What are your thoughts on Byleth?

[Rose482]

(I don't believe a thread like this was made here on this topic, and if I somehow missed it, I apologize....don't come at me, mods.)

So now that FE16 has been out for a pretty decent amount of time, I thought it was the perfect time to make this. And from the tittle, it should be clear what this thread is about.

What were your thoughts on Byleth? Did you like him and the role he played in the story? Did he exceed your expectations? Or did you find him to be another boring silent avatar kind of character? Would you like a future FE game to have another silent avatar like him? Or do you not want to ever see his face again? 

 

[Ottservia]

Byleth's alright. I like the little kuudere-esque they undergo throughout part 1 where the learn to better express their emotions and try to pass on that lesson to each of the three lords in their respective routes. It creates an interesting relationship between them and the other three lords. I quite like it. My main issue with Byleth isn't Byleth themselves but rather the story that surrounds them. This applies mostly to the other lords as well but for being such a major character they feel so... I wouldn't say unnecessary but they feel very disconnected from the story at large. I don't quite know how to explain it but it really feels the events of this plot don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I really don't know how to explain it honestly.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Ottservia

[Yexin]

oh, i know exactly what i think about Byleth

Positive aspects:
1) between Byleth, Robin and Corrin, the former is probably the avatar who made me feel like i was the protagonist the most (Mark is still n.1)
2) i liked how Byleth allowed the game to have proper cutscenes like PoR and RD did

Negative aspects:
--) literally anything else i can think about

in my opinion avatars simply don't work in Fire Emblem, IntSys should just ditch them and give us an actual main character with proper personality, struggles, backstory, emotions, struggles, goals, achievements, sexual instincts and most importantly STRUGGLES: Byleth has none of them, his/her father does what we all know, then the story forgets about it for the whole game, only to remind you about that when you have to choose your waifu/husbando; he/she becomes the oh-so beloved ruler of the whole damn continent where it's PAINFULLY CLEAR that its population is not united; he/she asks his/her waifu/husbando to get married with this face  ' - ', and my list could go on and on

long story short: i want an actual main character for the next non-remake FE title

Edited June 6, 2020 by Yexin

[eclipse]

The beginning is stupidly contrived, but this is the fault of the writing.  If Byleth's background gave him/her teaching experience, I think I'd be happier with his/her implementation.  I like the concept of teaching the students, even if the academy phase gets old really fast.

In other words, decent idea, bad execution.

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

I felt absolutely no connection to Byleth and the lack of personality on top of not actually having genuine dialogue choices really made me not like having Byleth around. Part of it is just that I'm sick of avatar characters.

From here on out I'd really prefer sticking to just having our main characters please. No avatar.

[Etrurian emperor]

I can't say I dislike Byleth too much but I don't connect to silent protagonists and Byleth is no different. As a silent protagonist he works decently enough but I just don't like the archetype. I guess he gets some points for the silence actually been seen as incredibly weird.

[Hawkwing]

There was a thread that discussed Byleth before, but that was nearly half a year ago.

Anyway, I'd say that I was initially neutral on Byleth, with my opinion worsening as time went on. While I found the dialogue options to be limited, I did like how they got me to think about what the other character would like to hear in order to gain support points, causing me to pay more attention to each of their quirks and personalities. I didn't find Byleths supports to be that jarring thanks to being a quiet guy in real life, and a commendable first attempt for having multiple choice support conversations, even if as a player I wish I could pipe in more often and direct the conversation in different directions than just saying to different forms of "yes".

However, Byleths lack of customization and voice was always a sore spot that only grew as I got further and further into the game. I understand why it was limited, but staring at a character that was supposed to be "me" when I had no choice whatsoever in what they looked like in a game that took 60 hours to hit the halfway mark increasingly annoyed me, especially given Three Houses overall slow pace. Also, I know that complaining about female Byleths outfit is a dead horse at this point, but I still don't like it, and having to buy some DLC to give her something more modest to wear just comes off as scummy. It doesn't help that previous avatars had androgynous outfits, and male Byleths cloak could work with both genders.

I also don't think that Three Houses took as much advantage of the presence of an avatar as they could have. Way too often do they just observe events instead of actually participating in anything, yet the game still treats Byleth as if they actually did have a say in how events unfolded or that if it weren't for them, their side would have lost the war or certain characters problems wouldn't be solved. It's not quite as egregious as it was in Fates, but the avatar worship is still far more prevalent than it should be, and unlike Robin it doesn't always seem deserved. Several games that utilized avatars well designed a story that benefited from the player experiencing the story and setting as a participant rather than simply watching a character do so, yet I get the sense that with some tweaking and rewriting, you could remove Byleth from the story and the majority of it would function just fine.

