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Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

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1 hour ago, Hawkwing said:

I agree. Forcing change will be met with opposition, while letting it be gradual means there will be troubles in the meantime. I don't really know a way to comment on combating subconscious thoughts without repeating what you said, so lets just say you took the words out of my mouth.

Having that said, awareness of your internal biases is... what's necessary for us all to move on from systemic issues in general.

You can combat subconscious thoughts by conscious bias training of some sort... the issue is to force it on people in positions of power though, not on regular people. I think ultimately regular people will gradually come around, people in positions of power are where we need to target our efforts.

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The "moderates" need to realize that they are being played by the nutters, basically, and deplatform them utterly. Some folks are quick to realize the folly of their ways, and some take their time. 

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I’ve been following this topic for a bit and have used the arguments to look at how I viewed some of the prevalent issues in the Netherlands concerning the character of Black Pete in the Sinterklaas tradition. So thanks for the insights you provided and allowing me to reflect on some of my own perceptions, as well as gainibg some more understanding of the opposing party’s perspective. 

 

However, as I was reading the topic, one thing that stood out to me was that people mentioned the fact that people that benefit from the status quo do so by actively ignoring the situations at hand. By being/staying uninformed or actively looking the other way and pretendibg to be blind. So as I was reading I was getting increasingly frustrated at the fact that the OP was given insightful information to learn and grow and gain greater understanding. And suddenly she’s nowhere to be found in the topic. Whilst still being active on the forum elsewhere.

Having such a blatant example of actively avoiding the situation proves the points of the people presenting their arguments in the topic.

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On 6/29/2020 at 12:34 PM, Shoblongoo said:

Dirty Little Secret--The whitewashed, dumbed-down history we all learned in grade-school:

i.e. Martin Luther King led the Civil Rights Movement. And then Congress passed the Civil Rights Act. And then there was equality under the law and Black people were treated equally and America became a post-racial society:

...that was a lie...  

From slavery and the 3/5th's Rule to segregation and lynching to red-lining and the creation of the modern american "ghetto" to ongoing predatory practices in policing and criminal justice--its been one, continuous, unbroken line.

Racism never went away.

We're still closer to 1968 then to true equality under the law.
We're still fighting the same culture war against the same entrenched opposition.   

To illustrate these points further, here's a clip from Last Week Tonight.

This should burst the bubble that people believe in about racism simply disappearing, otherwise no amount of convincing would help any of you.

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I cannot think of a better illustration of what white privilege is then what just happened in Kenosha, Wisconsin. 

Kyle Rittenhouse was a 17 year old white male who visibly looked his age , who transported a firearm across state-lines and was openly wielding an assault rifle in a crowd of people in the presence of onlooking police officers. 

...in a a state where the minimum age for open carry is 18...

At no point did police attempt to detain him, question him, arrest him,  or order him to cease and desist. They just watched him, while ignoring that they had probable cause to make an arrest for a firearms related felony + reasonable fear of threat to public safety to use force.  

They let him discharge his weapon + kill two (2) people, before taking him into custody.

And then they arrested and detained him without firing a single shot.
_____

Jacob Blake was a 29 year old black male. Police called to the scene of him reportedly causing a disturbance. 

They perceived no firearm on him, and he posed no discernible immediate threat to public safety. 

They immediately issued directives for him to submit to detention.

They followed him with their guns drawn as he walked to his vehicle.

And then when they thought he MAY have a weapon that they couldn't see inside, they shot him seven (7) times in the back--in front of his three children--and paralyzed him from the waist down.

 No photo description available.



See Again:  "No. Sensitivity over the ((race issue)) hasn't gone too far. Race relations in America + this country's treatment of black people really is just that bad." 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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It's just that bad, and the way how some people are more worried about sports (or in this case, a Disney ride) tells much about what they prioritize. At best, some of these folks are misguided, but at worst, hanging onto these stilted, outmoded notions on race and privilege makes their place in society forfeit.

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There's people framing the situation with the 17 year old as him being a Patriot who stood up against the angry mob when no one else would. Defenders include Tucker Carlson from Fox News who consistently pleases the White Supremacists by making their rhetoric mainstream. The man is paid 10 million a year for effectively being a stochastic terrorist.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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13 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

There's people framing the situation with the 17 year old as him being a Patriot who stood up against the angry mob

Campaign material put out by Trump Supporters the day after he shot the protesters:

Image may contain: 3 people


Just in case it wasn't clear that the strategy is they're trying to incite a Race War, because they think that will help them politically. 

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I haven't posted here in a while, but... While the incident in Wisconsin is fucked up (why shoot anyone that many times, even if firing your weapon was actually warranted? Note, I don't know if it was really necessary or not and I won't say anything on that matter), you want some real hypocrisy?

