Kaze vs Jakob, who is the best unit?

[mangasdeouf]

Hi,

Today I'm thinking of why should I ever use Kaze when Jakob has way more utility, damage, skill access, pair up bonuses for Corrin, doesn't need Rinkah's support just to have a decent strength, has natural access to a mirror healing skill, tomebreaker to completely shit on tome users, base 6 movement, no movement restriction on desert tiles, better stat distribution including caps (dat -2 str mod really destroys Kaze forever in my book)...and he has 2 more levels to grow out of his bases (with better base strength and def than Kaze and a royal lead in luck at any point in the game), his major problem, speed, being solved by fixing a shuriken instead of a dagger on him and alternating between healing and debuffing/Killing to level up, while Kaze has only access to combat exp.

What are your arguments in favor of Jakob or Kaze? Outside from Poison strike, which I already know of, is good, but better used by other units who can actually damage all the ennemy types, not only mages. This is an all routes contest, even if Jakob is the clear winner in revelations due to being overlevelled thanks to several more chapters of utility duty before Kaze joins/rejoins.

I should add that in Rev I just put base Jakob with +hp/-res Corrin as his C-support backpack and he solo'd ch7 at base with an iron shuriken>steel shuriken, going the Northern path first to grab Gunter for the Western path, used Gunter instead of MU as Jakob's backpack (my Jakob has15 str and 18 spd instead of 12-13/14-15 at level 12 after this, but got -1 def and -2 HP), without any tonic other than the free HP tonic given in the opening maps. all this while keeping him as a butler, AKA one of the weakest physical classes in the game, both offensively and defensively (25 HP 9 def at level 12 ain't anything special, even the supposed 26.5/10 ain't very good). PEMN, but being able to do this from level 1 should mean something still, especially when you fight ninjas on about every portion of the map on top of cavaliers/archers/fighters/lance fighters/Knights and a few samurais who are totally not a problem.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I voted for Jakob.

Long-term, Kaze has better combat because of his incredible speed and quite good res, while Jakob doesn't have any standout stats. That said, aside from that, Jakob is quite a bit better IMO.

-He can heal, most obviously.
-If you don't value his healing you can reclass him to Paladin and get some quite strong earlygame combat.
-You can also reclass him to Strategist at Level 13 and get Inspiration super-duper-early, and indeed various other skills super-early depending on his A+ and S support. Inspiration is particularly notable because it stacks with Gentlehomme

All of this assumes FCorrin, of course; if Jakob joins later he loses a lot of what makes him good and I'd certainly consider Kaze overall better then, though Jakob can still be a decent staff-and-Inspiration-bot.

[Armchair General]

Kaze for lethality and poison spam. With Jacob, you have to sacrifice an attack for healing...And his Butler skills steer him towards healing anyways.

[Shadow Mir]

I would say Kaze because Jakob depends on playing as a specific gender to be good. He loses most, if not all his luster otherwise, as it’s much harder to justify fielding him when he comes well behind the curve (and the units you’ve been using up to that point, at that).

[AnonymousSpeed]

I like Jakob more. He's basically your Jeigan and does a good job taking out and debuffing enemies well before Kaze joins. Access to staves makes Jacob better, not worse. You can use him a staffbot, a combat unit, or both. His reclassing options are much more interesting and useful than Kaze's, since he levels up much faster as a promoted unit. Paladin Jakob is a powerhouse, and with the right supports he can get whatever Level 15 skill you like before most of the army is promoted.

This is based on the assumption you have female Corrin, but he's better than Felicia so if we're assuming IDEAL PLAY then you'll have Jakob first.

Kaze has his advantages of course, locktouch and +1 move on pair up and Poison Strike makes him even better for softening up kills for other units, but he joins later with skills that are less critical. Jakob is a healer and a great combat unit and helps feed kills while you're still trying to get your team off the ground.

[Landmaster]

Kaze IMO, he's got Lethality and Poison Strike and is faster to get off doubles. I feel like there's plenty of other units that can heal that Jakob, at least in my runs, was never really needed with his extra utility.

[starburst]

How is healing a plus for Jakob if Elise is around? Do you all use Wyvern Elise? Joshcja would be proud. Or do you use two healers early game? What for?

On my campaigns, Jakob’s entire healing contributions are: one heal to Corrin on Ch 2, and one heal to whomever got hit crossing the bridge of Ch 3. That is the entire, detailed log. From Ch 6 onwards, Elise is there.
In the mean time, Kaze invariably ends Ch 5 at level 7-8, precisely because he wipes the map.

