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Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

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3 minutes ago, TheGoodHoms said:

If you're trying to say I'm a bigot, just stop yourself right there dude. I do not identify as alt-right at all, I consider myself politically neutral. I admit I had chosen my words poorly, but otherwise I was trying to give a neutral perspective when I was making my Disney comments. I based my comments on observations I had made about the company's marketing, not on any personal opinions.

There is no such thing as politically neutral. At best, that means you're politically ignorant or politically selfish-- you either don't understand the discussion, or you don't really care. Or both.

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Alright guys, I won't use those terms anymore. Just don't tell your friends I'm some crazy racist or anything like that. I just wanted to point out an interesting trend in advertisements for the products of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

9 minutes ago, Johann said:

There is no such thing as politically neutral. At best, that means you're politically ignorant or politically selfish-- you either don't understand the discussion, or you don't really care. Or both.

I just don't perfectly fall on either side on the political spectrum is all I was trying to say. I probably lean a little more towards the left on most political issues, but there are some issues I'll lean towards the right.

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Being “nuetral” in a battle between the status quo and reform by default means you’re on the side of the status quo.

Because when neuteral sentiment prevails, maintaining the status quo is the default outcome.

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1 minute ago, TheGoodHoms said:

Alright guys, I won't use those terms anymore. Just don't tell your friends I'm some crazy racist or anything like that. I just wanted to point out an interesting trend in advertisements for the products of a multi-billion dollar corporation.

Too late, I already called Tommy, he's all "fuck that internet guy"

 

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6 minutes ago, TheGoodHoms said:

Alright guys, I won't use those terms anymore.

as long as it was a teachable moment, i've got no beef with you dog

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Just to note, assuming the rioters are all protesters is wrong.  Don't believe the fat orange man.  Some of it is alt right groups who are anti police or who want to discredit the protests.  Some are opportunistic criminals.  So this notion why are protesters going over the line and looting?  Well indeed with such large groups of people some may have crossed the line, but most defend the stores and many have defended and kicked out violent protesters.

Also Defund the police, don't believe Joe Rogan or Fox.  It isn't abolish the police, like there is no police.  It is reallocating some of their budget to invest into more resources in the worst neighborhoods.  Perhaps drug rehab clinics, into schools, etc.  Then it is also that police don't have to be called in for everything under the sun.  A person having a mental breakdown, child tantrum, stuff like that can be handled by social workers.  Traffic violations can be handled by camera or other workers who simply record the license number and mail a ticket. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Johann said:

Too late, I already called Tommy, he's all "fuck that internet guy"

 

Aww man! I though Tommy was my friend! XD

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1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

Just to note, assuming the rioters are all protesters is wrong. 

just wanna dial it back to point out that this was specta's entire point from the last page - bringing up the rioters whenever the protests are brought up is equating the two, no ands ifs or buts about it. that was her whole point about the flawed premise of this thread - it brings up the protests for a 'sincere' conversation by framing it in the context of the rioters. it equates the protests with the riots. it seeks a centrist position and only finds the position where the protests brought about the riots, and thus both must be bad, because i the poster am very enlightened.

 

i'm sure some fact-checker will respond to this with a well, actually, but we've had a largely loot-free southwest ohio that's been full of protests and those protests have been more oppressed by the police than they have gone to bad shit like rioting.

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There has been a lot of talk here of supposed riots, but surprisingly little about violence used against protestors, so I figured I would point out some tactics used by police so aggressive that protestors had to ask a judge to issue an injunction against the Denver Police to stop them.

This came about due to police using pepper spray directly aimed directly into the eyes and face of non-violent protestors; intentionally firing rubber projectiles at the face and genitalia resulting in multiple instances of permanent loss of vision, fractured facial bones requiring surgery, and ruptured testicles; firing rubber projectiles at members of the media trying to document the incident, and medical personnel trying to aid the seriously injured; and finally firing teargas and pepper balls into peaceful crowds, and at time then blocking their only means of escaping the gas while doing so. The evidence of violent misconduct by police was sufficient to get the temporary restraining order partially granted...

 

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Disney has always seemed to be embarrassed about Song of the South, considering it never got a VHS or DVD release in North America, and they won't put it on Disney +. I won't lie that I do wonder why they still haven't available when a "This movie is a product of its time. It contains outdated depictions of race that were wrong then and are wrong now. We won't censor anything, because that would be pretending that these prejudices didn't exist." disclaimer would go a long way (Disney + already has a small one, though Warner Bros has them beat there. Seriously, looks theirs up, it is extremely well done), though I still respect Disney's decision. Sometimes it is best to leave sleeping dogs lie.

