Mixed Builds - A Thread

[haarhaarhaar]

So I just finished (finally) my Maddening CF run, and this was my first run with all the DLC content. So I used it as an opportunity to test out some mixed builds (magic weapons/CAs in physical classes, or straight-up hybrids using spells and weapons). I've rated the characters I tried out below on how well they fit their builds (deeper analysis in the spoiler brackets), and I'd love to hear what mixed builds other people have tried out/how I could better optimise mixed builds for my upcoming Maddening BL run.

Hubert - 8.5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Cavalier > Paladin (> Dark Knight)

Skills as Paladin: Lance Prowess, Swordbreaker, Fiendish Blow, Magic +2, Mv +1

Taking advantage of Frozen Lance alongside Paladin is probably the most common mixed build there is, and for good reason. Hubert already has one of the best magic stats in the game, and Frozen Lance Paladin with a Silver Lance+ is a fairly reliable OHKO up until Ch. 16 or so. Arrow of Indra+ is amazing on him and it's a shame that the refined weapon is locked to CF. However, his hit rate is a bit shaky. 

The reason Hubert doesn't score higher is only because his utility is significantly increased with Dark Knight. Paladin makes Hubert far less fragile than a normal mage progression would, but he still can't be left on the frontlines, and terrain struggles in the late-game mean that Dark Knight can fight much more safely. On top of that, when I took him out of Paladin I gave him Caduceus Staff and Dark Magic Range +1, allowing him to hit from 5 spaces, and he also gets Recover if you can be bothered to fight his Faith disadvantage. I don't think Paladin was optimal, but Arrow of Indra in particular made Hubert a force to be dealt with.

Jeritza - 7/10

Spoiler

Progression: Death Knight (got Brigand but otherwise stayed in his class)

Skills as (hybrid) Death Knight: Lance Prowess, Reason Lv, Death Blow, Darting Blow, Mv +1

I should clarify a couple of things: 1) I decided halfway through Part II that magic on Jeritza wasn't really necessary, otherwise I would have done the normal things for a mage build. The above set of skills were not his final set of skills, just a mixture that I was messing around with when I was entertaining a hybrid. 2) Jeritza is insanely good, with or without magic.

Jeritza absolutely doesn't need magic - his endgame build was lances-focused, and he does just fine. But getting him to B Reason and D Faith wasn't wasted at all. He gets a 7/10 because he's strong enough and fast enough to double even with Thoron/Death, which with his personal means reliable magical chip from 3 spaces. As far as I'm concerned, the magic was more of a bonus than something he needed, and even the Heals came in handy situationally, because Jeritza can heal someone on the frontlines in a pinch and survive the following enemy phase. He's significantly better as a physical attacker, so he doesn't get more than a 7/10, but it isn't worth him focusing on magic anyway because his S/S+ Reason skills only apply to Death Γ, which has 4 uses in the Death Knight class anyway.

Dorothea - 5.5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Trickster

Skills as Trickster: Sword Prowess, Reason Lv, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker, Magic+2 (or Duelist's Blow)

If there's any takeaway from this run, it is that Trickster is entirely underwhelming as a class. Dorothea made the best of it thanks to a mixture of Hexblade, a great Reason spell list and Physic, meaning that she actually did function as a proper hybrid. However, it felt pretty pointless to train her in swords because she didn't have an enemy phase. 

 

Manuela - 4/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Thief > Trickster

Skills as Trickster: Sword Prowess, Faith Lv, Axebreaker, Steal, Mag +2

Manuela's Reason weakness means that attempting to get Bolting in a CF run is pointless unless you've already decided she's gonna make your endgame team. In fairness to Manuela, she had decent speed growths and not-bad damage output with Hexblade, as well as (just barely) having an enemy phase. However, she wasn't fast enough to dodge tank, powerful enough to OHKO, or versatile enough to do much other than hold a Levin Sword+. Silence saw a bit of use, but Ward is fairly useless in the midgame (except a couple of niche chapters like Flayn's paralogue), and I gave up on her before she got Warp - it would have made her more useful, but not enough to justify using her up to that point.

Ingrid - 5/10

Spoiler

Progression: Myrmidon > Monk > Mercenary > Mage > Trickster > Assassin/Swordsmaster

Endgame Skills: Sword Prowess, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker, Mag +2, Speed +2 

If that skill set looks sub-optimal, that's because she only made my endgame team as Sylvain's adjutant. The whole reason I started on this mixed builds idea was because Ingrid did great in VW but lacked killing power, and I wondered if optimising magical weapons would be better for her in the long run. I realise the obvious way to go would have been with lances, but my endgame plan already had three lance users, and this way Ingrid was only competing with Yuri for her endgame slot as sword chipper.

Levin Sword+ in general is a great weapon, and Ingrid still manages to pull off dodge tank shenanigans with it, particularly against Wyverns (and there are a lot of them in CF midgame). She's bulky enough to have a proper enemy phase even if she does take a hit, and has a good spell list. The reason I didn't rate her higher was because I was disappointed. I had planned for her to make my endgame team, but not only was her damage output still middling (and A rank for Hexblade is a ridiculous amount of time for very little reward) but her dodge tanking was only situational - brawlers were still hitting her regularly, for example, and she only managed to bait non-axe enemies successfully on a couple of occasions. Despite being OK overall, she was the biggest example of wasted potential on my run - I wouldn't recommend.

