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Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

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1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

Houses and homes can be rebuilt lives cannot as the old saying goes. Fact is this is all happening after years of constant abuse and oppression at the hands of our bullshit justice system. This shit just doesn’t happen overnight. This is essentially what happens when the straw breaks the camel’s back

You can't rebuild your house or business if you can't afford it. And especially not overnight. So the business owners' lives can be ruined and not rebuilt either. Do you think people are made of money and resources?

Edited by Anacybele

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5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But you'd be okay with these protesters going up to your house and bashing in the windows and costing you a lot of money that you could have spent on real necessities like food and clothing so you can, you know, keep surviving. Okay then, whatever.

...if the police in my town did what the police in Kenosha or Louisville did...

And none of the officers involved were arrested.

The only reason I wouldn't be out in the streets bashing windows with the protesters is that I'm a professional man with a wife and kids that depend on me staying out of trouble + keeping my job. 

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1 minute ago, Shoblongoo said:

...if the police in my town did what the police in Kenosha or Louisville did...

And none of the officers involved were arrested.

The only reason I wouldn't be out in the streets bashing windows with the protesters is that I'm a professional man with a wife and kids that depend on me staying out of trouble + keeping my job. 

And those business owners could've had spouses and kids that depended on them and their business too!

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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

I haven't posted here in a while, but... While the incident in Wisconsin is fucked up (why shoot anyone that many times, even if firing your weapon was actually warranted? Note, I don't know if it was really necessary or not and I won't say anything on that matter), you want some real hypocrisy?

Rand Paul was "attacked" by protesters, and at least one gave him the middle finger. He had to be escorted to safety by police. This is unacceptable behavior. What did Rand Paul ever do to these people?

While I do agree that we shouldn't resort to violence and we don't know if Jacob Blake has a history of violent crime/use of firearms, but there is a big difference between

"Some people were harassing a politician! The police had to make sure he wasn't hurt."

and "Two policemen shot a guy seven times in front of his three children without knowing if he had a weapon!"

Verbal assault is not a worse crime than permanently crippling a human in front of his children. The severity levels are massively different.

50 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Imagine yourself in such a position! Not able to feed yourself or your kids much because BLM rioters decided to wreck the local grocery store. Or imagine yourself as a business owner and you wake up one day to find your windows bashed in and your shelves and goods on the floor. Imagine how much all that damage costs.

Imagine being told that your husband/father was paralyzed from the waist down and was shot seven times without a good reason.

50 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

People are destroying more lives than they'd help with this behavior.

That is almost certainly false- According to this website, 13.4 % of america's population is Black/African American.

The fact that there are riots and places are being trashed and destroyed is terrible, I agree. But the fact that 13.4% of the population is discriminated against and are feared is worse. Plus, a very small proportion of people actually are actually rioting- I don't have numbers, but I don't think it'd be unfair to say that 95% time, when a BLM movement speaks out, it's peaceful. Surely less than 1% of the population have had their properties by the "BLM movement." (I put in quotation marks because the rioters most certainly are there to throw bricks, not protest.)

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

It's as messed up as the systemic racism.

...

One politician getting yelled at is worse than a whole racial minority being stepped on constantly?

30 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Take one small piece of my whole post and completely twist it around.

What the actual fuck, ping.

But that's in essence exactly what you said-

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

While the incident in Wisconsin is fucked up (why shoot anyone that many times, even if firing your weapon was actually warranted? Note, I don't know if it was really necessary or not and I won't say anything on that matter), you want some real hypocrisy?

Rand Paul was "attacked" by protesters, and at least one gave him the middle finger. He had to be escorted to safety by police. This is unacceptable behavior.

Although it may have been a problem with wording rather than intent.

22 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Like I said: the systemic racism is messed up and needs to be eradicated. But the way people are trying to make that happen is no better than the systemic racism.