I do not get it. People praise Jakob based on his re-classing through Heart Seals and Partner Seals, but disregard Odin, even though he can tank the entire east side of Ch 10 as a mere Dark Mage (which is the one tricky map in the first 16 chapters.) How is “investing” Seals on Jakob better than handing some kills to some units to catch up? Because Paladin Jakob makes early game easier? I am sorry, but as tricky as Conquest can be, its early game is rather easy anyway, specially on replays. You need less units than you are given; and if Camilla is not necessary, Jakob certainly is not either.

Kaze is the better unit because he has a clear niche (Res tank) during the entire game and invaluable utilities: de-buffing, Poison Strike, locks, Speed bonus, +1 Movement bonus, Hunter’s Knife. And he does it all at no investment!

If you are trying Conquest for the first time and want an easier experience for early game, re-classing Jakob helps you. But as soon as Silas or Sophie catch up, they both will outclass him. And by Ch 12-13, all of your core units will be more powerful than he is.

Luckily for me, I do not have this dilemma; Jakob somehow always commits suicide by Ch 6-7. Such a tragic character.

[samthedigital]

12 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is based on the assumption you have female Corrin, but he's better than Felicia so if we're assuming IDEAL PLAY then you'll have Jakob first.

I'm not so sure that Jakob first should be assumed with ideal play. He is better than Felicia, but there's always the possibility that with 'ideal play' male Corrin's Friendship Seal options are better or that Jakob does not matter.

4 hours ago, starburst said:

Because Paladin Jakob makes early game easier? I am sorry, but as tricky as Conquest can be, its early game is rather easy anyway, specially on replays. You need less units than you are given; and if Camilla is not necessary, Jakob certainly is not either.

I'm not sure why you're trying to turn Jakob's early game into a negative. It doesn't matter if he's necessary or not; that does not make him any worse as a unit.

Quote

If you are trying Conquest for the first time and want an easier experience for early game, re-classing Jakob helps you.

If he helps on the first playthrough why can he not help in subsequent playthroughs? It's not as if using him as a crutch early on in the game will hurt other units that much in the long term.

[starburst]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I'm not sure why you're trying to turn Jakob's early game into a negative. It doesn't matter if he's necessary or not; that does not make him any worse as a unit.

Because he fades off. Any of your core units will surpass him by mid-game. Making early game easier is less valuable than the contributions to late game.

As soon as Ch 12, Kaze or Archer Mozu make it easier to kill Ryoma.
What about Ch 13? Kaze or Nina or Anna or Elise wipe the entire left side, while Odin and Ophelia take on the eastern bridge.
Ch 14? Bows and Hunter's Knife.
Ch 16? Kaze or Odin or Ophelia take on the northwestern side of the ship (the only specialised one, the rest of the map suits anyone.)
Ch 17? Bows and any two Javelin/ Hand Axe wielders. Calamity Gale lets Odin or Ophelia walk around in circles. Sniper Mozu always hits Can't Touch This.
Ch 18? Armour Slayer/ Hammer against the common Generals; Beast Killer or bows against the Paladins; Lightning against the Fat Twins; Kaze or Elise or Anna for the Sorcerers Room.
Ch 20? Bows and Hunter's Knife against the fliers. Kaze or Anna or Elise against the mages. Bows or Tomes or Axes against the Lancers. Calamity Gale or a Sniper against Pimp Fuga.
(Ch 19 does not matter because it is about positioning and not about the units themselves. Hero Silas or Sniper Mozu or Paladin Sophie or Mechanist Anna or whatever Velouria or Wyvern Lord Selena or Noble Cornflakes play the exact same role.)

That is the entire mid-game.
I can go on, but I fail to see re-classed Jakob's niche. When does he bring something that his teammates cannot?

- "Well, he is a good 'filler'." - I do not use those, I need ten units fulfilling their roles.
- "Oh, he is a great 'backpack' for Corrin." - I do not use them.
- "Wait, he can be a decent 'bot'." - I do not use them either.

 

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If he helps on the first playthrough why can he not help in subsequent playthroughs? It's not as if using him as a crutch early on in the game will hurt other units that much in the long term.

Because by the end of your first campaign you will have seen how other units behave and how powerful they can be. It is then easier to realise how superfluous re-classed Jakob is.

Edited June 15, 2020 by starburst
Grammar.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Because he fades off. Any of your core units will surpass him by mid-game. Making early game easier is less valuable than the contributions to late game.

News flash: early game is harder BECAUSE your units aren't hardened badasses yet. Why do you deny this? Because this is why the likes of Mozu tend to be looked down on.

1 hour ago, starburst said:

As soon as Ch 12, Kaze or Archer Mozu make it easier to kill Ryoma.