Ignatz - 9/10

Spoiler

Progression: Monk > Mage > Trickster > Mortal Savant > Dancer

Endgame Skills: Special Dance, Sword Prowess, Sword Avoid+20, Fiendish Blow, Axebreaker

I'm partial to Ignatz anyway, but I can recognise the only reason he rates so much higher than the other sword users on here was because I certed him as Dancer. Ignatz became what all the other Levin Sword+ users wanted to be. His Mag output still wasn't quite enough to kill enemies he couldn't double (or even some that he could) but actually pulling off the dodge tank build meant that it didn't matter. He's come in clutch a lot for me, and was surprisingly both Speed and Charm-blessed on my playthrough, despite spending a lot of time in MS and having poor Charm growths. The result was avoid over 90, and even though I classed him back into dancer for Endgame, he was great as a hybrid the entire way through (Physic and his personal really helped). The reason he doesn't get a perfect 10 is because dodge-tanking with swords still isn't a sure thing, and neither his HP nor his def/res were good enough for him to take even one hit. Of course, seeing as he didn't end up fulfilling a combat role I don't mind too much.

Hanneman - 10/10

Spoiler

Progression: Mage > Dark Mage > Archer > Sniper

Endgame Skills: Bow Prowess, Bow Crit +10, Hit +20, Fiendish Blow, Poison Strike

HOLY FUCK!!! I never in my life expected to be writing an appreciation post for Hanneman. In the first place, I wasn't even planning on using him after his paralogue, he didn't leave a strong impression on me in my previous playthroughs in terms of gameplay or story, and I was stuck for what to do with him until I remembered his Indech Crest, and thought maybe he should try using weapons. Thank God that I did - Sniper is potentially the best infantry class anyway, but Hanneman really takes it to new levels. Hanneman gets a 10/10 because I think Sniper is the best class that he can have, and here's why.

Hanneman is an average mage in general. His spell list is roughly comparable to Dorothea's, although she gets Meteor earlier and Physic >> Recover. However, Hanneman is also more fragile, slower and has lower charm than Dorothea -  and she isn't even particularly amazing as a mage. Add in how much male mages are screwed over in this game and it's easy to see why Hanneman gets consigned to the bench pretty quickly. Normally, he'd go either Warlock or Dark Knight. I think Warlock is slightly better for him overall, and what tips it is two charges of Meteor rather than one in Dark Knight. Warlock also nets him 8 charges of Thoron, one of the best spells in the game. The Magic Bow+, however, is fairly comparable to Thoron (Thoron has +1 Mt, +10 Crit, -2 Wt in comparison). But when the Magic Bow+ is paired with Hunter's Volley, it machines through nearly everybody. On my CF playthrough Rhea and a couple of Dark Knights in Ch. 17 were the only units in the whole game that couldn't get ORKO'd by Hanneman. And unlike most nukes in the game (Swift Strikes Sylvain, Lysithea etc.) Hanneman strikes the perfect balance between having enough uses for the build to be consistently viable, and being able to hit up to four spaces. See below for Hanneman ORKOing Dimitri. 

IMG_3924.HEIC

There are some costs to the build, however. Sniper fixes some of Hanneman's stat issues (like poor Str) but he still won't take a hit, not that you should be expecting him to. Hanneman's Strength was fixed enough for him to be dealing Phys damage to non-armours with a Mini Bow+ (he uses Inexhaustible just fine as well). However, before B Rank Bows Hanneman is useless without Magic. He dealt zero damage with a Steel Bow against the rampaging villagers in Remire. Magic Bow benefits from CAs and more uses, so overall it's a better choice than Thoron I think, but Hanneman is also still unlikely to ORKO without Hunter's Volley, meaning that Hanneman doesn't start becoming a machine before Ch. 14 or so (and ideally he gets both Hit +20 and Fiendish Blow before then too).

Other potential candidates for this build, like Hubert and Mercedes, would have to work even harder at getting there; Hanneman arrives with C+ Bows and a boon in Bows but even then it's a labour to get him to B so he can start using Magic Bows. Maddening early game can punish you for training your mages in bows, but it's an extremely rewarding build to get in the end.

 

Special shout-out goes to Flayn, who I put in Pegasus Knight so that she could train her Lance rank up to A for Frozen Lance, but then couldn't be bothered to do that before Ch. 11, so I made her wander about Triangle Attacking everybody for no reason.

Edited June 14, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[Dark Holy Elf]

Nifty! Definitely going to have to try that Hanneman build at some point. How do you feel he compares to generic physical snipers like Shamir, etc.?

I also second your feelings about Trickster. It's a class I thought would be cool based on CS but it turns out if you take away Fetters of Dromi from it (and you should) and let it compete against other units who have their own (admittedly inferior) movement skills like Reposition, it's kinda bleh.

[Anathaco]

My personal favourite was my SS Cyril build. This was purely for the meme, but I ran him as my dedicated Bolt Axe Wyvern. His magic stat is surprisingly decent, plus his high speed + good strength lets him double consistently, and he has great Dex to hit consistently as well. 
Definitely wouldn’t recommend it in any kind of optimal run, but it was super effective once it got up and running (around the Bridge of Myrddin). Plus he can always switch to bows or axes to hit high res units.

[haarhaarhaar]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Nifty! Definitely going to have to try that Hanneman build at some point. How do you feel he compares to generic physical snipers like Shamir, etc.?

Sniper is still a great class even on low-Str physical builds like with Ignatz, and obviously characters like Shamir are built for Sniper so do great in it, but Hanneman is better than all of them. I normally don't bring more than one Sniper into an endgame team, and Hanneman beats the other Snipers I've had because of a few reasons.