But almost every protest has been peaceful! The professional sports teams striking to bring attention to the cause-That's peaceful and makes us pay attention to the cause. Waving around BLM flags and holding parading through the streets in protest-That's peaceful and brings attention to the cause. I'm not usually a pragmatist, but the lives damaged by BLM do not in any way equal the amount of lives that will be helped. Things do need to change, and the fact that kneeling doesn't do anything does prove that more drastic action is needed, even if it's something I personally disagree with.

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I never said Rand Paul being harassed was worse than the Jacob Blake shooting. Again twisting my words. I said OTHER incidents have been just as bad, if not worse. Murdering six cops was definitely worse. Destroying businesses is pretty much just as bad, maybe worse depending.

Rand Paul's situation is just a more recent example of the hypocrisy. It's not as bad as those other incidents or as bad as Jacob Blake being paralyzed for no reason.

It's okay to shoot six cops in cold blood, but not okay to shoot a black man. That a better way to put it?

I do apologize though, if I didn't use the right wording. I admit I sometimes have trouble wording things properly.

Edited by Anacybele

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On 6/29/2020 at 11:51 AM, Anacybele said:

Seattle's been partially taken over, some people are actually calling for defunding the police of all things (seriously, these people need to read Lord of the Flies. A country with no one to enforce the law is just dangerous and nothing more than chaos),

That's not what people calling for "defunding the police" are calling for; they're calling for a large chunk of police budget (which is actually extremely large in a lot of cities and a not insignificant amount of it is spent on military-grade equipment that the police doesn't need) and reallocating those funds towards other public services that could use the money, such as mental health services. The idea would be that, since a lot of calls the police get in the US don't actually have to do with crime or the need for law enforcement but instead have to do with matters such as mental health, the other public services would be equipped to handle those calls and the police wouldn't be overburdened. 

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13 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Again twisting my words.

Eh, I'd say it's more the wording making it read more like Ping's interpretation than what you're trying to say. I do understand now, though.

14 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Destroying businesses is pretty much just as bad, maybe worse depending.

Eh, insurance exists, which businesses should probably have- I don't know how insurance works in America, though. Maybe it's different?

15 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

It's okay to shoot six cops in cold blood, but not okay to shoot a black man. That a better way to put it?

The difference here that the person who killed the six cops was most likely persecuted and imprisoned for life or something equivocal to that-Black people have been getting killed and the killers remain unpersecuted often-That's the main reason things such as Jacob Blake's shooting have caused such problems-That, and the fact that these deaths were because of systemic bias against people of color. Obviously, both are horrible crimes, though.

24 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I admit I sometimes have trouble wording things properly.

Who doesn't, honestly? All good.

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14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That's not what people calling for "defunding the police" are calling for; they're calling for a large chunk of police budget (which is actually extremely large in a lot of cities and a not insignificant amount of it is spent on military-grade equipment that the police doesn't need) and reallocating those funds towards other public services that could use the money, such as mental health services. The idea would be that, since a lot of calls the police get in the US don't actually have to do with crime or the need for law enforcement but instead have to do with matters such as mental health, the other public services would be equipped to handle those calls and the police wouldn't be overburdened. 

Well yeah, on paper that all sounds plausible. But just because that's the case doesn't mean it would actually work. Now, I kinda agree that the police shouldn't be militarized, except in perhaps extreme cases (like maybe multiple people going into a place with guns and firing at anyone and everyone. Just an example). But you still gotta consider all the possible outcomes of what this could do.

Some police departments could be unwittingly left undermanned and understaffed and I don't think any of us wants that. I guess the real question is how much of the budget could the country realistically afford to cut? I'm not sure it's much.

6 minutes ago, Benice said:

Eh, insurance exists, which businesses should probably have- I don't know how insurance works in America, though. Maybe it's different?