What the hell is Archer Mozu going to do to Ryoma? Get herself killed? Because that's the only thing I can count on happening.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Because he fades off. Any of your core units will surpass him by mid-game. Making early game easier is less valuable than the contributions to late game.

His early game contributions are not less valuable just because he doesn't contribute that much later on in the game.

Quote

What about Ch 13? Kaze or Nina or Anna or Elise wipe the entire left side, while Odin and Ophelia take on the eastern bridge.

It's going to be a waste of time for me to go through everything, but for every single thing that you listed there are other options that exist, and many of your solutions are not the most efficient ones anyway.

Quote

Because by the end of your first campaign you will have seen how other units behave and how powerful they can be. It is then easier to realise how superfluous re-classed Jakob is.

It does not matter if his utility is superfluous or not. What is important is if he contributes to a more efficient and/or consistent clear.

Quote

- "Well, he is a good 'filler'." - I do not use those, I need ten units fulfilling their roles.
- "Oh, he is a great 'backpack' for Corrin." - I do not use them.
- "Wait, he can be a decent 'bot'." - I do not use them either.

Your responses to these questions that you made for yourself are telling. You've admitted your inability to find strategies that don't necessitate using 10 units and and an unwillingness to use certain strategies. This might make Jakob bad for your specific situation, but that does not make him a bad unit in a more capable strategist's hands.

[mangasdeouf]

Why continue to praise Kaze's mage killing attributes, when Jakob is virtually invulnerable to tomes for most of the game once he reaches level 15? send him into a mage onslaught and watch his WTA + tomebreaker ignore everything he fights, 60% base avoid if it's not more in Fates with 0 spd/lck. Even Benny and base Effie have more than 0 speed and they're the slowest of molasses in the party for all of t1 (Effie) or forever (Benny). Kaze doesn't need to fight to pick locks, Niles has more movement just by giving him 2 or 3 level ups and has access to 9 movement or 7 + staff utility and better damage output than Kaze through shining bow. Kaze's pair up bonuses aside some speed are trash and Niles gives speed already, like Selena, Charlotte, Arthur (who both also give 4 str at base), Keaton, and so on.

Kaze is a nice pal, loyal like Silas, serviceable, but by no way is he a useful unit by himself, since he struggles at killing the squishiest ennemies without forged steel. If you speak of Conquest then he's outshone by basically everyone in the cast (outside from Odin maybe) who's been used for 3-5 full chapters before he joined back (even then with lv 11-12 rejoin he still deals very low damage and struggles doubling a good portion of the ennemies with steel shuriken, not even mentionning steel daggers that're the only legitimately forgeable ones in CQ). Kaze still get killed in 2 hits by any physical weapon wielder at any point of the game, and I wouldn't be surprized if he died from a crit facing a sniper since his luck is pityful forever unless you give him the Arthur treatment (at least Arthur deals damage with bronze weapons so he doesn't need permanent stat boosters just not to die while still dealing damage).

In Revelations, he's unusable because of early promoted ennemies he can't even scratch without Rinkah's support or +2 steel forge.

In Birthright, you get 2 better ninjas, one who can tank a few hits until he's under 50% then you don't want him to take a hit (Saizo) and the other who can tank just as well as Saizo at base, but who can actually kill everything in t1 by capping her insane strength, actually being able to double while dealing so much damage, also able to take out mages without a scratch and her base def ensures she never becomes a real glass cannon like Hana. Think of it like that: just to reach Kagero's base strength level 10, Kaze needs to reach his own cap, which is unlikely to happen before level 16 if not 20. Meanwhile a level 20 Kagero has a whole shurikenfaire worth of strength over him, she actually has a personal skill even if niche, Kaze can't even use his without being pair up fodder, and if you take the way of archer Kagero, she gets +2 str from archer, +4 damage from Quick draw and +5 from yumi, so a whopping 11 damage on PP (it's not like you use Kagero much on EP anyway). With that Kagero also reaches 80% str growth and an even more insane cap, while retaining 65% spd growth.

Kaze falls off when mid game comes to the corner (and in CQ he comes just before mid game, being screwed forever), has low early game potential/use outside opening chests and doing the same combat as Jakob, needs a dedicated str pair up or illiegitimate forge just to be able to kill something at all, sometimes both, his res isn't that impressive for chapter 12 (since he rejoins after chapter 11 ends in CQ), and will never reach anything close to invulnerability against magic damage since he struggles at dealing more than chip damage, his only combat use is poison strike, which Laslow can also do but with better mid/late game since he has a strength growth.

