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Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

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On 6/30/2020 at 4:28 PM, UNLEASH IT said:

If I was a Republican senator, I'd be hopping on the "defund the police" train faster than anyone else. Why Republicans allow a state-run, heavily unionised organisation to run wild will always be baffling to me.

It's because Republican voters tend to have more affinity for Authoritarianism than they would like to admit. "Small central government" goes out the window when there's attempts at banning abortion for example.

On 6/29/2020 at 11:21 AM, Anacybele said:

Huh? What do you mean politics? This isn't about the government or Trump or anything. But otherwise, yeah, I agree.

In the US, Racism discussion will always contain politics. You should read the stuff below to get a little understanding of why that is.

On 6/29/2020 at 6:00 PM, Ottservia said:

honestly this whole situation is one giant mess. I feel like everyone is looking at this situation far too simplistically. Personally, I'm of the belief that violence in this situation should be avoided. Hate and violence only breeds more hate and violence if there's anything I've learned from how this world operates. Thing is though sometimes violence is necessary to get your point across. Honestly civil rights issues are just incredibly stupid to me because they shouldn't be issues in the first place. People are just so damn petty. Why is it so hard to treat another human being with a little respect?! like it's not that hard to not be a dick to another person based in innocuous details they can't control yet people are for whatever the fuck reason. Ugh it's just tiring. as for the whole defunding the police topic, I'll just say this. You know there's a problem with this country when we're concerned with giving more money to the faction of our country whose primary function is to kill people rather than giving that money to factions that instead help foster the next generation.

There are many many factors that come into play for why Racism is such a prominent thing in the US and why our politics suck so much when it comes to just implementing changes that give certain folks the rights "normal" people already have. It basically boils down to the right-wing overlapping with white supremacist ideology but to provide some factors, here's 3 things 

 

1. The modern Republican Party is literally the product of pandering to racists. It was already linked earlier but folks should really research the matter of the Southern Strategy and hear Lee Atwater's words on it. The reason why that strategy targeted white voters in the South specifically is because the South sees the history of things like the Civil War, Slavery and Who should be allowed to govern quite differently from folks in the north and so they were basically easy pickings. As a result, the party entrenched itself with racism back when it was more popular but now that they see that they're losing white voters that aren't racists and that they can't really hope to get the support of non-whites, they're hoping to look like they're trying to get rid of the stink to little success because just like Andrew Gillum told Ron DeSantis, "the racists think you're racist" and that is the case as some such groups see the party as their vessel of opportunity to gain power and there was even an actual Nazi, Arthur Jones, winning a recent primary because the party couldn't find someone to oppose him. Even though the Republican party wants to try and get rid of the white supremacist stink, they still need support from such people in conjunction with their cheating in election to maintain the party as they know they're losing.

The Republican LORD AND SAVIOR, Ronald Reagan, himself was actually racist but anytime you say that in conversation with a conservative they would deny it or bring up the fact that he signed some particular bill (I forget what it was specifically) while omitting the fact that said bill couldn't be vetoed rendering that defense moot as well as ignoring the fact that when he was governor of California, he took GUN CONTROL action in response to Black Panthers patrolling the streets armed to deal with Police abusing their power... you know, that argument gun nuts make about protection against tyrannical government. Nowadays you have this audio clip and an op-ed from his daughter apologizing and you can still find Republican voters and politicians defending him on this. The Republican party in particular has just had racist leaders and the voters just keep putting in people that doesn't help them drive that stink away. There was a dude literally running for congress vowing to deport Obama to Kenya, he was still in Congress earlier this year and is now Trump's chief of staff.

Nowadays the Republican party basically does nothing besides look to pass tax cuts for the rich (because the reality is that yes, our politicians are owned by them), deregulate everything and stoke fear about the "VIOLENT LEFT" to their old voters thanks to the help of...

2. Right-wing media, most prominently Fox News creating an alternate reality and the "liberal" media being soft on Republicans. If you ever wondered how it is possible that Trump was not impeached AND removed when Nixon was, here you go.