At this point, I either want IS to drop avatars entirely and focus on delivering a story that doesn't have to worry about "appeasing" the player insert, or to design a  Fire Emblem game that actually takes advantage of an avatar to provide a unique perspective that would be enhanced by the "player" experiencing it firsthand.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Hawkwing
Adjusted some sections. I was rushed initially.

[Deenward]

I feel like Byleth's emotionless demeanor throughout Part 1 really bites them in the foot as a protagonist. Characters in supports and in the story have to tell us over and over that Byleth is this charismatic figure who can rally people to a greater cause, but they barely say three sentences during most cut scenes and these consist of either Captain Obvious questions or banal words of encouragement anyone could say. Byleth's lack of emotions doesn't contribute to the narrative in a very meaningful way, especially in part 2, and I can't buy into the character arc of them coming more into their role as a Professor when characters constantly have to summarize said arc. I don't understand why IntSys and Koei Tecmo didn't pull an Atlus here and give Byleth's dialogue choices flavor and personality based on the player's preference. That would make selecting their dialogue in cut scenes a lot more fun. Plus, it doesn't have to change plot points like the secret of Byleth's origins and the whole Sothis thing, either. Shouldn't Sothis inhabiting them be the catalyst for Byleth having a wider emotional range? I believe that was a big missed opportunity. 

Overall, I don't find Byleth as infuriating as Corrin or Kris, but their awkward insertion into pivotal emotional moments takes me out of more scenes then it does immerse me in them. I'm with Hawkwing in that Byleth being stuck in to one of two static designs makes it hard to feel like it is "your" story as the US marketing emphasized over and over. 

I was relieved to hear the 3H director say in an interview that they're totally up for doing another traditional FE protagonist again, because I believe an avatar transparently meant for the player to project themselves on to erodes the foundation of the game's story. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Deenward

[Punished Dayni]

As an avatar:

As potential for a character:

 

For me, I seem to feel that IS can't really do the open-ended, you define the character for you self type of avatar and from what we've seen I think that's an easy assessment. So until they are more confident they could actually pull it off I'd prefer if they didn't at all. 

See, I think a Byleth whose backstory was more defined, who actually got to speak up in a manner that didn't just feel like empty choices which you don't even hear vocalised (why?), who actually had back and forths with other characters, that Byleth would have been more liked, would have been interesting to analyse and dissect and would have had less salt when getting into Smash. In other words, write 'em as a full character. They can still be the Byleth we see in the beginning if they do more to develop them and let them be seen to do more.

So I still prefer Robin as an avatar (Awakening is better structured for it), but hey, Byleth winning the silver isn't just because Kris and Corrin (I know, I don't count Mark as he's handled differently)

Also, the S Ranks have weirded me out so far. The best one is literally a psychopath.

[Etrurian emperor]

6 minutes ago, Deenward said:

most cut scenes and these consist of either Captain Obvious questions or banal words of encouragement anyone could say

I think that's probably the aspect that works the least about Byleth. Its just very silly that Byleth is the professor yet his student must work to teach him all about even the most basic facts of Fodlan such as the knights of Seiros. I understand why the game put in options to explain such things to newcomers but Byleth being the one to explain such things to the students and player alike would be more fitting for a professor. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Hanes]

Quite simply, I don't like him. I don't think I'm the target audience but I can't insert myself into Byleth or any avatar because they are just not like me. Robin is a saint beloved by everyone which I am not and Byleth is almost fully silent which by itself is not self-insertable enough.

He is just uninteresting and doesn't add anything I think the game would have been better off without Byleth and if you could choose a house and a professor to direct them and that's it, but that also opens another can of worms I'm not interested in do don't @ me

[eclipse]

13 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

He is just uninteresting and doesn't add anything I think the game would have been better off without Byleth and if you could choose a house and a professor to direct them and that's it, but that also opens another can of worms I'm not interested in do don't @ me

This would've been pretty cool IMO.  Maybe have Jeritza as the third proper professor!

[null]

I think Byleth is painfully caught between trying to be a blank slate for the player to vicariously experience 3H through and an actual developed character, ultimately being a bad example of both. As an avatar, his dialogue choices are nice, but more variety is necessary to make him feel as though each player has a response that reflects how they themselves would react to a situation. As a character, he might as well not even exist and the story wouldn't suffer for it. The only aspect of Byleth's arc that I like is

Spoiler

Jeralt's death scene, where Byleth's father says that the first time they cry is for his sake.