Jakob, while Kaze plays catch up to everyone else by feeding him more exp than Odin + Mozu put together, is stacking t2 skills, both supportive and for himself, can let MU take -7 damage and +15 avoid as his backpack just by heart sealing him once, making Corrin a second Benny with potential speed, damage and actual avoid. Jakob can be a spear master, a berserker, a great knight, a sniper, a swordmaster, etc. while everyone else is still in t1, benefitting from both class bases/bonuses and from lv 15 skills in earlygame. His late game isn' bad at all since by then he can have class changed 3x to grab so many lv 25/35 skills that it's not even funny, he basically outclasses most of the cast by doing this. He tends to be shoulder to shoulder with Camilla in terms of domination. With tomefaire to ignore mages, you can make him whatever you want, he will still only need physical bulk or high avoid to be a real tank. Guess what? He can grab any skill/class allowing him to do so while Silas still struggles to tank 3 hits, while Kaze still can't scratch to save his life and while Effie still can't OHKO nohr avoid being doubled before she begins to see the light of RNG enlight her trash speed base of 5. That's why Jakob is infinitely better than Kaze, who could be good on paper, but is a big fail for me as an unit in the actual game. If the game had FE8/FE7 easy mode ennemies, he would be a great unit, but in this game he is poop.

Being useful just to use poison strike and lockpick isn't a boon, it's a clear bane, and his reclass option is worse for him since he looses his ability to counter at range and kill mages in whatever number of turns. He needs to go mechanist to actually deal damage, and it's not even that great of a difference. Lethality is a trash skill not worth a slot and most ninja skills are mediocre, poison strike doesn't let him get experience, shurikenfaire isn't guaranteed to ever reach his skill slots since he must get so many level ups just to get there in a game where he struggles to gain experience.

Exp funnelling a bad unit can make it a decent unit, exp funnelling a good unit can make an awesome unit. Jakob benefits 10x more from each level up than Kaze and doesn't even need to fight to get exp. The fact that he can use any simple build before anyone promotes makes him the most useful unit to give ressources to. He could be better than Camilla depending on the build you give him. And he can start doing it from ch7.

Peri can do the same mage killing job as Kaze, only she can actually reach Effie level of craziness by setting up OHKOs with javelin (her personal takes care of that). And she can also shelter, has 7 move at base, potentially 8 after promotion, can grab heartseeker to make up for her skill, while maintaining a weapon she has a rank in, elbow room gives her free damage (armored blow let her activate her personal with little punishment) and her speed growth ensures she's gonna double very fast if you level her up. Mozu can ORKO any ennemy after a few level ups as an archer and as a sniper she can double and obliterate everything while retaining a good physical bulk and half decent hp/res.

Sorry for this wall of text, but I had to. After experimenting with Jakob, I know how gamechanging he can be if you're willing to let him, and it's far more gamebreaking than Camilla who doesn't have much utility or Xander who needs investment just to start doing his job well (at least if you want him to be independant like Haar). Even Jakob 2 can do this, he even comes close to learning tomebreaker and any level 35 skill you want him  to. So even Jakob 2, even though he does't have early game use, is better than Kaze.

This is personal opinion, but if you read it you will understand that some information there is absolutely objective and proves my opinion here to be in the wright, even if it's not absolutely true about everything.

[Dark Holy Elf]

12 hours ago, starburst said:

How is healing a plus for Jakob if Elise is around? Do you all use Wyvern Elise? Joshcja would be proud. Or do you use two healers early game? What for?

On my campaigns, Jakob’s entire healing contributions are: one heal to Corrin on Ch 2, and one heal to whomever got hit crossing the bridge of Ch 3. That is the entire, detailed log. From Ch 6 onwards, Elise is there.
In the mean time, Kaze invariably ends Ch 5 at level 7-8, precisely because he wipes the map.

It turns out that if you use one character as little as possible, and feed a map to a second, that the second one will turn out better!

Snark aside, nobody's forcing you to use Jakob, obviously (or any other unit in this game), but Jakob has a lot of things going for him. I already outlined his advantages in an earlier post.

Also without seals or a rapid rush to get Dwyer, Jakob(/Felicia) is your only healer in Chapter 12. Plus having two healers is often useful (many maps encourage you to divide your forces), especially when those healers also have damage-reduction auras (as both he and Elise do). I tend not to make him into a paladin myself, but it's worth noting that IF you don't value his healing, you can, and he'll be really good at it! Jakob is a valuable contributor regardless of the role you want him to play.

[Shadow Mir]

37 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

Exp funnelling a bad unit can make it a decent unit, exp funnelling a good unit can make an awesome unit. Jakob benefits 10x more from each level up than Kaze and doesn't even need to fight to get exp. The fact that he can use any simple build before anyone promotes makes him the most useful unit to give ressources to. He could be better than Camilla depending on the build you give him. And he can start doing it from ch7.