I don't take issue with changing the ride itself, as rollercoaster remodeling is nothing new. I will, however, critise the timing. This comes off less as an announcement that they have plans to give one of their classic rides a new coat of paint, and more like they're trying to appease certain crowds. I wouldn't put it past them, considering their clumsy attempts at implementing and promoting LGBT content (though to be fair, they aren't the only company that struggles with this. Nor is this a new situation; consider how varied the handling of things such as race, gender, nationality, and so on has been across a mediums history. An interesting topic of discussion, but that's not what this current thread is about).

 

As for the current topic, I have long since been disillusioned with the news. It's an establishment that has existed for centuries, and they know every trick in the book to rile people up, promote agendas, carefully provide the truth, and tell people what they want to hear. Unfortunately, I don't see this situation as any different.

Different sources focus on different aspects of this situation, whether it's the actions of the police, the protesters, the politicians, the victims of rioting, or any other group they can think of. And each one paints each group in the light they want people to see them in. Heck, within this very topic, both the actions of the police and the protestors have been emphasized or downplayed. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, but good luck finding the big picture without listening to the yelling on all sides and trudging through the anger and fear that seems to fuel most of these groups.

The end result seems to be that you either have to pick a side or denounce them all as handling the situation without the care it deserves. Or just wait until history repeats and the conflict dies down for some time, before something stirs it up again later. Cynical note to end on, but while the specifics are different, this situation is nothing new.

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2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

There has been a lot of talk here of supposed riots, but surprisingly little about violence used against protestors, so I figured I would point out some tactics used by police so aggressive that protestors had to ask a judge to issue an injunction against the Denver Police to stop them.

This came about due to police using pepper spray directly aimed directly into the eyes and face of non-violent protestors; intentionally firing rubber projectiles at the face and genitalia resulting in multiple instances of permanent loss of vision, fractured facial bones requiring surgery, and ruptured testicles; firing rubber projectiles at members of the media trying to document the incident, and medical personnel trying to aid the seriously injured; and finally firing teargas and pepper balls into peaceful crowds, and at time then blocking their only means of escaping the gas while doing so. The evidence of violent misconduct by police was sufficient to get the temporary restraining order partially granted...

 

What about that time when the Wisconsin (or was it Minnesota?) state police arrested that newscaster and cameraman for covering the protesting?

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No, I do not think the race issue has gone too far. I might not agree with some of the methods and actions some companies have taken to address the issue, but those actions align with a good cause. I will just use Dungeons and Dragons for example, since I am a little more familiar with the medium.

Wizards of the Coast recently announced that they are planning do some minor overhaul in how they word their stories, more specifically, in how they describe different races. This primarily affects orcs, drow (dark elves), and a few other "evil" races. For example, orcs are described as dumb brute savages who breed prolifically. Unless a person is completely dense, this combination of descriptions can be extremely off-putting and uncomfortable for some people as many racists and some Republicans have used similar words to describe black people.

I personally do not agree that they need to recast orcs in a different light, but I also realized that I am also not the one being hurt by those words. While I do not fully support Wizard's actions, I do not oppose it either. I cannot think of a better solution, so I might as well go along with it, especially if it can help reduce the pain of others. I can still have evil orcs in my campaign for my party to fight, but I have good orcs in my campaign too, and what Wizards wants to do is already in line with what most Dungeon Masters have already done in practice anyways, so it really does not affect me if at all.

In D&D's case, the issue that Wizards is trying to address is not that players are conflating orcs with black people (I do not think most players even make that association), the issue is systemic racism in itself and the pain that it can cause to others. Blindly labelling an entire race of sentient beings in a monolithic negative way is habit that Wizards is trying to cut out, especially when those beings are playable races that a real life person can be in control of. Imagine a racist manager at work disregarding your opinions and calling you a dumb brute due to the color of your skin, and when you want to go home and play D&D, the game also calls orcs dumb savages (if you want to play as an orc, officially right now, there is literally a penalty to your Intelligence stat) and shoe horns them into melee combat classes.

I am not too familiar with Disney's case, but I assume it is something similar. Whatever Disney is trying to change or remove is an attempt to avoid reminding people of an emotionally painful past.

And as others have said, I do not think it is right to conflate protestors and rioters. It is okay to highlight the plight of businesses and people who have been affected by rioters, but I think it is disrespectful to equate rioters with protestors, as they are two very distinct groups of people.

4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

And wow, now it sounds like China is more racist than this country is.