Other than that, I can't think of any reason why Byleth even stands out as anything more than an interestingly designed background character.

[Crysta]

They might as well have let us just see the story unfold through the viewpoint of one of the lords. His background was mildly interesting, but otherwise...

I can enjoy a game without S supporting someone myself, I promise. I've done it plenty of times.

[Boomhauer007]

Heavily dislike.

Self inserts drag every fire emblem that uses them down. The "emotionless silent but everyone is drawn to them" is obnoxious. Every Lord needing Byleth to be their savior post skip is avatar pandering of the highest degree. 

In terms of usability, it's incredibly obnoxious to not be able to put the controller down during cutscenes because I need to click either single dialogue options or "choices" that have 0 impact on anything. 

Enlightened One is visually one of the worst classes in the history of the series. 

Tl;Dr Byleth makes me mad. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not a big fan of Byleth.

A disclaimer, first of all, that I don't like silent mains generally. We're supposed to be able to self-insert onto them but I just can't. This is especially true of most silent mains in JRPGs, who often have relatively static aspects to them (appearance, age, backstory, implied personality, often gender). So of course Byleth falls flat for me in that regard.

I am also really not a fan of how Byleth is used as a vector for player worship. At repeated points in the game, we stop and go around the room and every character talks about how great Byleth is. This is embarrassing. Byleth is also used as a catch-all excuse for things like characters changing sides in the war because they just love/respect Byleth so much. Much of the fandom has also definitely run with the view that Byleth is "god" who "saves" many of the characters (including all the lords plus Rhea and various others) and while I think some people have interpretations which exaggerate this compared to my own impressions it still sours me on the character's role in the story further.

I'm fine with his/her design (and outright like Byleth F), and I think the game manages to give him/her solid relationships with both Jeralt and the lords (mostly by the way those other characters are written). In fact all three lord S supports feel like good endings to the story and not pandery, which I respect. I also think that Byleth being a boring piece of cardboard may have freed up the writers to take more risks with the other major characters. But overall, my feelings are more negative than positive.

[Hawkwing]

3 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think that's probably the aspect that works the least about Byleth. Its just very silly that Byleth is the professor yet his student must work to teach him all about even the most basic facts of Fodlan such as the knights of Seiros. I understand why the game put in options to explain such things to newcomers but Byleth being the one to explain such things to the students and player alike would be more fitting for a professor. 

This aspect annoyed me as well, and indeed could have been easily fixed just by rearranging the question. Byleth saying that they have heard of certain factions or people before but don't know the finer details and/or that they do know of them but would like a second opinion would have gone a long way, and maybe could have even added some much needed flair to Byleths dialogue to boot. It doesn't help that Robin having amnesia and Corrin being sheltered were more natural excuses for why they asked similar questions, and in the case of Mark, it was part of the tutorial, whereas with Byleth, these kind of questions don't fit their character and aren't the most engaging way to expand the world.

[Icelerate]

I see them as a necessary evil to have multiple routes or else how do you justify other routes without creating a plot hole? For example, Alastor on his recent play-through was perplexed how arbitrarily it is decided to make either Eirika or Ephraim the leader with the only thing justifying the difference being an outside force. 

[Fates-Blade]

I don't like Byleth because of their inconsistent personality depending on the paths,

unlike Corrin who's implied to be a different person in each path.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[null]

3 hours ago, Boomhauer007 said:

In terms of usability, it's incredibly obnoxious to not be able to put the controller down during cutscenes because I need to click either single dialogue options or "choices" that have 0 impact on anything. 

Except the dialogue choices do have an impact on your support levels with other characters. It may not be a major difference, but it does have an effect. I agree that the dialogue choices should’ve been handled better, but to say that they do nothing is largely inaccurate.

[Darkmoon6789]

While I am a fan of shipping Edelgard and Byleth, this is more due to Edelgard's reaction to Byleth than Byleth themselves. There is only really one side emoting here, as Byleth doesn't really have much of a character. I also kind of like the design for female Byleth, for some reason she comes off as more expressive than her male counterpart.

I wonder what the game would be like without a player insert character. Presumably you would play directly as one of the Lords. I think this would be really cool, but it would require changing quite a bit in white clouds, especially for the Black Eagles. But I think that would only would make the game more interesting. But you also would need to rewrite so that Edelgard has another reason to start opening up to people and Dimitri having another reason to recover from his insanity, but I think this could be done.

