Mixed Builds - A Thread

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I haven't tried out Lysithea in a swords-only build before - this is definitely worth investigating!

She has better movement, speed, and range-of-attack than the infantry magic classes, but misses out on offensive spells and Faith support. It's fun to try out, even if it's not her best build.

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Am gonna try this out for my next run - did she actually have an enemy phase? Did you stick Alert Stance on her or was she able to survive things without it?

I didn't use Alert Stance on Annette - it only activates from Waiting, so it's incompatible with Rallying or using Lightning Axe. I generally had her "fly in, attack, fly back to safety". She might be able to work on enemy phase with Bolt Axe and/or Crusher, but her defenses and attack speed are rather middling. 

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

We're probably gonna have to agree to disagree then. For what it's worth, Venin weapons are the least useful weapons in the game IMO, though of course this is now an obvious tangent. 

I must agree that venin weapons also have accessibility issues. However, I don’t think they have nearly as many hurdles in terms of getting to make good use of them as the Aura Knuckles do. There’s also the fact that with the DLC, one paralogue gives me some as drops.

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

If you don't want to use it that's your choice - 3H is quite good about giving you different ways to accomplish the same objectives. And I'm happy to agree that some weapons/units have less utility than others - I never claimed to praise Aura Knuckles for their accessibility, for example. Doesn't make them useless. 

I’d say they’re useless when they have pretty much nothing going for them AND force me to go completely out of my way to use them.

[haarhaarhaar]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

However, I don’t think they have nearly as many hurdles in terms of getting to make good use of them as the Aura Knuckles do. There’s also the fact that with the DLC, one paralogue gives me some as drops.

If we're solely talking accessibility, Aura Knuckles are on the whole easier to obtain. They require A+ prof level to forge as opposed to C+ for venin weapons, but Arcane Crystal is far more easily available than Venomstone.

Anna's paralogue does net you a couple of venin weapons fairly easily, but in my view you already have no need for poison by Ch. 9 on Maddening. I mean, you never 'need' poison, but venin weapons would do their best work in the early game, when you sometimes have to let enemies survive your player phase because you don't have enough firepower to kill them, and you don't have weapons better than iron (which is what a venin weapon is equivalent to). Accessibility aside, they also just seem pretty useless.

In contrast, Aura Knuckles require A rank fists to obtain, but I could actually see myself building a unit around it. I can't see a reason to put Venin weapons on anyone ever in an endgame, whereas I could envision building a magic-based fists user and them being in an endgame party. Again, not claiming Aura Knuckles are the best thing to have happened to FE, just that they aren't bad.

The theory at least checks out - assuming I plan it from the beginning of the run I could train any mage who doesn't have a weakness in brawling and they'd eventually get A+. I'd get them to B rank brawling through teaching/adjutant WEXP, and probably have them in magic classes up till B rank fists because every point of mag would help with this build. Once they get B rank brawling, I should have a good chance of certifying WM, at which point I'd stick a knowledge gem on them to get them to master War Monk ASAP, because Pneuma Gale turns every gauntlet into an OK spell (and WM only having some magic means I might need to conserve spell charges). Once that's done, they can relatively leisurely get A-rank fists, when Aura Knuckles kicks in. The average lategame mage we'll say has around 32-3 magic in the late game. With Mag+2 and Fiendish Blow that's 40 Mag, Aura Knuckles has 2 might, and you hit either twice or four times on Player Phase. Let's assume twice, and 84 raw attack (94 with WM's Fistfaire). Let's also assume you keep Lysithea as a true mage, say in Warlock, and for argument's sake she has 38 raw magic, Fiendish Blow, Mag+2, class Tomefaire and her own Tomefaire, and she's using Hades. That's still 74 raw attack (because Lysithea's pretty much never gonna double with Hades). Of course, the trade off is Aura Knuckles only has one range, and that is a big deal because it means the unit has to get in range, which could be dangerous or unfeasible. But in general, you should still be able to kill lots of things without counter, and WM's HP growths can give you enough bulk to take a hit. 

Are there other builds, lower in cost, that can also get kills? Yeah, definitely. Does this build have drawbacks? Sure. And I agree that Aura Knuckles aren't the most useful of weapons generally. But I brought them up in passing to explain why a mage might want to train gauntlets and go into War Monk, when they wouldn't otherwise for Trickster - they bring something that is at least pretty unique and fairly effective to your party, and War Monk gives those mages some much-needed avoidance, a magic combat art, and a Faire skill to boost what is essentially a brave spell. Which is why I said not bad at all.

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

She has better movement, speed, and range-of-attack than the infantry magic classes, but misses out on offensive spells and Faith support. It's fun to try out, even if it's not her best build.

I didn't use Alert Stance on Annette - it only activates from Waiting, so it's incompatible with Rallying or using Lightning Axe. I generally had her "fly in, attack, fly back to safety". She might be able to work on enemy phase with Bolt Axe and/or Crusher, but her defenses and attack speed are rather middling. 

Yeah that's gonna bite a little for Lysithea - if I sacrificed the Dancer cert and made her master Mortal Sav, she'd be a pretty dodge-tanky swordswoman, and Warding Blow could boost Soulblade a little. In fact, would it? I can't remember if Darting/Armored Blow do the same for Lance Jab/Armored Strike.

Makes sense with Annette - I'd rather she focused on damage output/being a rallybot than barely having an enemy phase.

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

If we're solely talking accessibility, Aura Knuckles are on the whole easier to obtain. They require A+ prof level to forge as opposed to C+ for venin weapons, but Arcane Crystal is far more easily available than Venomstone.

You only get a handful in the first part, and I might see those as better used for repairing Levin Swords. And they're not exactly cheap when you can buy them. That said, Venomstones being a luck of the draw thing is annoying.

On 6/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Anna's paralogue does net you a couple of venin weapons fairly easily, but in my view you already have no need for poison by Ch. 9 on Maddening. I mean, you never 'need' poison, but venin weapons would do their best work in the early game, when you sometimes have to let enemies survive your player phase because you don't have enough firepower to kill them, and you don't have weapons better than iron (which is what a venin weapon is equivalent to). Accessibility aside, they also just seem pretty useless.

For what it's worth, being iron lite isn't bad when in general, you probably don't want to be using heavy weapons.

On 6/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

In contrast, Aura Knuckles require A rank fists to obtain, but I could actually see myself building a unit around it. I can't see a reason to put Venin weapons on anyone ever in an endgame, whereas I could envision building a magic-based fists user and them being in an endgame party. Again, not claiming Aura Knuckles are the best thing to have happened to FE, just that they aren't bad.

I don't know about you, but personally, I'm put off by the fact that I would have to deliberately make an investment that doesn't even yield any profit, because mages can't equip gauntlets. Especially since War Monk only gets halved spell uses, which I find a dealbreaker when most units get some pretty valuable spells. So I cannot see how you can say "they aren't bad" when the opportunity cost is huge and I'm wasting a mage's potential.

On 6/17/2020 at 1:46 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

The theory at least checks out - assuming I plan it from the beginning of the run I could train any mage who doesn't have a weakness in brawling and they'd eventually get A+. I'd get them to B rank brawling through teaching/adjutant WEXP, and probably have them in magic classes up till B rank fists because every point of mag would help with this build. Once they get B rank brawling, I should have a good chance of certifying WM, at which point I'd stick a knowledge gem on them to get them to master War Monk ASAP, because Pneuma Gale turns every gauntlet into an OK spell (and WM only having some magic means I might need to conserve spell charges). Once that's done, they can relatively leisurely get A-rank fists, when Aura Knuckles kicks in. The average lategame mage we'll say has around 32-3 magic in the late game. With Mag+2 and Fiendish Blow that's 40 Mag, Aura Knuckles has 2 might, and you hit either twice or four times on Player Phase. Let's assume twice, and 84 raw attack (94 with WM's Fistfaire). Let's also assume you keep Lysithea as a true mage, say in Warlock, and for argument's sake she has 38 raw magic, Fiendish Blow, Mag+2, class Tomefaire and her own Tomefaire, and she's using Hades. That's still 74 raw attack (because Lysithea's pretty much never gonna double with Hades). Of course, the trade off is Aura Knuckles only has one range, and that is a big deal because it means the unit has to get in range, which could be dangerous or unfeasible. But in general, you should still be able to kill lots of things without counter, and WM's HP growths can give you enough bulk to take a hit. 

