How should they make OCs available to be summoned?

[GrandeRampel]

So with the new heroes banner revealed, this is once again a controversy. I'm kidding, when are Heroes OCs NOT controversial?

So I decided to make a poll to get the feel of how the Serenes Forest community feels about this topic. Original Characters have been a part of this game from the beginning with Heroes!Anna, Alfonse and Sharena being among the first characters available. They were given for free.

Since Book 2 things changes a little for OCs. One is given for free each book, but the others are summonable in some way. OCs given for free are also summonable.

This is a reality that is not going to change, we have to accept it. That said, just because we accept that they are gonna be summonable, it doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how to implement them exactly.

In this poll I have listed the three ways Intelligent Systems has made OCs available to the players (in their regular forms. Alts like Spring!Bruno are a different matter entirely and are not considered here).

1. The Helbindi way. Being summonable in a regular heroes banner. This means they are in the regular pool, but it also means one of the 14 or so New Heroes Banners a year will be used for Heroes characters. With no demotes no less.

2. The Mirabilis way. Being summonable in a regular heroes banner like the Awakening one. However they won't be added to the regular pool but rather the Mythic/Legendary one. We don't know if such banners will have demotes or not. Peony's banner didn't have any demotes, but Mirabilis banner has Mustafa. And also we can't say it's a pattern yet so take it with a grain of salt, but as of right now everytime such a banner happens another character from that game is given to us as 3*/4* or in some other way.

It happened with Tanya and 

Spoiler

Emmeryn

3. The Eir way. Being summonable in a Hero Fest/other special banner. We have only one example to base this on but it appears that a character added in this way joins the Legendary/Mythic pool.

Then I added a 4th option. The option of OCs joining neither pool. They are available on their debut banner, and maybe on some other special banner later, but they are otherwise very rare. Like Duo!Ephraim. If you feel like OCs should be rare like Duo!Ephraim this is the right option for you.

Then I added another section for your own ideas. You can come up with another way to make the OCs summonable and we will discuss it down here.

Without further ado, I can't wait to hear your opinions.

[eclipse]

Freely recruited via the story, otherwise unsummonable/unable to be foddered/feathered.  Like, we can't summon OG Alfonse/Sharena/Anna, so I don't see why other story characters should be different.

[Baldrick]

Just like the Askr trio.

[Ice Dragon]

It doesn't matter to me as long as they become summonable. I'm looking at you, Bruno and Veronica.

Honestly, I'd like all banners to be 2-character banners like Ylgr and Surtr's banner for the higher focus summon rate, but there's no way they'd do that since it would kill their bottom line.

 

Either way, this banner is still coming with 5 Awakening characters, except it's 3 on the banner and 2 in some other way instead of 4 on the banner and 1 in some other way.

[Humanoid]

I have no problem with the way they'll do it on tomorrow's banner to be honest, and said as much in the trailer thread. I understand and acknowledge that some people are unhappy that it might result in lesser representation of other New Heroes, but it looks like the addition of Spoiler will cancel that out. I would even go so far as to say that the net outcome is positive: I'm happier seeing two 5-star exclusives and two "demotes" than I am with the typical 3-and-1 arrangements. If the spark mechanic is added to other banners, then sure, add them there too, it'll be just as good, but until then, this works out best for someone like me.

Unpopular opinion perhaps, but with a few exceptions I really don't care about game representation in FEH, beyond what already exists. There are plenty of characters, including all the key ones, from all Fire Emblem games already, and if zero new ones are added between now and the day the servers shut down for good, I won't be upset about it. Don't get me wrong: there are still a number of characters I'd like to see added, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it if they never make it in.

I am primarily interested in units that would actually improve my barracks, and to do so they need to be powerful (be better than what I already have), be interesting (be a new or rare class), or at least be accessible (be in the 3-4* pool). The identity of the actual characters is simply a bonus - icing on the cake if it's a likeable character but they don't make or break the unit. Unfortunately new characters on New Heroes banners fulfil the criteria maybe half the time if I'm being optimistic, which is why I've traditionally preferred Special Heroes banners. The new spark system however has flipped that around such that even if only one of the four additions in a New Heroes banner is desirable, I can guarantee myself that unit, and that change makes Special Hero banners exceedingly difficult to justify for me now, with their very live possibility of giving me either a pitybreaker, or indeed nothing at all.

