What is your preferred method of class change?

[null]

Throughout the Fire Emblem series, class change has been implemented in various ways, from using a class-specific item to promote (Elysian Whip, Guiding Ring, Hero Crest, etc.), to using a single item that works for all classes (Master Seal, Second Seal), to it occurring upon reaching a certain level (FE9, FE10), or even just being available in base or in a shrine (FE2, FE4). What is your preferred method of class change and why?

Personally, I kind of like the simplicity of level-based class change that the Tellius games implemented. Yes, Master Seals are available, but they are optional unless you want to promote early. For me, this removes the annoyance of hunting for Master Seals as soon as possible or buying them to promote.

EDIT: Forgot to mention 3H's system of class change (beginner, intermediate, advanced, master, and dark seals).

Edited June 9, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Alastor15243]

I prefer the master seal system simply because that's the one that's necessary for reclass systems, which I like a lot. The Tellius method could work too, but a class-specific item promotion would be pointless if you can change what item you need and then change back.

[Koops]

Honestly, as arbitrary as the GBA system is and as unfair it can be to new players (i.e. needing specific items to promote certain classes), I still think it adds a layer of strategy and gives your decision to promote a unit that much more meaningful.

FE9's system is fine too. You can earlypromote if you want but leveling up to 20 in this game is easy, and perfectly feasible especially with the bonus exp you get. I like how chapter 17 always ends up being where everyone promotes for many players.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I like the Tellius system. Master Seals are an undue annoyance, and just being able to promote with xp is pretty natural. 

[whase]

I know it wasn't mentioned, but I really like the 3H class system. Level and skill prerequisites, but level is never capped. 

[Yexin]

i'm honestly fine with any class change method, they're all fun and satisfying in my opinion... unless it's 3H's

that's simply NOT a thing that should be affected by RNG: class changing a character with this method leaves me such a sour taste in my mouth, it doesn't make me feel like i accomplished nor achieved anything, i've just been lucky

and if i'm not lucky, and actually meet a certain class change's requirements, that's simply because i farmed and grinded and basically wasted time

Edited June 9, 2020 by Yexin

[Fabulously Olivier]

The structure of the 3H class system is cool in principle, but I agree that 1) luck should not play a role and 2) requirements should be met in full, but should also be more reasonable to meet.

 

Also on a related but separate note, 3H's class system has a number of gaping, unacceptable holes. Lack of any endgame infantry lass class that isn't lord specific. Lack of any endgame infantry class for male mages. Lack of any endgame axe infantry class for female axe or gauntlet wielders. Lack of any male master class that actually emphasizes lances. Lack of a logical promotion for Paladin. Tons of classes that are just straight up bad, opening up more holes.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Fabulously Olivier

[Alastor15243]

15 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The structure of the 3H class system is cool in principle, but I agree that 1) luck should not play a role and 2) requirements should be met in full, but should also be more reasonable to meet.

 

Also on a related but separate note, 3H's class system has a number of gaping, unacceptable holes. Lack of any endgame infantry lass class that isn't lord specific. Lack of any endgame infantry class for male mages. Lack of any endgame axe infantry class for female axe or gauntlet wielders. Lack of any male master class that actually emphasizes lances. Lack of a logical promotion for Paladin. Tons of classes that are just straight up bad, opening up more holes.

Honestly, I would have made the 3H class system focus on movement types and skills, not weapons. Follow through with the "anyone can use anything" premise and get rid of faire skills and locks on magic. Let me customize my own movement and weapon type combos like I'm making a new Heroes unit, and let me have some serious crazy fun with ambitious builds. The way it is, it's just a really obnoxious way to overcomplicate and suffocate the 3DS reclassing system into something with more effort and less reward.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

Personally, I think Fates offered the best way of doidng so and also the most freedom. Beingg able to keep your level while reclassing allowed for more creativity without forcing you to grind back to level ten. If I were to implement a reclassing system, of make it similar to Fates, but instead of friendship seals and the like, I'd just use proficiency fulfilments like three houses. 

[whase]

13 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Also on a related but separate note, 3H's class system has a number of gaping, unacceptable holes. Lack of any endgame infantry lass class that isn't lord specific. Lack of any endgame infantry class for male mages. Lack of any endgame axe infantry class for female axe or gauntlet wielders. Lack of any male master class that actually emphasizes lances. Lack of a logical promotion for Paladin. Tons of classes that are just straight up bad, opening up more holes.

To be fair, doesn't every FE have classes that are clearly worse than others? Don't most FE have no endgame unmounted lance classes? (Though 3H allows you to unmount which grants more speed, which makes paladins a worthy unmounted lance endgame class to me.) And are 3H master classes really that much of a must? (Staying as paladin or assassin or swordmaster or sniper or warrior or whathaveyou is just fine, they don't need more of the same as master class.)