Spoiler

Also, just imagine how cool it would be to experience white clouds from the perspective of the Flame Emperor, that could certainly be used as an opportunity to explore various things going on at the time and allow you to really get into the head of the character. Would make a Black Eagles playthrough vastly different. Of course, playing as Edelgard directly would make silver snow as it is now completely impossible. But you could introduce a route where you play as either Rhea or Seteth to compensate.

Whenever we are talking about Edelgard, Dimitri, Claude or whoever we will choose to be the player character for the church route. I think this would allow the player to get closer to these characters than ever before. We would experience their struggles rather than being a simple observer.

I have been trying to give Byleth more of a character in the pathfinder game I have been running. As this is set after the end of Crimson Flower, she is a compassionate individual who nevertheless never hesitate to do what she feels needs to be done. (She is a grey paladin to reflect her moral flexibility compared to other holy champions). She recently awoken to strengthened emotions after having a hamper on her emotional life for the majority of her life. Meaning, she is not entirely used to dealing with the full intensity of emotions. As a former mercenary. She is usually very blunt, the opposite of sophisticated and feel more at home with the common folk than the nobility. She essentially serves as the angel on Edelgard's shoulders as opposed to Hubert's devil.

[killelall]

I'd say I am pretty meh about the character.  I wouldn't say Byleth was badly written... but poorly directed.

Spoiler

 

Story wise I found it somewhat interesting that you were getting to hear the prayers of the people and answer them without anyone really being aware that you were Sothis answering their prayers. (Though, its odd that the most religious house was the one least affected by Sothis's presence; whereas, the least religious house was the most affected.)
...but it also felt rather detached as we were more-often told how good of a teacher Blyeth was, rather than their being scenes of him giving demonstrations or such.

Its... interesting... how many people  misunderstand his character.  He's not a blank slate, nor is he a true self insert. He has a back story, a specific personality, and so on. He's an empty vessel, and the lack of emotions is his personality - having never laughed or cried. He has a developed family that is important to the story, and so on. Because he's a mind bending god, people are drawn to him. Especially Edelgard who is drawn to him because of her Crest of Seiros, causing her to be drawn to Sothis just like Rhea is. (Much like how Lindhardt is often sleepy due to his crest.)

@Hawkwing: ...but it did fit the character. His father was intentionally keeping Blyeth in the dark about things to hide his own lack of aging and who Blyeth really was as he was hiding from Rhea out of fear. Seteth and a few other characters comment about this, noting how Jeralt raised Byleth to be bizarre. 

@Dark Holy Elf: Its pretty much said that that is what is going on. Lindhardt, Bernadetta, and a few others comment about noticing their behavior is different around Blyeth. He is Sothis. A mind bending god. Or rather, since dragon blood can take over the hosts of said blood in the Fire Emblem series, these dragon blood infused people are responding because of how crests affect people throughout the Fire Emblem series.

 

On 6/6/2020 at 11:28 PM, twilitfalchion said:

Except the dialogue choices do have an impact on your support levels with other characters. It may not be a major difference, but it does have an effect. I agree that the dialogue choices should’ve been handled better, but to say that they do nothing is largely inaccurate.

Aye. And they also changed the script quite often throughout the game. There's a LOT of subtle changes that are easy to miss unless you are looking at dialogs side by side so you can take note of the subtle differences.

[Blackstarskywalker]

I quite like him / her, for the standards of an avatar character.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Byleth feels much less like a "My Unit" than Robin or Corrin, because you can't customize their appearance. Ironically, they're arguably less customizable than other units in the game - it's harder to raise their skill levels (especially in movement types), and they're the only user of the Sword-of-the-Creator.

However, Byleth feels more like a "Player Character" than Robin or Corrin. Not only is a major part of the game moving around a 3D environment as them, but you also have limited control over their dialogue. Corrin had My Castle, while Robin didn't even have that (you moved Chrom across the world map).

The end result is... an unhappy medium. If this character has a fixed appearance (and proficiencies, spell lists, etc.), why let me even change their name (which is literally never vocalized)? If this character is supposed to be "me", why can't I adjust their appearance (beyond DLC outfits)? And why do I never hear them speak (except in battles, where it literally doesn't matter), in a game with fully-voiced dialogue?

I'm not opposed to Byleth's existence, but I find myself wishing that they could go one way (make them a more defined character, with a fixed name and personality, also voiced lines) or the other (fully customizable appearance, proficiencies, dialogue choices).

[Ottservia]

13 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If this character is supposed to be "me", why can't I adjust their appearance (beyond DLC outfits)?

It beats Robin’s hood or the stupid number of ways they would try to avoid showing Corrin’s face in pre-rendered cutscenes. If that’s what it takes for better cutscene direction then I’m all for it, personally.