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Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

You missed my post edit then, I guess. I choose not to finish watching it.

What was your post? What am I missing here? And why are you even posting if you're not going to engage with the materials we're presenting to you?

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1 minute ago, Johann said:

What was your post? What am I missing here? And why are you even posting if you're not going to engage with the materials we're presenting to you?

Quote

EDIT: I stopped watching that video as soon as I saw "will be donated to the Critical Resistance, a prison and police abolition group." As shown to me earlier, defunding is one thing, but we cannot completely abolish the police and jails.

This.

And I'm not ignoring EVERYTHING. I did watch a video posted earlier and listened to Specta.

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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

This.

And I'm not ignoring EVERYTHING. I did watch a video posted earlier and listened to Specta.

Man, you ignored something because of one small thing that you disagree with.

Abolish the police has a point too, and we as a society clearly aren't ready for it mentally. But it has a place in the discussion, and if you're ignoring a whole thing that talks about racial injustice and protests because of one small thing you disagree with...  you're frankly a snowflake and you shouldn't have come to discuss in SD in the first place.

SD isn't even anything close to intellectually rigorous, but you refuse to even do the bare minimum to engage.

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13 minutes ago, Johann said:

There is a limit to peaceful protesting when it's directly against a violent faction where there is no appealing to their morality. Even MLK and Ghandi said as much.

When you have people who argue that "looters are as bad as the cops who killed George Floyd," people like LAPD Chief Michael Moore, you know you're dealing with rhetoric that is so fucked up, I don't even know where to start.

The Zoom conversation referenced in the article I linked shows a bunch of stooges, the day after Moore came up with his brilliant deduction, taking all the verbal abuse from a populace that is so fed up with being gaslighted/gaslit to no fucking end. Moore looks like a turd and rightfully deserved all the remarks, and more, because he is exemplifying what has been said about a bloated police force, so corpulent and corrupt beyond compare: they're a hammer, and they've become the only tool most states/cities have. So everything is a nail to these folks.

Edited by Karimlan

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1 hour ago, Burklight said:

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, if I were to, hypothetically of course, suggesting that looting and vandalism and beating people to death in the streets is unacceptable, then I'm responsible for derailing a productive discussion about how to address racism, and the people doing all the things I think are unacceptable are somehow not responsible for derailing otherwise peaceful protests? I feel pretty confident that isn't what you're implying, so please correct me.

Ah, no, not at all but I can really see how you read it that way so that was my bad for phrasing. Thank you for allowing me to clarify. 

We can and should criticize looters, vandalism, assaults and murders that have taken place, but my intention is to say there's an issue if we use this as evidence to ignore the reason the protests are happening and not have the discussion about racial violence because things like looting have taken place. Does that make more sense?

edit: I want to add a tiny bit that in my head feels important. Ignoring the issue is not always an intentional choice that stems from this - if you find yourself talking more about the looters in a protest and whether that is appropriate behavior than about the systemic racial violence that sparked the protest, that likely is missing the main issue

Edited by Specta

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43 minutes ago, Burklight said:

 Is there anything in the code of conduct that says anything about making calls to violence? Might want to add that if it was overlooked somehow.

i'll take this as the policymaker - there isn't an explicit rule against this because it's really fucking obvious that fire emblem fan forum serenesforest dot net isn't the place for that, and the code of conduct isn't meant to be granular and all-encompassing

 

we still cheerily throw out suspensions for doing it, even against our own various political views

 

EDIT: except for nazis. fuck nazis.

Edited by Integrity

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38 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

This.

And I'm not ignoring EVERYTHING. I did watch a video posted earlier and listened to Specta.

The video directly addresses your argument about peaceful protesting. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by not watching it, and also stifling the discussion we're trying to have with you.

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@Anacybele Please watch the video @Johann posted. It's only seven minutes, and it addresses in a very easy-to-understand way what is currently happening and why it's happening.

Yes, I know you already said why you're not watching it, but that's a small price to pay when discussing issues like this, specially as the thread's OP. Blatantly ignoring other people's arguments only makes you look like you didn't make this thread to debate in good faith.

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honestly this whole situation is one giant mess. I feel like everyone is looking at this situation far too simplistically. Personally, I'm of the belief that violence in this situation should be avoided. Hate and violence only breeds more hate and violence if there's anything I've learned from how this world operates. Thing is though sometimes violence is necessary to get your point across. Honestly civil rights issues are just incredibly stupid to me because they shouldn't be issues in the first place. People are just so damn petty. Why is it so hard to treat another human being with a little respect?! like it's not that hard to not be a dick to another person based in innocuous details they can't control yet people are for whatever the fuck reason. Ugh it's just tiring. as for the whole defunding the police topic, I'll just say this. You know there's a problem with this country when we're concerned with giving more money to the faction of our country whose primary function is to kill people rather than giving that money to factions that instead help foster the next generation.

