Byleth End Game Class Build

[leesangstar10]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Is there any good reason to invest in training in Reason in part 2??? Because as far as I'm concerned, the only good excuse to train Byleth in Reason is to recruit the characters who need it (Linhardt, Lorenz, Sylvain).

I mean if you plan on using EO Byleth, what are you going to invest in? Unless you are aiming for faire skills, what are you going to do with the activity points that could've gone to reason.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not sold on this - if you prefer male like me, it takes 15 activity points to get the Flying rank needed for Wyvern (assuming no Greats). Not helping is the fact that Seteth and Manuela are literally the only characters that can tutor in Flying. And honestly, I think axes are not that good in this game.

Myb I meant SM is less investment. Still, I stand by wyvern/falcon being more rewarding.

Also note that the best way to cheese ch 13 is to use wyvern. Watch Mekkah's recent video.

[leesangstar10]

12 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

In other words, Reason really adds next to nothing to an EO build.

sorry but what's the point of telling me this. This does not support ur argument EO > MS. I never said you should train in reason if you do EO Byleth.

12 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

a higher spread of stats in EO

As I said it is only 4.5 more. That doesn't make or break a unit's performance unless there is some benchmark.

16 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

At level 40 EO Byleth has +1 str, +1 mag, +1 Spd, +0.5 def, +1 ch over MS.

I don't think these extra stats make much of a difference. Personally, I think +4 dmg makes more of a difference. Yes Ragnorock with tome faire killing while levin+ not is situational, but I find these +4.5 extra stats mattering to be more situational.

12 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

the Sublime Creator Sword on EO is better than Tomefaire Ragnarok on MS in pretty much every conceivable respect (except requiring Umbral Steel and the potential for hitting from 3 spaces), especially since Byleth's magic is normally lagging by at least 7 points compared to their strength (assuming strength and magic grow exactly the same amount, there's 7 points difference in Byleth's original bases).

Wrong. You are forgetting the fact that most enemies have much less res than def. Idk exact numbers, but most units have at least 7 more def than res.

Either way, it is kind of pointless to talk about which shit is better when both are shit.

Wyvern/Falcon best class for Byleth because 

1. They are just straight up a better class than most end game class. Ex. Pali, SM, assassin

2. Best build for dodge tanking. 30(alert stance+) + 10(class skill) + 30(Spd) + 15/10(lance/axe prowess)

3. This isn't about endgame but only mentioning it because the natural class path, but Byleth being flier is extremely useful for ch 13. Especially for Azura Moon since it is the only route where you aren't given a flier.

Edited May 30, 2020 by leesangstar10

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I mean if you plan on using EO Byleth, what are you going to invest in? Unless you are aiming for faire skills, what are you going to do with the activity points that could've gone to reason.

Aside from swords and authority? Maybe bows, if anything, because the moment I have A+ swords and A authority, I don't see any real need for faculty training any more, and can use those other points for meals, cooking, tournaments, and the occasional tea party.

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I don't think these extra stats make much of a difference. Personally, I think +4 dmg makes more of a difference. Yes Ragnorock with tome faire killing while levin+ not is situational, but I find these +4.5 extra stats mattering to be more situational.

I don't see it when aside from Ragnarok, which has all of three uses and needs A reason, all of Byleth's spells have less might than a Levin Sword+, which also has 3 range; this can't be said of spells until S reason (and I consider training Byleth in reason a VERY questionable investment outside of recruiting the three units that require it in the first place).

18 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

No Swordmaster is not considerable for end game class when Assassin easily outclasses it. +1 move > crit+10 any day. Also I find stealth to be kind of annoying lol cause sometimes I want them to target Byleth but they don't.

Does Mortal Savant have the same movement costs as Assassin (which, by the way, can move into forests and such with only 1 movement)? If not, I'd consider it worse offhand just from that (and I don't think magic access is nearly enough of a game-changer to make up for this).

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

2. Best build for dodge tanking. 30(alert stance+) + 10(class skill) + 30(Spd) + 15/10(lance/axe prowess)

I dunno about you, but I honestly consider Alert Stance questionable in terms of usefulness - is an avoid boost really worth being a non-factor on player phase??? I am not convinced it's worth it. And what are you willing to sacrifice for it?? Because by that point, odds are I'd have 5 more useful skills than an avoid boost that requires me to waste my turn.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

sorry but what's the point of telling me this. This does not support ur argument EO > MS. I never said you should train in reason if you do EO Byleth.