[Sunwoo]

33 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Freely recruited via the story, otherwise unsummonable/unable to be foddered/feathered.  Like, we can't summon OG Alfonse/Sharena/Anna, so I don't see why other story characters should be different.

I'm going with this, but with the added caveat of having less OCs in general. The majority of them are barely relevant to the book they originate from, there's really no reason why we need so many of them, and few of them even play a role in the later books. There's no reason why book 4 needs so many fairies or why all three of Helbindi, Laegjarn, and Laevatein have to exist or why Fjorm needs so many siblings. Book 3 did it the best, having only Eir (the freebie), Hel (the big bad) and Lif and Thrasir (the two other relevant enemies).

[SuperNova125]

I get people why don't like the new way of implementing OCs but I actually like it. The idea of making them mythics is fine, however I really hate the fact that they take up spots in mothly banners that other mythic candidates need way more. I also don't like putting them in a banner afterwards like the Muspel generals as it means that by the time we are done with the book we will be getting OCs in a benner or two afterwards and they won't be so relevant anymore. Having them as mythics that make their debut in a regular banner seems to me like the best choice. IS can release them whenever they are actually relevant and as Emmeryn showcased it doesn't stop them from releasing 5 new heroes per banner. However, some of them should be free. For example, Mirabilis is shown fighting in our side during the cinematic and she will be present during the story, so why isn't she free like Peony? Same thing applies to Fjorm's siblings to a lesser extent. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by SuperNova125

[GrandeRampel]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Freely recruited via the story, otherwise unsummonable/unable to be foddered/feathered.  Like, we can't summon OG Alfonse/Sharena/Anna, so I don't see why other story characters should be different.

 

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Just like the Askr trio.

 

50 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I'm going with this, but with the added caveat of having less OCs in general. The majority of them are barely relevant to the book they originate from, there's really no reason why we need so many of them, and few of them even play a role in the later books. There's no reason why book 4 needs so many fairies or why all three of Helbindi, Laegjarn, and Laevatein have to exist or why Fjorm needs so many siblings. Book 3 did it the best, having only Eir (the freebie), Hel (the big bad) and Lif and Thrasir (the two other relevant enemies).

I must say I didn't expect the option of being treated like Alfonse, Sharena and Anna to be so popular.

I only heard complaints and complaints about how the trio has been screwed over because they can't be merged (and being free for everyone is probably the reason they have bad kits) and that makes them useless.

They sit at the very bottom of the tier list IIRC. And yet here you are, arguing that they are the way to go for OCs.

 

At this point I must ask you to elaborate a bit more because I am genuinely curious. Do you actually use Alfonse, Sharena and Anna and don't care what the tier list says?

Or you don't care about the gameplay side, you are just collectors (like me) and like to have them all and their pretty art be available for free without needing to worry about merging and stuff?

Or you don't like OCs but don't feel like screwing over people who want to use them by picking option 6? 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by GrandeRampel

[Othin]

Now that we know that Emmeryn is going to be available as a fifth Awakening unit, I'm happy with this approach since we're not losing any slots for New Heroes. Or for other Mythic Heroes, for that matter.

Personally, my ideal option would be to have them featured on a Hero Fest like Eir's but without taking the place of a regular banner, but there's no precedent for that and I don't care much either way since both options give them a free slot.

[Mercakete]

I think they should be added in any way IS feels like adding them. Not only do they (and the game) belong to IS, but this is actually their home game (as opposed to all the other OC's (Marth, Lyn, etc., which are OC's because they're IS' original characters.)) I don't see the characters native to Heroes as inferior at all. Shouldn't they be featured in their own home game?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Mercakete

[Othin]

8 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I think they should be added in any way IS feels like adding them. Not only do they (and the game) belong to IS, but this is actually their home game (as opposed to all the other OC's (Marth, Lyn, etc., which are OC's because they're IS' original characters.)) I don't see the characters native to Heroes as inferior at all. Shouldn't they be featured in their own home game?

"IS should just do what they feel like" is a ridiculous stance. We're the customers, our preferences matter. IS should and does account for that, since they're trying to get people to spend money on this game.

"What features do you want your car to have?" "Oh, the manufacturer can put whatever they feel like in it, they're the one who's building it."

Edited June 4, 2020 by Othin

[Mercakete]

6 minutes ago, Othin said:

"IS should just do what they feel like" is a ridiculous stance. We're the customers, our preferences matter. IS should and does account for that, since they're trying to get people to spend money on this game.