Yeah, but insurance only does so much. It may not cover everything either. Insurance companies really suck here sometimes. For example, a house my parents own in Fayetteville, NC was partially flooded by a hurricane. Insurance would not cover that because it wasn't in a flood zone and thus insurance for flooding is not possible to get for it. 😕

6 minutes ago, Benice said:

The difference here that the person who killed the six cops was most likely persecuted and imprisoned for life or something equivocal to that-Black people have been getting killed and the killers remain unpersecuted often-That's the main reason things such as Jacob Blake's shooting have caused such problems-That, and the fact that these deaths were because of systemic bias against people of color. Obviously, both are horrible crimes, though.

Fair enough, but the thing is, the murder of those cops was clearly done in retaliation to police brutality committed by other cops hundreds of miles away and that's the problem I have with such an act.

Edited by Anacybele

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9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, but insurance only does so much. It may not cover everything either. Insurance companies really suck here sometimes. For example, a house my parents own in Fayetteville, NC was partially flooded by a hurricane. Insurance would not cover that because it wasn't in a flood zone and thus insurance for flooding is not possible to get for it. 😕

Oof. That really sucks...

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Fair enough, but the thing is, the murder of those cops was clearly done in retaliation to police brutality committed by other cops hundreds of miles away and that's the problem I have with such an act.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that murder's okay. I agree though, the senseless deaths are really sad.

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1 minute ago, Benice said:

Oof. That really sucks...

Yeah. The way insurance is handled and the way some of those companies operate is another thing that really should change in this country. I obviously can't say if they're ALL bad, of course, but some insurance companies and their rules are stupid.

Along with that, the education system needs to be improved, and better ways to afford healthcare should be found too.

3 minutes ago, Benice said:

I don't think anyone is going to argue that murder's okay. I agree though, the senseless deaths are really sad.

Exactly. At the end of the day, I just want it all to stop. All the senseless killing and violence going on. Whether it's from police brutality or horrible rioters or something unrelated to either.

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Calling for peaceful protests when cops can act with utter impunity because it is, in most cases, not just encouraged, but expected? That is rich. 

No social contract exists when one of the parties concerned has been acting in bad faith all this time, have been systemically fucking the other party over in every way imaginable, and making the other's existence in society a living hell. Be glad that the aggrieved side is demanding fair treatment through protests, and are not literally out for blood.

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35 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Exactly. At the end of the day, I just want it all to stop. All the senseless killing and violence going on. Whether it's from police brutality or horrible rioters or something unrelated to either.

Agreed.

And with that being said:  the radicalization of peaceful protesters into 'horrible rioters' is a response to how poorly the country continues to treat their people + how little has changed after years of peaceful protest.

So if you wanna tackle the problem at its roots: you gotta go after the underlying grievances of injustice under the law.

Everything else is a weed that just keeps growing back if you don't do anything about the roots. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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30 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Agreed.

And with that being said:  the radicalization of peaceful protesters into 'horrible rioters' is a response to how poorly the country continues to treat their people + how little has changed after years of peaceful protest.

So if you wanna tackle the problem at its roots: you gotta go after the underlying grievances of injustice under the law.

Everything else is a weed that just keeps growing back if you don't do anything about the roots. 

Well yeah, I wouldn't call the peaceful protesters horrible rioters. I'd call the ones bashing in windows and stuff the horrible rioters. But that being said, you're still right in the rest of this post.

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4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well yeah, I wouldn't call the peaceful protesters horrible rioters. I'd call the ones bashing in windows and stuff the horrible rioters. But that being said, you're still right in the rest of this post.

I mean the people who 5 years ago would have been peaceful protesters. But today are instead deciding to bash windows and burn cop cars. 

They've become more radical in their alignment and they're making those decisions because its been 6 years since Ferguson, and basically nothing has changed.  

Hence the need to go back to square-1 and address the root of the problem. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I mean the people who 5 years ago would have been peaceful protesters. But today are instead deciding to bash windows and burn cop cars. 

They've become more radical in their alignment and they're making those decisions because its been 6 years since Ferguson, and basically nothing has changed.  

Hence the need to go back to square-1 and address the root of the problem. 