13 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Let me customize my own movement and weapon type combos like I'm making a new Heroes unit, and let me have some serious crazy fun with ambitious builds.

Yes! This! I implemented this in my own tabletop game and the craziest ideas are the most fun. (Armored wyvern sorcerer anyone?)

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Also on a related but separate note, 3H's class system has a number of gaping, unacceptable holes. Lack of any endgame infantry lass class that isn't lord specific. Lack of any endgame infantry class for male mages. Lack of any endgame axe infantry class for female axe or gauntlet wielders. Lack of any male master class that actually emphasizes lances. Lack of a logical promotion for Paladin. Tons of classes that are just straight up bad, opening up more holes.

It's not like the other FE games are much better off in this regard - every FE game has its fair share of bad classes, with archers and axe infantry getting the shaft most of the time. And outside of General, most FEs lack a foot lance class.

As to the topic, I like Master Seals.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Fabulously Olivier]

I never said that the lack of an infantry lance class was acceptable in any other game that lacks them. It should be a staple class in every game going forward, always.

[Samz707]

I guess it depends on the game?

I kinda like the GBA system since you have to think about Promotions.

3H adding luck sounds kinda bad, one of my problems with some strategy games (Such as the reboot x-com games) is adding Luck elements for the sake of them which just ends up being frustrating rather than actual strategy.

 

[Deenward]

My ideal class change system would be something between GBA and Tellius. I'd keep promotion items that correspond to various classes, but let characters promote if they got over level 20. This provides a fail-safe for players who aren't able to obtain certain items, but punishes them from gimping their units by keeping them in an inferior base class longer. 

However, since I believe all future original FEs are gonna use the skill system in some capacity, I'll address how I feel about that. I think Fates and 3H's class change systems work so well because skills/abilities are so important to the meta of those experiences. Finding creative ways to get characters to reach certain benchmarks or pairing them up with certain characters in the case of Fates to create unique builds. This works really well in Fates Conquest, since Hard and Lunatic were thoughtfully balanced around the freedom players have to sculpt their units with the limited tools they have available. Having classes that correspond to a character's personality through "heart seals" was also a nice touch that opened up other possibilities for customization. I agree that basing 3H's class promotions purely on level and weapon ranks makes creating said builds a chore. The catharsis of reaching said benchmarks is still satisfying imao, but the journey is just a slog. Fates made creating certain builds an interesting puzzle that got increasingly satisfying once you understood the game more. So, if skills are an inevitability in new titles, I'd go back to the Fates system and expand on the ideas presented there by adding more heart-seal style class change option and expanding the number of classes overall to make the sandbox bigger.

[Thane]

I think this is one of those things that I rather enjoy in all games for what it is. I have a very hard time picking a favorite system, I must say. Even the restrictive GBA system can be fun in how you have to choose who to give the power boost too, though the games can get a bit too stingy with the seals.

[Hawkwing]

I think Master Seals are the overall best system so far, as they give the player the choice of who they want to promote and when, without any other bells or whistles attached aside from being limited in some games. Simple while allowing for player choice, which is a good combination in this case.

I like Tellius's "promote at level 20" system on paper, though in practice the game would have to be designed with it in mind. It is pretty easy to get most of the cast to level 20 in some Fire Emblem games, whereas in others it would be a complete chore. It would be cool to see this system return, but I wouldn't want to see it inserted haphazardly.

I enjoyed how Shadow of Valentia's promotions didn't require any resources, though I understand where people come from if they didn't like that you have to go to a dungeon or a specific section of the map in order to do so. Villagers were also a little underutilized, though I wouldn't be surprised if IS was curious to see how people would respond to the mechanic and if players would like to see it expanded upon in a future game. With some tweaks and adjustments, it would be neat to see Echoes system or something similar to it return in some fashion.

I haven't played much of the GBA games, but I can't say I'm a huge fan of the class specific promotions. While I like the strategic edge of having to decide which characters of each class set should get the promotion, as someone that prefers using multiple characters and hates benching units, it occasionally came off as needlessly punishing the playstyle of using a variety of characters instead of sticking with a specific group. Again, I'm still playing through the GBA trilogy, so my opinion on how they handle promotions might change later on.

I thought Three Houses system was pretty interesting, if really rough around the edges (There is some rather pointless genderlocking, some in-between classes are missing, several of the master classes decided that characters should suddenly learn how to use magic or ride a horse, etc.). While I wouldn't want it become a series standard, I do want to see another attempt at this system that irons out the flaws and expands upon what worked.

[Kruggov]

Honestly all systems have their good/bad points.

Master Seal system is overall the best.

"Promote at 21" worked well in Tellius, even if in lategame overseas RD they undermined Master Crowns (and Holy Crown in particular).

Gaiden/SoV system is good, but the variation used in Genealogy punishes mid-chapter promotion hard (unless it's in chapters where you might need to backtrack close to your home castle, considering the size of the maps.