"What features do you want your car to have?" "Oh, the manufacturer can put whatever they feel like in it, they're the one who's building it."

I don't see why my stance is any more ridiculous than anyone else's. I'm entitled to my opinion, just like anyone else. If you want something to happen, make it happen yourself, including making your own world, writing your own story, and drawing your own characters. This is a creative work, not a car. What artists express is up to them. As for IS being gracious enough to ask the community what they would like, that's also up to them to decide. The viewer/player/reader is not entitled to anything except for their opinions, and the choice on whether they want to partake in what the artist is making or not. If they want to, they have to pay. If they don't, they don't. But unless they're on staff, they have no say on what should or should not be. Ultimately, that's only up the work's creator(s).

[GrandeRampel]

14 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I think they should be added in any way IS feels like adding them. Not only do they (and the game) belong to IS, but this is actually their home game (as opposed to all the other OC's (Marth, Lyn, etc., which are OC's because they're IS' original characters.)) I don't see the characters native to Heroes as inferior at all. Shouldn't they be featured in their own home game?

Obviously IS is free to do what they want with their game, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't listen to their customers. In fact I suspect they reason they tried so many different ways of releasing OCs is exactly because they were listening to our complaints.

1 minute ago, Mercakete said:

I don't see why my stance is any more ridiculous than anyone else's. I'm entitled to my opinion, just like anyone else. If you want something to happen, make it happen yourself, including making your own world, writing your own story, and drawing your own characters. This is a creative work, not a car. What artists express is up to them. As for IS being gracious enough to ask the community what they would like, that's also up to them to decide. The viewer/player/reader is not entitled to anything except for their opinions, and the choice on whether they want to partake in what the artist is making or not. If they want to, they have to pay. If they don't, they don't. But unless they're on staff, they have no say on what should or should not be. Ultimately, that's only up the work's creator(s).

The player is not entitled to anything except for how they spend their money/if they keep playing the game at all. IS is not obligated to listen to us, nobody is forcing them.

But since they are smart they obviously listen at least a little to what we say. If too many people stop playing the game because they didn't listen they may have mantained their creative freedom, but they also killed their own game.

[Mercakete]

29 minutes ago, GrandeRampel said:

Obviously IS is free to do what they want with their game, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't listen to their customers. In fact I suspect they reason they tried so many different ways of releasing OCs is exactly because they were listening to our complaints.

The player is not entitled to anything except for how they spend their money/if they keep playing the game at all. IS is not obligated to listen to us, nobody is forcing them.

But since they are smart they obviously listen at least a little to what we say. If too many people stop playing the game because they didn't listen they may have mantained their creative freedom, but they also killed their own game.

I'm not opposed to this. These are just the facts, and I agree with them. I'm opposed to being told that my opinion is ridiculous prior to it being mocked, which I only really posted since I voted "other." I figure this is supposed to be a safe place to express what you think, and this is what I think. So, I explained it in further detail to the user who did this since I felt like I had to explain my perspective more clearly.

Edit: Grammar.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Mercakete

[Othin]

8 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I don't see why my stance is any more ridiculous than anyone else's. I'm entitled to my opinion, just like anyone else. If you want something to happen, make it happen yourself, including making your own world, writing your own story, and drawing your own characters. This is a creative work, not a car. What artists express is up to them. As for IS being gracious enough to ask the community what they would like, that's also up to them to decide. The viewer/player/reader is not entitled to anything except for their opinions, and the choice on whether they want to partake in what the artist is making or not. If they want to, they have to pay. If they don't, they don't. But unless they're on staff, they have no say on what should or should not be. Ultimately, that's only up the work's creator(s).

Heroes is a hamster wheel built to squeeze money out of people. Genuine creative expression is not one of the things IS is prioritizing here.

IS looking at what the community wants isn't them being gracious, it's a good business practice to maximize their bottom line. You're operating from a very idealized and completely wrong idea of how companies like this work, that's what makes your stance so much more absurd than anything else here.

[GrandeRampel]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

Heroes is a hamster wheel built to squeeze money out of people. Genuine creative expression is not one of the things IS is prioritizing here.

Okay, I think the conversation should really end here. Everyone has their own opinion but I think saying FEH is just an husk of a cynical cashgrab time-wasting machine is a bit extreme and untrue. There is some creative work and passion in the game, even if there is also a lot of lazyness (some of the modes we got since Aether Raids have been pretty lazy) and generalizing is not good.