As I said it is only 4.5 more. That doesn't make or break a unit's performance unless there is some benchmark.

I don't think these extra stats make much of a difference. Personally, I think +4 dmg makes more of a difference. Yes Ragnorock with tome faire killing while levin+ not is situational, but I find these +4.5 extra stats mattering to be more situational.

Wrong. You are forgetting the fact that most enemies have much less res than def. Idk exact numbers, but most units have at least 7 more def than res.

sorry my argument might have been unclear. To show that EO is better than MS I have to show that, on average, EO performs better when put in the same situation as MS. Theoretically, both  function as hybrid classes with magic capability. So the argument I am making works as follows

1. EO's best weapon is swords, despite it being a class that can use magic (normally magic provides a useful niche for hybrids). MS requires swords and reason to certify, and is built for units to use both. Any other weapon type is equivalent in both builds. I now must show that EO with swords alone outclasses MS with swords and reason.

2. EO does better with swords than MS with swords because of its higher stat spread on average.

3. MS with reason is not as good as MS with swords. In part, this is because Ragnarok, the only Reason spell better than a Levin Sword+, has three uses on MS and will only get three range with either S-rank or one of two in-game items equipped. Another reason is that Sublime Creator Sword on EO has better damage output than Tomefaire Ragnarok. Even assuming enemy res is 7 less than their defence, or even lower, SCS has a 2-range combat art, 20 uses per battle (so an actual enemy phase), better crit, hit, and lower weight (so higher AS/avo). SCS is one of the best tools Byleth has at their disposal, and it exceeds Ragnarok in all but the most situational of circumstances (say, against Armors/Great Knights, where a Levin Sword+ can be used to the same effect, or if you need the biggest possible chip damage Byleth can deal, where Ragnarok is still competing with SCS). 

I could go further and talk about the sheer number of good swords that Ragnarok is also competing with (Wo Dao, Cursed Ashiya, Blutgang, Thunderbrand, Mercurius, Sword of Zoltan+) that could only even lose to Ragnarok (in niche situations) a maximum of three times per battle anyway (the number of uses Ragnarok has). But you get the point.

4. Put 2 and 3 together, and EO with swords alone is better than MS with swords or reason. Like you say, the difference is only slight, but it's there.

The Tomefaire damage is equivalent to the Swordfaire damage on a Levin Sword+, so Reason capability on Byleth in any class adds very little to them. But like you say, neither is a great class for Byleth in the first place.

9 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Wyvern/Falcon best class for Byleth because 

1. They are just straight up a better class than most end game class. Ex. Pali, SM, assassin

2. Best build for dodge tanking. 30(alert stance+) + 10(class skill) + 30(Spd) + 15/10(lance/axe prowess)

3. This isn't about endgame but only mentioning it because the natural class path, but Byleth being flier is extremely useful for ch 13. Especially for Azura Moon since it is the only route where you aren't given a flier.

I think Falcon Knight is probably the best endgame class for F!Byleth, and it's the easiest way (minus NG+) to get an amazing dodge tank. Obviously dodge tanking doesn't suit everyone, but it's still a great build, for all the reasons that fliers are great. I think it's better than WL because Byleth needs more help growing speed/res than strength/def (and the speed growth is likely to give Byleth slightly more avoid than WL), and FK is slightly easier to build into because of the sword requirement.

But as I've said earlier on this thread, I think the DLC makes War Master better than Wyvern Lord for M!Byleth - I won't state my reasons again but you can look at them earlier on this thread. Ch. 13 is definitely rough, but one route (AM) where you don't get given a flier is balanced out by not having a traditional Ch.13 in CF. Flying is easily the best movement type (and 8 move is better than 6), but I think War Master exceeds WL in combat potential.

 

[Barren]

I always soft reset for greats because of more experience and the sauna also helps out a lot. It's what help me reached swordmaster on my normal playthrough faster and I can imagine that it will help achieve a flier class for Byleth a lot quicker as well. In fact, as female Byleth, I can get Sylvain just by talking to him so that's another advantage I can think of.