Because using one unit as little as possible while feeding an entire map to another is completely fair, right? Also, Camilla’s guaranteed to be relevant, whilst Jakob won’t be relevant if I picked to have a male Corrin. Try again.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[starburst]

4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

It's going to be a waste of time for me to go through everything, but for every single thing that you listed there are other options that exist, and many of your solutions are not the most efficient ones anyway.

It does not matter how many options there are, what matters is that re-classed Jakob was not part of them. If he will just be there "to deliver a hit", then he has no role. Without a niche, why would one "invest" Seals on him?

 

4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

It does not matter if his utility is superfluous or not. What is important is if he contributes to a more efficient and/or consistent clear.

"... early game." You forgot to add it to the end of your sentence.
By mid-game, and specially during late-game, Hero/ Paladin Silas will have at least the same Strength as re-classed Jakob, but Silas will be defter and, more importantly, will have like ten more points of Defence. Paladin Sophie will also have at least the same Strength and Defence as re-classed Jakob, but will be defter and, more importantly, will have significantly more Speed. If re-classed Jakob was supposed to be a "tank", Silas is better; if he was supposed to be a Player-Phase unit, Sophie is better, for she will hit as hard, but more accurately and with more chances to double. Selena and Effie and Velouria are also better than him at both roles.

Ones does not need various "tanks" in Conquest, and since almost everyone uses Xander and Camilla, that role is covered. Now, the great majority of the game takes place on Player Phase, and Player-Phase units must either hit hard, like Effie or a Berserker, or have relatively high might and double, like Snipers or Bow Knights, or target Resistance, like Sorcerers or Elise or Anna. Re-classed Jakob does none of that by mid-game. But all of his teammates do!

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It turns out that if you use one character as little as possible, and feed a map to a second, that the second one will turn out better!

Snark aside, nobody's forcing you to use Jakob, obviously (or any other unit in this game), but Jakob has a lot of things going for him. I already outlined his advantages in an earlier post.

I know that you were joking, but think about this: Cornflakes one-hits every single enemy on Chapter 5 and gets 1 Exp per kill. She cannot complete the map alone, nor can she do it in two turns or so. Thus, why not let Kaze take the Experience? It takes him 7-8 turns, and it is not that Corrin weakens the enemies (she one-hits them all) and lets Kaze take the kill, Kaze does it all by himself. Moreover, if you replaced Kaze with Jakob, he would not be able to clean the map; he does not have the stats! Even though they are at the same level.
I let Kaze wipe that map for fun, even if I do not use him during the campaign. But it is not that crazy, is it?

Unlike Jakob, I actually like Xander as a character, and I am indifferent to Camilla. Let us say that they are great units, not equal, but all great. Well, not using them has showed me the strengths of other units and how low some thresholds actually are. Some people cannot imagine a map without Xander or Camilla, but it all goes just fine.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

It does not matter how many options there are, what matters is that re-classed Jakob was not part of them. If he will just be there "to deliver a hit", then he has no role. Without a niche, why would one "invest" Seals on him?

Refer to the last thing I said in my last post as it applies here too.

Quote

By mid-game, and specially during late-game, Hero/ Paladin Silas will have at least the same Strength as re-classed Jakob, but Silas will be defter and, more importantly, will have like ten more points of Defence. Paladin Sophie will also have at least the same Strength and Defence as re-classed Jakob, but will be defter and, more importantly, will have significantly more Speed. If re-classed Jakob was supposed to be a "tank", Silas is better; if he was supposed to be a Player-Phase unit, Sophie is better, for she will hit as hard, but more accurately and with more chances to double. Selena and Effie and Velouria are also better than him at both roles.

You're either ignoring what I said earlier or missing the point. It does not matter if Jakob is useless later on in the game, so it would be disingenuous to compare his performance to other units then. If you want to discredit his early game contributions you would have to establish that using him is detrimental in the long term.

Quote

"... early game." You forgot to add it to the end of your sentence.

I know that you're trying to be pedantic, but it doesn't actually matter if I add that line to either one of my sentences.

Edited June 16, 2020 by samthedigital

[AnonymousSpeed]

7 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Your responses to these questions that you made for yourself are telling. You've admitted your inability to find strategies that don't necessitate using 10 units and and an unwillingness to use certain strategies. This might make Jakob bad for your specific situation, but that does not make him a bad unit in a more capable strategist's hands.

More politely stated, all because you do choose not to use a tool doesn't mean it isn't a good tool.

2 hours ago, starburst said:

Ones does not need various "tanks" in Conquest, and since almost everyone uses Xander and Camilla, that role is covered. Now, the great majority of the game takes place on Player Phase, and Player-Phase units must either hit hard, like Effie or a Berserker, or have relatively high might and double, like Snipers or Bow Knights, or target Resistance, like Sorcerers or Elise or Anna. Re-classed Jakob does none of that by mid-game. But all of his teammates do!