Especially since both you and Mercakete have completely opposite and strong opinions about this I suggest you both drop this or continue privately instead of derailing the topic.

[Mercakete]

10 minutes ago, Othin said:

Heroes is a hamster wheel built to squeeze money out of people. Genuine creative expression is not one of the things IS is prioritizing here.

IS looking at what the community wants isn't them being gracious, it's a good business practice to maximize their bottom line. You're operating from a very idealized and completely wrong idea of how companies like this work, that's what makes your stance so much more absurd than anything else here.

I speak as a professional artist myself. Even if the logistics side of the company is purely motivated by money, the artistic side cares very deeply for their creations, I'm sure. We make our dreams reality and share them with the world...and then the world thinks they have the right to dictate to us what to do with what we made. I just think that as the consumer, we need to have a less entitled and more appreciative mindset, addressing the heart behind the work.

That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You're even entitled to your opinion about my opinion. You may think it is objectively wrong, and you're allowed to think that. However, I don't like walking into a forum that asks me what I think, and being jumped on as soon as I do. Please try to coexist peacefully with people who think differently from you.

 

Edit: @GrandeRampel

Sorry; I just saw your post.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Mercakete

[Baldrick]

 

15 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Shouldn't they be featured in their own home game?

The difference between Heroes and the mainline games is that the former is about collecting characters from other games.

16 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

This is a creative work, not a car. 

IS aren't trying to express themselves, they're trying to make money. What the fanbase wants (and so will spend money on) is absolutely relevant.

[Mercakete]

4 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

 

The difference between Heroes and the mainline games is that the former is about collecting characters from other games.

IS aren't trying to express themselves, they're trying to make money. What the fanbase wants (and so will spend money on) is absolutely relevant.

I have been asked to drop the topic and so I did.

[Othin]

Fair enough.

I want to clarify that I do enjoy Heroes, and I think there's plenty of meaningful creative aspects to it, I just don't like the idea of framing every logistical decision about it as a creative expression that's above any sort of critique. With that, I'll drop the topic as well.

[Yexin]

my desire to summon Heroes OCs is under Absolute Zero, so as far as i'm concerned they should be mere NPCs and not be made summonable; i like Loki, but she's the exception, not the rule

more realistically, i wish IntSys's way to handle OCs was to feature them in dedicated banners, which would be added to the regular banner schedule, so basically making more banners every year: since OCs are most likely already prepared (their artworks at least) by the end of the book prior to their debut, and are recycled for the whole duration of their book (and usually more), it would make sense to simply make more banners , it would probably take less resources than regular banners and no one would complain about "stolen spots" in new heroes banners nor anything like that

[Fabulously Olivier]

The first option. At the end of the story. In their own banner like Generals of Muspell. In addition to and not instead of the regular New Heroes for that month. This is not rocket science.

 

Also, half of the last option. They should not be in CYL. Not because they shouldn't be playable, but because people shouldn't have to feel the need to vote for them to get them at all. See choice 1. CYL is the place for regular Fire Emblem heroes in a game called Fire Emblem Heroes to get alt costumes. It isn't the place for people who do not play Fire Emblem to demand characters who are not from Fire Emblem.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, GrandeRampel said:

I only heard complaints and complaints about how the trio has been screwed over because they can't be merged (and being free for everyone is probably the reason they have bad kits) and that makes them useless.

Theoretically, they can be merged, if you could obtain combat manuals for them.

 

Quote

At this point I must ask you to elaborate a bit more because I am genuinely curious. 

My two reasons are making room for mainline characters on banners, and also internal story logic. Fjorm etc. are native to the world of Heroes, but they can be sent home as though they was summoned.

 

[GrandeRampel]

Just now, Baldrick said:

Theoretically, they can be merged, if you could obtain combat manuals for them.

 

Guys I think this is low-key the best observation made in the whole topic. IS should absolutely release manuals of the Askr Trio. It would finally solve that whole problem. Make them hard to obtain, make them cost more I don't care but do it.

[Michelaar]

I voted other simply because I do no care at all. I am fine with them being in CYL, I was fine with them getting their own banner, I am fine with them being Mythic heroes, I am fine with them being in New Heroes foci along with other new heroes. I also believe that Alfonse, Sharena and Anna should be added to a grail shop or otherwise be summonable. I would enjoy being able to merge them up and I am sad that it is impossible.