 

In the case of Black Eagles, having two units with swift strikes is more rewarding than one. In both Blue Lions and Golden Deer I would have to work to get Heavy Armor at Rank C to get Ferdinand if I want the same thing. Though I am trying him out on BL as a swordmaster with sword avoid +20 (more details on the next thread I plan to start). Plus getting Linhardt's support to rank B (assuming BL or GD) is easy enough as long as you bring him on missions and give him gifts and such. And Lorenz you can always wait until post-time skip (I know you can get him in BE if you do this, not sure about BL though). So yea, aside from recruiting Linhardt and maybe Sylvain (if you're male) would be the only explanation to train Byleth in reason. I don't bother with Byleth's reason magic even if it is serviceable.

 

Byleth having White Magic Avoid +20 gives them a niche but as you guys have said, it's not worth using on Maddening due to how limited it is. Still, it was a fun build to try on Normal Mode.

 

So I think that the overall best and easiest options for Byleth to get into as on Maddening that should be viable if not optimal would be Falcon Knight (assuming female), War Master (assuming Male), Swordmaster or Assassin

 

The Combat Arts I plan on using for Byleth regardless on what I end up picking (other than War Master) would most likely be Windsweep, Curved Shot and maybe Bane of Monsters since they have good qualities to them.  

Edited May 31, 2020 by Barren

[AC6]

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Is there any good reason to invest in training in Reason in part 2??? Because as far as I'm concerned, the only good excuse to train Byleth in Reason is to recruit the characters who need it (Linhardt, Lorenz, Sylvain).

See above, because I think reason training is practically pointless. If I really wanted to use magic, I'd be better off using a Levin Sword+.

I'm not sold on this - if you prefer male like me, it takes 15 activity points to get the Flying rank needed for Wyvern (assuming no Greats). Not helping is the fact that Seteth and Manuela are literally the only characters that can tutor in Flying. And honestly, I think axes are not that good in this game.

Byleth can reach Dark Knight. This is the hardest thing you could do with Male Byleth. You need really good planning to reach Dark Knight as male Byleth by end of chapter 18.

 

Hence reason magic is not pointless post time skip for Byleth.

[Barren]

56 minutes ago, AC6 said:

Byleth can reach Dark Knight. This is the hardest thing you could do with Male Byleth. You need really good planning to reach Dark Knight as male Byleth by end of chapter 18.

 

Hence reason magic is not pointless post time skip for Byleth.

Dark Knight Byleth I suppose would pump out the damage output with stuff like bolgnone and ragnarok. And losing 5% speed isn't the worst trade. Plus 5% strength and 10% magic is kind of nice. 7 base move and canto. You can even work to get movement +1 which I think works beautifully with canto. Fiendish Blow works nicely as well. 

So would it look something like Sword Prowess Level 5, Reason Level 5, Fiendish Blow, Black Magic Range +1, Movement +1?

 

Reason being is that I recall the Rapture Heaven combat art is magic (could be wrong), and having sword prowess at least gives byleth some reason to hold onto their sword when they wish to go physical and having extra range and mobility for the reason spells are usually safe to go for

Edited May 31, 2020 by Barren

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, AC6 said:

Byleth can reach Dark Knight. This is the hardest thing you could do with Male Byleth. You need really good planning to reach Dark Knight as male Byleth by end of chapter 18.

 

Hence reason magic is not pointless post time skip for Byleth.

Why in the name of Anankos would I do this??? Because I already believe Dark Knight is underwhelming for all the effort needed to get into it... and given that Byleth's magic is lagging behind their strength by a LOT, it's even more questionable. So I have no reason whatsoever to believe training Byleth in Reason is anything but pointless.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

Dark Knight isn't a bad class in general, but doubling down on Reason just isn't optimal for Byleth. Obviously if you really want to field magic Byleth then by all means go for it, but Dark Knight doesn't solve any issues Byleth otherwise has with magic.

[SumG]

Quote

I dunno about you, but I honestly consider Alert Stance questionable in terms of usefulness - is an avoid boost really worth being a non-factor on player phase??? I am not convinced it's worth it. And what are you willing to sacrifice for it?? Because by that point, odds are I'd have 5 more useful skills than an avoid boost that requires me to waste my turn.