He can do a lot of that in the early game though, when very few of his teammates can. He's around for many chapters where Xander and Camilla are not and unlike Xander will actually double. Even using puny daggers he'll still deal more damage per round than pretty much everyone else during the early game.

11 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You're either ignoring what I said earlier or missing the point. It does not matter if Jakob is useless later on in the game, so it would be disingenuous to compare his performance to other units then. If you want to discredit his early game contributions you would have to establish that using him is detrimental in the long term.

I know that you're trying to be pedantic, but it doesn't actually matter if I add that line to either one of my sentences.

I'd sort of be like trying to say Marcus is bad in FE6 because he falls off around the middle of the game.

Yeah, Marcus won't be as good long term as Perceval. He won't be as good long term as Alan or Lance. However, the reason Marcus is good is because he's far and away your best unit for the first handful of chapters. The amount of trouble he saves you early on is way more than Perceval will be saving you later in the game.

Jakob is your best unit for several chapters, and his contributions for those chapters are extremely good. He's not as much of a cornerstone as Marcus, but a darn solid piece of the foundation. While Conquest manages to have a better difficulty curve than the reverse difficulty curve in most FE games, trouble saved is trouble saved and Jakob can save you quite a bit, like a mini Jeigan Marcus. Except I'd argue that Jakob also has the advantage of remaining pretty decent (if not quite good) for the whole game.

[starburst]

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

You're either ignoring what I said earlier or missing the point. It does not matter if Jakob is useless later on in the game, so it would be disingenuous to compare his performance to other units then. If you want to discredit his early game contributions you would have to establish that using him is detrimental in the long term.

As I have told you before, it is infinitely easier to doubt something that to prove it. Thus, go ahead, do the numbers and show us how re-classed Jakob does in fact have unique contributions that would be otherwise unattainable by the rest of the party to meet the desired thresholds early game. Whatever those numbers may be, they will not matter once Camilla joins, which is three chapters after he was re-classed. But let us go along with your argument.
You can even kill Camilla on Ch 10, I do not use her anyway, so that re-classed Jakob will have more chances to "shine." Do the numbers. And by the time his teammates class-change (Ch 13-14), they will have the same or better statistics than he does, and it will be even more difficult to prove your point. But, again, let us go along and see what you show.

Have you never noticed that Paladin Jakob is, at best, 2-points ahead of Cavalier Silas? That is one Tonic or one Meal or one pair-up bonus away from any threshold. Silas will still have better Defence, but less Resistance (and Luck, I guess.) By the time Silas promotes in Ch 13-14, the gap difference will be null, and re-classed Jakob will only lead in Resistance.

Since this already happened the last time that we spoke, you will most likely say that you do not have the time or the will to prove something that you "know" it is true. Well, it goes both ways, mate; I also "know" that what I say is true. So, here we are.

 

10 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I know that you're trying to be pedantic, but it doesn't actually matter if I add that line to either one of my sentences.

Nah, I was not teasing you. Stating "early game" mattered because it was important to my argument: Whatever unique contributions re-classed Jakob can provide are only relevant early-game. At beast, he may make easier the already easiest part of the game.

I would still take Kaze instead of Jakob. He is unique, has a clear niche in various sections in mid- and late-game, and requires no investment.

 

10 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

More politely stated, all because you do choose not to use a tool doesn't mean it isn't a good tool.

Follow me on this example: we both, and probably we all, agree that Xander and Camilla are great units, right? We could discuss about their ranking, but any argument would start by acknowledging that they already are great units. Well, within this greatness, it may be possible for us to give them a score. Who do you think will give them a higher greatness score, he who uses them whenever possible or he who never does?
It is partially rhetorical, but an honest question.

I am sorry that I cannot follow your example of FF6, for I am still not that familiar with it. 😬

[Shadow Mir]

37 minutes ago, starburst said:

Nah, I was not teasing you. Stating "early game" mattered because it was important to my argument: Whatever unique contributions re-classed Jakob can provide are only relevant early-game. At beast, he may make easier the already easiest part of the game.

I see you have yet to address my point countering your claim that the earlygame is easy. Because said point counters this as well. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

Since this already happened the last time that we spoke, you will most likely say that you do not have the time or the will to prove something that you "know" it is true. Well, it goes both ways, mate; I also "know" that what I say is true. So, here we are.

You're under the assumption that my argument is predicated on numbers showing that Jakob is a lot better than another unit, so you're still missing the point.