In some ways, yes, China is a ton more judgemental and prejudiced, but it is a bit different. Compared to white supremacy here in America, racism in China generally is not very interested in racial purity, but they do look down on other cultures, and want to force their customs and traditions onto others. Not sure if racism is the right term to describe China's case, I think cultural imperialism and extreme cultural narcissism is probably more accurate, but it is on a level that is as toxic as racism and white supremacy here in the United States.

The primary exception to racial purity is against dark skinned people, although generally for different reason than here in the US, and it has more to do with pigmentation than actual race. There is a negative bias against dark skin in general, particularly for females (it is okay for males to have darker skin, but there is still a limit). While Chinese racism generally does not equate dark skin with crime and such (although they are starting to pick up that habit more recently with more exposure to US media and people moving back and forth between here and there), they do equate dark skin with ugliness and repulsiveness. For example, if you are Indian and you are lighter skinned, Chinese racism will affect you much less negatively than if you are an Indian with dark skin. Similarly, if you are black but your have lighter skin, then you will probably not face as much racism compared to if you have darker skin. In this case, John Boyega's skin tone is too dark for many of their tastes; if he had Obama's or preferably Kaepernick's skin tone, he probably would not have been reduced in size.

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2 hours ago, Armchair General said:

What about that time when the Wisconsin (or was it Minnesota?) state police arrested that newscaster and cameraman for covering the protesting?

Minneapolis.  They arrested a CNN reporter.  In other places (don't remember where), reporters have been chased out/fired upon.

---

With THAT out of the way, I'm popping back in here because what the fuck.  RL is giving me hell, thankyouverymuch.

The only people that I saw who cheered on the rioters/looters were the scum in my local newspaper comments section.  For the vast majority of those with a shred of sense and empathy, rioters/looters are not welcome.  HOWEVER, protesters are NOT rioters/looters.  Hawaii had thousands show up for a BLM, and the only disruption they caused was to traffic.  Peaceful protesting is an American right.  I happen to think that this is a cause that needs attention.  I'll support the right for some. . .other local protestors to do their thing, even if what they're protesting is dumb (bet I could get people to go back on the right to protest if I said what these guys were protesting).

As for Disney, I refuse to ride Splash Mountain because I'm not a fan of roller coasters.  Unless the Song of the South in Splash Mountain is a proper museum exhibit, I'm all for getting rid of it.  History is important, but it MUST be done with proper context.

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3 hours ago, XRay said:

In some ways, yes, China is a ton more judgemental and prejudiced, but it is a bit different. Compared to white supremacy here in America, racism in China generally is not very interested in racial purity, but they do look down on other cultures, and want to force their customs and traditions onto others. Not sure if racism is the right term to describe China's case, I think cultural imperialism and extreme cultural narcissism is probably more accurate, but it is on a level that is as toxic as racism and white supremacy here in the United States.

The primary exception to racial purity is against dark skinned people, although generally for different reason than here in the US, and it has more to do with pigmentation than actual race. There is a negative bias against dark skin in general, particularly for females (it is okay for males to have darker skin, but there is still a limit). While Chinese racism generally does not equate dark skin with crime and such (although they are starting to pick up that habit more recently with more exposure to US media and people moving back and forth between here and there), they do equate dark skin with ugliness and repulsiveness. For example, if you are Indian and you are lighter skinned, Chinese racism will affect you much less negatively than if you are an Indian with dark skin. Similarly, if you are black but your have lighter skin, then you will probably not face as much racism compared to if you have darker skin. In this case, John Boyega's skin tone is too dark for many of their tastes; if he had Obama's or preferably Kaepernick's skin tone, he probably would not have been reduced in size.

Oh. Huh. That's odd. And something I could never understand or relate to, personally, because I think my pale skin is uglier than tan or darker skin. I'm not sure if I'd like being REAL black, but tan or kinda black? Heck yeah.

Edited by Anacybele

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7 hours ago, XRay said:

In some ways, yes, China is a ton more judgemental and prejudiced, but it is a bit different. Compared to white supremacy here in America, racism in China generally is not very interested in racial purity, but they do look down on other cultures, and want to force their customs and traditions onto others. Not sure if racism is the right term to describe China's case, I think cultural imperialism and extreme cultural narcissism is probably more accurate, but it is on a level that is as toxic as racism and white supremacy here in the United States.

You aren't wrong about their imperialism of other cultures, but they're absolutely raciest in the worst possible way. They currently have internment camps for Uyghurs for example, who are rounded up. There's all sorts of reports about forced sterilization for anyone ethnically pure enough as well. What China is doing is far closer to what Hitler did than anything the white nationalist idiots over here do.