Edited by Ottservia

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Yikes this got very heated. I'll just say this and then leave:

I don't think defunding police is the right choice, I think better training for police under-stress situations (I know George Floyd didn't die because of such a situation, but many times a cop fires unjustly because of it, it's proven that it happens) with the same funding they already have would work. Because let's be honest, a lot of those funds are probably being allocated to corrupt higher-ups, so the funding wouldn't need to be higher for that.

In fact, it could even be lowered but that's me being positive.

That's just my opinion and I'm not the smartest person ever so I probably missed something.

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14 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Yikes this got very heated. I'll just say this and then leave:

I don't think defunding police is the right choice, I think better training for police under-stress situations (I know George Floyd didn't die because of such a situation, but many times a cop fires unjustly because of it, it's proven that it happens) with the same funding they already have would work. Because let's be honest, a lot of those funds are probably being allocated to corrupt higher-ups, so the funding wouldn't need to be higher for that.

In fact, it could even be lowered but that's me being positive.

That's just my opinion and I'm not the smartest person ever so I probably missed something.

Yeah, I can see this point of view. Fewer personnel, but better trained personnel.

Although, some of the thought behind "defund the police" is that, for instance, black communities are overpoliced and that's where a lot of the funds go. There's cases where the police in New York make like 6 digits, and in some cases 200k/year due to overtime pay. The police department gets 6 billion dollars to do a job that seems like it's paid too much...  especially since you don't really need a degree or screening to be part of the NYPD.

And then there's the study where the police didn't actively police but they only responded to calls. Police essentially went on strike and basically only responded to 911 calls. Crime rate went down significantly in that time. Part of the conversation is that we need to rethink how policing works or the necessary extent of policing, and if we should take police & prison funding and put it into social workers for rehabilitation, rather than just saying "we need a better police force." Because really, police are oppressive and the recidivism rate in this country is horrific.

Defund is simply trimming the fat from overfunded police departments, in some respects. In other respects, if there are so few police in an area not responding to much more than traffic violations, how necessary are full departments?

 

Mix that with oversight and an executive branch willing to act (which I can tell you, this executive branch is the worst in our nation's history) and we can avoid this whole mess and make society better. And ultimately, the protesters are doing this for every American because millennials and Gen X are going to be left the worst state of the world ever.

Edited by Lord Raven

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Better mental health care for officers is one of the main issues. Everyone loves to act like cops never do their jobs, but we also dont want to talk about the shit the cops who are doing their job have to deal with on a daily basis.

Someone gets their head blown off with a shotgun? They have to investigate that crime scene. Someone murdered their infant child? They have to investigate that scene. Horrific crash scene where a family of 4 died? They have to check the scene.

Child porn, Murder, Rape, Suicide. They have to see this shit on a daily basis. Things that scar you for life, things that we are all lucky to not have to see ever in our life, and these people are the ones seeing it on a daily basis.

This isnt including the fact that there is a very real possibility that the guy you were talking to in the office that morning could be dead that afternoon. You can find several cases where a cop was just hired, first day on the job. And killed in a shootout, Mothers returning from maternity leave that are shot and killed.

And what do we have to care for the mental health of these people?

Nothing.
 

They have to see the worse things humanity has to offer, the absolute worse possible things people could do to each other. They have to look at it all to find the sick fuck who did it. And we offer them nothing to actually help work through the things they are experiencing. The anger, the shock, the grief.

And then one of these cops snap.

Now dont make a mistake in what Im saying here, Im not trying to defend the cops in what they do. Im not even saying its justified.

But these people need better mental health care, because they dont get any. And on top of it, they cant afford it. Because most cops arent exactly rich, thats for sure.

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33 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Yeah, I can see this point of view. Fewer personnel, but better trained personnel.

Although, some of the thought behind "defund the police" is that, for instance, black communities are overpoliced and that's where a lot of the funds go.

This is a fair assesment, it's kind of what I meant to by how the allocation of current funds is not in the best places so more likely than not, we don't even need to increase funds for better trained personnel.



@Tolvir An excellent point too, if I do say so myself.

Edited by This boi uses Nino

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@Anacybele I know I'm a little late to the discussion here, but I just wanted to mention many of your thoughts are actually quite similar to my own. What happened to George Floyd is absolutely terrible, but these riots are going way to far especially the madness happening in Seattle. However, I wanted to quickly touch on the Disney situation since I don't see many people talking about it. Obviously the riots are the more important topic of discussion, but I've been keeping a close eye on the entertainment industry's agenda for years now so I definitely know a thing or two about it by now.