Working in theory is one thing. Working in practice is another thing entirely. And it doesn't change the fact that I have to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to go "oh yeah, War Monk and Aura Knuckles' use is X". Not helping is that they're not that accurate (and the magic hit formula doesn't much help with this), as magic weapons lose durability on whiffed attacks.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You only get a handful in the first part, and I might see those as better used for repairing Levin Swords. And they're not exactly cheap when you can buy them. That said, Venomstones being a luck of the draw thing is annoying.

Yep, it costs 4 Arcane Crystal to turn a Levin Sword into a Levin Sword+ and 4 Arcane Crystal to turn Steel Knuckles into Aura Knuckles, so there is competition. But you probably won't need more than one pair of Aura Knuckles per run, and if you really want to, the + upgrade can be delayed till Ch. 16 when you can buy Arcane Crystal, if necessary. Honestly, by Ch. 16 you shouldn't be having money troubles unless you only fight in chapter battles. And the build I described above probably won't be ready for Aura Knuckles till at least Ch.14-15 or so anyway - Arcane Crystal availability shouldn't be an issue IMO. 

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

For what it's worth, being iron lite isn't bad when in general, you probably don't want to be using heavy weapons.

Venin Lances, for example, have ten fewer uses than Iron Lances and weigh 1 point more, and there's no difference in Mt/Hit. Also bear in mind it's far easier to upgrade iron weapons than it is to upgrade venin weapons - four Venomstone is ridiculously hard to come by, you'd either have to feed lots of animals with high-grade food or get really lucky with Demonic Beasts.

Given that the earliest you're likely to get them is probably Ch. 9, I just don't know why you wouldn't keep an iron weapon (+) for normal combat and bring a steel/silver weapon for CA usage instead of bringing a venin weapon at all. They just aren't helpful when they do become accessible.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but personally, I'm put off by the fact that I would have to deliberately make an investment that doesn't even yield any profit, because mages can't equip gauntlets. Especially since War Monk only gets halved spell uses, which I find a dealbreaker when most units get some pretty valuable spells. So I cannot see how you can say "they aren't bad" when the opportunity cost is huge and I'm wasting a mage's potential

It's not that the investment yields no profit, it's that the investment yields no immediate profit. Dancer Marianne (or indeed any dancer) loves Mv +1, for example, but will spend a decent chunk of the game training Riding without it helping in the moment. There are any number of things in the game that don't give profit for a while but eventually are of good benefit - you're looking to the future, that's what a build plan is. It's not as if mages were missing anything by not being able to use gauntlets that aren't Aura Knuckles anyway - but their eventual offensive boost when they can use them would be amazing. 

As for War Monk, I've found that mages are particularly short-changed with spells like Thoron, siege tomes, and Warp (otherwise they have enough spell charges to do the requisite amount of chip damage/support). Obviously "some magic" is still a pain, and it is a sacrifice you're making for gauntlets, but as I've illustrated above, the rewards on attack are worth it. If you're worried about the potential cost, just choose a mage you weren't gonna use otherwise and who doesn't have a brawling weakness. You can still run as many full mages as you like per map - I'm not suggesting you make all of your mages War Monks, just one.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Working in theory is one thing. Working in practice is another thing entirely. And it doesn't change the fact that I have to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to go "oh yeah, War Monk and Aura Knuckles' use is X". Not helping is that they're not that accurate (and the magic hit formula doesn't much help with this), as magic weapons lose durability on whiffed attacks.

Sure, but you've given me no reason to think that this won't work in practice. What obstacles do you foresee to the theory I described above? I'm sorry this seems like an insane amount of mental hoops to you, but this is a game that encourages creative thinking in order to accomplish objectives. Examining all the tools at your disposal, and figuring out how to best utilise them is, I'd say, the mark of a good player. Besides, this is a thread explicitly about using hybrid classes and magic weapons to their full potential - I'm not sure why you're here if it's too much effort for you to think about.

As far as accuracy goes, Aura Knuckles+ has a better hit rate than all the other magic weapons in the game (and the same or better than most weapons in the game, unless they are iron/training weapons or swords). The magic hit formula ignores terrain bonuses and targets magical evasion, which is almost always lower on enemies than their physical evasion, so it definitely helps. Finally, losing durability on missed attacks is a fairly lame reason not to use magic weapons in general - this used to be the case for all weapons in other FE titles, and repairing in this game isn't much of a big deal anyway. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[Barren]

I actually tested out darting blow + battalion desperation on ingrid and from what I gathered it does indeed work as long as you're able to double attack your opponent. So I'm wondering if perhaps if for a Dark Flier build for her one could try Reason Level 5, Fiendish Blow, Darting Blow, Bowbreaker and Battalion Desperation? It might not necessarily work all the time I would think on higher difficulties but the idea would be an effective hit and run strategy with magic. Transmute helps if you were to be targeted by magic but that is situational at best after some experimentation. But when it does activate the +3 to all stats makes it more manageable for the next player phase. 

I understand if Dark Flier Ingrid might not be optimal but at least classing her as a mgae then warlock should help out her magic stat a bit and having strong blizzards and thorons with a good crit chance can be fun to try out

[Dark Holy Elf]

Desperation feels extremely unnecessary on a Dark Flier since there's very little that will actually counter them in practice. Expanded range options (Caduceus, Thyrsus, Thoron, and eventually S in reason) let them outrange most enemies, with bow knights presenting the most trouble but even then they can be struck at melee

[Barren]

35 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Desperation feels extremely unnecessary on a Dark Flier since there's very little that will actually counter them in practice. Expanded range options (Caduceus, Thyrsus, Thoron, and eventually S in reason) let them outrange most enemies, with bow knights presenting the most trouble but even then they can be struck at melee

I suppose that's true. Desperation is probably better on front line units for sure especially when paired with a high crit weapon. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:46 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah that's gonna bite a little for Lysithea - if I sacrificed the Dancer cert and made her master Mortal Sav, she'd be a pretty dodge-tanky swordswoman, and Warding Blow could boost Soulblade a little. In fact, would it? I can't remember if Darting/Armored Blow do the same for Lance Jab/Armored Strike.

Meant to respond to this sooner, but - if you want Lysithea dodge-tanking while wielding Swords, she's better as an Assassin, because the class has higher speed. Still, I wouldn't especially recommend this course of action. Lysithea's only options for dealing magical damage on enemy phase are the Levin Sword (which is fairly heavy) and the Blutgang (which is costly to repair). Maybe she could be dodgy if paired with Alert Stance, but that's a lot of work to get. I would say her best use in a sword build is one-shotting enemies on player phase with Soulblade (which I don't think gets a boost from Warding Blow, but I haven't tested this), or with Levin Sword if she doubles and/or needs the attacking range. In this case, Mortal Savant deals more damage, but Assassin still wins in mobility. Of course, Mortal Savant keeps spell access (including Warp support), so that's a major point in its favor, even if you want her primarily fighting with swords.

[Owns]

Those Ignatz and Hanneman builds look very interesting.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

If we are talking Aura Knuckles, I think we’ll need to talk about Constance. I have not tried it myself, but I think Constance can do well as a War Cleric, given her hidden talent in Brawling making it easier to get to where she needs to to wreck people. I’d say the class path would be like:

Monk->Mage->War Cleric

She does get Mystic Blow upon budding her Brawling talent, so she can do some stuff before getting to A rank.

[haarhaarhaar]

Yeah Constance is probably the only mage who's actually built towards War Cleric. Because she gets a boon and can get Mystic Blow quite early, I think there's space to complicate her progression even on an NG run. She'd appreciate Valkyrie for Uncanny Blow, and she'd only need a C in Riding to get the opportunity to class in.

I'd imagine her endgame skill set to be Brawl Prowess, Reason Lv, Fiendish Blow, Uncanny Blow, and Brawl Avo +20, which can be replaced by either Magic Range +1 or a faire skill if she gets it (or even Mag +2 if her Avo is awful enough for the skill not to matter).

