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What determines Major or Minor Crests?

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I've always wondered what determines whether an individual has a Major Crest or a Minor Crest. Why do some people have a Major while others don't? Is it just random chance? Or is it determined by how close you are to the original Crest bearer? 

I'm sure there's no canon explanation, but I'd be interested to hear some theories.

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In terms of canon, we don't know all that much, which I suspect is deliberate. The writers probably kept things at least somewhat vague because, ultimately, this is magic that we're talking about here. Having well-defined rules of magic for a setting can certainly help with world building and immersion, having the rules be defined too precisely can also take away some of the mystique from magic itself. There's always a balancing act when writing that sort of thing, but given that one of the themes for Three Houses -- especially in Verdant Wind -- is uncovering the mysteries of the past, I think that erring on the side of preserving the mystique was a good choice.

Spoiler

We do know that the Nabateans themselves all possess major crests (Rhea, Seteth, Flayn, the Immovable, the Wind Caller). Those who are first-generation recipients of Nabatean flesh or blood also seem to have Major crests. Jeralt, Byleth, Nemesis, and Maurice all fit this. There's also some implication that this or something close to it may also apply to Yuri.

I don't recall the specific time this is mentioned in game, but I'm pretty sure we're also told that crests in general are weaker now than they used to be, with far fewer people being born with major crests and many more being born without crests despite their parents being crested. The obvious implication is that minor crests come from very dilute Nabatean blood and major crests are from much more concentrated Nabatean blood.

The problem with this idea is that there are children born with crests to parents without crests, as well as children with major crests when their parents have only minor crests (eg Felix has a major crest of Fraldarius, whereas Rodrigue has only a minor crest). So what gives? This is where we get into theory and speculation.

My theory is that when the blood that would give two different crests combine in a single person, it only manifests as a single crest, but that the crest's power can draw on the combined strength of both bloodlines. We know for certain that marriage between different noble families with different crests is common: Lorenz often talks about that sort of thing, Ingrid and Glenn were betrothed, etc. We also know that it's impossible for anyone to have two crests without unethical and dangerous human experiments. So, we know that if a couple with two different crests have kids, those kids won't inherit both crests, but it's not too much of a stretch to assume that the second crest doesn't go away entirely. In fact, we know that some people who don't have crests at all still have some trace of crest-bearing blood in them, since kids with crests can be born to those without crests. So, if the blood of the second crest is still there but isn't manifesting itself, could it be contributing to the strength of the other crest that is manifest?

Under this theory, if there are two people who both have some crest bearing blood but not strong enough for it to manifest, then their kid could inherit this from both sides and end up with stronger blood so they would have a crest. Essentially, both parents would be carriers. Or in Felix's case, he inherited the crest of Fraldarius from Rodrigue, but the inheritance from his father alone would only have been enough to make it a minor crest, but this was boosted in strength by crest bearing blood from his mother.

We also know that, when Cathrine was a student at the academy, Rhea saved her life and nurse her back to health and that Catherine doesn't really remember what happened very well. Is it possible that Rhea gave Catherine a transfusion of her own blood at this point, similarly to how she saved Jeralt's life? But wouldn't that give Catherine the crest of Seiros, as it did for Jeralt? Not necessarily. If she already had the crest of Charon, maybe Rhea's blood only served to increase the power level of that crest, turning it into a major crest. Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but it does seem plausible to me.

Finally, I think it's worth noting that crestology is a new discipline at the time of Three Houses. Hanneman is considered the father of crestology, and he's still in his fifties at the start of the game. Pretty much everything that we are told about crests should be taken with a grain of salt, because any new field of study  just isn't going to be all that reliable. Maybe there isn't actually a hard line between major crests, minor crests, and no crests, but a continuous spectrum ranging from the Nabateans themselves to "almost but not quite nothing at all", and maybe major and minor crests are just labels applied by scholars because that's the limitation of their detection ability?

 

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Following @lenticular's line of thought, it does seem like the major/minor distinction is quite arbitrary, and mainly there to delineate gameplay mechanics (i.e. major crests trigger more often than minor crests). 

There seem to be only two ways of inheriting a Crest: hereditary, and transfusion.