1. Magic Bow+ is one of only a couple of bows in the game that can hit 3 spaces without CAs/class skills, which means that Hunter's Volley can hit from 4 spaces (which is the Sniper's max range, and you can only otherwise hit twice from that range with a Longbow or Failnaught). 

2. The fact that Res stats still remain middling to low for most Maddening enemies means that Magic Bow's output is consistently high. There aren't many high-Mt bows (especially on Black Eagles routes) which means that sometimes Hunter's Volley has to rely on the crit to get the kill. Hanneman is just a bit more surefire (his Mag and Dex weren't as good as my other mages and bow users respectively, but with a decent battalion he was still reliably getting kills where they weren't).

3. Hanneman developed a unique and unexpected niche fighting monsters. When I started his build I ran him through Dark Mage without really thinking about it, but as a Sniper it means that  he could delete an entire bar of health for a monster with Hunter's Volley (without counter mostly) and then Poison Strike chips on the next bar. In theory your other male snipers can do that too, but given how tough some monsters are on Maddening and how easy it was to run Hanneman through Dark Mage, I think he's best placed to do that.

However, Hanneman's other CAs aren't all that special (Schism Shot and Ward Arrow have the same stats, so the only reason to run the latter over the former is in a mage-heavy map like CF Ch.16, and even then Hanneman is still capable of outright killing mages with HV so they're pointless). And Shamir saw use as a sniper who could fight back (Hanneman cannot be allowed in range of Falcon Knights and the like, although he can kill them on Player Phase). But yeah, Hanneman edges it for me.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also second your feelings about Trickster. It's a class I thought would be cool based on CS but it turns out if you take away Fetters of Dromi from it (and you should) and let it compete against other units who have their own (admittedly inferior) movement skills like Reposition, it's kinda bleh.

In theory War Monk ought to be worse, but weirdly this run saw me love War Monk (I only used it with Byleth on the way to a Fists build, which is probably why) and hate Trickster. Duelist's Blow has remarkably little use - if you're doing your Player Phase right, then units who get Duelist's Blow shouldn't be taking enemy counters anyway because they're getting the kill or hitting from range. And obviously it just takes up a skill slot on Enemy Phase. Foul Play was fun though, and although it would be game-breaking if it weren't class-locked, I wish anyone could get it.

27 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

My personal favourite was my SS Cyril build. This was purely for the meme, but I ran him as my dedicated Bolt Axe Wyvern. His magic stat is surprisingly decent, plus his high speed + good strength lets him double consistently, and he has great Dex to hit consistently as well. 
Definitely wouldn’t recommend it in any kind of optimal run, but it was super effective once it got up and running (around the Bridge of Myrddin). Plus he can always switch to bows or axes to hit high res units

I actually ended up giving Edelgard a Bolt Axe+ in the lategame with the same thoughts. I didn't count it as a mixed build because I made zero effort to optimise her for it, but she was doubling often too (and Wt -5 meant she didn't suffer any penalties for using it), and the magic hit formula actually helps her hit rate a bit - Bolt Axe+ ended up being more accurate than any other ranged option she had barring a Hand Axe+. Of course, her hit is still shaky, but Bolt Axe+ was definitely capable of getting the kill. Did you do anything to optimise Cyril for Bolt Axe?

Edited June 14, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[lenticular]

Some suff I've run a various times in the past, with varying degrees of seriousness and commitment:

Sniper Mercedes: Very strong and fun to use when she actually got going, but was a bit of a slog to get there. On the other hand, I did just put her through fighter -> archer -> sniper since I was mostly messing around on that run, and that's not what I'd do if I was trying to play optimally. Definitely a viable build for her.

Fortress Knight Flayn: Surprisingly not terrible. Getting past her weakness in heavy armor is a pain but once you do, you end up with a unit with Fortress Knight level def and Flayn level res, making her a surprisingly competent mixed tank. She can also dish out some impressive damage with a bolt axe. In no way recommended for a serious run, since the result isn't worth the investment, but was very fun to play around with.

Sword-using Bishop Caspar: This isn't as bad as you think it is. It's actually worse. Don't do this. It's not strong, it's not interesting, it's not fun.

Trickster Manuela: I had a somewhat better impression of this, possibly because I did stick with it until I got warp. I think of it as being like an assassin giving up swordfaire for warp and silence, which I'm happy to do because I like warp and silence.

Holy Knight Ingrid: This worked way better for me than it had any right to. I wasn't really paying attention, but I can only assume my Ingrid was severely RNG blessed on that run, because she was wrecking face with both lance and magic. Nothing that has physic, canto and move 7 can ever be bad, though.

Dark Flier Ingrid: Was significantly less effective than when I ran her as Holy Knight, so if that run wasn't RNG blessed then this one was RNG cursed. She still did fine. Flying physic users are still great, thoron and frozen lance are both still good, and she's definively usable this way without too much effort, but it wasn't anything more than fine.

Holy Knight Bernadetta: I wanted to play around with her good spell list. Pass + Rescue seems great on paper but her bad magic growths meant I wasn't getting enough range on it to be useful. And obviously, she's much worse as a physical attacker in a class that doesn't have lance- or bowfaire.

Dark Knight Lorenz: Pretty standard stuff. Frozen lance is good. Having recover on a unit bulky enough to survive a hit and with 7 move is good. He didn't wow me, but I feel this is probably his best build.