[Barren]

I tried War Cleric Constance on my GD run and she was fun to use. Though I would imagine that would be a one trick pony on the harder difficulties. I can see her however using something like brawl prowess level 5, brawl avoid +20, fiendish blow, magic + 2, and brawl crit + 10 if you want her to be getting higher crits with killer gauntlets and mystic blow or just her brawling in general

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/20/2020 at 5:18 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Yep, it costs 4 Arcane Crystal to turn a Levin Sword into a Levin Sword+ and 4 Arcane Crystal to turn Steel Knuckles into Aura Knuckles, so there is competition. But you probably won't need more than one pair of Aura Knuckles per run, and if you really want to, the + upgrade can be delayed till Ch. 16 when you can buy Arcane Crystal, if necessary. Honestly, by Ch. 16 you shouldn't be having money troubles unless you only fight in chapter battles. And the build I described above probably won't be ready for Aura Knuckles till at least Ch.14-15 or so anyway - Arcane Crystal availability shouldn't be an issue IMO. 

Fair, other than the part where other magic weapons benefit more from the upgrade than Aura Knuckles.

On 6/20/2020 at 5:18 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Venin Lances, for example, have ten fewer uses than Iron Lances and weigh 1 point more, and there's no difference in Mt/Hit. Also bear in mind it's far easier to upgrade iron weapons than it is to upgrade venin weapons - four Venomstone is ridiculously hard to come by, you'd either have to feed lots of animals with high-grade food or get really lucky with Demonic Beasts.

Given that the earliest you're likely to get them is probably Ch. 9, I just don't know why you wouldn't keep an iron weapon (+) for normal combat and bring a steel/silver weapon for CA usage instead of bringing a venin weapon at all. They just aren't helpful when they do become accessible.

Just like the Aura Knuckles? Because the units that have an easy time getting to A in brawling have poor magic, which discourages their use.

On 6/20/2020 at 5:18 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

It's not that the investment yields no profit, it's that the investment yields no immediate profit. Dancer Marianne (or indeed any dancer) loves Mv +1, for example, but will spend a decent chunk of the game training Riding without it helping in the moment. There are any number of things in the game that don't give profit for a while but eventually are of good benefit - you're looking to the future, that's what a build plan is. It's not as if mages were missing anything by not being able to use gauntlets that aren't Aura Knuckles anyway - but their eventual offensive boost when they can use them would be amazing. 

As for War Monk, I've found that mages are particularly short-changed with spells like Thoron, siege tomes, and Warp (otherwise they have enough spell charges to do the requisite amount of chip damage/support). Obviously "some magic" is still a pain, and it is a sacrifice you're making for gauntlets, but as I've illustrated above, the rewards on attack are worth it. If you're worried about the potential cost, just choose a mage you weren't gonna use otherwise and who doesn't have a brawling weakness. You can still run as many full mages as you like per map - I'm not suggesting you make all of your mages War Monks, just one.

If the investment yields no immediate profit, that's not a problem alone. But I do take issue when the profit fails to justify the investment, and I have no reason to feel that is not the case here, especially considering the sacrifices I have to make.

On 6/20/2020 at 5:18 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Sure, but you've given me no reason to think that this won't work in practice. What obstacles do you foresee to the theory I described above? I'm sorry this seems like an insane amount of mental hoops to you, but this is a game that encourages creative thinking in order to accomplish objectives. Examining all the tools at your disposal, and figuring out how to best utilise them is, I'd say, the mark of a good player. Besides, this is a thread explicitly about using hybrid classes and magic weapons to their full potential - I'm not sure why you're here if it's too much effort for you to think about.

As far as accuracy goes, Aura Knuckles+ has a better hit rate than all the other magic weapons in the game (and the same or better than most weapons in the game, unless they are iron/training weapons or swords). The magic hit formula ignores terrain bonuses and targets magical evasion, which is almost always lower on enemies than their physical evasion, so it definitely helps. Finally, losing durability on missed attacks is a fairly lame reason not to use magic weapons in general - this used to be the case for all weapons in other FE titles, and repairing in this game isn't much of a big deal anyway. 

On the other hand, I have yet to see a reason why this would work in practice, or that the sacrifices are worth it. For example, the aforementioned Constance. There's no way in hell you can convince me it's worth sacrificing three uses of Bolting. Also, I tend to be rather cynical regarding hybrid classes, since in general, very few, if any, characters can be good in one.

They also force you up close, which is generally not good on Maddening. And they're rather costly to repair, too (3750 gold, which is too much for how good they aren't). Incidentally, I always thought the loss of durability on missed attacks only applied to tomes, as most FE games do that, whereas swords, axes, lances and bows must hit in order to lose durability. That being said, while my most recent run involves Falco Marianne, I had her qualify for Wyvern because having to rely on a magic weapon for damage is not a good position to be in, seeing as they tend to be rather inaccurate. Which, once again, the magic hit formula, which averages out the Dexterity and Luck stats, doesn't help much with. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, other than the part where other magic weapons benefit more from the upgrade than Aura Knuckles.

There isn't such a competition for Arcane Crystal or gold that you can't afford to upgrade Aura Knuckles in the mid-to-late game. 

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just like the Aura Knuckles? Because the units that have an easy time getting to A in brawling have poor magic, which discourages their use.

Not just like the Aura Knuckles, because there are at least some units who both could want them and can utilise them - there is nobody who ever wants Venin weapons that can get them at a time when they are useful. We've already discussed the cases with physical brawlers - I'm happy to agree that not all of them want Aura Knuckles, and my argument acknowledges that the Aura Knuckles aren't useful to all brawlers, but can be effective on some units.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

But I do take issue when the profit fails to justify the investment, and I have no reason to feel that is not the case here, especially considering the sacrifices I have to make.

In this case the profit would be greater raw attack than any single spell on any mage class could achieve. If you think the investments (brawling training, loss of some spell charges, War Monk the class) are too much, then there isn't much else I can say to change your mind. On balance though, I don't think it's obvious that the investment does fail to justify the profit. After all, there's normally at least one slot in your army dedicated to a magic attacker, if not more, and raw magic attack ought to be a big deciding factor in who gets into that slot.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On the other hand, I have yet to see a reason why this would work in practice,

I set out the theory above. The idea being that if I follow that theory, it should work in practice. The burden on proof was subsequently on you to show that the theory doesn't work, or there is some practical objection to achieving the effects I set out, which I don't think you've done.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

There's no way in hell you can convince me it's worth sacrificing three uses of Bolting. Also, I tend to be rather cynical regarding hybrid classes, since in general, very few, if any, characters can be good in one.

While it isn't obvious that Constance is going to be a Gremory, I take your point that losing any charges on a siege tome is painful. If you'd rather have Bolting, choose a different mage. Any canon mage without a weakness in Brawling will do this build just fine, and achieve better raw attack than Constance or anybody else in Gremory. 

I also agree that cynicism about hybrid classes is healthy, and I think 3H doesn't really encourage them, despite allowing for their possibility. But that doesn't mean that they can't work, or that you should dismiss effective options out of hand when they are presented to you.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

They also force you up close, which is generally not good on Maddening. 

Up close is an issue we agree on, and again one I acknowledged earlier. In general, though, it doesn't change much. Your mage was unlikely to have an enemy phase regardless, so you just have to make sure that the War Monk is positioned safely or that you're gonna eliminate all in-range enemies on that Player Phase. There's even a chance that War Monk's growths will have given the unit enough HP to tank a hit. But if safe positioning isn't possible, then the War Monk can still use their spell charges, or Pneuma Gale for chipping.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That being said, while my most recent run involves Falco Marianne, I had her qualify for Wyvern because having to rely on a magic weapon for damage is not a good position to be in, seeing as they tend to be rather inaccurate. Which, once again, the magic hit formula, which averages out the Dexterity and Luck stats, doesn't help much with. 

I'm assuming FK Marianne is relying on Levin Sword+ in this run? I'm not sure why you think magic weapons are 'so' inaccurate - on average I don't think they're worse than most physical weapons in this regard, and they often do better. I mean, Levin Sword might lose to a Javelin or an Iron Bow in terms of accuracy, but Marianne throwing a Javelin is gonna deal inconsequential damage for most of the game.

Besides, Marianne is lucky in that she gets Frozen Lance and Soulblade, both of which can often OHKO, and are certainly going to do more damage than anything she's using her Strength stat for - it means that she can use swords and lances profitably for much of the game.

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

There isn't such a competition for Arcane Crystal or gold that you can't afford to upgrade Aura Knuckles in the mid-to-late game. 