Transfusion

Spoiler

In the transfusion method, Crests seem to act like blood types in the real world. The average Crestless human can receive blood from a Nabatean/Crest user to gain a Crest, which is medically possible if they have no or an insignificant amount of Crest blood inside them. This is comparable to how AB blood types in the real world are 'universal recipients' and can receive blood from (almost) anyone. AB blood types also can't be transfused into anyone without an AB blood type without bringing on significant side effects (i.e. blood poisoning). If this is true for Crests, it would explain why no one is able to help heal Rhea after the events of Ch. 21 in VW - even though she has lost a lot of blood, nobody has the right blood type to donate to her, despite there being lots of Crest users in Garreg Mach (Manuela notes in the monastery that white magic is a different kind of healing to traditional medicine, which is presumably why priests can't help either). It would also explain why Edelgard's siblings and so many citizens of the Ordelia territory died, but not why Edelgard or Lysithea survived. Anyone who receives a different type of blood will have strong adverse reactions, which Edelgard and Lysithea both report, but it's unclear what is different about either of them that they shouldn't suffer the same fate. Potentially it's the fact that they already bear a Crest, which somehow increased their tolerance to the foreign blood enough to survive into early adulthood?

As noted above, the person you transfuse from affects the strength of the Crest you acquire. Which would suggest that there is at least one further fact about blood apart from its type that dictates what kind of Crest you get from transfusion - but it may go beyond the difference between Nabatean and inherited blood (indeed, what would that difference even be?). For example, both Edelgard and Lysithea received major Crests post-transfusion, even though in at least Edelgard's case TWSITD did not have any supply of Sothis' blood. They did, however, have Nemesis' blood. Putting aside questions of why and how Nemesis' blood might still have been usable, it's unexpected that a first-gen Crest user would be able to supply another human with a Major Crest. There is clearly some further rule to transfusion that the game doesn't clarify.

Hereditary

Spoiler

As for hereditary inheritance, Crests seem to act like dominant/recessive genes in people today. The parents' genes define the range of blood types it is possible for a child to have, but they do not guarantee that a child will have the same blood type as their parents. Which explains why some nobles don't have Crests but their children/parents do. It seems like Crests are themselves a recessive gene, so it isn't always preserved from generation to generation, when it is crowded out by a dominant gene. However, if one parent has the recessive gene linked to a Crest, and the other parent has a different recessive gene (say, linked to a different Crest), that seems like a recipe for a minor Crest. And if both parents have the same recessive gene, that's a recipe for a Major Crest. Of course, the above is a very simplified picture of genetics, and it's likely that if this is true there'd be a group of inter-related genes at work. It's also probably true that other parts of an individual's genetic makeup affect their ability to pass on/inherit Crests - Hanneman, for example, notes that his family line are rich in Crests (his father was a major Indech, his grandfather a minor Indech) but his sister was unable to bear Crest children. It would also explain why there are multiple Crests lurking in the same bloodlines (House Riegan is an offshoot of House Blaiddyd, for example). But this genetics theory doesn't really square with the transfusion method - normal blood transfusions don't change your genetic makeup, and a blood transfusion patient doesn't take on any characteristics of their blood donor. 

 

Note 1: Crest Stones occupy a strange place in this system. We are led to believe that Crest Stones are the hearts of Nabateans, and can transform incompatible humans into Crest Beasts. However, the Crest Stones that the Flame Emperor attempts to steal in Ch. 11 explicitly do not have this effect - when you obtain them, they can't be used, and when you kill someone who holds them, nothing happens to them apart from death. Which would suggest that Crest Stones might have to undergo some further process to have the monster-making effect (which is what TWSITD were experimenting on in Part I). This technology has apparently progressed far enough to turn Crest users into Crest beasts (hence Edelgard in AM endgame), although how this was possible is again left unclear. Somehow, Rhea also knows how to modify Crest Stones in the right way, because Dedue and the Faerghus soldiers of CF Ch.17 can also transform after obtaining those stones from the Church. With the exception of Edelgard, none of these artificial monsters have Crests, either.

This picture is further complicated by the existence of the NG+ Crest Stones. While it's fairly likely that these are just gameplay mechanics rather than story-related, they are called "Dragon Signs" and provide a Crest effect to non-Crest users and Crest users alike. This includes enabling the relevant combat art for a Relic, preventing curse damage from Relics, and providing a significantly diminished chance to trigger the battle effects of that Crest (see mainsite for exact details). If there is a lore-based explanation for them, they'd have to explain what they are and how they're different from the Crest Stones/Crest Stone fragments that we encounter throughout the series.

