that gives Byleth a choice and respects it. It's why in CF, Byleth firmly states that he chose his path, whereas in the other routes, he's never positive or sure, and is more hesitant than anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Claude definitely wasn't handing out choices, as he was actually expecting Hilda to be a lazy and unmotivated girl to run away, so he didn't expect her to stay till she died.

The bolded part is unfair - it's true Claude wasn't expecting her to lay down her life for the cause, but the only reason that she did was because she wanted to. Claude never asked her (or any named character) to die for his cause at all in CF, and is more shocked than anything that she goes above and beyond in this way, because she didn't need to and things still would have panned out.

In general, non-CF routes don't confirm choice in exactly the same way as Edelgard does, but they do affirm the choices of other characters. All of the house students (and whoever you recruit non-canonically bar Ashe and Lorenz) return to Garreg Mach in Part II to honour their promise with Byleth, and by that point the war has been going on for five years. The decision to honour that promise is laden with extra meaning after Byleth disappears, and on non-CF routes every non-lord character primarily chooses to stay alongside teacher no. 1 Byleth, as well as their lord of choice, after Ch. 13. Over the course of their Part II each lord subsequently confirms the resolve of their canon allies before at least one significant chapter (Enbarr is a good example on all routes). I don't think any of the other lords are significantly worse or better than Edelgard in this respect, it just happens in different ways.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

And also, when going about choices, keep in mind that Edelgard's always the one that gives Byleth a choice and respects it. It's why in CF, Byleth firmly states that he chose his path, whereas in the other routes, he's never positive or sure, and is more hesitant than anything.

It's a symptom of how unexpected it is that Byleth chooses to protect Edelgard that Edelgard keeps checking Byleth's resolve - even whilst you're on her Part II route, there are lots of things that require resolve above and beyond what Edelgard would expect from an ally (continuing to work with TWSITD in Part II, demonic beasts, Arianrhod). She tells Byleth because she trusts them, but is nonetheless worried about their opinion because she knows how bad it appears. It isn't simply that she cares about their choices (she does), but she also wants to remain in good standing in Byleth's eyes because she acknowledges them - Claude and Seteth at least don't normally feel guilty for the actions they take (and have different personal issues anyway) so they don't ask for verbal approval as much. I'm also not sure why you think Byleth is unresolved in non-CF routes - they're pretty firm about retrieving Rhea, which is one of their main goals on non-CF routes.

 

 

To the issue at hand, the only character I can think of who is forced to fight in the war by a lord is Jeritza, who has no interest in the war whatsoever and only fights because his previous contract with Edelgard entails it. The other characters all fight for their own stakes - some are happier about it than others, but none of them appear to be fighting solely or primarily because of pressure from their lord of choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

It's a symptom of how unexpected it is that Byleth chooses to protect Edelgard that Edelgard keeps checking Byleth's resolve - even whilst you're on her Part II route, there are lots of things that require resolve above and beyond what Edelgard would expect from an ally (continuing to work with TWSITD in Part II, demonic beasts, Arianrhod). She tells Byleth because she trusts them, but is nonetheless worried about their opinion because she knows how bad it appears. It isn't simply that she cares about their choices (she does), but she also wants to remain in good standing in Byleth's eyes because she acknowledges them - Claude and Seteth at least don't normally feel guilty for the actions they take (and have different personal issues anyway) so they don't ask for verbal approval as much. I'm also not sure why you think Byleth is unresolved in non-CF routes - they're pretty firm about retrieving Rhea, which is one of their main goals on non-CF routes.

It actually isn't about guilt or anything to do about the Agarthans. It's actually about how Edelgard realized that Byleth is the same race as Rhea. She expresses as much in the end of CF, where she explains that when she learned that Byleth had been blessed by the "goddess" it meant that there was no way that Byleth would side with her. This is why in the JP version, when Edelgard learns that Byleth was blessed by the goddess, she let out a long drawn out sigh. As if she was taking in the fact that her fate was sealed to fight against Byleth. 

So her giving him the choice to leave her is her thinking that there shouldn't be any way that Byleth, who should be the same as Rhea, would fight alongside her, and there must be a mistake. But Byleth assured her that he would remain with her. 

It never had anything to do with "right or wrong" but simply that Byleth was destined to oppose Edelgard because he's a child of the goddess. But CF is the route where Byleth opposes that fate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...