What are your thoughts on Byleth?

[Rapaille]

"All I have are half baked thoughts"  Intelligent System while creating Byleth

 Byleth doesn't work in any way that you look at him. As a self insert you barely have control over his actions (I wouldn't jump in front of an axe to possibly save a girl I just met) and the limited dialogue options mean you can't express yourself through him/her (Why can't I be sarcastic/cynical?). As a character there are ideas that could work but all of them are executed badly. His/her whole shtick with having a god inside him is never utilized in an interesting way. He/she doesn't seem to have any motivation/goal and just goes along for the ride and is basically used as an excuse to explain to the player what is going on. The relation between him and Jeralt is barely developed and we never get an idea of how he lived prior to the monastery and how it is that he knows nothing about the world despite having lived the mercenary life for almost his entire life. The player worship also is still ridiculous (You are god, Edelgard sees you as her only equal, you are the one who turns Dimitri back to normal, you are the leader of the church in 3 routes because you are somehow more qualified then Seteth and become a god-king in 2 routes or leader of the main religion in 1 route).

What really saves him/her is the fact that he/she is never obnoxious and that the other characters are mostly great (which is one of the reasons why Kris is horrible since he is one of the only characters in fe12 with dialogue within the story). The fact that there are ideas I like also helps since it makes me think about how I would write him/her. 

Tl;dr, Byleth bad but I don't care enough to get mad.

[whase]

I stopped seeing Byleth as an avatar and it fixes him/her for me. Had they not given Byleth the option of having a different name nor the terribly unnecessary dialogue options, (s)he would have been an okay character in my book. The absence of personality on purpose is interesting enough for me, since it is actually plot related.

Gameplay also wouldn't need to change, if it's not weird that we're controlling Link in LoZ, it's not weird to walk around with Byleth as a character without them being an "avatar".

[Strullemia]

He's another avatar character. Which is to say he's as good/bad as Robin, Corrin and Kris. The best thing I can say about Byleth is that I find his backstory really interesting.

Thankfully 3H has routes for specific lords so I can mostly ignore Byleth in favor of Edelgard, Claude or Dimitri when playing their routes.

[Etrurian emperor]

I don't really hold the lack of customization against Byleth. The idea of customizing your avatar and even the idea that these characters were supposed to represent us was always something of a farce.

You can theoretically alter Robin's appearance but at the end of the day Robin has a very clear canon design. No game or medium aside from Fire Emblem Awakening takes any change you make into account. You could alter Robin's appearance but who are you kidding? And while Robin's personality is muted enough to make just about anyone identify with him he does have one. He's no silent protagonist nor a protagonist who's dialogue you pick yourself. 

Corrin is even less of an avatar. Where Robin has a muted personality Corrin has a very dominant personality. No matter who tries to identify with Corrin he's always an extremely naive bleeding heart. You can alter his appearance but due to Corrin being a very defined character instead of an avatar this is always within a certain limit. Most notably you cannot customize Corrin's age because as part of his defined character he has a defined age that's always below Xander and Ryoma but above Takumi and Leo. 

In that sense Byleth is the truest avatar we had so far because he really is an avatar. We can't customize his age or appearance but his personality is almost entirely up to the player. We decide everything byleth say and we decide how he feels on everything, something neither Corrin nor Robin allowed. 

[Hawkwing]

@killelall

I don't mind that Byleth isn't super knowledgeable about certain locations and factions. After all, in real life it is possible to know of a country or group and not know much about their inner workings. My issue is that Byleth has never heard of these places or governments before despite having a background as a traveling mercenary.

Even if Jeralt sheltered them, it doesn't make a lot of sense why Byleth has no knowledge of the main powers of the continent despite supposedly fighting across the land for several years. I can buy that Byleth doesn't know much about each faction beyond their name and surface government facts, and that Jeralt deliberately avoided contact with the church. What I don't get is why the writers have Byleth ask some really obvious questions that ending up make them look clueless about the world and things they should already have some knowledge of. As I mentioned earlier, these moments could have benefited from some rewording to make it seem like Byleth has heard or even been to some of these places, but would like a second opinion or more information. It would fit nicely with their background while still informing the player of the setting.

[SRPG Tryhard]

Byleth is the best MC in the series and one of the best characters in his/her game.