The Aura Knuckles are as expensive to repair as relic weapons are. And not nearly as useful as some of them are. In other words, for how much they cost to repair, I am getting cheated in terms of investment versus returns on that investment. I'd get more mileage out of repairing pretty much anything else.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Not just like the Aura Knuckles, because there are at least some units who both could want them and can utilise them - there is nobody who ever wants Venin weapons that can get them at a time when they are useful. We've already discussed the cases with physical brawlers - I'm happy to agree that not all of them want Aura Knuckles, and my argument acknowledges that the Aura Knuckles aren't useful to all brawlers, but can be effective on some units.

By going into a third-rate class that doesn't hold a candle to Warlock, much less Bishop (which is pretty much required because mages can't use gauntlets)? No. Just no. I don't see War Monk/Cleric as an improvement for any magically inclined character over the former two classes.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

In this case the profit would be greater raw attack than any single spell on any mage class could achieve. If you think the investments (brawling training, loss of some spell charges, War Monk the class) are too much, then there isn't much else I can say to change your mind. On balance though, I don't think it's obvious that the investment does fail to justify the profit. After all, there's normally at least one slot in your army dedicated to a magic attacker, if not more, and raw magic attack ought to be a big deciding factor in who gets into that slot.

And I fail to see that as worth it because I have to put in a LOT of brawling training that doesn't benefit me in any way, shape or form specifically for going into the class. The loss of spell charges, as I stated earlier, is also a dealbreaker, as many mages have valuable spells that I'd rather not have halved uses of. Sure, I'll have at least one slot dedicated to a magic attacker, but once again, War Monk/Cleric is just inferior to Bishop and Warlock. So why would this be worth it again? Because from where I'm standing, it obviously isn't. 

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

I set out the theory above. The idea being that if I follow that theory, it should work in practice. The burden on proof was subsequently on you to show that the theory doesn't work, or there is some practical objection to achieving the effects I set out, which I don't think you've done.

I already did give practical objections - that the Aura Knuckles are expensive to acquire and not helpful enough to justify the expenses. Well, that, and as stated above, the brawling training needed to qualify for War Monk is about as useful for a mage as tits on a bull since they can't use gauntlets, and mages are better off going towards Warlock or Bishop instead of War Monk/Cleric.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

While it isn't obvious that Constance is going to be a Gremory, I take your point that losing any charges on a siege tome is painful. If you'd rather have Bolting, choose a different mage. Any canon mage without a weakness in Brawling will do this build just fine, and achieve better raw attack than Constance or anybody else in Gremory. 

I also agree that cynicism about hybrid classes is healthy, and I think 3H doesn't really encourage them, despite allowing for their possibility. But that doesn't mean that they can't work, or that you should dismiss effective options out of hand when they are presented to you.

If by "just fine", you mean "just fine, at the very very high cost of valuable spell charges", then sure.

I don't see it as dismissing effective options out of hand. I see it more as shooting down a crappy idea that requires sacrifices that are too great to justify.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Up close is an issue we agree on, and again one I acknowledged earlier. In general, though, it doesn't change much. Your mage was unlikely to have an enemy phase regardless, so you just have to make sure that the War Monk is positioned safely or that you're gonna eliminate all in-range enemies on that Player Phase. There's even a chance that War Monk's growths will have given the unit enough HP to tank a hit. But if safe positioning isn't possible, then the War Monk can still use their spell charges, or Pneuma Gale for chipping.

Well, it's fair that I can't expect a mage to have any sort of enemy phase, other than against other mages, and I can't help but think that's iffy as well. If a War Monk/Cleric has to resort to using their halved spell charges, though, that's pretty much saying that they're have been better off in a class that doesn't cut their spell charges in half.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

I'm assuming FK Marianne is relying on Levin Sword+ in this run? I'm not sure why you think magic weapons are 'so' inaccurate - on average I don't think they're worse than most physical weapons in this regard, and they often do better. I mean, Levin Sword might lose to a Javelin or an Iron Bow in terms of accuracy, but Marianne throwing a Javelin is gonna deal inconsequential damage for most of the game.

Besides, Marianne is lucky in that she gets Frozen Lance and Soulblade, both of which can often OHKO, and are certainly going to do more damage than anything she's using her Strength stat for - it means that she can use swords and lances profitably for much of the game.

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

No. Like I said in my last post, I actually had her qualify for Wyvern for the purpose of not needing to rely primarily on an inaccurate magic weapon for offense. Once again, I say magic weapons tend to be inaccurate because they're already among the least accurate of their weapon classes (incidentally, this was stated by someone else in the weapon balance topic before it got locked - right after my first post, even - and after having played the game more, I have come to realize that the person who made that statement actually had a point); to put things into perspective, the Bolt Axe ties for the least accurate axe, the Levin Sword is only more accurate than the Devil Sword, and the Aura Knuckles are the least accurate gauntlets. The use of the magic hit formula doesn't help much because most units tend to have a disparity between Dexterity and Luck, which are the two stats averaged out for magic hit. The result is that unless the enemy is on terrain, odds are I'm better off attacking with another weapon. I mean, it's as I keep saying - it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you can't hit in the first place. This is why I keep shooting down the Wyvern Annette build as overrated.

On the other hand, nearly all the flying battalions boost physical attacks. The only one that boosts magic attacks is the Nuvelle Fliers Corps, which I don't have access to in the playthrough in question because by the time I got the DLC, I was already in part 2.

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The Aura Knuckles are as expensive to repair as relic weapons are. And not nearly as useful as some of them are. In other words, for how much they cost to repair, I am getting cheated in terms of investment versus returns on that investment. I'd get more mileage out of repairing pretty much anything else

Like I was saying before, repairing isn't a zero-sum game where you have to pick and choose what weapons you maintain, unless somebody is exceptionally bad at money management. Unless they require Wootz Steel, Mythril, Agarthium, or Venomstone, you shouldn't be having any difficulties repairing weapons in Part 2, either in terms of money or resources. 2,500G/3,750G is a decent amount, compared to other repair costs, but it's chump change compared to your Part 2 war chest. After the early game, money is almost never a relevant limitation on what you can or can't do.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

By going into a third-rate class that doesn't hold a candle to Warlock, much less Bishop (which is pretty much required because mages can't use gauntlets)? No. Just no. I don't see War Monk/Cleric as an improvement for any magically inclined character over the former two classes.

Because War Monk/Cleric isn't competing to do the same things as Warlock or especially Bishop. Nobody has ever claimed that they are (and most, including me, don't think that War Monk is a good class in general). The people who will want War Monk/Cleric as an endgame class are people who are supposed to be magic attackers, but can't regularly get kills/significant chip, because (as described above) their raw magic attack with Aura Knuckles will be higher than any spell ever.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And I fail to see that as worth it because I have to put in a LOT of brawling training that doesn't benefit me in any way, shape or form specifically for going into the class. The loss of spell charges, as I stated earlier, is also a dealbreaker, as many mages have valuable spells that I'd rather not have halved uses of. Sure, I'll have at least one slot dedicated to a magic attacker, but once again, War Monk/Cleric is just inferior to Bishop and Warlock. So why would this be worth it again? Because from where I'm standing, it obviously isn't. 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, it's fair that I can't expect a mage to have any sort of enemy phase, other than against other mages, and I can't help but think that's iffy as well. If a War Monk/Cleric has to resort to using their halved spell charges, though, that's pretty much saying that they're have been better off in a class that doesn't cut their spell charges in half.

Achieving B rank fists with neutral proficiency for a mage is only a problem if you don't plan on getting it in advance. Putting just a little thought into it will mean you can easily get B rank by Lv 20, which is the minimum for classing into War Monk/Cleric. I've never had trouble raising secondary ranks for anyone before (for example, certifying into Fortress Knight/Paladin without spending time in Armored Knight/Cavalier for armour/horse ranks) and I don't see why I would here.

Limited spell charges aren't a dealbreaker, because they don't simply disappear (like what happens in other 'some magic' classes), they're replaced with gauntlet accessibility. Aura Knuckles will have more uses than almost any spell, as will all gauntlets. And all other gauntlets can be used as fodder for Pneuma Gale, which leverages the unit's mag stat into a decent amount of magic chip. With Killer Knuckles, that's a higher crit rate than any spell.

War Monk allows a mage to have some of the magic utility they would have otherwise had, keeping them useful even if they are prevented from using their niche (although that's not the reason why a mage is in that class). But no magic class affords a mage use of Aura Knuckles (which as shown above, can provide higher raw attack than every spell in the game), or gives them over 20 spell charges for a mid-strength spell (because mages basically never have competition for inventory slots, meaning that the War Monk can carry lots of gauntlets for Pneuma Gale).