On the higher difficulty levels, it's extremely helpful.  Let's assume that an enemy will hit your unit for 20 damage per successful attack (which is pretty reasonable moving into part 2 of the game).  You would expect a unit with Alert Stance+ to avoid an extra 30% of attacks, which translates to saving on average 0.3*20= 6 damage per enemy attack.  If a unit is facing multiple enemy attacks in a turn cycle, some of which may be able to get follow-up attacks, that can stack up quickly.  The benefit only scales as the game goes along and enemy attack strength keeps getting higher.  And this is before we get to other evasion boosts that can be equipped.  With the right build for a dodgetank, it isn't uncommon for enemies to have hit percentages in the teens or single digits, even on maddening.

Ideally, a unit with Alert Stance shouldn't be 'wasting' their turn very often.  You take advantage of Alert Stance when you need to bait enemies to advance on the party (place one unit at the very edge of the nearest enemy's attack range), otherwise they are free to attack as they will.

The other side of the coin is that there aren't a ton of abilities that are particularly appealing for melee attackers, certainly not many that would compete with Alert Stance.  Steal has fringe usage, but you probably only need on one person in your entire party.  Assassinate is nice, but not reliable enough to count on.  Weapon Prowess on a secondary weapon type is cute, but I'm not particularly interested in an ability that minor that I'd get usage out of maybe once in a combat.  The Wrath/Vantage combo is high risk and gimmicky, particularly on maddening, while the Battalion based abilities are too unreliable to count on.  The melee abilities worth writing home about are Death Blow, Darting Blow, Weapon Prowess for your primary weapon, X-breakers, X-faires, and Alert Stance.  Maybe Movement +1 or the occasional Rally ability.  Everything else falls off very rapidly.

 

[Shadow Mir]

39 minutes ago, SumG said:

On the higher difficulty levels, it's extremely helpful.  Let's assume that an enemy will hit your unit for 20 damage per successful attack (which is pretty reasonable moving into part 2 of the game).  You would expect a unit with Alert Stance+ to avoid an extra 30% of attacks, which translates to saving on average 0.3*20= 6 damage per enemy attack.  If a unit is facing multiple enemy attacks in a turn cycle, some of which may be able to get follow-up attacks, that can stack up quickly.  The benefit only scales as the game goes along and enemy attack strength keeps getting higher.  And this is before we get to other evasion boosts that can be equipped.  With the right build for a dodgetank, it isn't uncommon for enemies to have hit percentages in the teens or single digits, even on maddening.

Ideally, a unit with Alert Stance shouldn't be 'wasting' their turn very often.  You take advantage of Alert Stance when you need to bait enemies to advance on the party (place one unit at the very edge of the nearest enemy's attack range), otherwise they are free to attack as they will.

The other side of the coin is that there aren't a ton of abilities that are particularly appealing for melee attackers, certainly not many that would compete with Alert Stance.  Steal has fringe usage, but you probably only need on one person in your entire party.  Assassinate is nice, but not reliable enough to count on.  Weapon Prowess on a secondary weapon type is cute, but I'm not particularly interested in an ability that minor that I'd get usage out of maybe once in a combat.  The Wrath/Vantage combo is high risk and gimmicky, particularly on maddening, while the Battalion based abilities are too unreliable to count on.  The melee abilities worth writing home about are Death Blow, Darting Blow, Weapon Prowess for your primary weapon, X-breakers, X-faires, and Alert Stance.  Maybe Movement +1 or the occasional Rally ability.  Everything else falls off very rapidly.

This ignores that Alert Stance+ requires A+ Flying, which is gonna take quite a while to be relevant, especially if you're talking about a unit that doesn't have a boon in Flying (like Byleth!). And honestly, I think that having to wait for it to work is a non-trivial downside. That being said, I'd still find a second prowess ability to be more useful than Alert Stance.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[AC6]

Strength + 2 on physical Byleth is still good (until you get Weapon crit +10). Weight -3 (or -5) is nice for Byleth.

[SumG]

Quote

This ignores that Alert Stance+ requires A+ Flying, which is gonna take quite a while to be relevant, especially if you're talking about a unit that doesn't have a boon in Flying (like Byleth!). And honestly, I think that having to wait for it to work is a non-trivial downside. That being said, I'd still find a second prowess ability to be more useful than Alert Stance.