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Thus, go ahead, do the numbers and show us how re-classed Jakob does in fact have unique contributions that would be otherwise unattainable by the rest of the party to meet the desired thresholds early game. Whatever those numbers may be, they will not matter once Camilla joins, which is three chapters after he was re-classed.

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Have you never noticed that Paladin Jakob is, at best, 2-points ahead of Cavalier Silas? That is one Tonic or one Meal or one pair-up bonus away from any threshold. Silas will still have better Defence, but less Resistance (and Luck, I guess.) By the time Silas promotes in Ch 13-14, the gap difference will be null, and re-classed Jakob will only lead in Resistance.

I don't think that I ever directly compared Jakob to anyone else; you're the one who cares about that. If Jakob functions as a good unit early on in the game without having to spend too much time training him then he should be credited for that. It doesn't matter if Silas can perform the same role or that Camilla might do a specific job much better as long as Jakob can do something well.

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Nah, I was not teasing you. Stating "early game" mattered because it was important to my argument: Whatever unique contributions re-classed Jakob can provide are only relevant early-game.

The important thing to take away from my message is to evaluate Jakob for what he is capable of doing. It doesn't matter at what point in the game it is, and it's not as if Jakob is completely useless later on in the game.

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At beast, he may make easier the already easiest part of the game.

This is simply not true. You might find that the game gets progressively more difficult or something like that, but that's because of the self-imposed restrictions you place on yourself. I generally find that Fire Emblem tends to get easier as I get more tools to complete the game. More specifically in the case of Conquest though most chapters later on in the game can be cheesed without much effort.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Perhaps this is a bit out there, since the discussion is ongoing but,

in what setting or what conditions are we comparing Kaze – Jacob?

Conquest, Birthright, Revelation; Normal, Hard, Lunatic? Which one? Do we consider their respective Recruitment? Do we account for Servant 1 and 2 or only Jacob 1 – Kaze?

Also, why are we comparing a fairly specialised unit against what is probably best described as an Allrounder who can kind of do whatever you need him to?

Also, though this probably goes against the intent of the topic, but I am not sure there is a particular reason to not have both of them on the team considering that they don´t really compete for their, what I would say, respective roles, no?

[starburst]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

This is simply not true. You might find that the game gets progressively more difficult or something like that, but that's because of the self-imposed restrictions you place on yourself. I generally find that Fire Emblem tends to get easier as I get more tools to complete the game. More specifically in the case of Conquest though most chapters later on in the game can be cheesed without much effort.

I may disagree about how easy late-game Conquest really is, but you are right about how my perception may be very particular and I am simply used to it.

 

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If Jakob functions as a good unit early on in the game without having to spend too much time training him then he should be credited for that. It doesn't matter if Silas can perform the same role or that Camilla might do a specific job much better as long as Jakob can do something well.

But the same could be said about other units promoted early. Say, Arthur promoted at Level 10 into Berserker has the exact same statistics as Paladin Jakob. Seriously, at any given level, they are the same. And that holds true during the entire game; a Level 10/20 Berserker Arthur has basically identical HP/ Str / Skl / Spd/ Def than a Level 40 Paladin Jakob. (The latter will have like a million more Luck, and will lead in Resistance.)

You are right, one thing does not negate the other, and it may well be that both re-classed Jakob and L10/1 Berserker Arthur are helpful, specially early in the game. Then why is one constantly mentioned but not all the others?
(I do not expect an answer. I did not know their statistics before this message, I just simulated an example that seemed far-fetched for contrast, and it surprised me how similar their numbers were.)

I think that I now see your points better. I would still pick Kaze.

[mangasdeouf]

For the matter of difficulty, I assume Hard of course: normal is piss easy and lunatic isn't everyone's thing.

For the argument of Jakob being equal to early promoted Arthur: Jakob has 40% more skill* (edited from Luck) than Arthur at the beginning of the game and uses more accurate weapons, can use magic weapons and physical weapons well, pick up the flame shuriken/bolt naginata from castle visit points if you've unlocked them, he has access to any lv 25-35 skill you want him to without gaining garbage exp per fight. Having access to +8-+20 damage skill combos in one heart seal and one partner seal, or to skills negating damage like armored blow while everyone still takes 8 damage just for engaging an ennemy, means he's instantly better at any job you want him to fulfill as long as you choose your build before then. He even gives you a free healer with promoted skills as early as your build and support option allow it, with a good exp chapter even though I find the ennemies to be as overwhelming and overstatted as Awakening's on harder difficulties, dissuading you to do it without a few promoted  units unless you're really confident about being able to take out swarms of overstatted unpromoted and promoted ennemies.