Rand Paul was "attacked" by protesters, and at least one gave him the middle finger. He had to be escorted to safety by police. This is unacceptable behavior. What did Rand Paul ever do to these people?

Why would anyone support these kinds of people? Why do they think this will get them what they want? I know I don't want to support them if they're just going to keep harrassing, attacking, and rioting. The actual real peaceful protesters I can get behind, but this? It's as messed up as the systemic racism.

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4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Why would anyone support these kinds of people? Why do they think this will get them what they want? I know I don't want to support them if they're just going to keep harrassing, attacking, and rioting. The actual real peaceful protesters I can get behind, but this? It's as messed up as the systemic racism.

Sometimes peace isn’t the right answer. Sometimes you have to get rough and loud to get your message across. Look I don’t like perpetuating the cycle of violence as much as the next guy but you can’t deny that the violence is at least somewhat justified. You can’t just expect everything to be peaceful sunshine and rainbows sometimes violence really is the answer. That’s just the reality we live. True change can only happen when one person is willing to actually fight for what they believe in and sometimes that does mean resorting to less peaceful conventions. It’s just the dualistic nature of how humans operate hypocritical as it may be

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10 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

and at least one gave him the middle finger.

"OK, some guy was shot seven times in the back by the institution that is supposed to protect and serve, which is very bad. But someone was RUDE to a politician! The nerve! The humanity!"

What the actual fuck, Ana.

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Just now, Ottservia said:

Sometimes peace isn’t the right answer. Sometimes you have to get rough and loud to get your message across. Look I don’t like perpetuating the cycle of violence as much as the next guy but you can’t deny that the violence is at least somewhat justified. You can’t just expect everything to be peaceful sunshine and rainbows sometimes violence really is the answer. That’s just the reality we live. True change can only happen when one person is willing to actually fight for what they believe in and sometimes that does mean resorting to less peaceful conventions. It’s just the dualistic nature of how humans operate hypocritical as it may be

While I can see the point you're trying to make, I simply cannot agree with it. I cannot fathom why anyone would be fine with harassing innocent people, literally attacking people such as innocent cops, and destroying businesses. I've seen video of, for instance, a grocery store that was completely a fucking mess. Food and goods all over the floor, shelves broken, and poor families still went in their looking for whatever they could salvage from the destruction.

People are destroying more lives than they'd help with this behavior. I wanted to cry when I saw that video footage. Imagine yourself in such a position! Not able to feed yourself or your kids much because BLM rioters decided to wreck the local grocery store. Or imagine yourself as a business owner and you wake up one day to find your windows bashed in and your shelves and goods on the floor. Imagine how much all that damage costs. You could lose your business and a lot of money and end up in a financial crisis.

I'm all for improving society and life for people. But NOT at the cost of other innocent lives. I just cannot. Yes, technically wars are like this too, but at least during those kinds of conflicts, each side is actively defending and fighting back. A business owner, and these poor families just wanting to support themselves, cannot fight back.

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5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

While I can see the point you're trying to make, I simply cannot agree with it. I cannot fathom why anyone would be fine with harassing innocent people, literally attacking people such as innocent cops, and destroying businesses. I've seen video of, for instance, a grocery store that was completely a fucking mess. Food and goods all over the floor, shelves broken, and poor families still went in their looking for whatever they could salvage from the destruction.

“Innocent cops” the fact you can say that at all after everything that’s happened just speaks volumes as to how naive you are in regards to this whole situation.

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15 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

There's people framing the situation with the 17 year old as him being a Patriot who stood up against the angry mob when no one else would. Defenders include Tucker Carlson from Fox News who consistently pleases the White Supremacists by making their rhetoric mainstream. The man is paid 10 million a year for effectively being a stochastic terrorist.

I must say, Bill O'Reilly was scum, but he was never this bad (or at least he wasn't this open about it).

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Every major historical shift in the history of American law and public policy has been preceded by mass civil unrest.  (See the Organized Labor Movement. See also Women's Suffrage. See also Civil Rights.) 

People who insist that rioting, clashing with law enforcement, and ((harassing)) industry titans + lawmakers has no place in our democratic process are ignoring everything this country is built on. 

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17 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

“Innocent cops” the fact you can say that at all after everything that’s happened just speaks volumes as to how naive you are in regards to this whole situation.

Oh, so no cop is innocent of any of the recent police shootings against black people, not even the ones that were hundreds of miles away when these even occurred. Right.

What about the six cops in Texas that were murdered some years ago after one or two police shootings of some other blacks in entirely other states? They weren't innocent either, I guess.

29 minutes ago, ping said:

"OK, some guy was shot seven times in the back by the institution that is supposed to protect and serve, which is very bad. But someone was RUDE to a politician! The nerve! The humanity!"