War Cleric Catherine: Only a mixed build in the most technical sense. Recover will occasionally come in useful and pneuma gale can sometimes give you range on something you couldn't otherwise reach, but obviously the main reason for this was to give her access to fistfaire. And she is good at punching things.

Mortal Savant Dorothea: Meh. She's better in a magic class.

Mortal Savant Felix: Meh. He's better in a physical class.

Bow Knight Linhardt: You can get something vaguely usable out of him eventually, but there's not a whole lot of point to it. Other characters do a much better job of being magical archers.

Dark Knight Hilda: Bolting is nice, but so not worth the effort of doing this. Especially since Constance exists now.

[haarhaarhaar]

47 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Mortal Savant Felix: Meh. He's better in a physical class.

Yeah this is one of the only mixed builds I'd tried before this run, and it was disappointing. Catherine actually does slightly better as a Mortal Savant (but still not worth it for her)

48 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Dark Knight Lorenz: Pretty standard stuff. Frozen lance is good. Having recover on a unit bulky enough to survive a hit and with 7 move is good. He didn't wow me, but I feel this is probably his best build.

Yeah I think you're right - Lorenz isn't quite as powerful with Frozen Lance as most of its other users, but is a bit bulkier. I imagine similar to Hubert, it's a toss-up between Paladin and Dark Knight, and Dark Knight edges it for utility.

54 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Sniper Mercedes: Very strong and fun to use when she actually got going, but was a bit of a slog to get there. On the other hand, I did just put her through fighter -> archer -> sniper since I was mostly messing around on that run, and that's not what I'd do if I was trying to play optimally. Definitely a viable build for her.

Am thinking of doing this for my upcoming BL run - perhaps running her through mage > valkyrie > archer > sniper. Since AM gets every good bow in the game, I figure Mercedes can have Tathlum Bow too and no one else will miss it.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

War Cleric Catherine: Only a mixed build in the most technical sense. Recover will occasionally come in useful and pneuma gale can sometimes give you range on something you couldn't otherwise reach, but obviously the main reason for this was to give her access to fistfaire. And she is good at punching things.

Yeah am thinking of ending up in War Cleric for Catherine - she can grab Death Blow to prepare and perhaps spend time in Swordmaster/Assassin for the growths.

[Anathaco]

7 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I actually ended up giving Edelgard a Bolt Axe+ in the lategame with the same thoughts. I didn't count it as a mixed build because I made zero effort to optimise her for it, but she was doubling often too (and Wt -5 meant she didn't suffer any penalties for using it), and the magic hit formula actually helps her hit rate a bit - Bolt Axe+ ended up being more accurate than any other ranged option she had barring a Hand Axe+. Of course, her hit is still shaky, but Bolt Axe+ was definitely capable of getting the kill. Did you do anything to optimise Cyril for Bolt Axe?

I taught him in reason so I could get fiendish blow off of mage (I ended up using the broken weapon strat to get him to mastery) plus some stat boosters in magic. I can’t remember how many of those I gave him, but I don’t think it was too many, considering most of my gardening that run went to Ferdinand for more speed (I wanted ultimate dodge tank Ferdinand), and I’m pretty sure a few weeks went towards defence boosters for Great Knight Raphael.

Damn that run was a meme.

[Dark Holy Elf]

18 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Sniper is still a great class even on low-Str physical builds like with Ignatz, and obviously characters like Shamir are built for Sniper so do great in it, but Hanneman is better than all of them. I normally don't bring more than one Sniper into an endgame team, and Hanneman beats the other Snipers I've had because of a few reasons.

1. Magic Bow+ is one of only a couple of bows in the game that can hit 3 spaces without CAs/class skills, which means that Hunter's Volley can hit from 4 spaces (which is the Sniper's max range, and you can only otherwise hit twice from that range with a Longbow or Failnaught). 

Hunter's Volley can hit at range 4 with any bow; combat arts don't care about extended bow range from weapons. That said it takes a significant hit penalty to do so (-50!). Since enemy magic evade is usually lower than their physical evade (not that the game shows you this stat for some reason...), that probably helps this build, though it is a bit tricky to get both Hit+20% and Fiendish Blow without notably delaying the start on Hunter's Volley. Or at least that's how it is for my playstyle. I really want to try this build out though, it does seem neat. The Magic Bow is the one magic weapon I haven't really toyed with yet.

18 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

In theory War Monk ought to be worse, but weirdly this run saw me love War Monk (I only used it with Byleth on the way to a Fists build, which is probably why) and hate Trickster.

I've seen the sentiment that War Monk is worse a few times but I definitely disagree... and this is coming from someone who doesn't think that highly of gauntlets even. Apart from any advantages gauntlets have over swords (and I do agree they are better overall), War Monk has an extra point of move, a good mastery ability that can actually be taken out of the job (Brawl Avo +20 is really good because it stacks with Brawl Prowess' high avoid boosts), actually gets a -faire skill, and opens up new options for some characters (especially Catherine and FByleth). Trickster really just has Foul Play, and while that's great, it's hamstrung by being locked to an otherwise weak class.

[eclipse]

On 6/14/2020 at 3:40 AM, lenticular said:

Sword-using Bishop Caspar: This isn't as bad as you think it is. It's actually worse. Don't do this. It's not strong, it's not interesting, it's not fun.

I did one worse, and made Caspar a dancer.

THE GOOD: I could throw him on the front lines and he'd either dodge or absorb an attack.  Also worked as front-line healer with Recover.  Levin Sword wasn't pretty, but it was better than nothing.

