A way to be understood

[Perfect Infinitive Exitus]

Is there an algorithm, in which you can explain or otherwise get any individual, no matter who they are to understand your position?

Describe your best attempt!

Example:

Step 1: Be friendly

Step 2: Ask them what they care about

Step 3: Reason with analogy

Step 4: Profit

Or:

Step 1: Be mean to them

Step 2: Shame them for their actions

Step 3: Show how their actions result in True Irrevertable Horror 

Step 4: Profit

At what point would you give up?

Most helpful are points which helped you get your point across, Examples and Anecdotes are appreciated!

Obviously i am being a bit reductive here, the goal is to find a way everyone can agree on and find a way to not be misunderstood.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Perfect Infinitive Exitus

[Lord Raven]

14 minutes ago, Perfect Infinitive Exitus said:

Is there an algorithm, in which you can explain or otherwise get any individual, no matter who they are to understand your position?

Patience. People aren't something that you crack with an algorithm. I've tutored and taught for over a decade at this point, and the best ability was adaptability if you solely want to teach.

Time is the ultimate victor. Though, I also know what bad faith looks like; time and experience fixes bad faith, but not always. If you think someone can be reached, by all means and possibly research more into your own position. If you think someone's doing something to just piss around, then just vent out on them, flame them, and walk away.

[AnonymousSpeed]

No.

[eclipse]

The fact that you think that there's some sort of "algorithm" for this is weird.  Reading other people is something that's instinctual for most people (to varying degrees).  If this concept sounds alien to you, then please seek professional help.

[Parrhesia]

There is no algorithm, but shaming someone and calling them an intrinsically terrible person Unless they repent and convert to your way of knowing and being is literally never going to work and literally always going to make you look like a cunt.

[Ertrick36]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

The fact that you think that there's some sort of "algorithm" for this is weird.  Reading other people is something that's instinctual for most people (to varying degrees).  If this concept sounds alien to you, then please seek professional help.

There's an actual condition for this, you know.  It's called autism spectrum disorder, and while it generally has pretty variable effects it always affects one's ability to understand and communicate with other people.  You should think about how such people might feel about making jokes like this before you make them.  And if it's meant as a serious piece of advice, then you chose to frame your words poorly.

[eclipse]

5 minutes ago, Ertrick36 said:

There's an actual condition for this, you know.  It's called autism spectrum disorder, and while it generally has pretty variable effects it always affects one's ability to understand and communicate with other people.  You should think about how such people might feel about making jokes like this before you make them.  And if it's meant as a serious piece of advice, then you chose to frame your words poorly.

Please read the Serious Discussion sticky.  Then, do a bit more research - you can read other people's recent posts by clicking on their name.

And then PM me if you still aren't clear as to why I said that.

If I receive no PM from you, I'll assume that you figured it out.  Which means if you make this kind of assumption again, it'll most likely be a warning.  Do I make myself clear?

Edited June 10, 2020 by eclipse

[Tylwyth Teg]

I'd say that such algorithms definitely don't function quite so reliable when applied to real life. Your suggestions almost feel more like video-game logic, or mathematics or something.

When it comes to interacting with people and attempting to reach understanding, often the key factors at play are emotions. And, as I'm sure you well know, these can be drastically unpredictable! Some people can overreact emotionally, others might let emotions caused by other events to affect their decision. On the other end of the spectrum, people might be so willing to please that they will pretend to understand you to avoid hurting your feelings.

This isn't to say that there aren't things that you can to do make positive steps towards understanding, however! As human beings, our greatest tools of communication are our ability to empathize and exercise patience. If you (and the other person!) are willing to take the time to slow down, discuss, and make efforts to listen to each other and explore the topic at hand, then your chances of understanding are much improved. Even if you don't both necessarily agree with each other in the end, as long as you have had an empathetic and supportive conversation about the topic - then everyone is a winner!!

I would say that promoting positive values is always the best approach. Shaming somebody for their actions and telling them why they are terrible would only ever spark negative responses in that person. There is always a better way to approach situations that might allow you to discuss negative actions in a more constructive

 

11 hours ago, eclipse said:

If I receive no PM from you, I'll assume that you figured it out.  Which means if you make this kind of assumption again, it'll most likely be a warning.  Do I make myself clear?

I've gotta admit, I have no idea what Ertrick36 did to potentially earn a warning. I tried reading what you suggested and remain in the dark. Given the topic of this conversation, there's a certain irony in my lack of understanding!

[Fates-Blade]

No. There isn't an algorithm because like Tylwyth Teg said people can be unpredictable; but I think one key to a person understanding someone else is to see things from their perspective, but if no understanding is there it could take time, or there could be no understanding the person because what they're doing doesn't make sense.

Also not everybody will understand why sensible people think how they do all the way to death; I believe that's because of selfishness (possibly with pride), they don't want to see things from the other person's perspective (maybe because they think they have all the answers and don't even try to understand the other person).

 

Basically, a person should want to understand how someone thinks, if it makes sense (since people can do illogical things sometimes), for that someone to be understood, and not everyone will do that.

13 hours ago, eclipse said:

Please read the Serious Discussion sticky.  Then, do a bit more research - you can read other people's recent posts by clicking on their name.

And then PM me if you still aren't clear as to why I said that.

If I receive no PM from you, I'll assume that you figured it out.  Which means if you make this kind of assumption again, it'll most likely be a warning.  Do I make myself clear?

Would you explain for us here?