For Racism specifically, just google "Advertisers flee Tucker Carlson" and you'll find results from different time periods, this usually happens when the dude runs a segment that's far beyond his usual BS. The most recent news about him is that he's the most watched cable news show. If you wonder why, it's because of his populism approach as well as being straight up white supremacist porn because he's a better voice for them than they have been. Then there's other shit like PragerU's videos trying to portray the current Democratic party as racist, their new video calling the BLM movement marxist, comparing BLM to terrorist groups, etc. They do this kind of shit all the time and it's just never gonna end until the audience wakes the fuck up and ditches them completely because when Fox News faced a lawsuit because of their lying about COVID-19, their defense was that the 1st amendment protects their lying and in another lawsuit for libel by Tucker Carlson, literally admit the guy lies to his audience. All of this ends up culminating from misinformation and mental gymnastics done strictly to protect the Republican party and it ends up making it difficult to create unity between the people's understanding of actual cases of racism occurring in the country and dumb instances of fools too recklessly calling others racist (which can often be ignored and isn't resulting in cases where the police is called on them).

Then there's the "liberal" mainstream media which is often terrible at covering politics and has a habit prioritizing ratings by being soft on Republicans because the Republican voters in their audience would get mad whenever their politicians were singled out. A good example of this is when Obama spoke out about the BS shutdown in 2013 that was caused by Republicans. Obama spoke the truth here (they demanded ransom for just doing their jobs) but the mainstream media just played their "both sides" card to look neutral as always. Their constant attempts at being neutral and failure to call out Republicans being obstructionists plays to the advantage the worst politicians we have in congress such as...

3. Mitch McConnell. This man is the real winner of the 2016 election and he's capitalized on it.

This is a man who loves the Citizens United outcome and believes there should be MORE money in politics even though voters on both sides hate money in politics.

This is a man who continues to block vote on any legislation that does not involve benefiting the rich and takes pride in it by calling himself the Grim Reaper

This is a man up for reelection this year and has predictably won with ease in his primary and is expected to win reelection.

This is a man who said that Obama being president was payment for Slavery.

I could go on and you may be wondering what the fuck does he have to do with racism, civil rights issues and the current BLM protests? Well everything currently, he's basically put himself in the middle of every single problem in the country due to his habit of blocking just about anything that reaches the Senate.

If police reform, investigations or a bill containing efforts to deal with the issue we're seeing of police constantly killing black folks who have no business dying the way they did and no justice being delivered (as well as cops having free reign to attack non-violent protesters), the man will block it because it would most likely come from the Democrats.

If a bill is made to make voting easier or improve the money in politics issue and it passes, the man has already blocked it and called it a "power grab" because the party itself currently believes that if it were easier to vote (anything besides going to a polling place for a long time during a work day), they're done.

It may seem like I'm just demonizing him and technically I pretty much am, but the point is, it doesn't matter if there's any good solution passed by the House of Representatives if he's still in power and we saw from the 2 years the Republicans had total control of the government under Trump that their priorities are strictly passing tax cuts, deregulation and destroying social programs that benefit regular folks. Even if this election cycle gets rid of Trump, if this guy maintains the Senate under his control like it currently is, the current unrest and protest won't really amount to more than what has already happened and it'll all just be a cycle where at a random time you may see protests start up again and companies taking the opportunities to just cash in by pandering and little things like renaming bases/removing statues but nothing really substantial. The man CAN be persuaded but it's incredibly difficult and a point of reference to that difficulty is the situation about the benefits for the 9/11 first responders where Jon Stewart had to come into a congressional hearing to shit on congress and publicly pressure McConnell to fucking do something.

McConnell is also a factor to consider for folks that don't want to look into politics and want to check out from it (I certainly want to) or put simply, those who see themselves as "apolitical" or "politically neutral". As things are currently, the choice is basically made for you when it comes to any lawmaking that improves things for regular folks/marginalized folks  or tries to address things that aren't giving more money to the rich or deregulation, and that choice is "No" so long as the man maintains Senate Majority. I understand the desire to be "politically neutral" but the unfortunate reality voter apathy helps incumbents like him.

TL;DR, if you want any change to come in regards to racism or simply for common sense civil rights progress to be made, the Republican party needs to be punished for its use of the Southern Strategy and continued obstruction and money in politics. The issue of race in particular, should be this simple.

And for those who have read this far and just think this is me being partisan: I'm a Hispanic male with light skin that's often not thought of as Hispanic by other people (including fellow Hispanics) due to my speech and when it comes to the issues most things have no bearing on me and I would personally benefit more from Republican rule due to their penchant for Tax cuts and yet I consider myself an Independent voter. I have 2 cousins in a similar boat (but it's much much easier to tell that they're Hispanic thanks to their speech) and they both support Trump and will vote for him again. The difference between me and them is simply research of both sides vs Fox News. 