Their psychopath background established by Jeralt and because of their birth, goes miles in justifying their lack of knowledge on the world (they simply didn't care) while suits their position as a player character who will also lack information during their first playthrough. For when the player does know, either by their previous playthrough or by looking into the lore, the player is given dialog choices to account for that. In some cases, they can even get support point with characters as a small reward for understanding the lore.

But I think the most genius aspect their design is how it is shown that he/her can make people like them. Byleth/Player can study the background of people in the world and deduce the choices that would they like. He can adapt his personality and choices to the other person in order to get on their good side, which is represented by getting support points. For example, they can pick contrasting options when speaking to npcs in the monastery explore segments. This would normally seem contrived and "gamey" but in Byleth's case it matches perfectly with their psycho/sociopath personality and being the player's pawn, the player may want to choose things that will do just that for the gameplay reward. This is further built upon by the counselor and tea time activities. 

Meanwhile they are given opportunities to react to the events in the game and express themselves, which because of their usual lack of emotion, make the impact more noticeable. In plenty of situations, their reaction matches pretty well with what every player would have, such as Bernadetta's love for pitcher plants, or the Death Knight's joining the battle of Gareg Mach and picking a side during chapter 11. At other times the player can choose bizarre dialog choices where the player might want to "just see their reaction" for their amusement such as "Manuella's mask" or "Is it Jeritza" in chapter 6.

Byleth also has a great arc during Crimson Flower where they actually change to become human, signified by how it is Edelgard holding them in the final cutscene rather than Byleth saving Rhea/Dimitri/Claude in all other routes. It shows them as vulnerable and needing of Edelgard's support instead of being a savior with no weaknesses who goes on to become an infallible god emperor in the other routes. This completes their arc that began in the prologue where they rush to save Edelgard much to Jeralt's surprise (because of his background). It fulfills his wish for Byleth to find friends and love which he expresses by worrying for them throughout White Clouds and giving them his ring.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Nickdos

[vanguard333]

Byleth is certainly a better attempt at a custom character than Robin or Corrin, but they still have issues. 

 

On 6/8/2020 at 1:06 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Byleth feels much less like a "My Unit" than Robin or Corrin, because you can't customize their appearance. Ironically, they're arguably less customizable than other units in the game - it's harder to raise their skill levels (especially in movement types), and they're the only user of the Sword-of-the-Creator.

However, Byleth feels more like a "Player Character" than Robin or Corrin. Not only is a major part of the game moving around a 3D environment as them, but you also have limited control over their dialogue. Corrin had My Castle, while Robin didn't even have that (you moved Chrom across the world map).

The end result is... an unhappy medium. If this character has a fixed appearance (and proficiencies, spell lists, etc.), why let me even change their name (which is literally never vocalized)? If this character is supposed to be "me", why can't I adjust their appearance (beyond DLC outfits)? And why do I never hear them speak (except in battles, where it literally doesn't matter), in a game with fully-voiced dialogue?

I'm not opposed to Byleth's existence, but I find myself wishing that they could go one way (make them a more defined character, with a fixed name and personality, also voiced lines) or the other (fully customizable appearance, proficiencies, dialogue choices).

This. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all seem like bad compromises for making a custom protagonist:

Robin and Corrin have the gameplay customization of a custom character, but the fixed dialogue and personality of a fixed character without having the, well, character of a fixed character. They're both compromises.

Byleth is almost the inverse: fixed gameplay and personality, but variable dialogue. In that way, Byleth is more of a player-insert character than a custom protagonist; playing the game feels less like we are them, and more like we are guiding them on their journey. In that sense, Byleth could easily be compared to similar player-insert characters such as Geralt, who has a similar level of customization (if not more) in gameplay and dialogue options while still being a fixed character. However, there are some big differences between them: Geralt isn't named by the player, and Geralt is full of personality.

[Crysta]

What's Byleth's 'fixed personality'?

'Variable' dialogue is usually two choices that vaguely mean the same thing.

[Etrurian emperor]

14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

What's Byleth's 'fixed personality'?

'Variable' dialogue is usually two choices that vaguely mean the same thing.

Well, he's always incredibly stoic with difficulty expressing himself. He's mute precisely because he has trouble expressing himself. 

Also its possibly to roleplay him with a slight obsession about ghosts. Its a topic that Byleth can keep coming back to if you let him. 