THE BAD: Awful Reason list, generic Faith list, no unique sword arts, wasn't going to kill anything on his own.

THE VERDICT: There's better dancer options.  Unless you want an eternal chip unit, or think that Caspar looks cool in that outfit, don't do it.

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I've seen the sentiment that War Monk is worse a few times but I definitely disagree... and this is coming from someone who doesn't think that highly of gauntlets even. Apart from any advantages gauntlets have over swords (and I do agree they are better overall), War Monk has an extra point of move, a good mastery ability that can actually be taken out of the job (Brawl Avo +20 is really good because it stacks with Brawl Prowess' high avoid boosts), actually gets a -faire skill, and opens up new options for some characters (especially Catherine and FByleth). Trickster really just has Foul Play, and while that's great, it's hamstrung by being locked to an otherwise weak class.

I think that in a direct comparison, War Monk/Cleric is probably the better of the two, but it comes across as more underwhelming for two reasons. First is the competition with other classes. For gauntlet users who might end up in War Monk/Cleric, the other choices are going to be Grappler and War Master, whcih are great classes. For sword users, Trickster is going to be in competition with Assassin, Swordmaster and Mortal Savant, which are less great.

The second reason is that there are way more characters who naturally fit into Trickster than into War Monk/Cleric. Eight different characters have a strength or budding talent in both swords and faith: Byleth, Dorothea, Lysithea, Marianne, Manuela, Yuri, Balthus, and Anna. Then for faith and gauntlets, Balthus and Byleth are the only characters in the game who are good at both. Obviously, you don't need both strengths to make a build work, but there's generally less incentive to try them.

 

[Barren]

I've tried Dark Flier Ingrid on my GD play through. I had to class her as a Warlock so she can a buff in her magic and defense stat. With Bowbreaker along with fiendish blow and alert stance she did good in baiting in enemies and getting a stat buff thanks to transmute from enemy mages though that ability came through as situational to me.

Warlock Hilda seems fun as well with 2x of black magic as well as black tomefaire.  She gets Thoron and Bolting for some juicy long range attacks. 

War Cleric Catherine seems be fine as a front liner or guard adjutant. I've also done War Cleric Constance and while OHKO'ing low HP enemies with Mystic Blow or using Aura Knuckles was fun, she seems to be a one trick pony here.

I never tried Holy Knight Ingrid though with I would think Dark Flier would probably be a better choice since flying beats riding and she can still use physic all the same. I've also seen Holy Knight Dimitri if you want him to function as a bulky healer. He also gets Aura too but his low magic growth isn't really worth it for him to use offensive magic to begin with. Even if Aura has a good critical hit chance, 20% I think.

There's Dark Knight Sylvain which could work because he could function as a dodge tank with black magic and he at least has a decent spell list. Though he's more leaned towards physical classes than magic so getting him to be at least a mixed attacker can be tough pending on RNG

I've tried Holy Knight Bernie. She has rescue and physic which is nice but her magic growth is bad unless you keep feeding her magic stat boosting items if you're that determined. At least Holy Knight Marianne can use white tomefaire and aura for good damage but 3 uses of it is really limiting. She her running around with a sword and sword avoid with blutgang and levin sword was fun. Giving her frozen lance was also a nice option too along with fiendish blow and dex +4 for more added damage

[haarhaarhaar]

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hunter's Volley can hit at range 4 with any bow; combat arts don't care about extended bow range from weapons.

My mistake - was thinking of not being able to hit 5 spaces as a Sniper and got confused. Magic Bow can hit from 4 spaces without a CA is what I should have said - and like you note about enemy units' magical evasion, your Sniper can still hit consistently provided they have Hit +20 and/or a good battalion. Regardless, 4 passive range is helpful for linked attacks, so there is some benefit there.

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Obviously, you don't need both strengths to make a build work, but there's generally less incentive to try them.

In Awakening, Trickster and War Monk were quite similar in function to what they are in 3H. But unlike 3H, the niche that both provided in Awakening was fairly unique, and everyone who could access the class got enough magic/magic growths to make staves at least a useful support, even though the units weren't the best offensively.

But in 3H, swords are usable in every class - so the incentive to turn magic-oriented units into Tricksters is quite low anyway. As for physical units, Trickster doesn't help their magic enough to make them either a serious threat or a support to rival your actual mages, meaning they're mostly there for growths that aren't significantly better than Assassin's (which is otherwise a better class for sword users anyway). In fairness, Physic and Warp are useful wherever they can be used, 

In contrast, mages can't use gauntlets (not that many would want to, but Aura Knuckles aren't bad at all), women can't use other gauntlet-oriented classes (and some would definitely want to), and as mentioned above War Monk provides a useful mastery skill for physical units, as well as some bulk and a Faire skill. Gauntlet users should still prefer Grappler to end up in, but there's actually more incentive overall for the people who might want War Monk to go WM than there is for people who are suited to Trickster to go Trickster.

15 minutes ago, Barren said:

There's Dark Knight Sylvain which could work because he could function as a dodge tank with black magic and he at least has a decent spell list. Though he's more leaned towards physical classes than magic so getting him to be at least a mixed attacker can be tough pending on RNG

Despite his Reason budding talent, I've heard not-so-good things about Dark Knight Sylvain, basically along the lines of "you're still gonna be spamming Swift Strikes as a Dark Knight, but you won't have the Lancefaire". Across Reason and Faith it appears like his spells have a lot of utility, but I'm not convinced that his magic would hit harder than a Short Spear. Actually they might do with the faire skill, but it's definitely a concern. I wonder if there's any point in making Sylvain a hybrid when Sylvain is so good in physical classes. 