2 hours ago, Locke And Stock said:

Quick thing, this is a "motte and bailey" fallacy. There are many people calling for full on abolition of the police ranging from general socialist activists up to politicians such as Lisa Bender in Minneapolis. To claim that the argument is really about defunding the police rather than abolition is akin to retreating into the motte.

https://www.leftvoice.org/the-fight-to-abolish-the-police-is-the-fight-to-abolish-capitalism
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

Sorry, you can keep going.

There's both, people who literally mean to ABOLISH and people who stop at defunding. I don't agree with the former and them being grouped with the crowd that actually means the latter are setting up the whole situation to either blow up and accomplish nothing or far less than it really should.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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If you are not white, male, upper middle class or above income wise, and christian voting Republican is voting against yourself.  

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6 hours ago, eclipse said:

This is a really cool point, but it's in the wrong thread.

Haha no, it belongs here. If you want to ask questions and discuss it further, by all means, be my guest.

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if any of you see the last quote in sirius' post a few up that's a God-given banned user coming back just to start a thing

 

bye bye again, banned man

 

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15 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

From what my wife has told me, racism in East Asian countries is something akin to common attitudes in the Unite States towards Mexico and Latin America.

i.e. There's a segment of wealthy and privileged people in the lighter-skinned, more economically developed region to the North that is Japan, South Korea, Mainland China and Taiwan.

Those people look at the poorer, darker-skinned, less educated populations in the region to the South that is the Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam. 

And they basically just treat them as an exploitable source of menial labor (i.e. housekeepers and maids for rich businessmen, gardeners and landscapers, janitors and trash collectors, etc.) 

While viewing their culture with distrust and not wanting too many of them in their countries, because they see them as sources of drugs and violent crime. 

If we're going to continue the parallel you brought up in the first line, it kinda goes through a looooot of smaller similar parallels that I'm not sure I'd be able to give appropriate wording to given that it's squicky material and it's almost 3 in the morning.

 

But the Philippines is the one weird place where the rest of the region isn't sure whether or not to treat solely like menial labor since everyone there learns english as a second language due to the schools. (Country has a major brain drain issue. But that's another discussion.) But additionally, said countries in first-world asia tend to send their kids to the Philippines to grow up in the english speaking private schools. There's a substantial number of south korean, mainland china, taiwanese, and japanese children being put through the private schools in the country. (There's like a dozen in each major city or thereabouts.)

Sensitive Content. 

Spoiler

Anyways, race issues in Asia are odd. They kinda fetishize white people but get incredibly wary of black people. I've heard things through anecdotes and whatnot about why and it's kind of a perpetuation of a stereotype of "black people are extremely sexually active" to the extreme. (I"m putting it in the most civil terms possible.) These anecdotes come from the standard "someone who knows someone who knows someone who . . .etc." stuff and I'm not sure which part of the filipino culture started perpetuating this crap. 

Again, this is ***all*** anecdotal in this spoiler. 

 

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16 minutes ago, MacLovin said:

Anyways, race issues in Asia are odd. They kinda fetishize white people but get incredibly wary of black people. I've heard things through anecdotes and whatnot about why and it's kind of a perpetuation of a stereotype of "black people are extremely sexually active" to the extreme. (I"m putting it in the most civil terms possible.) These anecdotes come from the standard "someone who knows someone who knows someone who . . .etc." stuff and I'm not sure which part of the filipino culture started perpetuating this crap. 

I would say that a lot of asian communities (south and east) are antipathic towards black people for whatever reason. I can't even figure out why, aside from basic community propaganda / trusting the US news a little too much.

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My two cents on this whole thing:

- why'd they have to protest and gather in huge numbers in the middle of a pandemic, couldn't it wait? 

- don't people understand the basic concept that demonizing and shamelessly hating people tends to drive them away from your cause? 

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3 hours ago, FrostyFireMage said:

why'd they have to protest and gather in huge numbers in the middle of a pandemic, couldn't it wait? 

Protesting tends to be a "strike while the iron is hot" kind of situation. Waiting for some nebulous point in the future would cause many people to have forgotten about Floyd by now, so we wouldn't see the amazing turnouts and the chances of any of the demands of the protesters being met would be drastically lower.