It's not a huge investment given that both Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord already require significant flying proficiency (B+ and A respectively).  Once you're in those classes it's inevitable you'll to get to Alert Stance+ eventually since you get significant flying experience for every action you take in those classes.  Also, by the time you actually get into those classes you won't need to train for any future class requirements.  Which means you use your training slots on your primary weapon and flying.  The only other thing you're realistically training at that point is Authority to eventually use A rank battalions, but that's a luxury that isn't desperately needed.  B and even C rank battalions are plenty good.  There's effectively no cost in these cases.

The commitment to get a secondary weapon proficiency is likely going to be more than required for flying given that only one melee class has a secondary weapon requirement greater than C rank: War Master.  And getting from C to A+ for Weapon Prowess 5 is a bigger ask than B+ to A+ for Alert Stance+.

I wouldn't suggest a melee unit with a non-flying endgame class in mind pick up Alert Stance to avoid diluting their proficiencies too much, but it's a gimme for any unit in a flying class.  And given how powerful the flying classes are in this game it's common enough to have 3-5 fliers in your party by the endgame, especially now that the Dark Flier class is a thing.

[haarhaarhaar]

In fairness, master class flying units can be certified into from rank C flying (provided they've met their other proficiency targets, which are certainly easier to reach) so it's not a given that any unit is gonna reach A+ flying by endgame.

Alert Stance+ is only worth getting (without NG+) if you want a flier dodge tank. But Maddening all but necessitates some form of tanking, and Dedue is the only unit who could even potentially def-tank a Maddening enemy phase before the late-game (Great Knights with heavy shields, high-Prt battalions and potentially Pavise too can do it in the late game, but def-tanking in general isn't the trustiest of methods). Meaning you'll want at least one really high-avoid build, if not more. And fliers are the easiest units to get high avoid from, so it makes sense to train for Alert Stance+ for at least that flier. Obviously it isn't absolutely necessary, but pretty much no skill is. 

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, SumG said:

It's not a huge investment given that both Falcon Knight and Wyvern Lord already require significant flying proficiency (B+ and A respectively).  Once you're in those classes it's inevitable you'll to get to Alert Stance+ eventually since you get significant flying experience for every action you take in those classes.  Also, by the time you actually get into those classes you won't need to train for any future class requirements.  Which means you use your training slots on your primary weapon and flying.  The only other thing you're realistically training at that point is Authority to eventually use A rank battalions, but that's a luxury that isn't desperately needed.  B and even C rank battalions are plenty good.  There's effectively no cost in these cases.

The commitment to get a secondary weapon proficiency is likely going to be more than required for flying given that only one melee class has a secondary weapon requirement greater than C rank: War Master.  And getting from C to A+ for Weapon Prowess 5 is a bigger ask than B+ to A+ for Alert Stance+.

I wouldn't suggest a melee unit with a non-flying endgame class in mind pick up Alert Stance to avoid diluting their proficiencies too much, but it's a gimme for any unit in a flying class.  And given how powerful the flying classes are in this game it's common enough to have 3-5 fliers in your party by the endgame, especially now that the Dark Flier class is a thing.

Doesn't change the fact that Alert Stance+ is still a lot of investment to the point where outside of the handful of units with a boon in flying, it likely won't be relevant for long enough to matter.

Even though most units that don't have a boon in Flying start at E while most units start with ranks in at least one weapon? Really? Also, news flash - unless your name is Seteth, you won't be in a flying class to start.

I don't think that that's a very practical notion due to the limited number of good flying battalions. This is even more true on Azure Moon, where there are all of two (three if you have DLC).

[Barren]

For me whenever I try to make a team I try to not overdo it on fliers myself because of how flying battalions function. Still, having at least 3 or 4 fliers are still good to have on a team.

I sometimes opt to go for alert stance anyways if their personal ability can be augmented because of it. i.e Dimitri's post time skip ability or Ferdinand's confidence.

So I think that if you're looking for an evasion set like I am, then I think AS+ compliments those ideas really well. Sword Avoid +20 deserves a mention. Brigid Hunters battalion granting a good amount of avoid as well as Aegir Astral Knights too

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Barren

[SumG]

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even though most units that don't have a boon in Flying start at E while most units start with ranks in at least one weapon? Really? Also, news flash - unless your name is Seteth, you won't be in a flying class to start.

The difference between starting at E rank and starting at D rank is 100 weapon experience.  That's trivially little, even if the unit doesn't have a boon.  It's the equivalent of participating in a couple of auxiliary battles.  On maddening, even units without flying boons would have Alert Stance before the time skip.  Alert Stance+ would usually pop up somewhere in the Chapter 14-16 range, depending on the unit's usage.  That's plenty of time to take advantage of those skills.