 

[Barren]

4 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Despite his Reason budding talent, I've heard not-so-good things about Dark Knight Sylvain, basically along the lines of "you're still gonna be spamming Swift Strikes as a Dark Knight, but you won't have the Lancefaire". Across Reason and Faith it appears like his spells have a lot of utility, but I'm not convinced that his magic would hit harder than a Short Spear. Actually they might do with the faire skill, but it's definitely a concern. I wonder if there's any point in making Sylvain a hybrid when Sylvain is so good in physical classes. 

 

Yea that's my thing too. If his growths in magic was a little better (maybe even speed which is at 50% and that is pretty good), then perhaps he could pull it off. But yea, Paladin Sylvain inflicting more damage then running off or Wyvern Lord Sylvain doing a fly hit and run with Swift Strikes seems to be more optimal than DK Sylvain. While somewhat off topic, I've always wondered if Wyvern Lord Sylvain is really better than Paladin Sylvain because Swift Strikes with Lancefaire does more damage than Wyvern Lord Sylvain since Paladins have Lancefaire as a class skill, making the strength class modifier for Paladin an effective +7 as opposed to the Wyvern Lord's +4

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

But in 3H, swords are usable in every class - so the incentive to turn magic-oriented units into Tricksters is quite low anyway. As for physical units, Trickster doesn't help their magic enough to make them either a serious threat or a support to rival your actual mages, meaning they're mostly there for growths that aren't significantly better than Assassin's (which is otherwise a better class for sword users anyway). In fairness, Physic and Warp are useful wherever they can be used, 

That's fair. I generally don't like to use weapons that a class doesn't get bonus skill proficiencies in, because it makes training that much more of a pain. In the case of magic-oriented units, most of them are going to want a levin sword, which is only a C requirement and very achievable for anyone in any class. There is still the possibility of soulblade/hexblade with a higher requirement sword, but the repair costs for anything above a silver sword would get old fast. Even so, I do think that the skill proficiency bonus is a relevant concern, albeit not a large one.

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

In contrast, mages can't use gauntlets (not that many would want to, but Aura Knuckles aren't bad at all), women can't use other gauntlet-oriented classes (and some would definitely want to), and as mentioned above War Monk provides a useful mastery skill for physical units, as well as some bulk and a Faire skill. Gauntlet users should still prefer Grappler to end up in, but there's actually more incentive overall for the people who might want War Monk to go WM than there is for people who are suited to Trickster to go Trickster.

I don't really see the attraction for most male gauntlet users to spend time mastering War Monk. Brawl Avoid +20 is a decent skill, for sure, but there aren't very many circumstances where I'd prioritise it over Fierce Iron Fist or Quick Riposte, and I wouldn't expect to be able to hit all three without either NG+ or some serious grinding. Unless I'm looking to make use of either pneuma gale or the spell utility, I can only think of niche circumstances where I'd bother. (This is a lie, of course. I run all sorts of weird nonsense, so would definitely run War Monk on all sorts of characters for even the most tenuous reason.)

For female characters, War Cleric definitely has much more to offer. It's pretty self-evidently the best class available for any female character looking to run a gauntlets build. I'm almost tempted to say that my rating of the classes is War Cleric > Trickster > War Monk. I don't think I'm quite going to go that far, but I will say this instead: War Monk and Trickster are both pretty bad, and trying to figure out which one is worse is mostly just splitting hairs. War Cleric, on the other hand, is an actually good class.

[samthedigital]

9 hours ago, eclipse said:

THE VERDICT: There's better dancer options.  Unless you want an eternal chip unit, or think that Caspar looks cool in that outfit, don't do it.

Alternatively he's a good option if you don't have any other units that you want to 'relegate' to the dancer role. I think that Caspar can be a decent fit in an in-house only run as an example; I don't use my dancer for much besides dancing anyway.

[haarhaarhaar]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I don't really see the attraction for most male gauntlet users to spend time mastering War Monk. Brawl Avoid +20 is a decent skill, for sure, but there aren't very many circumstances where I'd prioritise it over Fierce Iron Fist or Quick Riposte, and I wouldn't expect to be able to hit all three without either NG+ or some serious grinding.

Getting C Faith for a brawler apart from Byleth/Balthus (the minimum rank to get the opportunity to class change) isn't an insignificant hurdle, but I think is achievable even on NG. And yeah, Quick Riposte and Fierce Iron Fist are amazing as well, and getting all three requires 500 Class Exp after Lv 20, which as you say is quite a tough ask. But it's mainly a question of resources allocation/what sacrifices you'll make to get the build. I did this exact build with Byleth on CF, and Byleth got Quick Riposte before the end of Ch. 16, having already gone through WM and Grappler.

In my case, I made Byleth use a Knowledge Gem (and it was the only one I had at the time) whenever I deployed him as a War Monk in order to get him out of that class faster, and I also got every paralogue in the game (so quite a lot of Byleth deployment). And it was worth it - Byleth had avoidance over 90 for the endgame chapters without an Evasion Ring, and from the moment he mastered WM (Chapter 11 or so) he became my premier dodge tank.