 

Note 2: It's unclear exactly what the evolutionary purpose of crests were in the first place - Linhardt's Byleth support IIRC notes that crests are pretty much useless outside of battle, which would suggest (assuming that Crests originally arose from some kind of Darwinian process) that the Nabateans were a more warlike race than we were led to believe. It's also unclear why a Nabatean's fighting ability is automatically linked to or enhanced by its blood type, or why their bodies/hearts should react (as shown with Yuri in his paralogue, by emitting an audible tone) to the presence of blood of the same crest type, even when the blood is not in physical contact. Of course, without more info not much can be said about any of those things.

Edited by haarhaarhaar

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Both your replies have been very interesting, thank you!

Hopefully IS decides to expand on this, perhaps in some extra DLC, a sequel/prequel, or in something else entirely. Until then, all we can do is speculate, I suppose.

Either way, both of your theories have given me a lot to think about, I appreciate the replies.

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Spoiler

 

On 6/19/2020 at 11:41 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

But this genetics theory doesn't really square with the transfusion method - normal blood transfusions don't change your genetic makeup, and a blood transfusion patient doesn't take on any characteristics of their blood donor.

Yeah, this is why I don't feel happy drawing too much comparison with real life genetics. This is such a huge difference that it makes me think there must be something going on that's completely alien to our understanding of genetics. Maybe Nabatean physiology is sufficiently different from ours that some sort of horizontal gene transfer actually is possible? Maybe their immune system can work somehat like viruses, co-opting human cells for their own purpose, and the crests they leave behind are similar to endogenous retroviruses? Maybe this could be related to how crest stones transform people into demonic beasts? It would be an interesting line of speculation, but goes beyond what is reasonable to assume was intentional by the game's writers and also beyond my knowledge of genetics, so I'll stop my speculation there.

On 6/19/2020 at 11:41 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Of course, the above is a very simplified picture of genetics, and it's likely that if this is true there'd be a group of inter-related genes at work.

Maybe a large group of genes that determine crest strength, but then only a single gene for crest type? That would fit in with some of my ideas, and also explain how Flayn and Seteth have different crests and how House Riegan can be a cadet branch of House Blaiddyd, for instance.

Drifting very slightly off topic here, but I also wonder how much connection there is between different crests that have identical in-game effects. At first, I thought that maybe they might literally be the same thing but given different names due to in-world traditions, but then I remembered that there is one in-game difference: how they interact with heroes' relics. The crests of Goneril and Cichol are otherwise identical, but that still doesn't let Seteth use Apocalyptic Flame if you give him Freikugel. Just one more mystery of crests that we will probably never know, I guess.

 

 

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22 hours ago, lenticular said:

Maybe Nabatean physiology is sufficiently different from ours that some sort of horizontal gene transfer actually is possible? Maybe their immune system can work somehat like viruses, co-opting human cells for their own purpose, and the crests they leave behind are similar to endogenous retroviruses? Maybe this could be related to how crest stones transform people into demonic beasts? It would be an interesting line of speculation, but goes beyond what is reasonable to assume was intentional by the game's writers and also beyond my knowledge of genetics, so I'll stop my speculation there.

This is really interesting - I hadn't even stopped to consider how strange it is that a different species can donate blood to humans without killing/maiming them. It would make a perverse kind of sense if Crests were actually a genetic virus that got spread to humans. But yeah, expanding this further would probably be more wishful thinking than not.

22 hours ago, lenticular said:

Maybe a large group of genes that determine crest strength, but then only a single gene for crest type? That would fit in with some of my ideas, and also explain how Flayn and Seteth have different crests and how House Riegan can be a cadet branch of House Blaiddyd, for instance.

Yeah Flayn and Seteth definitely need explanation. I mean, it isn't inconceivable that Flayn's mother was Nabatean and had Flayn's crest - it was just named after Cethleann instead of her mother. Or the new Crest was the result of a mutation of the gene for Crest type. Having a large group of genes determine Crest strength might also help explain the difference in activation rates between different Major/Minor Crests.

22 hours ago, lenticular said:

I also wonder how much connection there is between different crests that have identical in-game effects. At first, I thought that maybe they might literally be the same thing but given different names due to in-world traditions, but then I remembered that there is one in-game difference: how they interact with heroes' relics. The crests of Goneril and Cichol are otherwise identical, but that still doesn't let Seteth use Apocalyptic Flame if you give him Freikugel. Just one more mystery of crests that we will probably never know, I guess.