And I've never found myself particularly pressed when it comes to gaining sufficient weapon/skill proficiency in the game.  Even in maddening runs where I'd be using large numbers of units I'd still end up able to get S+ in a primary weapon, A+ in a couple other categories (flying, riding, authority, etc.), and maybe some scattered C ranks to get into particular classes.  I've certainly never thought the lack of a boon in flying (or riding) should keep a unit out of a mounted class.  Perhaps a bane would be enough to shy me from master tier level classes, but otherwise it isn't an issue.

31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't think that that's a very practical notion due to the limited number of good flying battalions. This is even more true on Azure Moon, where there are all of two (three if you have DLC).

That's a fair point.  Flying battalions are in short supply, and really good ones are uncommon.  But the benefits of the classes are so good in their own right that it makes up for it.  For example, a Wyvern Lord is already getting +4 strength, +4 speed (which battlations don't normally buff), +10 avoid (class ability) on top of whatever benefits they get from their battalion.  And that's before even counting movement range increase, being able to avoid terrain obstacles, and having Canto.  Even if the quality of the flying battalions tends to be lower, the effectiveness of the units tends not to suffer.

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, SumG said:

The difference between starting at E rank and starting at D rank is 100 weapon experience.  That's trivially little, even if the unit doesn't have a boon.  It's the equivalent of participating in a couple of auxiliary battles.  On maddening, even units without flying boons would have Alert Stance before the time skip.  Alert Stance+ would usually pop up somewhere in the Chapter 14-16 range, depending on the unit's usage.  That's plenty of time to take advantage of those skills.

And I've never found myself particularly pressed when it comes to gaining sufficient weapon/skill proficiency in the game.  Even in maddening runs where I'd be using large numbers of units I'd still end up able to get S+ in a primary weapon, A+ in a couple other categories (flying, riding, authority, etc.), and maybe some scattered C ranks to get into particular classes.  I've certainly never thought the lack of a boon in flying (or riding) should keep a unit out of a mounted class.  Perhaps a bane would be enough to shy me from master tier level classes, but otherwise it isn't an issue.

That's a fair point.  Flying battalions are in short supply, and really good ones are uncommon.  But the benefits of the classes are so good in their own right that it makes up for it.  For example, a Wyvern Lord is already getting +4 strength, +4 speed (which battlations don't normally buff), +10 avoid (class ability) on top of whatever benefits they get from their battalion.  And that's before even counting movement range increase, being able to avoid terrain obstacles, and having Canto.  Even if the quality of the flying battalions tends to be lower, the effectiveness of the units tends not to suffer.

I still think you're overestimating how quickly Alert Stance is going to be relevant. I dunno about you, but the units I'm using would likely have their main weapon ranks well above their flying rank forever. Even if they have boons in flying. Unless you prioritize flying rank like crazy, which does not help me in the slightest, and in fact might hurt me depending on what my plans are.

I don't know - in general I find getting to S+ to be an impractical notion outside of NG+ unless you overspecialize, which is a bad thing, last I checked. Also, honestly, I don't really see the appeal of cavalry classes that aren't Paladin or Bow Knight.

I don't know about that - I'd rather have, say, an Assassin with Brigid Hunters than be overloaded on fliers such that some have to use lesser battalions.

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I still think you're overestimating how quickly Alert Stance is going to be relevant. I dunno about you, but the units I'm using would likely have their main weapon ranks well above their flying rank forever. Even if they have boons in flying. Unless you prioritize flying rank like crazy, which does not help me in the slightest, and in fact might hurt me depending on what my plans are.

I don't know - in general I find getting to S+ to be an impractical notion outside of NG+ unless you overspecialize, which is a bad thing, last I checked. Also, honestly, I don't really see the appeal of cavalry classes that aren't Paladin or Bow Knight.

Yeah I've never achieved S+ without abusing aux battles, although Byleth on non-CF routes could definitely manage S+ I think. I suppose that may just be my lack of skill as a player. But if you can do it, having two Faire skills for one weapon vastly outclasses wielding a secondary weapon, unless that secondary is bows and you are a flier (and even then, the unit isn't obviously better, it'll depend on context). 