Dinsey's reaction over this public out cry doesn't surprise me one bit, they've been pandering to the political correctness crowd for a long time. Over around the past 5 years or so there's been a big push for female and minority leading roles in their movies which isn't a bad thing by itself, but they only do it because they think it will boost profits by drawing in those politically correct crowds, not an earnest desire to write good stories about minorities. For example, the Star Wars sequels prominently advertised the character Finn played by John Boyega which makes sense for one of the stories central characters, but when advertising the film in China, Finn's role was downplayed because of pressure from the Chinese government who didn't want a black character featured so prominently on the posters. Situations like this reveal exactly what Disney's goal is with this pandering, to turn out profits, but as soon as it might effect ticket sales they'll double it back just as quickly. So the re-branding of splash mountain is just another empty gesture aimed at bringing in more money, they announced at a time where political discourse over race is at an all time high and garner loads of positive public attention which they hope will create an increased interest in visiting their theme parks.

Also here's a quick side by side comparison of an American poster and Chinese poster for Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Notice how Finn(John Boyega, British-Nigerian) is made smaller in the Chinese poster as well as the removal of Poe Dameron(played by Oscar Isaac, Guatemalan-American) and Maz Kanata(played by Lupita Nyong'o, Kenyan-Mexican). Heck, I guess the Chinese government is racist against Wookiees now for some reason because Chewbacca was removed as well.

Spoiler

Star Wars: The Force Awakens' China poster 'racist' - CNN

 

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2 minutes ago, TheGoodHoms said:

@Anacybele I know I'm a little late to the discussion here, but I just wanted to mention many of your thoughts are actually quite similar to my own. What happened to George Floyd is absolutely terrible, but these riots are going way to far especially the madness happening in Seattle. However, I wanted to quickly touch on the Disney situation since I don't see many people talking about it. Obviously the riots are the more important topic of discussion, but I've been keeping a close eye on the entertainment industry's agenda for years now so I definitely know a thing or two about it by now.

Dinsey's reaction over this public out cry doesn't surprise me one bit, they've been pandering to the political correctness crowd for a long time. Over around the past 5 years or so there's been a big push for female and minority leading roles in their movies which isn't a bad thing by itself, but they only do it because they think it will boost profits by drawing in those politically correct crowds, not an earnest desire to write good stories about minorities. For example, the Star Wars sequels prominently advertised the character Finn played by John Boyega which makes sense for one of the stories central characters, but when advertising the film in China, Finn's role was downplayed because of pressure from the Chinese government who didn't want a black character featured so prominently on the posters. Situations like this reveal exactly what Disney's goal is with this pandering, to turn out profits, but as soon as it might effect ticket sales they'll double it back just as quickly. So the re-branding of splash mountain is just another empty gesture aimed at bringing in more money, they announced at a time where political discourse over race is at an all time high and garner loads of positive public attention which they hope will create an increased interest in visiting their theme parks.

Also here's a quick side by side comparison of an American poster and Chinese poster for Star Wars: The Force Awakens. Notice how Finn(John Boyega, British-Nigerian) is made smaller in the Chinese poster as well as the removal of Poe Dameron(played by Oscar Isaac, Guatemalan-American) and Maz Kanata(played by Lupita Nyong'o, Kenyan-Mexican). Heck, I guess the Chinese government is racist against Wookiees now for some reason because Chewbacca was removed as well.

  Reveal hidden contents

Star Wars: The Force Awakens' China poster 'racist' - CNN

 

Huh, I see. Well, at the very least, I can understand wanting to make money. And wow, now it sounds like China is more racist than this country is.

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Did you really talk about pandering to political correctness

 

And did you really ignore the vast majority of the protests being peaceful 

 

You're doing literally what everyone was describing was wrong... Bad faith talking about looting like it's the majority (when it's orthogonal to the protests)

 

@Tolvir do you have articles to back up if that's the majority of what police officers do? Because violent crime has gone down since the 90s... by a good amount... And not everyone who is policing attacks against a minority because they do too much as is...

George Floyd's murder was solely callousnous, but there were way more murders that get swept under.

Edited by Lord Raven

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4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Did you really talk about pandering to political correctness

 

And did you really ignore the vast majority of the protests being peaceful 

 

You're doing literally what everyone was describing was wrong... Bad faith talking about looting like it's the majority (when it's orthogonal to the protests)

Just out of curiosity. If rioters showed up where you live and tried to burn it down, would you be cool with it? By your logic, complaining about violence might distract from the cause that the rioters so clearly dont' give a shit about. Again, I'm for making changes to the system, but why stick up for people who clearly care less about equality than you do?