Besides, it's not like non-protesters are exactly doing any better in staying home right now.

3 hours ago, FrostyFireMage said:

don't people understand the basic concept that demonizing and shamelessly hating people tends to drive them away from your cause? 

If we're talking about "demonizing" the cops here, the fact of the matter is that the institution absolutely deserves every bit of scorn it's getting right now, and the likelyhood of a meaningful number of cops supporting the protests under any  circumstances is extremely small. The government needs to see just how angry people are about these issues in order for anything to get done: even "peaceful" protests need to be disruptive and assertive to accomplish anything.

Honestly, I think a lot of folks don't fully grasp just how dire the circumstances are in our country (and even outside of it): this isn't just protesting the one murder, this is protesting a consistent pattern of violence and abuse by the police towards the populace, and especially towards poor black communities. Others have already said what I'm saying better than I ever could, but this is an existential crisis for a lot of people, and the anger all stems from a deserved and genuine place of hurt.

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So I've been reading through this thread and, although I'm white and across the other side of the pond, I've got some input here directed @Anacybele because the thing is, yours is a similar mindset to one I had in high school, when I was less aware. You're where I was maybe 5 years ago, so I understand you're coming from a place of innocence, but this mindset is one borne of indoctrination. I'm going to repeat some stuff that others have said throughout this thread but there are some really important points you need to understand on this.

First, and I think most important for you to understand, is that we, as the privileged race, are not meant to feel comfortable about protests. When we're comfortable, it means we can look away and pretend all this isn't happening. When we're debating about the validity of a protest and whether people are protesting "correctly", the people who don't want the world to be a better place, who want to keep minorities underfoot, the same people who want you to be an outcast for having autism; they're winning. These protests aren't polite and they aren't pretty because that doesn't grab attention. This is happening now because those with power and privilege didn't listen in the past. Now we're being made to listen because things need to change. I understand the impulse to question the morality of the protests, but ask yourself what's more important: brick and mortar or real, human lives? If there's something you don't like about the protests, acknowledge it, but also accept that it's happening in the service of a brighter future (bad actors notwithstanding).

Second, police in America are systemically corrupt and racist, we just don't see it usually because it doesn't affect us. If you use Twitter, then you must have seen at least some videos and posts about the horrific and reprehensible acts being committed by police during these protests. One of the more notorious examples of police brutality was committed against an elderly white man who approached the police in a non-violent manner; he was pushed back by the police until he fell over and began bleeding from his ears. His name is Martin Gugino. I won't link the video in the interests of keeping in line with the rules on forbidden content, but a quick search will turn up the relevant information. Bear in mind this is but one of the many documented incidents of police brutality that has occurred in the wake of the protests. This in particularly was something I had difficulty accepting because I, like many people, had bought into the idealised version of the police that we see on TV and in the movies, when in reality that isn't necessarily the case.

As such, when people talk about defunding and abolishing the police, the idea is to redistribute these resources into other areas of society to improve quality of life in order to prevent crime. Now, I say this as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in the full abolition of the police, but the 2019-2020 police budget for Los Angeles alone was $1.8 billion. This money could and should be put into other services to fix the system and take away a lot of the factors that prevent crime. For example, a better schooling system that actively helps disadvantaged kids, allowing them to go into the world as adults with the same opportunities and basic standard of living as everybody else, so they won't be motivated towards theft out of necessity. People don't talk about defunding the police in a vacuum, they want to use defunding the police as a means of putting more funding into other essential services so the police won't be needed as much. And sure, there are some people who are just rotten, and we will need to deal with those people, but just because we might not see a way to make the system perfect right now doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve it at all.

And finally, there's Trump. Some people expected the Trump administration to turn out the way it has, some people didn't. I won't hold it against you for voting Trump because it ultimately achieves nothing, but throughout his term he has shown himself to be an unstable, selfish demagogue. Through these protests alone he has taken George Floyd's name in vain by baselessly claiming that Floyd would be happy to see Trump send in the national guard to quell the protests against the police brutality that lead to his death. He tried to pin the blame for Martin Gugino's serious injuries on the man himself by saying that he fell harder than he was pushed. Is this really the man you want to support? Consider that you're in a minority. You have a developmental disorder. Others with such disorders have said that their communication difficulties have led to tensions with the police in the past. If you're murdered by police brutality one day because they couldn't understand or respect your challenges (god forbid) and people protest your murder, would the man claiming that you're happy for people to be violently subdued in support of your murders really be someone you want to stand behind?