Yeah I've wondered about this too. Originally I just figured it was like how the colour of a person's skin can be the same as another person's, despite different genes being at work in both of them. The combination of genes has the same effect, even though the individual genes in each of them are different. But if the type of Crest is related to just one gene (which actually seems more likely than not in this genetics theory) then there's no explaining it beyond the fact that multiple genes/Crests just do have the same effect. I guess that isn't the most bitter pill to swallow, but it would mean we have to turn somewhere else to explain the interaction between Relic and Crest. Maybe if Relics are made of Nabatean bone, then they still possess the bone marrow inside of them that produces blood/has blood-making stem cells, and therefore a sample of blood within them, and it's blood calling out to blood? Still doesn't explain the tone effect though, and I'm also wandering into over-speculation now. 

 

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On 6/19/2020 at 12:19 AM, lenticular said:

 

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We do know that the Nabateans themselves all possess major crests (Rhea, Seteth, Flayn, the Immovable, the Wind Caller). Those who are first-generation recipients of Nabatean flesh or blood also seem to have Major crests. Jeralt, Byleth, Nemesis, and Maurice all fit this. There's also some implication that this or something close to it may also apply to Yuri.

 

Not necessary actually, all the cardinals only has minor crests despite

Spoiler

they received blood directly from Rhea.

Which makes Jeralt's circumstance even more unique.*

The most obvious speculation is the crest power is correlated how much blood they received from Nabatean.

 

Spoiler

* I have so many questions on the past of Jeralt.

Like why among all people Rhea saved him?(we never met other Seiros crest bearing knights)

Why does Jeralt has major crests?

How long has Jeralt served Rhea?

How did Jeralt conceal his long life? Did he faked his death like Rhea did?

Is Jeralt even his real name? (especially if he too faked death several times)

Why was there no record about him (or his alter egos) in the past being the strongest knight lived?

Why did Rhea trust him so much after he betrayed her and burn down the monastery?

Why did Jeralt keep using his "real name" during exile? How could you conceal yourself from church leading one of most prominent merc group named after yourself?

Maybe I should start a new thread for these...

 

Edited by Timlugia

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2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not necessary actually, all the cardinals only has minor crests despite

  Hide contents

they received blood directly from Rhea

I'm pretty sure you've got this confused. I mean, I'm fairly sure all of them had Major Crests, although I can't remember where exactly I got that info from so am happy to suspend judgement for now.

However, even assuming they only had Minor Crests, there isn't positive evidence to indicate that the Four Apostles were for sure 1st-generation. The resurrection ritual happened nearly two centuries after the war against Nemesis, which means that while they could be 1st-gen, they also might not be. If they were 1st-gen, it's likely that they did have Major Crests (because on top of @lenticular's examples there's also the 10 Elites that you face in VW endgame who have Major Crests). And if they weren't 1st-gen, then obviously they don't affect this question.

It is also extremely, extremely unlikely that they received blood from Rhea (since they don't have the Crest of Seiros, and there is no record of them getting a transfusion of blood for any other reason). 

2 hours ago, Timlugia said:

The most obvious speculation is the crest power is correlated how much blood they received from Nabatean.

Putting aside questions about Nabatean physiology, humans in the real world replace blood cells after three months. So if humans in Fodlan have anything like our biology, then in order to continue bearing a Crest they'd have to have some way to continue making Nabatean blood, or the vector that actually carries the Crest attributes isn't the blood itself.

Or it might be the case that Nabatean blood is weird and different, and somehow stays in the system permanently, but that raises a whole host of other questions. Does that mean the strength of one's Crest changes depending on how much the bearer bleeds (gameplay suggests not)? How about the case of Edelgard getting a Major Crest, and therefore blood, from (probably) Nemesis - that can't be explained by this system. Point being, things are a little more complex than a first look suggests.

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13 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I'm pretty sure you've got this confused. I mean, I'm fairly sure all of them had Major Crests, although I can't remember where exactly I got that info from so am happy to suspend judgement for now.

However, even assuming they only had Minor Crests, there isn't positive evidence to indicate that the Four Apostles were for sure 1st-generation. The resurrection ritual happened nearly two centuries after the war against Nemesis, which means that while they could be 1st-gen, they also might not be. If they were 1st-gen, it's likely that they did have Major Crests (because on top of @lenticular's examples there's also the 10 Elites that you face in VW endgame who have Major Crests). And if they weren't 1st-gen, then obviously they don't affect this question.