Yeah, and if it's taking violence and rioting to get things to change, I'd think there are some other problems too, actually. It's too sad that it's taking this much. Another reason it should never have had to happen.

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1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Well yeah, on paper that all sounds plausible. But just because that's the case doesn't mean it would actually work. Now, I kinda agree that the police shouldn't be militarized, except in perhaps extreme cases (like maybe multiple people going into a place with guns and firing at anyone and everyone. Just an example). But you still gotta consider all the possible outcomes of what this could do.

Some police departments could be unwittingly left undermanned and understaffed and I don't think any of us wants that. I guess the real question is how much of the budget could the country realistically afford to cut? I'm not sure it's much.

 

I'm poor at explaining this stuff, so here's a video that explains a lot of this argument that I'm trying to explain:

Quote

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

I mean the people who 5 years ago would have been peaceful protesters. But today are instead deciding to bash windows and burn cop cars. 

They've become more radical in their alignment and they're making those decisions because its been 6 years since Ferguson, and basically nothing has changed.  

Hence the need to go back to square-1 and address the root of the problem. 

The very fact that they've become more radical in their alignment bares the consequences of inaction. These consequences are detrimental to society, to be sure, but what can be said about the matter other than "they had it coming since no significant change in relations happened?"

Real resolution starts when the roots are addressed. And a huge part of that root is the deliberate programming of law enforcement to carry out acts of violence without compunction.

Edited by Karimlan

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34 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I'm poor at explaining this stuff, so here's a video that explains a lot of this argument that I'm trying to explain:

Okay. This guy does make some good points. I did, in fact, believe that people were calling for firing some police and leaving them unable to handle some of the tasks that they currently do. And I'm still not sure that's what wouldn't happen anyway because I don't trust many politicians and all. But if what this guy in this video is saying does happen, I'd be all for it then.

That said, however, I do have to criticize a couple things here. First, that graph showing how many people of each race the police have killed. You also have to know just how many of those were actually bad shoots, you know? For all we know, a vast majority of them were actually good, necessary shoots and the numbers of the ones that were bad aren't so uneven.

Second, the idea about not giving police guns for non-violent situations. In theory, this sounds good, but then you have to remember that not all non-violent situations actually end that way. What are they to do when someone ends up grabbing a gun or knife and the situation escalates? They can't defend themselves from such a nutcase without weapons of their own.

Edited by Anacybele

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20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

the idea about not giving police guns for non-violent situations. In theory, this sounds good, but then you have to remember that not all non-violent situations actually end that way. What are they to do when someone ends up grabbing a gun or knife and the situation escalates? They can't defend themselves from such a nutcase without weapons of their own.

With the fat budgets most police have, I'm very willing to wager that they'd have some form of hand-to-hand combat or defense training that covers disarming techniques (e.g, Kali/Escrima/Silat/Krav Maga).

Edited by Karimlan

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"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." JFK

Understand these words cause they are true and it can be seen throughout history not just in America but throughout the globe.  How long has BLM been going on?  What has changed?  What about the white supremacist in the White house who called people who kneel during the national anthem sons of bitches (this was in reference to athletes mostly black kneeling in support of BLM and calling for justice).  How about what he says today mocking peaceful protesters...instead saying they are anarchists?  BLM kept wanting to have a conversation but the president and right wing media was like Shut the fuck up, respect the flag, BLM is a hate word, ALL LIVES MATTER, WHITE LIVES MATTER, BLUE LIVES MATTER, honor our military and a bunch of other BS.  Essentially completely refusing to take BLM seriously as even something worth a discussion.  Even know when the majority support it and it isn't just mostly black people it is people of all races and genders, our garbage President mocks the movement, and bashes it repeatedly.  He bashes the NBA for postponing games to honor Blake.  He's fanning the flames of lawlessness and disorder with his actions and words.  

Why was Rand Paul harrassed?  Where was he coming from?  Oh yeah the Trump worshipping Republican Convention.  The reason should be obvious.  