Brawl Avo +20 is only needed if you actually want your gauntlets user to be a dodge tank - obviously you can make Master class fliers or your dancer get higher avoidance if you wanted a dodge tank otherwise. But I can't think of any unit in the game that uses Fistbreaker/has advantage against gauntlet users, which means that Byleth's dodge tanking pretty much worked constantly (mages/falcon knights got lucky hits occasionally but that's about it). It's probably only one gauntlet user that's getting it per run, but for that unit at least I would even consider sacrificing Grappler mastery to get Brawl Avo +20. 

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

War Monk and Trickster are both pretty bad, and trying to figure out which one is worse is mostly just splitting hairs

Ultimately yeah, this. 

6 hours ago, Barren said:

Wyvern Lord Sylvain is really better than Paladin Sylvain because Swift Strikes with Lancefaire does more damage than Wyvern Lord Sylvain since Paladins have Lancefaire as a class skill, making the strength class modifier for Paladin an effective +7 as opposed to the Wyvern Lord's +4

It's probably situational. Sylvain will have better speed/avoid and probably better base strength as a WL, as well as unmitigated movement. Paladin has easier access to Mv +1, better Res and Lancefaire (so in theory better output for Swift Strikes). Paladin is hardly bad for Sylvain, although Wyvern Lord probably edges it on balance because fliers are just so amazing in this game. It'll really depend on context though.

[eclipse]

55 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Alternatively he's a good option if you don't have any other units that you want to 'relegate' to the dancer role. I think that Caspar can be a decent fit in an in-house only run as an example; I don't use my dancer for much besides dancing anyway.

That applies to everyone, though.

[samthedigital]

18 minutes ago, eclipse said:

That applies to everyone, though.

The best dancer is usually the least useful unit otherwise by process of elimination, so it is only true to an extent. It also means that Caspar is not a bad choice as a dancer even if it applies to everyone.

Edited June 16, 2020 by samthedigital

[eclipse]

2 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The best dancer is usually the least useful unit otherwise by process of elimination, so it is only true to an extent. It also means that Caspar is not a bad choise as a dancer even if it applies to everyone.

I think Caspar does have a place, just as everyone else in BE does (in other words, the least-used unit can be the dancer, since there's a niche for everyone).  I feel like the other two houses have characters that better fall under that umbrella, but this isn't the topic to go into such details.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Aura Knuckles aren't bad at all

I would disagree - having a pool of users that mostly have magic stats that are far lower than their strength means there's no real niche for them, given that against most enemies, I'd expect training gauntlets to do more damage. Their case ain't helped by the fact that the Aura Knuchles are A rank.

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

For female characters, War Cleric definitely has much more to offer. It's pretty self-evidently the best class available for any female character looking to run a gauntlets build. I'm almost tempted to say that my rating of the classes is War Cleric > Trickster > War Monk. I don't think I'm quite going to go that far, but I will say this instead: War Monk and Trickster are both pretty bad, and trying to figure out which one is worse is mostly just splitting hairs. War Cleric, on the other hand, is an actually good class.

Unfortunately, being the best for that purpose does not mean much when it sucks. And even if by some miracle War Cleric didn't suck harder than SSB Link's recovery, the conflicting requirements ensure I'd keep females as far away from it as humanly possible. Not helping matters is that there are literally only two females that actually have a boon in brawling...

Edited June 16, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree - having a pool of users that mostly have magic stats that are far lower than their strength means there's no real niche for them, given that against most enemies, I'd expect training gauntlets to do more damage. Their case ain't helped by the fact that the Aura Knuchles are A rank.

I agree that they are niche, in the same way that I wouldn't normally give Magic Bow to any and all of my archers. But that doesn't make them bad - pretty much any natural candidate for War Monk/Cleric appreciates them, and you get surprisingly good results from giving them to magic-oriented units who could feasibly class into War Monk/Cleric.

I also agree that the A Brawling requirement is very high, higher than other magic weapon requirements, but no one who isn't going to be using fists primarily is going into War Monk (or Grappler) anyway, and thus will get to A rank sooner or later. And if I'm for any reason putting in the effort of training a magic-oriented unit for fists, they're going to get at least A+ and be using Aura Knuckles. I'm happy to agree that the cost for them is high, and your Raphaels and Caspars won't want it, but that alone isn't reason to write them off.  

I'd say Aura Knuckles is roughly as good as other magic weapons - you might have one or two units in an endgame party who use a Levin Sword or a Bolt Axe, but that doesn't mean all your sword/axe users want magic weapons, or that they're better than physical options. Unless you've specifically planned your build around them (which is where you get the best results) these other magic weapons are supposed to only provide range boosts and a different kind of attack (different hit formula, different evasion stat, targeting resistance and not defence). Aura Knuckles may not give that same range boost, but it makes up for it with the chance to be a magic attack that hits four times (no other magic can do that). And the unit that uses them doesn't have to have an amazing magic stat to get good usage out of them (i.e. Byleth) although units who do have an amazing magic stat are also amazing with them (i.e. Constance). Watch what they do to monsters with Aura Knuckles, for example - there's at least one niche there. Brawlers traditionally struggle against armours - there's another niche. To borrow @eclipse's phrasing above, "there's a niche for everyone."

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I've really enjoyed using "mixed builds" thus far. Here's how I'd rank what I've done.

Hubert: A

Spoiler

Soldier -> Cavalier-> Paladin -> Bow Knight

He was just a delight to use. Arrow of Indra is great; in its + form, it gives Hubert an attacking range of 11, with Faire, on a Paladin. No item or ability required. As a Bow Knight, he can get work done with the Magic Bow. If I were making any changes, I'd master Mage for Fiendish Blow, then get on the horse.