And, as I already said above, Aura Knuckles gives higher attack than anything Warlock can put out (Bishop's niche is healing, and War Monk's is offence, so this is irrelevant for candidates for endgame Bishop). Simple, raw offensive power, is why you might choose War Monk over Warlock. Warlock does other things well and I'm not claiming that it's a bad class. But it is inferior in this respect, and attack power is not an insignificant concern.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I already did give practical objections - that the Aura Knuckles are expensive to acquire and not helpful enough to justify the expenses. Well, that, and as stated above, the brawling training needed to qualify for War Monk is about as useful for a mage as tits on a bull since they can't use gauntlets, and mages are better off going towards Warlock or Bishop instead of War Monk/Cleric

Dude, 3,750G and 4 Arcane Crystal is really not a big deal. Do you really believe that this is reason enough to prevent anyone from attempting this build? 

If you are considering making a mage into a War Monk, you do it for the main reason that they have more raw offensive power than they would otherwise get as Warlock. This build results in getting one of the highest base magic atk possible in the game - none of your objections have shown that the theory to create that doesn't work, or that it doesn't provide the outcome I foresee (by practical objections I wanted you to point out some flaw in my reasoning that meant the build couldn't actually be carried out, not complaints about an opportunity cost that really isn't very high). 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. Like I said in my last post, I actually had her qualify for Wyvern for the purpose of not needing to rely primarily on an inaccurate magic weapon for offense. Once again, I say magic weapons tend to be inaccurate because they're already among the least accurate of their weapon classes (incidentally, this was stated by someone else in the weapon balance topic before it got locked - right after my first post, even - and after having played the game more, I have come to realize that the person who made that statement actually had a point); to put things into perspective, the Bolt Axe ties for the least accurate axe, the Levin Sword is only more accurate than the Devil Sword, and the Aura Knuckles are the least accurate gauntlets. The use of the magic hit formula doesn't help much because most units tend to have a disparity between Dexterity and Luck, which are the two stats averaged out for magic hit. The result is that unless the enemy is on terrain, odds are I'm better off attacking with another weapon. I mean, it's as I keep saying - it doesn't matter how hard you hit if you can't hit in the first place. This is why I keep shooting down the Wyvern Annette build as overrated.

On the other hand, nearly all the flying battalions boost physical attacks. The only one that boosts magic attacks is the Nuvelle Fliers Corps, which I don't have access to in the playthrough in question because by the time I got the DLC, I was already in part 2.

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

Frozen Lance and Soulblade don't need magic weapons to deal big damage (in fact, they do better with high-Mt physical weapons) and that seems like flier Marianne's action of choice. Marianne's strength just isn't likely to catch up to her magic stat, even when in WL. I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The reason that magic weapons aren't actually as inaccurate as you claim is because enemy units run off a different, hidden stat for magic evasion. Which, as well as ignoring terrain boosts, averages speed and luck stats instead of simply going off AS. And enemies tend not to be that lucky (or as lucky as they are fast) which means the subsequent drop in evasion makes mag weapons closer to the middle/top end of weapon accuracy. With the exception of Bolt Axe, because it weighs so much too (although WL/Weight -3 makes it manageable). 

[Barren]

I was testing out Bolt Axe+ Hapi as a Wyvern Rider the other night, it does inflict magic damage as intended but I've noticed that it still triggers Pavise when going up against those titanus monsters. My guess it's because Axes are technically still recognized as physical weapons?

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

I was testing out Bolt Axe+ Hapi as a Wyvern Rider the other night, it does inflict magic damage as intended but I've noticed that it still triggers Pavise when going up against those titanus monsters. My guess it's because Axes are technically still recognized as physical weapons?

Yeah Pavise is supposed to halve swords/axes/lances/gauntlets damage in this game, regardless of whether weapons of those kinds use strength or magic.

How was Axe build Hapi out of interest?

Edited July 11, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[Barren]

She was pretty fun. I mastered Uncanny Blow beforehand. At least on normal mode (I'm just experimenting around really). Of course being a Wyvern Rider/Wyvern Lord fixes helps her strength issues a little bit since it'll jump from 35% to 45%, but her defense is still pretty poor. Her resist stat is still high enough to tank magic damage. So it's mostly a gimmick. Only rally she knows is rally dex so her rallying options is really limited to that. Her bane in authority also doesn't help matters since flying battalions tend to be more about physical attributes than magic.

Her budding talent in axes exhaustive strike isn't really worth using unless you like breaking forged weapons over and over again. Though using smith stones to repair forged steel axes aren't the worst thing in the world. I just don't use it that much.

[haarhaarhaar]

4 hours ago, Barren said:

Her budding talent in axes exhaustive strike isn't really worth using unless you like breaking forged weapons over and over again. Though using smith stones to repair forged steel axes aren't the worst thing in the world. I just don't use it that much.

Yeah I figured a Hapi axe build wouldn't be amazing. Did you try Bolt Axe+/Crusher with Exhaustive Strike? I was wondering how well that does in practice (it seems like that would be her most powerful weapon attack, and if there's any worth in a Hapi axe build it would be comparing that to her performance using Hades). 

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, Barren said:

I was testing out Bolt Axe+ Hapi as a Wyvern Rider the other night, it does inflict magic damage as intended but I've noticed that it still triggers Pavise when going up against those titanus monsters. My guess it's because Axes are technically still recognized as physical weapons?

That's about the size of it, yeah. It even worked that way in Awakening and Fates, iirc.

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Like I was saying before, repairing isn't a zero-sum game where you have to pick and choose what weapons you maintain, unless somebody is exceptionally bad at money management. Unless they require Wootz Steel, Mythril, Agarthium, or Venomstone, you shouldn't be having any difficulties repairing weapons in Part 2, either in terms of money or resources. 2,500G/3,750G is a decent amount, compared to other repair costs, but it's chump change compared to your Part 2 war chest. After the early game, money is almost never a relevant limitation on what you can or can't do.

It's less about that, and more about what I get out of it. And the Aura Knuckles ain't good enough to justify that hefty of a price tag. Especially when Arcane Crystals aren't exactly cheap.

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Because War Monk/Cleric isn't competing to do the same things as Warlock or especially Bishop. Nobody has ever claimed that they are (and most, including me, don't think that War Monk is a good class in general). The people who will want War Monk/Cleric as an endgame class are people who are supposed to be magic attackers, but can't regularly get kills/significant chip, because (as described above) their raw magic attack with Aura Knuckles will be higher than any spell ever.

Like who? Because as far as I'm concerned, that type of character doesn't exist in this game. And the characters that can access War Monk easily are not suited for it in the first place, either, which doesn't help its already flimsy case.

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Achieving B rank fists with neutral proficiency for a mage is only a problem if you don't plan on getting it in advance. Putting just a little thought into it will mean you can easily get B rank by Lv 20, which is the minimum for classing into War Monk/Cleric. I've never had trouble raising secondary ranks for anyone before (for example, certifying into Fortress Knight/Paladin without spending time in Armored Knight/Cavalier for armour/horse ranks) and I don't see why I would here.

Limited spell charges aren't a dealbreaker, because they don't simply disappear (like what happens in other 'some magic' classes), they're replaced with gauntlet accessibility. Aura Knuckles will have more uses than almost any spell, as will all gauntlets. And all other gauntlets can be used as fodder for Pneuma Gale, which leverages the unit's mag stat into a decent amount of magic chip. With Killer Knuckles, that's a higher crit rate than any spell.

War Monk allows a mage to have some of the magic utility they would have otherwise had, keeping them useful even if they are prevented from using their niche (although that's not the reason why a mage is in that class). But no magic class affords a mage use of Aura Knuckles (which as shown above, can provide higher raw attack than every spell in the game), or gives them over 20 spell charges for a mid-strength spell (because mages basically never have competition for inventory slots, meaning that the War Monk can carry lots of gauntlets for Pneuma Gale).

And, as I already said above, Aura Knuckles gives higher attack than anything Warlock can put out (Bishop's niche is healing, and War Monk's is offence, so this is irrelevant for candidates for endgame Bishop). Simple, raw offensive power, is why you might choose War Monk over Warlock. Warlock does other things well and I'm not claiming that it's a bad class. But it is inferior in this respect, and attack power is not an insignificant concern.