It is also extremely, extremely unlikely that they received blood from Rhea (since they don't have the Crest of Seiros, and there is no record of them getting a transfusion of blood for any other reason). 

Putting aside questions about Nabatean physiology, humans in the real world replace blood cells after three months. So if humans in Fodlan have anything like our biology, then in order to continue bearing a Crest they'd have to have some way to continue making Nabatean blood, or the vector that actually carries the Crest attributes isn't the blood itself.

Or it might be the case that Nabatean blood is weird and different, and somehow stays in the system permanently, but that raises a whole host of other questions. Does that mean the strength of one's Crest changes depending on how much the bearer bleeds (gameplay suggests not)? How about the case of Edelgard getting a Major Crest, and therefore blood, from (probably) Nemesis - that can't be explained by this system. Point being, things are a little more complex than a first look suggests.

They have minor crests. Not just Aelfric but all the ones in Silver Snow Ch21 Final Battle

https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Aelfric#In-Game

And I never argued four Apostles were first generation, you might confused me with another person. I was the person in another thread questioning if Four Apostles could actually be dragons themselves since the game also called them saints and they somehow has same dresses as the Five Saints. Aubin also seem to implied to live all the way just before the game begins.

 

Seteth made very clear that those humans received blood from Rhea as part of ritual.  Rhea calling Aelfric as one of her "children" also proved this.

Quote

Seteth: White beasts... Are they the ones Rhea shared her blood and stones with?

Seteth: They are after Rhea... Professor, our situation is dire. If we do nothing, Fódlan will be destroyed by a rampaging Immaculate One and these "children" of hers. There is only one way to stop this. We... we must... Damn it! We have no choice but to kill the Immaculate One... to kill Rhea!

Seteth: It is kept secret, but there is a certain rite that all initiates to high office in the church must undergo. In this rite, one pledges to serve the goddess and in return, receives a Crest Stone fragment and blood. The ones who have transformed alongside Rhea just now are the ones who have accepted those gifts. They will shield Rhea--the Immaculate One, I should say--with their very lives. But if we do not strike her down, Fódlan will have no future. To arms!

Quote
  • Rhea: Halt, Aelfric.
  • Aelfric: Rhea! You are the cause of this! It was you who killed her! When she gave birth to a child who made no sound. Tell me what you've done to her! Why does her body remain while her spirit does not?!
  • Rhea: I owe you no words on the matter. But I will tell you this... She made the choice to die, that her offspring might live. I respected her will. Nothing more. Aelfric. Just as I viewed her, so do I view you. You are as my own child. Please, cease this futility.

Besides White Beasts, a few of enemy humans also carried Minor Crest of Seiros in this level.

Edited by Timlugia

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Aelfric wasn't an Apostle, so isn't relevant in this question.

As for the guys in Verdant Wind Ch 22, (this is where Claude's route differs from Silver Snow), you'll note that while Minor Crest bearers are specified as having Minor Crest of X, Major Crest bearers are only specified as having Crest of X. If you look at the labels on that map, all the enemy 10 Elites are listed as having Crests. See the below screenshots for proof.

 

 

IMG_3925.jpg

IMG_3926.jpg

IMG_3927.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

And I never argued four Apostles were first generation, you might confused me with another person. I was the person in another thread questioning if Four Apostles could actually be dragons themselves since the game also called them saints and they somehow has same dresses as the Five Saints. Aubin also seem to implied to live all the way just before the game begins.

If the four apostles aren't first gen, then they also aren't relevant to your original point, which was that first-gen Crest bearers don't necessarily have Major Crests. I mean, they also could be Nabateans, but again if they were then they aren't relevant to this point you were originally making

45 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Seteth made very clear that those humans received blood from Rhea as part of ritual.  Rhea calling Aelfric as one of her "children" also proved this.

You're conflating two very different things. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the White Beasts from SS endgame are at all like the Four Apostles, not least because there is no evidence that the Four Apostles transformed into beasts ever. It also certainly isn't true that the Apostles got their Crests from Rhea, because none of them had the Crest of Seiros. So even if this religious ritual had happened, where Rhea gave them blood and Crest Stone fragments, it would have no bearing on the Apostles' status as Crest-bearers, and so no bearing on the above argument.

As for the White Beasts, I agree that it's strange that they have Minor Crests of Seiros (no other monsters apart from Edelgard have Crests of any kind), but they have also undergone a different process to almost everyone else in the game. They've been given Seiros' blood and a Crest Stone fragment, rather than just one or the other. This combination might be what creates the Minor Crest. It's unclear, for example, that the blood was transfused into them - they could have drank it, and this might change the process. The monster-fication process in tandem with the blood might also be the reason for the Crest change. While I agree this is a wrinkle in the first-gen theory, it doesn't conclusively prove it false.