[Crysta]

He's not mute, though.

He deliberately doesn't have any discernible personality traits and the dialogue choices are mostly there just to get from point a to point b.

When do the ghost choices pop up?

[Etrurian emperor]

Just now, Crysta said:

He's not mute, though.

He deliberately doesn't have any discernible personality traits and the dialogue choices are mostly there just to get from point a to point b.

When do the ghost choices pop up?

Matter of speech. He's technically not mute but the game does point out he's usually very silent and that its weird. While he presumably does speak the fact that he behaves like a silent protagonist is acknowledged. 

One of the first thing you can tell Sothis is that you're a ghost. I think later with Alois it comes up too and when you're in the monestrary you can make a comment about it to Ashe and Lysithea some times. 

[Crysta]

'Stoic' and 'unemotional' are synonyms so it doesn't really disprove the point, regardless. The other characters seem to be more unnerved by his clear lack of an emotional response to things that would typically evoke a reaction in a normal person than his lack of communication.

Don't remember any ghost choices in monastery dialogue. I could be misremembering or forgetting, but I've replayed the game like four times already, so idk...

The only time I felt that Byleth was an actual character was when Jeralt died and he went after Kronya, but that quickly evaporates and I still didn't really come out of it thinking "wow Byleth is a really compelling character". It was just the first time he's explored any end of the emotion spectrum lol

 

 

[Ottservia]

Y’all just need to realize that Byleth is a kuudere and then everything begins to make sense

[Rapaille]

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Y’all just need to realize that Byleth is a kuudere and then everything begins to make sense

So my anime trope knowledge is limited but from what I know kuudere is basically the Rei-archetype (there probably are older kuudere characters but Rei is probably the most well known and the only one I know anyway).

First I want to ask. In what way makes Byleth being a kuudere interesting? We are just said that he had no personality and slowly got one over time. Then after the Loli-fusion nothing is done with Byleth as a character beside giving Dimitri a 5 minute long therapy which somehow fixes his mindset (which is dumb but I won't get into it since it isn't related to my current point I'm trying to make). In all other routes he just hangs around and doesn't do anything interesting except for his S-support. 

It's fun to categorize characters/stories but it doesn't automatically make them good. That's like saying that I need to realize Suicide Squid is a superhero movie and then everything will make sense (maybe a bit hyperbolic but still).

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, Rapaille said:

So my anime trope knowledge is limited but from what I know kuudere is basically the Rei-archetype (there probably are older kuudere characters but Rei is probably the most well known and the only one I know anyway).

First I want to ask. In what way makes Byleth being a kuudere interesting? We are just said that he had no personality and slowly got one over time. Then after the Loli-fusion nothing is done with Byleth as a character beside giving Dimitri a 5 minute long therapy which somehow fixes his mindset (which is dumb but I won't get into it since it isn't related to my current point I'm trying to make). In all other routes he just hangs around and doesn't do anything interesting except for his S-support. 

It's fun to categorize characters/stories but it doesn't automatically make them good. That's like saying that I need to realize Suicide Squid is a superhero movie and then everything will make sense (maybe a bit hyperbolic but still).

I mean I never said it made Byleth interesting or that they are a particularly well written because of that. You’re talking to the guy who’s favorite archetype is the tsundere and even I can admit that 90% of tsunderes out there are kind of shit. Regardless, I’m just saying it’s not really much of a criticism to say Byleth has no personality because that’s kinda the point. The fact that they are a character that starts off with little personality but slowly begins to showcase one more over time is the whole point of their character. They’re a kuudere by the straightest definition of the term. Like yeah they have no personality but that’s the point.

Fact is I’m not gonna go into a horror movie and criticize it for being scary cause that’s the point of a horror movie nor am I gonna criticize it for not being funny because it was never trying to be funny. You don’t criticize things for what they’re not nor do you criticize them for doing what they set out to do.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Ottservia

[Crysta]

It wasn't a criticism. It's a disagreement with the argument made that Byleth has a personality, let alone a fixed personality.

 

[Rapaille]

8 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean I never said it made Byleth interesting or that they are a particularly well written because of that. You’re talking to the guy who’s favorite archetype is the tsundere and even I can admit that 90% of tsunderes out there are kind of shit. Regardless, I’m just saying it’s not really much of a criticism to say Byleth has no personality because that’s kinda the point. The fact that they are a character that starts off with little personality but slowly begins to showcase one more over time is the whole point of their character. They’re a kuudere by the straightest definition of the term. Like yeah they have no personality but that’s the point.