Which is, as i said in no uncertain terms, worthless, because War Monk/Cleric sucks harder than Little Mac's recovery.

Is too, because gauntlet access doesn't even come close to making up for this. Whoopee, I get to use weapons that mostly top out at 4 might on characters that tend to be ill suited for using them! Is this your idea of a joke? Because if it is, I'm not laughing.

If Pneuma Gale was actually worth it, you'd have a point, but it isn't (largely because the class it's tied to is worse than junk).

If attack power alone was the be-all and end-all, then fighters wouldn't be considered poor classes in most FE games. But it is not, so I'm not impressed.

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Dude, 3,750G and 4 Arcane Crystal is really not a big deal. Do you really believe that this is reason enough to prevent anyone from attempting this build? 

If you are considering making a mage into a War Monk, you do it for the main reason that they have more raw offensive power than they would otherwise get as Warlock. This build results in getting one of the highest base magic atk possible in the game - none of your objections have shown that the theory to create that doesn't work, or that it doesn't provide the outcome I foresee (by practical objections I wanted you to point out some flaw in my reasoning that meant the build couldn't actually be carried out, not complaints about an opportunity cost that really isn't very high). 

I don't know about you, but money wasn't much of a concern... in part 1. In part 2, that stops. In that context, I'd consider the Aura Knuckles a rip-off. Especially since it's over 5 grand to repair forged Aura Knuckles (3750 for the weapon repair alone, and another 1500 for the Arcane Crystals needed). Last I checked, that's not a drop in the bucket - this isn't Awakening, or whatever other game bombards you with cash throughout the whole game.

Once again, raw attack power alone is the wrong thing to be focusing on. Especially when the opportunity cost is huge (once again, I think too many mages have valuable spells to be okay with halving their uses, especially when I get nothing of note in exchange).

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Frozen Lance and Soulblade don't need magic weapons to deal big damage (in fact, they do better with high-Mt physical weapons) and that seems like flier Marianne's action of choice. Marianne's strength just isn't likely to catch up to her magic stat, even when in WL. I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The reason that magic weapons aren't actually as inaccurate as you claim is because enemy units run off a different, hidden stat for magic evasion. Which, as well as ignoring terrain boosts, averages speed and luck stats instead of simply going off AS. And enemies tend not to be that lucky (or as lucky as they are fast) which means the subsequent drop in evasion makes mag weapons closer to the middle/top end of weapon accuracy. With the exception of Bolt Axe, because it weighs so much too (although WL/Weight -3 makes it manageable). 

True enough, but in general, if I'm doubling most of the time, I'm probably better off just attacking normally than using a combat art. As is, I only use those against armors, which fold to magic attacks in general. And I was talking about having her as a Falcon Knight, NOT Wyvern Lord (you really should have caught on to this because Marianne has strengths in all of the requirements for Falco).

I generally found other weapons to be more accurate than magic weapons in spite of this (admittedly, though, most of what I use is iron and occasionally steel, depending on the unit). They ignore terrain bonuses, sure, but that's not enough - I very seldom find engaging enemies on terrain with anything other than mages to be a good idea. Especially in the case of the Bolt Axe, which also has 15 weight dragging it down.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like who? Because as far as I'm concerned, that type of character doesn't exist in this game. And the characters that can access War Monk easily are not suited for it in the first place, either, which doesn't help its already flimsy case

Like I said, any mage who doesn't have a weakness in Brawling.

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which is, as i said in no uncertain terms, worthless, because War Monk/Cleric sucks harder than Little Mac's recovery.

Is too, because gauntlet access doesn't even come close to making up for this. Whoopee, I get to use weapons that mostly top out at 4 might on characters that tend to be ill suited for using them! Is this your idea of a joke? Because if it is, I'm not laughing.

If Pneuma Gale was actually worth it, you'd have a point, but it isn't (largely because the class it's tied to is worse than junk).

If attack power alone was the be-all and end-all, then fighters wouldn't be considered poor classes in most FE games. But it is not, so I'm not impressed

Most of this quotation doesn't constitute much of any kind of argument - either it lacks relevance, or it's just empty rhetoric.

Here's the original calculations that led me to say to that Pneuma Gale is at least OK. 

On 5/12/2020 at 1:26 PM, paladin21 said:

Pneuma Gale isn't so useless as I thought, since it would be a 12-16 might spell that can't double (calculations below), but so would many low level spells, with the added benefit that you'd never run out of it (70 durability of training gauntlets is enough to cast it 23 times for 12 might. However, it can't match the offensive power of a pure magic class.

Pneuma Gale base damage = art might (7) + War Monk fistfaire (5) + gauntlet might (0-4 for non-relics)

Gauntlets are obviously not a straight substitute for spell charges. However, they still allow for more charges of magical damage than you would actually get in other classes. I have never at any point claimed that War Monk, or Pneuma Gale, are outright good. All I have said this entire time is that a War Monk Aura Knuckles build has an exceptional amount of raw attack power, enough to actually consider it as a build for one of your endgame party (and thus as a competing build to the usual Warlock progression). Anything else I've said in defence of War Monk is to justify why anyone would go into it on top of attempting to achieve this attack power

16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about you, but money wasn't much of a concern... in part 1. In part 2, that stops. In that context, I'd consider the Aura Knuckles a rip-off. Especially since it's over 5 grand to repair forged Aura Knuckles (3750 for the weapon repair alone, and another 1500 for the Arcane Crystals needed). Last I checked, that's not a drop in the bucket - this isn't Awakening, or whatever other game bombards you with cash throughout the whole game.

Once again, raw attack power alone is the wrong thing to be focusing on. Especially when the opportunity cost is huge (once again, I think too many mages have valuable spells to be okay with halving their uses, especially when I get nothing of note in exchange).

I found the opposite. You can sell lots of more valuable things in Part 2, you will always get 5k a month from Professor Level, more money from tournaments, auxiliary battles (and DLC battles) give out higher rewards, and that's excluding however much money you had left over from Part 1. And after the Chapter 13 battle , you won't have to invest money buying seals/weapons for units you don't want to use (and there isn't really a need to upgrade most of your weapons before endgame, so outgoing costs aren't that bad either). I found that without doing more than one day of aux battles per month I very rarely dropped below 50-60k in Part 2 (more on NG+ files). I'm happy to write all that off as a difference in subjective experience between us, but even still, if I was planning to use a unit for endgame, 3,750G or 5,000G seems like a reasonable investment over the course of any Part 2.

Okay, let's talk about spell loss. I'm assuming you love siege tomes (I don't mind losing out on them) so this build is a no go for Constance, Dorothea and Hanneman. Let's also dismiss Lorenz, Marianne, Linhardt and Hapi (who have weaknesses in Brawling) and Lysithea (best offensive list in the game IMO). Let's assume your healer isn't any of the mentioned mages, leaving one of Mercedes or Flayn to be that healer. Even assuming that all of those units are for some reason unavailable for this build, that still leaves Manuela, Annette, Yuri and Anna free to do it (and Hubert on CF) - all of whom can get a high enough magic stat to make my earlier outline work (if not higher). In practice, it's also extremely unlikely that you're going to want to use all six of the otherwise constrained mages (Lysithea, Constance, Dorothea, Hanneman, Mercedes, Flayn) as pure mages, because that's normally too many to deploy anyway. Given that this build will certainly give you more raw attack power than any straight mage, meaning a higher likelihood of Player Phase KOs (which is everything on Maddening, how on earth can this be the wrong thing to focus on?), and most of your mages won't even be able to compete with normal Lysithea in damage output, it seems very reasonable to let one of your mages try this build.

17 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

True enough, but in general, if I'm doubling most of the time, I'm probably better off just attacking normally than using a combat art. As is, I only use those against armors, which fold to magic attacks in general. And I was talking about having her as a Falcon Knight, NOT Wyvern Lord (you really should have caught on to this because Marianne has strengths in all of the requirements for Falco).

I generally found other weapons to be more accurate than magic weapons in spite of this (admittedly, though, most of what I use is iron and occasionally steel, depending on the unit). They ignore terrain bonuses, sure, but that's not enough - I very seldom find engaging enemies on terrain with anything other than mages to be a good idea. Especially in the case of the Bolt Axe, which also has 15 weight dragging it down.