Edited June 10, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[Lycan]

My advise would be to

1)  If you find that communication practices are difficult for you and you have a hard time expressing your views on something, seek out professional help or if you are still in your youth commune with a legal guardian or school councilor.

2)  As a general rule of advice as someone that struggled with anxiety in middle school to high school and got through it quite well and had a good social life in college and after, you need to look at the person you are talking to.  Communication is not done soley with words half of what we communicate is done through involuntary facial/body gestures and pauses in our speaking.  These are processed by most in the brain subconsciously to provide a much wider gambit of information about the person you are speaking to.  Some people have difficulty either displaying these involuntary gestures or perceiving meaning from them in which case see point 1). 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Lycan

[Karimlan]

To clear the air a bit, I've taken the liberty of quoting from the sticky:

Quote

- There is an important difference between attacking an argument and attacking a person. Everyone posting here is a human being and worthy of being treated as such. Do not lose yourself in the heat of a disagreement and cross over that line. Nor should you automatically assume that when someone is arguing against you―in some cases forcefully, emphatically, and with strong language―that they are disrespecting you and not your position. Before you fly off the handle at a perceived offense take a step back and consider the situation from a different angle. Never post in the heat of the moment. Insulting other users will NOT be tolerated, regardless of if you feel "they started it".

Since the mental health relevance is brought up, this bears quoting, too:

Quote

- This subforum is no substitute for trained medical professionals. For any serious personal medical or psychological issues there are better places to get advice than from strangers on the internet. Get in touch with your primary care provider if you have one, or a relevant hotline (Suicide Prevention, Domestic Abuse, Substance Abuse, etc.) if you do not.

Lastly, any worthwhile discussion shouldn't be interrupted by a point-of-order statement, so this:

Quote

- When a moderator is posting in an official capacity, do not argue with them publicly. Contact them, or another moderator, in private to discuss whatever issue is at hand. If you are not sure if they are posting in an official capacity or whether they are simply arguing their side of the issue, ask them for clarification in PM first.

*All italics mine*

 

[Perfect Infinitive Exitus]

Some of these posts seem a little odd to me, especially casting assumptions about me specifically, i have no interest in those things. I am purely interested in concepts.

The topic is about a way to be understood and identifying things that help someone in general or helped you specifically be understood.

Algorithm might be poor wording, even though, if we can collectively identify factors, which help someone be understood, an algorithm is essentially what we can construct from all the identifications, to make sure we have done the most possible before giving up.

I "know" there is no such thing as an algorithm to be understood, especially because of the supposed unpredictability of emotions; the reason i created this topic was not because there is such a thing but rather in spite of it.

 

But to get back to the topic at hand:

18 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

There is no algorithm, but shaming someone and calling them an intrinsically terrible person Unless they repent and convert to your way of knowing and being is literally never going to work and literally always going to make you look like a cunt.

The examples i have given were to illustrate different ways of trying to convince someone but i think this was a good enough conclusion: If this tactic of shaming and calling someone terrible is an identification of somethig bad, which will probably not help you, there are identifications of something good which probably might, which is the reason i created this thread in the first place!

I think Raven identified two good points in my opinion: Patience and Adaptability.

The adaptability thing is especially important probably for multiple reasons.

And just trying to explain something once and then giving up probably won't help you.

Lets take what Tylwyth Teg used as an example, "emotions", the "current emotional state" and "emotional reaction"; If you had explained a topic without touching a sensitive subject, you might've been able to avoid an emotional reaction like anger or other, which hinders you from getting understood.

Since People percieve reality differently because they value and react emotionally differently to others, being able to adapt on how you portray your stance is a good way to get others to understand you; If we take what Parrhesia mentioned earlier as true, which is shaming or calling someone a terrible person being a bad idea unless it works, we can probably identify when the act of shaming or calling someone terrible works, in which case it is a good idea in those circumstances!

Fates-Blade also identified a concept, which i will call "Direction"; being adaptable has no meaning if you cannot properly direct the energy you are spending towards what is important from their perspective aka. what someone cares about, as an analogy to Tylwyth Teg, promoting positive values is usually taking what someone cares about and expanding on it!

Lycan identified a point, which adds to Adaptability and makes it more concrete, conversation is not limited by just words but by Gestures and mimes/memes (haha i made a joke), which aid in trying to get your point across, although merely waving your hand around probably does not help in some circumstances.

 

Also @Tylwyth Teg trying to identify/quantify emotions and their causes is a big factor here, people are unpredictable but as unpredictable as they are, they are still people, maybe we can make a case for each emotion and maybe there are some silver linings here, which allow for these to be differenciated.

This is why anecdotes are just as important to the discussion as generalizations are, they serve as an example or counterexample.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Perfect Infinitive Exitus
completeness and errors

[Tylwyth Teg]

15 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

To clear the air a bit, I've taken the liberty of quoting from the sticky:

Much appreciated!

[eclipse]

8 hours ago, Tylwyth Teg said:

I've gotta admit, I have no idea what Ertrick36 did to potentially earn a warning. I tried reading what you suggested and remain in the dark. Given the topic of this conversation, there's a certain irony in my lack of understanding!

It would be two counts:

1. Not reading the Serious Forum sticky, which details what to do about such situations (read it, it's helpful).
2. If he pulls it again, not listening.  I give less leeway in here, and it's due to the nature of the topics that come up.

7 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

Would you explain for us here?

If you really want an explanation, PM me.  It's complicated.