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On 8/28/2020 at 4:01 PM, Anacybele said:

Okay. This guy does make some good points. I did, in fact, believe that people were calling for firing some police and leaving them unable to handle some of the tasks that they currently do. And I'm still not sure that's what wouldn't happen anyway because I don't trust many politicians and all. But if what this guy in this video is saying does happen, I'd be all for it then.

He makes a lot of really good videos that I would recommend. They're funny and he makes some really good points. 

 

On 8/28/2020 at 4:01 PM, Anacybele said:

That said, however, I do have to criticize a couple things here. First, that graph showing how many people of each race the police have killed. You also have to know just how many of those were actually bad shoots, you know? For all we know, a vast majority of them were actually good, necessary shoots and the numbers of the ones that were bad aren't so uneven.

That doesn't really change how disproportionate the numbers are.

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4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

He makes a lot of really good videos that I would recommend. They're funny and he makes some really good points. 

I actually did look at another, the one about how bad American news is. Since I do think the news IS bad in some ways.

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That doesn't really change how disproportionate the numbers are.

No, but it can tell you that they may not be as bad as they look. Take the number of COVID deaths for instance. Some would argue that they're kind of inflated because some of those deaths may actually be more from other medical issues than COVID itself. They just list COVID as the cause because the patient happened to die after contracting it. I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes sense to me if it is and it would make the real COVID deaths actually smaller than what we're being told.

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On 8/28/2020 at 4:20 PM, Karimlan said:

With the fat budgets most police have, I'm very willing to wager that they'd have some form of hand-to-hand combat or defense training that covers disarming techniques (e.g, Kali/Escrima/Silat/Krav Maga).

Do you have any idea how dangerous it is to try and disarm someone with a knife when you are barehanded? The common wisdom is that you don't get away from a knife fight uncut. That doesn't mean you'll lose, but that is incredibly dangerous and should only be attempted as a last resort. A better argument is that cops normally out number the perp and I am assuming the disarming crowd is ok with Tasers and such so numbers plus ranged electrical based weaponry would make such a situation far less dangerous. Even non-ranged electrical based weaponry could put the situation in favor of the cops if it were a long cattleprod type weapon that could outreach the knife. Firearms aren't strictly necessary against a knife when you have numbers on your side. But dealing with a knife is still dangerous so you need something to out range it or someone is getting cut. Seriously. Knifes. Are. Really. Fucking. Dangerous. Reach keeps them in check and there are other tools/weapons that can help, but going against one unarmed is bad news man. There are plenty of stories of Military Veterans dying to knifes when they try to help out someone being attacked/etc. Seriously. Knifes. Are. Really. Fucking. Dangerous.

So are guns. And the cops have shown that a large number of them go for the gun WAY too early or in situations where it isn't called for. If you can't use a tool properly and safely, don't be surprised when the tool gets taken away. So I am not disagreeing with the 'get guns out of cops hands' thing(though I would probably argue for a nuanced approach), but hand to hand combat vs knife isn't a good solution. There are plenty of other tools you can give to cops that can make that matchup less dangerous.

 

35 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

No, but it can tell you that they may not be as bad as they look. Take the number of COVID deaths for instance. Some would argue that they're kind of inflated because some of those deaths may actually be more from other medical issues than COVID itself. They just list COVID as the cause because the patient happened to die after contracting it. I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes sense to me if it is and it would make the real COVID deaths actually smaller than what we're being told.

The COVID situation is interesting. There are almost certianly 'extra' deaths being recorded, however, there are also almost certainly deaths being missed. In the middle of a pandemic this is not an exact science. We don't know which way the inaccuracies actually lean. We can just do the best with what data we do have. However, a bigger impact on death rates is likely to be the asymptomatic. Our total number of cases could easily be twice as high as what is reported. There are some reports/speculation that as many as 80 percent could could show little or no symptoms. This is big issue. IF that many are asymptomatic that makes the mask issue and testing extremely important, but it also means that the disease isn't nearly as lethal as initially feared. Since the vast majority of folks wouldn't even know they have it.