Alert Stance+ is definitely possible on a NG playthrough, although I'd imagine it would require a pretty strict schedule (Pegasus-Wyvern-Master Class for women, and a good amount of extra flying teaching for men) and even then I can't see it becoming available before Ch. 18 (assuming that you aren't really leaning on that flier beforehand). So yeah, limited utility, but on an NG playthrough all of your fliers will get normal Alert Stance, and it's only a minimum of one, particularly dodgy, flier who wants/needs Alert Stance+. It's definitely useful enough to warrant getting, and achievable enough to plan for. 

21 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

This is even more true on Azure Moon, where there are all of two (three if you have DLC).

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd rather have, say, an Assassin with Brigid Hunters than be overloaded on fliers such that some have to use lesser battalions.

Paralogues that are automatically available (Ingrid and Flayn) net you the two that I assume you're referring to, then there's the default Seiros/Kingdom flier battalions and then the DLC (which also gives two useful flying battalions from Constance and Anna) . The D-rank flier battalions are obviously not as good as the average B-rank battalion, let alone the better flying battalions, but they aren't so bad as to put you off running fliers entirely - and a flier with Alert Stance+ and Seiros Pegasus still makes dodge-tanking more reliable than an Assassin with Brigid Hunters. 

 

[SumG]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah I've never achieved S+ without abusing aux battles, although Byleth on non-CF routes could definitely manage S+ I think. I suppose that may just be my lack of skill as a player. But if you can do it, having two Faire skills for one weapon vastly outclasses wielding a secondary weapon, unless that secondary is bows and you are a flier (and even then, the unit isn't obviously better, it'll depend on context). 

On maddening I've never had too much issue with getting to S+ with anyone in my most regularly used units, even on NG.  But I will cede that when I play I will usually focus on 15 or so units to primarily use.  This allows me focus a bit more on training sessions and use in auxiliary battles.  But I've never resorted to using a rusted/broken weapon to grind out weapon xp.  If you're using more units, it may be more difficult.  Additionally, I generally find it to be easier to achieve S+ ranks on maddening despite the lower weapon xp gains just due to the presence of more and harder enemies.

[haarhaarhaar]

19 minutes ago, SumG said:

On maddening I've never had too much issue with getting to S+ with anyone in my most regularly used units, even on NG.  But I will cede that when I play I will usually focus on 15 or so units to primarily use.  This allows me focus a bit more on training sessions and use in auxiliary battles.  But I've never resorted to using a rusted/broken weapon to grind out weapon xp.  If you're using more units, it may be more difficult.  Additionally, I generally find it to be easier to achieve S+ ranks on maddening despite the lower weapon xp gains just due to the presence of more and harder enemies.

The bolded part probably explains it - I tend to recruit as much as possible even on Maddening, and I'll try to raise paralogue units up until their paralogue even if they won't be part of my endgame team, which means my Part I is more diluted for everyone. I try not to lean on individual characters until I finish up with paralogues for good, and if I'm playing with a NG+ chain then I try and give every recruited character at least one mastery in an advanced class. So yeah, I've never seriously attempted to go for S+ before, or streamlined my army from an early stage so that it's easier to get.

Agreed also that Maddening is the easiest difficulty to raise weapon ranks on, by far.

[SumG]

47 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

The bolded part probably explains it - I tend to recruit as much as possible even on Maddening, and I'll try to raise paralogue units up until their paralogue even if they won't be part of my endgame team, which means my Part I is more diluted for everyone. I try not to lean on individual characters until I finish up with paralogues for good, and if I'm playing with a NG+ chain then I try and give every recruited character at least one mastery in an advanced class. So yeah, I've never seriously attempted to go for S+ before, or streamlined my army from an early stage so that it's easier to get.

I think there's a middle ground between your level of usage and only recruiting the units you intend to use.  When I play, I generally recruit everyone I can with the intention of eventually clearing the paralogues (the paralogues are the most fun missions anyway and have great rewards).  I'll usually have a good idea of the units I want to use over the course of the game (generally units that are by consensus good and perhaps one or two oddball builds I want to try out).  The main units will get my attention when in comes to teaching sessions and usage in main story missions and paralogues.  Other units really only come in during auxiliary missions or as adjutants.  (Bonus note: adjutants still get bonus xp and weapon/class xp from using the experience gem and the knowledge gem, so adjutants typically equip those accessories in my games.)