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China is just really fuckin weird and I say that as someone who is half Chinese myself

Edited by Ottservia

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4 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Oh. Huh. That's odd. And something I could never understand or relate to, personally, because I think my pale skin is uglier than tan or darker skin. I'm not sure if I'd like being REAL black, but tan or kinda black? Heck yeah.

I don't think you quite understand the weight that comes with that, nor do you seem to understand the kind of shit "REAL black" gets.

I'm Pakistani and I'm light skinned and that gets much less of a visceral reaction within my own culture than the darker skinned people. South India is darker skinned and not represented in Bollywood, which is the Hollywood of South Asia.

Balochistan in Pakistan is a similar issue, with many african-heritage Pakistan is who are treated like shit and systemically discriminated against because of their skin and heritage.

And I know dudes who are dark as fuck who get comments on their skin constantly. They hate it; they love their skin but the amount of people that say "I wish I weren't as dark as you" makes them feel like shit and objectified. It's actually fucking dehumanizing to say "I wish my skin were dark but not THAT dark."

Whether or not your skin makes you feel uglier is irrelevant to the fact that society as a collective values lighter skin, and it's even a problem within some black communities! But it's a massive problem with the people of this country.

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I'm half-filipino but I'm tan enough that random people think I'm hispanic. However, I can confirm that in South Asian cultures, lighter skin is considered a sign of beauty and that's why skin whitening creams and treatments exist there.

Additionally, yes Asian Cultures are kinda more judgmental but that's a nuanced topic and I only really have in-depth knowledge of the Filipino culture. The gist of it in the Philippines is more to do with the country being a really mixed shebang of cultures from all over the world blended together. However, the class stratification in said country revolves around people with very strong caucasian or mainland chinese(or japanese) blood where their skin is lighter and facial features less Australasian iirc. But yeah, being lighter skinned is also kind of a weird status-symbol on some level there. 

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If I was a Republican senator, I'd be hopping on the "defund the police" train faster than anyone else. Why Republicans allow a state-run, heavily unionised organisation to run wild will always be baffling to me.

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22 hours ago, MacLovin said:

I'm half-filipino but I'm tan enough that random people think I'm hispanic. However, I can confirm that in South Asian cultures, lighter skin is considered a sign of beauty and that's why skin whitening creams and treatments exist there.

Additionally, yes Asian Cultures are kinda more judgmental but that's a nuanced topic and I only really have in-depth knowledge of the Filipino culture. The gist of it in the Philippines is more to do with the country being a really mixed shebang of cultures from all over the world blended together. However, the class stratification in said country revolves around people with very strong caucasian or mainland chinese(or japanese) blood where their skin is lighter and facial features less Australasian iirc. But yeah, being lighter skinned is also kind of a weird status-symbol on some level there. 

From what my wife has told me, racism in East Asian countries is something akin to common attitudes in the Unite States towards Mexico and Latin America.

i.e. There's a segment of wealthy and privileged people in the lighter-skinned, more economically developed region to the North that is Japan, South Korea, Mainland China and Taiwan.

Those people look at the poorer, darker-skinned, less educated populations in the region to the South that is the Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam. 

And they basically just treat them as an exploitable source of menial labor (i.e. housekeepers and maids for rich businessmen, gardeners and landscapers, janitors and trash collectors, etc.) 

While viewing their culture with distrust and not wanting too many of them in their countries, because they see them as sources of drugs and violent crime. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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18 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

If I was a Republican senator, I'd be hopping on the "defund the police" train faster than anyone else. Why Republicans allow a state-run, heavily unionised organisation to run wild will always be baffling to me.

Republicans only care about having control over others. Their typical anti-union, anti-regulation thinking is based on how it limits their ability to dominate industries, and thus people. They like the police because they have the ability to subjugate people in a way that is generally accepted, or at least until recently. It's also why when they talk about handling crime, it's all about punishment and not about rehabilitation. Many cops share that thinking and vote Republican knowing they'll be given more power, whether through legal protections or through funding/equipment.

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4 hours ago, Johann said:

Republicans only care about having control over others. Their typical anti-union, anti-regulation thinking is based on how it limits their ability to dominate industries, and thus people. They like the police because they have the ability to subjugate people in a way that is generally accepted, or at least until recently. It's also why when they talk about handling crime, it's all about punishment and not about rehabilitation. Many cops share that thinking and vote Republican knowing they'll be given more power, whether through legal protections or through funding/equipment.

This is a really cool point, but it's in the wrong thread.

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