What the actual fuck, Ana.

Take one small piece of my whole post and completely twist it around.

What the actual fuck, ping.

15 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

...oh god...

How much time do you have??? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Rand_Paul

Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, firstly. And secondly, oh sure, Rand Paul specifically targeted those people who harassed him with his policies/ideals. Right.

ALL I'M SAYING IS: the police brutality lately has been fucked up. But the way some people are responding is no better, sometimes arguably worse. Neither those actual guilty cops OR these rioting rude protesters are doing themselves any favors.

Edited by Anacybele

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Ehhhhhhhh

If Rand Paul had actually been seriously harmed and the police hadn't protected him (or if the police had been actively working with his harassers), we'd be having a very different conversation right now.

As is, what happened with Rand Paul isn't really a counterpoint to the fact that two separate policing and justice systems seem to exist for Black America and for White America.

...which is what people are pissed about right now... 
 

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3 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Ehhhhhhhh

If Rand Paul had actually been seriously harmed and the police hadn't protected him (or if the police had been actively working with his harassers), we'd be having a very different conversation right now.

As is, what happened with Rand Paul isn't really a counterpoint to the fact that two separate policing and justice systems seem to exist for Black America and for White America.

...which is what people are pissed about right now... 
 

No, by itself it isn't a counterpoint. But group it with the rioting destroying businesses and lives and the people who actually have been injured and killed by protesters, you DO have a counterpoint.

Like I said: the systemic racism is messed up and needs to be eradicated. But the way people are trying to make that happen is no better than the systemic racism. I can't support either side. I have my own stance.

Edited by Anacybele

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18 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Take one small piece of my whole post and completely twist it around.

What the actual fuck, ping.

Frankly, it doesn't make a difference. You're using a completely unrelated incident to downplay an attempted murder, while also ignoring that People of Colour, Protesters, and Rioters are three completely distinct groups of people (if that's even an appropriate term). I stand by my verdict. What the actual fuck.

It's also worth calling out that this is practically the same sentiment as the OP, and I believe you made similar points when Kaep was taking a knee: Sure, protests are alright, as long as they're done where nobody is even slightly inconvinienced or - God forbid! - reminded of whatever is being protested against, lest they might feel bad about it. And in between, you basically ignored 10 pages of arguments why perhaps that's not a good take, and just doubled down on your initial stance. That's incredibly disrespectful to anyone who has posted in this threat and definitely makes you look like you're arguing in bad faith or just want to make a rant and then filter out anyone who disgrees with you.

Edited by ping

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13 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

No, by itself it isn't a counterpoint. But group it with the rioting destroying businesses and lives and the people who actually have been injured and killed by protesters, you DO have a counterpoint.

Like I said: the systemic racism is messed up and needs to be eradicated. But the way people are trying to make that happen is no better than the systemic racism. I can't support either side. I have my own stance.

If thats how you feel, thats how you feel.

My present opinion on the matter is that rioting + destroying businesses is a legitimate and powerful form of protest in a society that values property and property destruction more than it values black lives.

I understand why some including yourself may feel differently, and may believe the goal is correct but the method is wrong.

And to this I say simply:

3 months of getting our asses kicked in the streets has done more to advance the narrative around policing in this country then an entire decade of peaceful protests and taking the knee.  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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6 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

If thats how you feel, thats how you feel.

My present opinion on the matter is that rioting + destroying businesses is a legitimate and powerful form of protest in a society that values property and property destruction more than it values black lives.

I understand why some including yourself may feel differently, and may believe the goal is correct but the method is wrong.

And to this I say simply:

3 months of getting our asses kicked in the streets and making riot police show their true colors has done more to advance the narrative around policing then an entire decade of peaceful protests and taking the knee.  

You don't seem to realize how important these businesses can be to those who run them. They could be their ONLY source of income. The home they're seeing get destroyed may be the only place they could stay (some people live in the same building that their business is in too, btw).

But you'd be okay with these protesters going up to your house and bashing in the windows and costing you a lot of money that you could have spent on real necessities like food and clothing so you can, you know, keep surviving. Okay then, whatever.

Edited by Anacybele

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3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

You don't seem to realize how important these businesses can be to those who run them. They could be their ONLY source of income. The home they're seeing get destroyed may be the only place they could stay (some people live in the same building that their business is in too, btw).

But you'd be okay with these protesters going up to your house and bashing in the windows and costing you a lot of money that you could have spent on real necessities like food and clothing so you can, you know, keep surviving. Okay then, whatever.

 

Houses and homes can be rebuilt lives cannot as the old saying goes. Fact is this is all happening after years of constant abuse and oppression at the hands of our bullshit justice system. This shit just doesn’t happen overnight. This is essentially what happens when the straw breaks the camel’s back

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