I've found that going this way lets you gain enough levels with the supporting cast in order to have them be high enough level to participate in their paralogues, even if they won't be nearly as useful as the main party.  But once their paralogue is done, I usually stop using the unit.  Once I have Thyrsus, Lorenz isn't getting back in the party.  Once I've completed Ignatz and Raphael's paralogue, I likely won't use them again.  Playing a non-Blue Lions path?  I'll still recruit Annette, but she won't be getting in the party.

Considering that most of the second half of the game expects you on a monthly basis to go Explore->Fight->Explore-Fight->Mission, you're probably going to want to have 14 usuable non-Byleth students to be able to get the most out of your training sessions before refreshing motivation (7 students per weekly training session).  Additionally, it helps to know when you can switch to focusing just on your primary weapon for training goals to get the 1.5x bonus.  There really isn't any point to training Flying past A+ (Alert Stance+), Riding past A+ (Movement+1), White Magic past A (when a unit's last spell would be learned, or Authority past A (when you can equip A-tier battalions).  And with Authority, you even decide to abandon it after B-rank without too much loss, particularly if the unit has a bane.

Once a unit has learned all these relevant abilities for their build, and has the necessary proficiencies for the classes they want, they should just focus on reaching S+ proficiency in their primary weapon instead of unnecessarily dumping weapon XP into them.  By doing this, it's pretty common for me to get 7-10 units up to S+ proficiency in a given run on maddening, and that's before even using DLC bonuses like the sauna.

[haarhaarhaar]

Your entire comment is full of good advice - anything I don't already do I will be learning from in my next serious playthrough.

The big difference between our play styles is that I don't decide who makes my endgame team until quite late (normally midway through part 2, after units start getting master classes). It means that I'm planning, and attempting to carry out, specific builds for every character I recruit (which now that I'm experienced in the game means the majority of them), and giving them lots of time to 'prove themselves' through performance (I tend not to decide my endgame build based on the characters I like the most). Obviously on NG Maddening that just makes my life harder (not by a ton, though it obviously is less efficient), but I acknowledge that my preferred way of playing the game is not the most optimal. 

[LoneRecon400]

Here's some actual numbers behind Alert Stance + in case someone wants to know how long it take to pick up.

Also for the record: Aux battles really skew how much Wexp a unit gets. Like it takes 1080 Wexp to go from S -> S+. A unit fighting just 20 battles in a Master Class even without a boon will still gain a 100 Wexp. With a boon and the knowledges gem, that's 180 Wexp. And that doesn't even include tutoring or weekly training.

Speaking from personal experience, I've only gotten 2-3 units to S Rank, let alone S+. But that's mainly because I strictly ban any optional battles barring Paralogues and Merchant Battles. If one were to take full advantage of Aux battles, they can hit S+ fairly easily on a handful of units.

Edited June 3, 2020 by LoneRecon400

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Paralogues that are automatically available (Ingrid and Flayn) net you the two that I assume you're referring to, then there's the default Seiros/Kingdom flier battalions and then the DLC (which also gives two useful flying battalions from Constance and Anna) . The D-rank flier battalions are obviously not as good as the average B-rank battalion, let alone the better flying battalions, but they aren't so bad as to put you off running fliers entirely - and a flier with Alert Stance+ and Seiros Pegasus still makes dodge-tanking more reliable than an Assassin with Brigid Hunters. 

I had forgotten about the other one; I knew Constance had one. Also, I still think the opportunity cost that Alert Stance+ carries is not so trivial as to make it a guaranteed slot in, especially considering that far more often than not, waiting is the least productive thing I can do. In addition, I think too much of a good thing (like fliers) can be bad.

6 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Also for the record: Aux battles really skew how much a Wexp a unit gets. Like it takes 1080 Wexp to go from S -> S+. A unit fighting just 20 battles in a Master Class even without a boon will still gain a 100 Wexp. With a boon and the knowledges gem, that's 180 Wexp. And that doesn't even include tutoring or weekly training.

Speaking from personal experience, I've only gotten 2-3 units to S Rank, let alone S+. But that's mainly because I strictly ban any optional battles barring Paralogues and Merchant Battles. If one were to take full advantage of Aux battles, they can hit S+ fairly easily on a handful of units.

Speaking of which, I tend to ignore auxiliary battles myself.