That said we are still in the middle of the issue. It'll likely be quite some time before all the data is collected/sorted and we have an 'accurate' view of the disease. All we can really do now is try to keep the spread low in an attempt to flatten the curve and keep it from hitting those most vulnerable to it until we can get effective means to fight it(i.e. a vaccine/etc)

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3 hours ago, Anacybele said:

No, but it can tell you that they may not be as bad as they look.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but proportionately speaking and all other things being equal among races, you should see a distribution of police shootings based on the racial distribution of the country. By this i mean that if a country has a population composed of 20% people of colour and 80% white people, shootings would also fall in a roughly 20/80 split. Regardless of whether its an unjustified shooting or not. The fact that people of colour are getting shot more than white people, in a country where white people are still the majority is a sign of inequalities present in both society and the justice system.

White people aren't less likely to crimes. So even if there are justified shootings in the graphs, those must also be present in the white people numbers. This still means the graph fulfills its purpose in showing black people are disproportionately targeted by police.

Edited by Zanarkin

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On 8/28/2020 at 12:53 PM, Anacybele said:

You can't rebuild your house or business if you can't afford it. And especially not overnight. So the business owners' lives can be ruined and not rebuilt either. Do you think people are made of money and resources?

You know, if our president (and all those other billionaires) actually decided to provide money to the poor instead of wasting over $100 million on golf outings and other selfish antics (or for that matter, our cities actually put more money towards its citizens than the outrages proportions it's giving towards its corrupt police forces which I keep reading about them instigating conflicts with tear gas and blanks as well as counter-protestors they're buddying with, so don't give me that "bUt ThE rIoTs" crap), maybe these people would be better off. Believe it or not, all these billionaires like the infamous Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk could end some big issues going on with the world and still be billionaires. But they choose not to because they love their money over people. They could pay for the damages including our president. But they won't. And they haven't been for a good while for various disasters over the years. That's why people are looting from these big companies in the first place, too.

If you really give a damn about the poor and the needy, you'd actually listen to the people screaming on Twitter for help getting funds (even if you can't donate, they have their stories), especially those who have gotten hurt by the cops shooting blanks or tear gas or white supremacists pretending to be protestors as they cause damage BLM is disapproving of (yes, they ARE doing that, and trying to make BLM look bad in the process as the cops let them go, and you can get a clue of that if you notice they're white folks doing this stuff) and listen to their accounts on what happened and not the biased cis white people on TV channels like FOX News cherrypicking their news to spin lies as they crack sadistic jokes. You shouldn't be giving a damn about some stupid Disney ride or Rand Paul getting his feelings hurt because protestors yelled at him (by the way, he's demanding the FBI arrest said protestors despite them not doing anything worthy of it so meh, and saying "real hypocrisy" IS trying to imply Paul's incident is more pity-worthy than cops shooting a black man again, so no one's really twisting your words as much as you are downplaying it to justify bringing up Paul as a point against BLM) over black people like George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Jacob Blake among MANY OTHERS over the years getting shot and/or killed by cops for being black, and that's their only reason, no matter what they scramble to say after the fact. And I probably mentioned it before, but Floyd's killer? He only got jailed for murder AFTER people were vocally angry he wasn't being held accountable, and even then he got bailed out. Cops are not being held accountable, and they almost never have been by our screwed-up system in our screwed-up country.

They protested. The world didn't listen. They protested again with acceptable force. The world either tried to demonize them or feed them symbolic changes (including stuff they never asked for, like VA cast changes in TV shows) and acknowledged them, but didn't help stop the cops.

751 people died to the cops in 2020, and black people are 28% of those killed despite only being 13% of the population, having been targeted more than white people for their skin. Their anger is justified, and that's why many big names and a majority of the minorities who have hated cops before the Floyd incident are standing with BLM against these killers and their scum president continuously defending them. And I'm gonna keep supporting their fight.

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