Fact is I’m not gonna go into a horror movie and criticize it for being scary cause that’s the point of a horror movie nor am I gonna criticize it for not being funny because it was never trying to be funny. You don’t criticize things for what they’re not nor do you criticize them for doing what they set out to do.

Fair enough. Just like I said in my original posts there are ideas that could have worked. The problem is that they couldn't follow up on any of these factors because they needed a self insert.

[vanguard333]

On 6/15/2020 at 3:39 AM, Crysta said:

What's Byleth's 'fixed personality'?

'Variable' dialogue is usually two choices that vaguely mean the same thing.

Largely a lack of personality pre-character development (it's subtle, but it's there), which is one of the comparisons I made between Byleth and Geralt (from The Witcher games). 

I said it was variable dialogue; I never said it was well-executed variable dialogue. That's another reason for the comparison to Geralt. 

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Largely a lack of personality pre-character development (it's subtle, but it's there), which is one of the comparisons I made between Byleth and Geralt (from The Witcher games). 

The key difference here is Byleth lacks any of the character or expression Geralt does, mostly due to 3H incredibly limited animation, and done to purposefully make Byleth look dead inside. Even with his "fixed personality", Geralt still reacts to things, expresses emotions, and generally appears more alive than Byleth. 

[SRPG Tryhard]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:34 AM, Crysta said:

It wasn't a criticism. It's a disagreement with the argument made that Byleth has a personality, let alone a fixed personality.

 

Yes, Byleth has both a personality and plenty of opportunities to pick choices that aren't "the same".

[Crysta]

7 hours ago, Nickdos said:

Yes, Byleth has both a personality and plenty of opportunities to pick choices that aren't "the same".

Name five "different choices" that aren't simply re-words and three clearly defined character traits.

Since you volunteered that there was "plenty" and you imply that you remember them.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Crysta

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 6/14/2020 at 2:54 PM, vanguard333 said:

Byleth is certainly a better attempt at a custom character than Robin or Corrin, but they still have issues. 

 

This. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all seem like bad compromises for making a custom protagonist:

Robin and Corrin have the gameplay customization of a custom character, but the fixed dialogue and personality of a fixed character without having the, well, character of a fixed character. They're both compromises.

Byleth is almost the inverse: fixed gameplay and personality, but variable dialogue. In that way, Byleth is more of a player-insert character than a custom protagonist; playing the game feels less like we are them, and more like we are guiding them on their journey. In that sense, Byleth could easily be compared to similar player-insert characters such as Geralt, who has a similar level of customization (if not more) in gameplay and dialogue options while still being a fixed character. However, there are some big differences between them: Geralt isn't named by the player, and Geralt is full of personality.

Thanks! That's kind of a more refined version of what I was trying to say. Byleth is less customizable gameplay wise (and hence, less of a "my unit"), but more controllable narratively (so more of a "player character"), in comparison to Corrin and Robin. Still, I actually think earlier Avatars had a more defined personality than Byleth (whose dialogue you can choose, thus impacting his interactions with others). I appreciate that they were willing to experiment with controllable dialogue choices, but I'm not sure it should come back - even if it gives the player more options, it undermines the main character having a defined, independent personality. 

[SRPG Tryhard]

12 hours ago, Crysta said:

Name five "different choices" that aren't simply re-words and three clearly defined character traits.

Since you volunteered that there was "plenty" and you imply that you remember them.

Play the game to find out, not gonna waste my time with this when you insist on that same wrong argument throughout the thread. You are evidently too biased to care.

[whase]

I mean yes, there are plenty of dialogue choices that are very different or even opposite picks, the sad thing is that it always leads to the same conclusion, only thing that changes is whether you get the support point or not.

[Chard]

Personally, I did not like the direction they took with Byleth. People criticize the protagonists in this series for being dull, but I disagree relatively speaking. I thought Corrin and Robin had no less character than all the others in their games. Byleth, however, fits that criticism to a T. I just don't think the complete blank slate character type fits this kind of game. Maybe not everyone sees Byleth as blank, but I definitely did.