Annette: A+

Spoiler

Monk -> Mage -> Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Lord

She has a ton of options at her disposal: Bolt Axe+ gives 11 attacking range, Lightning Axe lets her one-shot armors (among other enemies), while Crusher is solid for melee and enemy phase. Also, she can equip Rally Speed for a Str/Spd rally that goes great with her mobility.

Catherine: D+

Spoiler

Swordmaster -> Mage -> Mortal Savant

It's... kinda fun? MS has better movement than Swordmaster, and she gets a bunch of fire spells. Her magic output isn't that great, though, and her best mobility comes from either flying, or going Assassin. I can't recommend this to anyone, but it's not unusable or anything.

Lysithea: B+

Spoiler

Myrmidon -> Thief -> Assassin -> Mortal Savant

With Soulblade, Lysithea is one-shotting foes with weapons like Steel Sword+ or the Devil Sword. She can also comfortably wield Levin Swords, or combine Soulblade with effective weaponry (Rapier, Armorslayer). Still, she's missing out on her incredible magic list - Mortal Savant restores this to her, but I had the most fun using her in Assassin.

Bernadetta: B

Spoiler

Monk -> Mage -> Warlock -> Dark Knight

Splendid spell list, poor magic growth rate. Still, she can activate her personal skill to boost magic too, and she'll be kinda fast for a mage. Thoron is great for the range, she has high-crit ice spells, and Rescue and Physic offer neat support. Also she can still use lances, if you really want. She was something of a "mirror image" to Hubert on my CF playthrough.

Anyway, those aren't all the "mixed units" I've gone for. Nor will they be my last - my current SS playthrough includes Dark Mage Ferdinand and Dorothiefa, among others. I'll let you know how they turn out!

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I agree that they are niche, in the same way that I wouldn't normally give Magic Bow to any and all of my archers. But that doesn't make them bad - pretty much any natural candidate for War Monk/Cleric appreciates them, and you get surprisingly good results from giving them to magic-oriented units who could feasibly class into War Monk/Cleric.

I also agree that the A Brawling requirement is very high, higher than other magic weapon requirements, but no one who isn't going to be using fists primarily is going into War Monk (or Grappler) anyway, and thus will get to A rank sooner or later. And if I'm for any reason putting in the effort of training a magic-oriented unit for fists, they're going to get at least A+ and be using Aura Knuckles. I'm happy to agree that the cost for them is high, and your Raphaels and Caspars won't want it, but that alone isn't reason to write them off.  

I'd say Aura Knuckles is roughly as good as other magic weapons - you might have one or two units in an endgame party who use a Levin Sword or a Bolt Axe, but that doesn't mean all your sword/axe users want magic weapons, or that they're better than physical options. Unless you've specifically planned your build around them (which is where you get the best results) these other magic weapons are supposed to only provide range boosts and a different kind of attack (different hit formula, different evasion stat, targeting resistance and not defence). Aura Knuckles may not give that same range boost, but it makes up for it with the chance to be a magic attack that hits four times (no other magic can do that). And the unit that uses them doesn't have to have an amazing magic stat to get good usage out of them (i.e. Byleth) although units who do have an amazing magic stat are also amazing with them (i.e. Constance). Watch what they do to monsters with Aura Knuckles, for example - there's at least one niche there. Brawlers traditionally struggle against armours - there's another niche. To borrow @eclipse's phrasing above, "there's a niche for everyone."

Only two characters have an easy time getting into War Monk, and I would expect both to have their magic lagging behind their strength by a lot, since they start with twice as much strength as they do magic.

On the contrary, I'd argue the high cost and underwhelming performance are good reasons for me to write them off as the worst weapon in the game. I would even go so far as to consider them one of the worst weapons in the series.

"There's a niche for everyone" my left foot. Unless you seriously believe units like Wendy or weapons like PoR's Bolt Axe aren't useless. Getting back to the Aura Knuckles, about the only good thing that can be said about them is that they can quadruple hit... on offense. Not that that makes up for everything else, because it doesn't. Anti-armor? I'd likely do more damage with a Hammer or Armorslayer. Monsters? Tend to be rare, and some of the most threatening ones have higher resistance than defense.

[haarhaarhaar]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the contrary, I'd argue the high cost and underwhelming performance are good reasons for me to write them off as the worst weapon in the game. I would even go so far as to consider them one of the worst weapons in the series.

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree then. For what it's worth, Venin weapons are the least useful weapons in the game IMO, though of course this is now an obvious tangent. 

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

"There's a niche for everyone" my left foot. Unless you seriously believe units like Wendy or weapons like PoR's Bolt Axe aren't useless. Getting back to the Aura Knuckles, about the only good thing that can be said about them is that they can quadruple hit... on offense. Not that that makes up for everything else, because it doesn't. Anti-armor? I'd likely do more damage with a Hammer or Armorslayer. Monsters? Tend to be rare, and some of the most threatening ones have higher resistance than defense.

If you don't want to use it that's your choice - 3H is quite good about giving you different ways to accomplish the same objectives. And I'm happy to agree that some weapons/units have less utility than others - I never claimed to praise Aura Knuckles for their accessibility, for example. Doesn't make them useless. 

[haarhaarhaar]

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Lysithea: B+

I haven't tried out Lysithea in a swords-only build before - this is definitely worth investigating!

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Annette: A+

Am gonna try this out for my next run - did she actually have an enemy phase? Did you stick Alert Stance on her or was she able to survive things without it?