Kaze, in the meantime, has no access to any useful skill apart from poison strike and locktouch. His offense and physical defense are garbage without any natural means of making up for it. Doubling means little when you still need high strength pair up and forges to kill anything more than unpromoted underlevelled mages. Kaze requires a ridiculous amount of investment just to exist when his join is followed by better units not much later in each path (Saizo, Kagero, Peri with a javelin, all of them are better than him by a mile and actually have a late game at all since Kaze can't damage knights forever and he lacks what is needed to threaten/soften berserkers, and steel dagger Felicia does the same job as him with debuffs but she can also flame shuriken and heal and bring support auras just like Jakob).

Jakob 2 is like 2 levels away from tombreaker, 4 levels from inspiration/5 from armored blow, and can cumulate elbow room, shelter, armored blow and tomebreaker and luna.

Edited June 17, 2020 by mangasdeouf

[Shadow Mir]

21 hours ago, starburst said:

But the same could be said about other units promoted early. Say, Arthur promoted at Level 10 into Berserker has the exact same statistics as Paladin Jakob. Seriously, at any given level, they are the same. And that holds true during the entire game; a Level 10/20 Berserker Arthur has basically identical HP/ Str / Skl / Spd/ Def than a Level 40 Paladin Jakob. (The latter will have like a million more Luck, and will lead in Resistance.)

You are right, one thing does not negate the other, and it may well be that both re-classed Jakob and L10/1 Berserker Arthur are helpful, specially early in the game. Then why is one constantly mentioned but not all the others?

Because one needs a lot of resources to even exist. Also, Arthur is very unreliable.

10 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Kaze, in the meantime, has no access to any useful skill apart from poison strike and locktouch. His offense and physical defense are garbage without any natural means of making up for it. Doubling means little when you still need high strength pair up and forges to kill anything more than unpromoted underlevelled mages. Kaze requires a ridiculous amount of investment just to exist when his join is followed by better units not much later in each path (Saizo, Kagero, Peri with a javelin, all of them are better than him by a mile and actually have a late game at all since Kaze can't damage knights forever and he lacks what is needed to threaten/soften berserkers, and steel dagger Felicia does the same job as him with debuffs but she can also flame shuriken and heal and bring support auras just like Jakob).

Saizo can only claim to compete with him in Birthright, as in Revelation he has to play catch-up. Peri can’t expect to one shot most enemies with a javelin, which I would recommend against having as your main weapon, and that’s putting aside her joining situation being so much worse in Revelation. Kagero has it worse, too.

[mangasdeouf]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because one needs a lot of resources to even exist. Also, Arthur is very unreliable.

Saizo can only claim to compete with him in Birthright, as in Revelation he has to play catch-up. Peri can’t expect to one shot most enemies with a javelin, which I would recommend against having as your main weapon, and that’s putting aside her joining situation being so much worse in Revelation. Kagero has it worse, too.

Arthur is fine as long as he isn't RNG-screwed in any way. At least his downs are workable without any pair up abuse. He can do well by himself with heling items and tonics, like most frontline units. But skills-wise he's not comparable to Jakob. Still more useful than Kaze for earlygame contributions and can be a good backpack if he falls off.

For comparisons, I thought of ninjas in BR/Rev (especially BR since in Rev not many units are even viable at all without grinding or DLC scrolls), and Peri in CQ since she joins basically at the same time as Kaze but after preparation menu, which is annoying but workable. Weaken an ennemy enough for her to kill it, equip her javelin, shelter the unit who traded the javelin, now she has her personal + elbow room activated for +7 str/mag, +4 skl/spd, hell she can even hit for 18 with the bolt naginata if you use visit points rewards. 20 str/7 magic isn't something you just ignore when it can be set for EP on a level 10 unit without any level up. With bolt naginata she can maybe double with 17 spd, 2x 18 magic damage hurts a lot, and that's with 0 base magic. Better than anything Kaze can hope for at this stage of the game since he hits on the physical side and his personal skill could as well not exist for what it's worth, just like ninja's pair up bonus, why did it have to be 3 spd 1 skl instead of 4 spd...IS please... Keaton gives the same amount of spd as a ninja, on top of 3 strength, FFS...yeah, I see some people seem to really like Kaze for some unexplicable reason, I think it's fanboyism or fangirlism, because I don't see how I'm getting anything from him unless I dedicate 3 damage ressources to him just to make him usable, not talking of long term use, this was including a pair up bot since he won't survive a single axe/bow hit with some aids skill like Quick draw that's present in both ch8 and 12 without guard stance (well he could maybe stay alive if not for the ennemies going in attack stance 24/7 all the damn game, because ennemies dealing 80% of your squishies'HP in 1 hit wasn't enough, they had to also let them attack with a pal so they could ORKO you without ever having to double).