Even if Marianne is doubling (which is probably for only around half the enemies or less in Maddening anyway, like everyone else) the disparity between her Str and Mag is enough that only a Brave Lance (or potentially the Relic lances) are likely to reach as much damage as, or more than, Frozen Lance. Given that there are lots of good lance users, many of whom would appreciate a Brave Lance/be better users of the Relics, and fairly little Wootz Steel to go around, I'm surprised you went for Marianne as your physical attacker of choice.

Bolt Axe is definitely a troublesome weapon (I deploy it because it gives 3-space Linked Attack range for Axe users, but as a weapon in its own right it isn't nearly as good as the other magic weapons, precisely because of its weight). And from my experience I'd say normal bows (even without Curved Shot) have better hit than magic weapons. But gauntlets in general are a fairly accurate weapon class, and from what I've seen Aura Knuckles hit just as often as normal gauntlets - I've never worried about my hit rate when using them.

As for the bolded comment, here was my question.

On 6/22/2020 at 6:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

Here was your reply.

On 7/10/2020 at 8:50 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

I assumed you simply misread my question, otherwise you wouldn't have replied in this way (because at best it's misleading, otherwise it's straight-up wrong). That's why I said

On 7/11/2020 at 12:43 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The correct response is either to clarify whether you meant to bring up Marianne as a WL earlier, or defend why she should be in that class.

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Like I said, any mage who doesn't have a weakness in Brawling.

And once again, how many of those would be better off as a War Monk/Cleric instead of Warlock/Bishop? Because that list, far as I'm concerned, is empty for reasons already mentioned.

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Gauntlets are obviously not a straight substitute for spell charges. However, they still allow for more charges of magical damage than you would actually get in other classes. I have never at any point claimed that War Monk, or Pneuma Gale, are outright good. All I have said this entire time is that a War Monk Aura Knuckles build has an exceptional amount of raw attack power, enough to actually consider it as a build for one of your endgame party (and thus as a competing build to the usual Warlock progression). Anything else I've said in defence of War Monk is to justify why anyone would go into it on top of attempting to achieve this attack power

Except the Aura Knuckles are 1-range locked, unlike magic, meaning you're pretty much always risking retaliation (to say nothing of the fact that a mage with Caduceus or Thyrsus equals or surpasses a War Monk in terms of attack range, meaning they're rarely, if ever, at risk). So no, I don't see it as a competing build when all you can do is try to KO at 1 range knowing you're assuredly dead meat if you fail to kill for whatever reason. 

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

As for the bolded comment, here was my question.

On 6/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

If you've turned Marianne into a non-magic class in the first place, then the main thing she's gonna be doing is magical combat art damage, or using a Levin Sword - why would you put her in FK or WL if you distrust mixed builds so much?

Here was your reply.

On 7/10/2020 at 2:50 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Because it is easy for Marianne to achieve, as she is good in all the requirements.

I assumed you simply misread my question, otherwise you wouldn't have replied in this way (because at best it's misleading, otherwise it's straight-up wrong). That's why I said

On 7/10/2020 at 6:43 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

I assume you also know Marianne is neutral in Axes, and there's absolutely no reason to train her in them except for class requirements or personal reasons. You're welcome to do what you like, but it sounds less than optimal for Marianne to be a primarily physical attacker in a class that only gives her Axefaire for offensive boosts.

The correct response is either to clarify whether you meant to bring up Marianne as a WL earlier, or defend why she should be in that class.

As to that, I clarified that I wasn't aiming for her as a WL because she has a strength in the three fields needed for Falco access (swords, lances, flying). 

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Even if Marianne is doubling (which is probably for only around half the enemies or less in Maddening anyway, like everyone else) the disparity between her Str and Mag is enough that only a Brave Lance (or potentially the Relic lances) are likely to reach as much damage as, or more than, Frozen Lance. Given that there are lots of good lance users, many of whom would appreciate a Brave Lance/be better users of the Relics, and fairly little Wootz Steel to go around, I'm surprised you went for Marianne as your physical attacker of choice.

Bolt Axe is definitely a troublesome weapon (I deploy it because it gives 3-space Linked Attack range for Axe users, but as a weapon in its own right it isn't nearly as good as the other magic weapons, precisely because of its weight). And from my experience I'd say normal bows (even without Curved Shot) have better hit than magic weapons. But gauntlets in general are a fairly accurate weapon class, and from what I've seen Aura Knuckles hit just as often as normal gauntlets - I've never worried about my hit rate when using them.

Is this assuming she had qualified for Wyvern or not? Also, I'm kinda skeptical about having Marianne spamming magic combat arts as her main method of offense - this restricts her to trying to OHKO at range 1 when her durability isn't good. This being said, this admittedly is something I would not try on Maddening.

At the same time, most characters tend to not have as much luck as they have dexterity -  the luck growths in this game in general tend to not be high (only two characters have luck growths higher than 50% - Ignatz and Shamir). And you can't expect class growths to help much in this regard, as only a select few classes affect luck growth. As a result, I'm likely gonna expect to have to have accuracy issues with most of them without some help to patch them up.

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I found the opposite. You can sell lots of more valuable things in Part 2, you will always get 5k a month from Professor Level, more money from tournaments, auxiliary battles (and DLC battles) give out higher rewards, and that's excluding however much money you had left over from Part 1. And after the Chapter 13 battle , you won't have to invest money buying seals/weapons for units you don't want to use (and there isn't really a need to upgrade most of your weapons before endgame, so outgoing costs aren't that bad either). I found that without doing more than one day of aux battles per month I very rarely dropped below 50-60k in Part 2 (more on NG+ files). I'm happy to write all that off as a difference in subjective experience between us, but even still, if I was planning to use a unit for endgame, 3,750G or 5,000G seems like a reasonable investment over the course of any Part 2.

Isn't that money from professor level thing only relevant in part 1? Because I don't remember getting any of that in part 2. Also, my tournament participation tends to be rather limited because I still need to motivate my units, and find meals the most efficient method of doing so.

On 7/12/2020 at 11:47 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Okay, let's talk about spell loss. I'm assuming you love siege tomes (I don't mind losing out on them) so this build is a no go for Constance, Dorothea and Hanneman. Let's also dismiss Lorenz, Marianne, Linhardt and Hapi (who have weaknesses in Brawling) and Lysithea (best offensive list in the game IMO). Let's assume your healer isn't any of the mentioned mages, leaving one of Mercedes or Flayn to be that healer. Even assuming that all of those units are for some reason unavailable for this build, that still leaves Manuela, Annette, Yuri and Anna free to do it (and Hubert on CF) - all of whom can get a high enough magic stat to make my earlier outline work (if not higher). In practice, it's also extremely unlikely that you're going to want to use all six of the otherwise constrained mages (Lysithea, Constance, Dorothea, Hanneman, Mercedes, Flayn) as pure mages, because that's normally too many to deploy anyway. Given that this build will certainly give you more raw attack power than any straight mage, meaning a higher likelihood of Player Phase KOs (which is everything on Maddening, how on earth can this be the wrong thing to focus on?), and most of your mages won't even be able to compete with normal Lysithea in damage output, it seems very reasonable to let one of your mages try this build.

When I talk about spell loss, I don't just mean those; I also mean other goodies like Excalibur and Thoron. Also, I still think your focus on raw attack power is stupid because it ignores the fatal flaw of this - that you're having a mage try to KO at range 1 (aka, often risking retaliation) with a weapon that's not that accurate, while having the durability of wet tissue paper. I shouldn't have to point out what happens if they're unfortunate enough to whiff... also, because we're talking about a weapon with all of 2 might, I'd say that being magic screwed would make this fall apart like a house of cards (not helping matters is that War Monk has a big fat goose egg for magic). Which brings me back to the question I've been asking for a while now: why in the seven hells would I commit to a build that clearly sacrifices utility and is especially vulnerable to RNG screwage (because the moment enemies end up out of 2HKO range, this build is worthless)???

Edited July 14, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

As to that, I clarified that I wasn't aiming for her as a WL because she has a strength in the three fields needed for Falco access (swords, lances, flying). 

Is this assuming she had qualified for Wyvern or not? Also, I'm kinda skeptical about having Marianne spamming magic combat arts as her main method of offense - this restricts her to trying to OHKO at range 1 when her durability isn't good. This being said, this admittedly is something I would not try on Maddening.

At the same time, most characters tend to not have as much luck as they have dexterity -  the luck growths in this game in general tend to not be high (only two characters have luck growths higher than 50% - Ignatz and Shamir). And you can't expect class growths to help much in this regard, as only a select few classes affect luck growth. As a result, I'm likely gonna expect to have to have accuracy issues with most of them without some help to patch them up.