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9 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Did you really talk about pandering to political correctness

 

And did you really ignore the vast majority of the protests being peaceful 

 

You're doing literally what everyone was describing was wrong... Bad faith talking about looting like it's the majority (when it's orthogonal to the protests)

I didn't say the riots were the majority of the protests. I am perfectly fine with peaceful protests. I am not in any way trying to say I am against wanting justice for what happened to George Floyd. The political correctness pandering was relevant for discussing Disney's response to the situation because it's clearly just a money making tactic for them.

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5 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Just out of curiosity. If rioters showed up where you live and tried to burn it down, would you be cool with it? By your logic, complaining about violence might distract from the cause that the rioters so clearly dont' give a shit about. Again, I'm for making changes to the system, but why stick up for people who clearly care less about equality than you do?

I'm not sticking up for rioters. I'd be pissed about rioters.

But I wouldn't blame it on the protesters, lol, I'd blame it on the police for attacking the protesters instead of the looters, because it's clear that they don't really work for anyone but middle class or upper class whites.

It also wouldn't happen in my current neighborhood because.. we're actually more integrated than the rest of the country. But that's an aside.

Quote

I didn't say the riots were the majority of the protests. I am perfectly fine with peaceful protests. I am not in any way trying to say I am against wanting justice for what happened to George Floyd. The political correctness pandering was relevant for discussing Disney's response to the situation because it's clearly just a money making tactic for them.

I mean, ultimately I'm not sure why anyone cares or how it's political correctness. Political correctness is a buzzword these days used to delegitimize civil rights in other circles... Keep that in mind 

Edited by Lord Raven

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i'll put it right out there, aggressively

 

the instant you say 'pandering to the political correctness crowd' you're leaking alt-right rhetoric whether you want to or not. i'm sorry. the term is long-gone as anything anyone arguing in good faith says anymore.

 

EDIT: that isn't to say that this is the singular thing that's troubling me about recent posts, and i want to remind everyone that the hawkish eyes of the administration are here, it's just the most pointedly bullshit argument present. ta

Edited by Integrity

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1 minute ago, Integrity said:

i'll put it right out there, aggressively

 

the instant you say 'pandering to the political correctness crowd' you're leaking alt-right rhetoric whether you want to or not. i'm sorry. the term is long-gone as anything anyone arguing in good faith says anymore.

To be brutally honest the proper term for the "political correctness crowd" I was referring to is probably better known these days as the Social Justice Warriors, but I know that the term SJW also lights a fire under a lot of people out there so I was trying to use something I though might be less flame inducing, clearly I must have chosen poorly. Though I was never intending to promote one side of the political spectrum or the other with my comments about Disney. I just wanted to point out that Disney's marketing is clearly pandering to a particular political demographic, but will just as easily do the exact opposite if it makes them more money.

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it isn't better known as Social Justice Warriors; sjws are a boogeyman spawned by white gamers frightened of overreactionary tumblrinas and, in its prime form, represents about fifty-five people. the term has been co-opted by a lot of folk, such as myself, to mean someone who gives a shit about not killing black and gay people. i have yet to meet a person who unironically used the term SJW in its original sense to refer to someone who didn't have some deep simmering hatreds about some group.

 

EDIT: besides nazis. fuck nazis.

 

whether you do or not, perhaps consider the company that implies.

Edited by Integrity

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26 minutes ago, Integrity said:

it isn't better known as Social Justice Warriors; sjws are a boogeyman spawned by white gamers frightened of overreactionary tumblrinas and, in its prime form, represents about fifty-five people. the term has been co-opted by a lot of folk, such as myself, to mean someone who gives a shit about not killing black and gay people. i have yet to meet a person who unironically used the term SJW in its original sense to refer to someone who didn't have some deep simmering hatreds about some group.

If you're trying to say I'm a bigot, just stop yourself right there dude. I do not identify as alt-right at all, I consider myself politically neutral. I admit I had chosen my words poorly, but otherwise I was trying to give a neutral perspective when I was making my Disney comments. I based my comments on observations I had made about the company's marketing, not on any personal opinions.

Edited by TheGoodHoms

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sure, which is why i dropped a line that you didn't quote giving you the benefit of the doubt. these words you're using are, in my experience, charged terms, and i have explained how they are charged. it would, in my opinion, behoove your cause to not use them.

Edited by Integrity

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To be fair, his posts weren't accusing you of being a bigot, but serving as a cautionary comment that that kind of language is associated with people you likely don't want to be associated with in your arguments

edit: oops i was redundant sorry

Edited by Specta

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