48 minutes ago, Timlugia said:
  Quote
  • Rhea: I owe you no words on the matter. But I will tell you this... She made the choice to die, that her offspring might live. I respected her will. Nothing more. Aelfric. Just as I viewed her, so do I view you. You are as my own child. Please, cease this futility.

Rhea is attempting to appease an unstable man, hence her appeal to their bond as superior to trusted subordinate (Aelfric was in the monastery for ages, they would have spent time together). Rhea is actually comparing Aelfric to Sitri, who she created from nothing (and is in a more literal sense her child). You've taken this quote out of context, and made it look as if Aelfric also took part in this ritual, but it's a completely different scene and situation to SS endgame. Aelfric just isn't relevant to this discussion I think.

It's far more likely that Aelfric's Crest (and the Crests on other enemies in the CS map) is hereditary - the Crest of Seiros is relatively common in Fodlan. Hell, Aelfric himself was doing shady experiments on Crest blood - he might have given Crests to his men (though it's unclear whether he even could do that). 

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You said "Those who are first-generation recipients of Nabatean flesh or blood also seem to have Major crests"

That's incorrect, since enemy in Silver Snow has minor crests, and Seteth already identified them as people received blood from Rhea.

It's simple fact: there are people getting blood from Rhea with only minor crests, so not every first gen recipient a major crest.

I don't understand why you keep bringing out 10 elites or Apostles for they are irrelevant to this argument, as it doesn't matter if 99 people out of 100 getting major crests, but just one person getting minor crest that still means you could get only minor as first gen.

And how is Aelfric irrelevant? He's a Cardinal, the high ruling member of the church, according to Tomas. And Seteth just said all higher member in the church has to take blood from Rhea. Where do you think he's minor Crest of Seiros came from?

As for your argument of crest fragments making them minor crest, that's at best your own headcanon unless you can find in game source to support it.

 

 

104428407_10157958854783961_5193352323975684620_o.jpg

104444842_10157958854423961_7569963338981819955_o.jpg

104565245_10157958853543961_7754001522426390630_o.jpg

Edited by Timlugia

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50 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

You said "Those who are first-generation recipients of Nabatean flesh or blood also seem to have Major crests"

That's incorrect, since enemy in Silver Snow has minor crests, and Seteth already identified them as people received blood from Rhea.

It's simple fact: there are people getting blood from Rhea with only minor crests, so not every first gen recipient a major crest.

 

The Ten Elites and Jeralt are confirmed cases of transfusion. We don't know what happened with the blood in the religious rite, whether it was transfused or not, which is why I didn't include them as evidence. The first-gen cases we were talking about before this point have all been cases of transfusion, and that's what's been discussed till now.

59 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

As for your argument of crest fragments making them minor crest, that's at best your own headcanon unless you can find in game source to support it

I'm not saying that this is actually true, only that this is possible. The point is that things are more complicated than you portrayed them to be, there are lots of potential explanations, and no one theory proposed so far explains everything.

1 hour ago, Timlugia said:

And how is Aelfric irrelevant? He's a Cardinal, the high ruling member of the church, according to Tomas. And Seteth just said all higher member in the church has to take blood from Rhea. Where do you think he's minor Crest of Seiros came from?

Like I said, his minor crest could just as easily have been inherited (honestly this seems more likely to me). But Aelfric is in any case an exception rather than an example of the rule, because he appears in different circumstances (CS, which occupies a weird place regarding main story) to the White Beast Cardinals. If CS and SS endgame were truly integrated in this respect, then we might expect mention of Aelfric having a Crest Stone fragment in CS, but we don't get that. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

don't understand why you keep bringing out 10 elites or Apostles for they are irrelevant to this argument

When you said the below

6 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not necessary actually, all the cardinals only has minor crests despite

  Hide contents

they received blood directly from Rhea.

I assumed you meant the four apostles, rather than the guys from SS endgame. And when you said

3 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Not just Aelfric but all the ones in Silver Snow Ch21 Final Battle

I thought you were actually trying to reply to my comment about the 10 Elites in the final battle of VW. Basically I misunderstood what point you were originally trying to make, and then thought you were replying to stuff I had said - that's my bad.

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