GBA system is IMO the worst, as it's sometimes needlessly restricting. Examples include mages/clerics in FE1/Mystery book 1 (you don't get guiding rings at all until chapter 19, at which point you're on home stretch towards endgame, what the hell), Rutger (who undermines every other Hero Crest user for a long time, simply because they don't get to promote until chapter 12 IIRC, and even then you only get to use one such unit, the third crest comes a bit late), Pirate Ross and Colm (they undermine each other since you don't get another Ocean Seal until chapter 14 secret shop) and, to an exent Matthew and Legault (Fell Contract comes late, and if you want to promote both, you have to buy another one for a massive 50k gold).

Three Houses system is very unusual, and is a bit rough around the edges. I'd say get rid of RNG chance to pass, but in return, lower the reqs. Byleth in particular needs the RNG on their side to get into advanced classes the moment s/he hits 20.

[AnonymousSpeed]

GBA system is the best. You want to use 4 paladins? I'm sorry, you have 1 knight's crest, try and use a warrior instead. I don't consider it a useless strategic consideration, though it can be problematic in instances where there are obvious best users for them and they're highly rare.

FE6 is, being the best game, an excellent example of the good and bad. Cavaliers and Knights both use Knight's Crests, but since cavaliers are so much better, they get all the Knight's Crests and armors become even worse for want of promotion. At the same time, FE6 shows how restricted promotion items are a balancing tool. You can't just use your Orion's Bolt to promote yet another cavalier, promotion is an advantage which can't be entirely concentrated on a few sorts of units.

***

I don't like the FE9 system, it ultimately makes promotion a more drawn out process and removes a previously interesting resource management decision. You mostly just sell seals and crowns in Tellius.

Master Seal is pretty cool in certain context. In Fates and Awakening, with so much class flexibility, it's very functional and enjoyable.

Shadows of Valentia is interesting, the game itself is so different overall I have a hard time saying if I think it would work in other contexts. Where would the shrines be if the game had no dungeon crawling? Could you put them in towns? Even promotion gains and weapon types work so different in Gaiden.

Genealogy system is admittedly kind of lame because it takes a lot longer to promote dudes, but it works for the sort of game Genealogy is.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 6/15/2020 at 12:33 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Shadows of Valentia is interesting, the game itself is so different overall I have a hard time saying if I think it would work in other contexts. Where would the shrines be if the game had no dungeon crawling? Could you put them in towns? Even promotion gains and weapon types work so different in Gaiden.

Each of the most recent games actually provides options on this front.

In Three Houses, the promotion shrine could be located in Garreg Mach itself. In fact, each of the four Saint's statues could give a different promotion (e.g. Macuil = Myrmidon, Cichol = Soldier, Indech = Fighter, Cethleann = Monk), and you could use each of them once a week. Not that I would necessarily want to displace the existing "certification exam" system.

In Fates, the promotion shrine could be located in "My Castle". It could even have different levels, attainable with DV points: the first lets you promote (Master Seals), the second lets you reclass (i.e. Second/Heart/Partner Seals), and the third lets you over-level (Eternal Seals). The Shrine could have a different design in each route, too.

In Awakening, there could be shrines accessible at certain sites on the world map (so you might have to battle Risen to access them). Some let you promote, others let you reclass. Ideally, ones on Valm could coincide with Mila idol locations in Gaiden/SoV. You could use each one once between chapters, possibly at a cost of gold.

Not sure how a statue system would be integrated into a "traditional FE" (one with neither a world map, nor a stationary base camp).

[X-Naut]

I like Master Seals the most. Separate promotion items can work but can also be overly restricting, and with reclassing it just doesn't make sense to include. Promotion by level is alright but it should not be the predominant way to do it.

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Each of the most recent games actually provides options on this front.

...

Not sure how a statue system would be integrated into a "traditional FE" (one with neither a world map, nor a stationary base camp).

Or you could have the FE4 approach where you can promote freely in the base or prep menu, but only after a certain point. It could be tied to the Lord promoting or some arbitrary story event. This system also has room for Master Seals to give you early and/or on-field promotions.

[whase]

18 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Or you could have the FE4 approach where you can promote freely in the base or prep menu, but only after a certain point. It could be tied to the Lord promoting or some arbitrary story event. This system also has room for Master Seals to give you early and/or on-field promotions.

That actually sounds like a great way for promotion, and a solution for if they want to keep 3H's all recruits are in the early game system.

If every character has a story-based moment from when they get to promote, and every promotion brings that character to the base stats of the promoted class (like in 3H), then the permadeath option becomes viable and interesting again. Lost your tanky knight? No problem, the knight you didn't train just got to their promotion moment and is ready to be thrown into battle now.

Having every unit needing their own story based promotion makes having it work a bit harder though. But I think it would be epic and worth it.