Yeah I was really driving at Marianne's optimal build earlier. Raising her to B+ Axes for WL to increase her strength base a bit (and potentially her growths if you spend time in the class) won't be optimal for her given how far ahead her mag stat is likely to be over her strength, how much more powerful her magical combat arts are in general, and what a resultant waste of time axe tutoring/training would be. I think her Mag is just about high enough that she gets OHKOs for quite a lot of the game with magical combat arts, meaning she normally won't get counters (and will probably be in a Canto class or a dodge-y sword class that can avoid them). Seeing as Fimbulvetr/Aura are often dodgier accuracy-wise than these combat arts, I'd argue Marianne's best offensive build is utilising her magic combat arts (or at least that it's a difficult choice between pure mage or CA user).

Fair point about luck growths - I think that in practice it's more than balanced by the fact that the disparity between a given magical unit's dexterity and luck at endgame isn't likely to ever be more than 20 points, whereas a speedy Maddening enemy is normally going to have more than 20 points' difference between their speed and luck, because of how quick units get. This holds truer of Part 2 perhaps, but it normally means that Magic Hit - Enemy Magic Evasion > Physical Hit - (Enemy Physical Evasion + Terrain Bonus). In other words, magic attacks end up hitting often despite what the numbers say, and are fairly consistent. Aura Knuckles has 80 Hit, and the average spell has that hit or less, so I don't think there's any standard difference between a mage's accuracy and a War Monk's, which means accuracy really isn't a relevant discriminator between endgame War Monk and most other units, let alone Warlocks.

I have to say, your general skepticism at 1-range OHKO/ORKOs is surprising. Physical units rely on this, and Aura Knuckles is gonna be more consistent than some of them. And nobody should really be taking counters on a late-game Player Phase unless you mess up or bad luck - if there are significant hit difficulties (and I don't foresee this being the case more often than the likes of LoR Swift Strikes), use Linked Attacks or adjutants like you would normally. It's the same kind of risk as a normal mage trying to kill a sniper or a bow knight - there is a risk, but ultimately it's manageable.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

And once again, how many of those would be better off as a War Monk/Cleric instead of Warlock/Bishop? Because that list, far as I'm concerned, is empty for reasons already mentioned.

All of them, literally all, would get higher raw attack than they would as a Warlock. If you're seeking something else from them (for example as mainly a siege tome user, or healer) then yeah don't go War Monk. If the role to be filled is magical hitter (and that is the only context I have been discussing), the Aura Knuckles build does better than Warlock. 

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except the Aura Knuckles are 1-range locked, unlike magic, meaning you're pretty much always risking retaliation (to say nothing of the fact that a mage with Caduceus or Thyrsus equals or surpasses a War Monk in terms of attack range, meaning they're rarely, if ever, at risk). So no, I don't see it as a competing build when all you can do is try to KO at 1 range knowing you're assuredly dead meat if you fail to kill for whatever reason.

When the Aura Knuckles attack twice, (and they inevitably do on Player Phase, which is what this build is for) they have higher damage output than any normal mage. If they can't KO with that, and the counter puts them at grave risk (for example they can't dodge it even with Brawl Avo +20 and the low weight of Aura Knuckles, or they can't eat the counter and survive the rest of enemy phase despite their War Monk HP growths) then they shouldn't commit to the attack. Instead, they can hit with their spell charges, or Pneuma Gale from two spaces. 

If what is needed is a mage-sniper, then you can run that build as well. Hell, the War Monk themselves can carry Caduceus/Thyrsus if they really have to (though they don't need to because you aren't constricted to one mage/magical attacker per map, and that's unlikely to be optimal anyway). I have never said all magic classes should be replaced with War Monk, or that War Monk fulfils every magical niche well. I have only ever said that it is more powerful than other magical attackers. Any and all mage-snipers will still do less damage than this build - if what is needed is range, send a magical sniper (there are only two range-boosting items in the game, so odds are you can't have more than two in an army anyway). But if a War Monk with their 6 movement can get there, then they are more likely to get the KO than a magical sniper (freeing up your other units to do literally anything else).

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

When I talk about spell loss, I don't just mean those; I also mean other goodies like Excalibur and Thoron. Also, I still think your focus on raw attack power is stupid because it ignores the fatal flaw of this - that you're having a mage try to KO at range 1 (aka, often risking retaliation) with a weapon that's not that accurate, while having the durability of wet tissue paper. I shouldn't have to point out what happens if they're unfortunate enough to whiff... also, because we're talking about a weapon with all of 2 might, I'd say that being magic screwed would make this fall apart like a house of cards (not helping matters is that War Monk has a big fat goose egg for magic). Which brings me back to the question I've been asking for a while now: why in the seven hells would I commit to a build that clearly sacrifices utility and is especially vulnerable to RNG screwage (because the moment enemies end up out of 2HKO range, this build is worthless)???

Sure, but look at the mages I listed as available for this build above (Manuela, Annette, Yuri, Anna). Manuela will lose out on a use of Warp, but Linhardt, Hapi, and Lysithea have Warp (and the latter two can get Gremory more easily). Yuri or Annette will lose 2 uses of Excalibur (6 if Annette goes Warlock/Gremory), but Linhardt and Flayn get it too and will be just as powerful if not more (and any of your bow users can do the same thing as Excalibur). Ward and Silence are niche enough for you to be OK without Manuela/Yuri/Anna using it, and Flayn/Constance will be able to use Rescue better than Anna. And I've already restricted all the Thoron users. With the possible exception of Crusher Annette, I don't think any other build will give these four units higher damage output, and they aren't losing any spell charges that other units can't cover

"Often risking retaliation" makes it sound as if you don't see a combat window allowing you to decide whether to go ahead with an attack depending on each unit's damage output. If they can't kill without serious risk, do something else - but if they can't kill, none of your mages can. And Aura Knuckles is certainly not less accurate than most spells - the risk in using them is not higher than with all other gauntlets, brave weapons, and brave combat arts, and most players would happily use those. 

As for magic screwage, it's never not possible, whether for War Monk or Warlock. But the threshold for kills at endgame is (conservatively speaking, excluding bosses/monsters) 60HP, 25-28 Rsl. That's 88 raw attack required for normal enemies. If we took my previous calculations to stand, S+ Warlock Lysithea would need to reach the stat threshold of 52 for 14 more mag atk (Defiant Mag/Macuil battalion gives +8 - either run both or run one and give her +6 from stat boosters) which gets her to 88 with Hades - ultimately possible for her, but still a big effort (and it only just gets to the threshold). And Hubert's the only other mage you could reasonably expect to pull off this pure mage OHKO build - no other mage has a chance unless they're extremely RNG-blessed and/or you grind/garden for stat-boosters to feed only to them the entire time.

The alternative is that you could use magic + brave combinations such as Magic Bow and Hunter's Volley, Arrow of Indra + Swift Strikes, or Aura Knuckles War Monk. For the War Monk, the threshold for their magic stat is the much lower 29, given the theory I described above. Annette can easily reach this even assuming she's in Mage till Lv20 then doesn't leave War Monk between Lv20 and Lv40. Manuela still wants Fiendish Blow so she will probably spend less time in War Monk for time in Priest/Mage, but she still reaches 29 on average by Lv40. Yuri and Anna will need a bit of help (their average at Lv40 with Mage>War Monk progression is around 24) but battalions can fix that (Anna can still get C rank authority by endgame despite her weakness, which is enough). Yuri, Anna and Manuela all have the low-ish magic growths of mixed units like Byleth/Ingrid anyway - stick any actual mage you weren't otherwise planning on using for endgame through this build and they won't need battalion/stat-booster help to reach the thresholds. So it turns out that not only is this build actually quite strong against RNG screwage, but it will more consistently get mage units to ORKO thresholds than pure magic classes. The build theory I described above expected 94 mag atk for even average mages - CF Dimitri requires 96 mag atk to be ORKO'd, and he's one of the toughest human enemies in that route. So Aura Knuckles War Monk is actually more likely to reach boss-level thresholds than Lysithea or any other pure mage.

And finally as a point of accuracy, War Monk has 5% magic growths, not 0% (which is what I assume "War Monk has a big fat goose egg for magic" means?)

Edited July 14, 2020 by haarhaarhaar