If you take away nothing else from what I've said, take away this: It's never too late to change your mind. We won't think less of you for it. Adjusting your mindset based on new information as it's presented to you isn't defeat, it's growing as a person to respond to a more accurate view of the world. You're uncomfortable about protests which have been visible to use for about a month. You're uncomfortable about Disney retheming a ride and the idea that it may have come about because of these protests. People of colour are uncomfortable because there are government sanctioned officers on the streets who can and will brutalise them for any perceived slight. People of colour are uncomfortable because their existence is, for some people, reason enough to hate them, simply for the colour of their skin. There are people in this thread who have explained things better than I ever could, and there will be more who will do the same, but I'm trying to reach out to you because I understand where you are and I don't want you to fall into a mindset that turns a blind eye to suffering, and I think everyone else who's disagreeing with you would share that sentiment. As a final request, please give this video a watch, it's helped me understand so much better how privileged I am. It's not a hard or unpleasant watch for a white person, but it is an important one:

 

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8 minutes ago, ~Alex~ said:

 we, as the privileged race, are not meant to feel comfortable about protests.

I've always hated the term "white privilege". It implies that white people are spoiled and considered an "elite class" instead of being considered the "default" citizen and makes it sound like white people have never truly earned anything on their own merit or have ever suffered.

"Black hardship" sounds like a better term that wouldn't make people defensive.

Edited by FrostyFireMage

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1 minute ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I've always hated the term "white privilege". It implies that white people are spoiled and considered an "elite class" instead of being considered the "default" citizen and makes it sound like white people have never truly earned anything on their own merit or have ever suffered.

"Black suffrage' sounds like a better term that wouldn't make people defensive.

That's distinction without a difference. The implication that you believe white people ought to be considered the default shows just how deeply embedded our privilege is into people's worldviews. I have absolutely suffered in my life. I was bullied and isolated through school and it's had lasting consequences on my mental health. But I am absolutely privileged in the fact that I can exist without fear that someone meant to uphold the community may take my life simply because they don't like my skin colour. "Black suffrage", while perhaps still accurate, takes the onus off of white people. Sure, lots of individual white people are decent, upstanding people, perhaps even the majority of white people are, but white people are massively benefit from a broken system simply because they were lucky enough to be born with the "right" skin colour. And I reiterate the point about comfort. Taking the focus away from white privilege allows people benefiting from said privilege to feel comfortable. And when the people at the top are comfortable, nothing changes for the disadvantaged and disenfranchised.

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11 minutes ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I've always hated the term "white privilege". It implies that white people are spoiled and considered an "elite class" instead of being considered the "default" citizen and makes it sound like white people have never truly earned anything on their own merit or have ever suffered.

"Black hardship" sounds like a better term that wouldn't make people defensive.

If your main problem is one of semantics, you've got issues

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33 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

If your main problem is one of semantics, you've got issues

oh you mean like how black people can't be racist because it requires "privilege + power"?

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4 minutes ago, FrostyFireMage said:

oh you mean like how black people can't be racist because it requires "privilege + power"?

nice meltdown, racist

Also no. The simple truth is that it's a matter of perspective. From the perspective of white americans, black americans are disadvantaged. From the perspective of black americans, white americans are advantaged.

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1 hour ago, AlexArtsHere said:

So I've been reading through this thread and, although I'm white and across the other side of the pond, I've got some input here directed @Anacybele because the thing is, yours is a similar mindset to one I had in high school, when I was less aware. You're where I was maybe 5 years ago, so I understand you're coming from a place of innocence, but this mindset is one borne of indoctrination. I'm going to repeat some stuff that others have said throughout this thread but there are some really important points you need to understand on this.

First, and I think most important for you to understand, is that we, as the privileged race, are not meant to feel comfortable about protests. When we're comfortable, it means we can look away and pretend all this isn't happening. When we're debating about the validity of a protest and whether people are protesting "correctly", the people who don't want the world to be a better place, who want to keep minorities underfoot, the same people who want you to be an outcast for having autism; they're winning. These protests aren't polite and they aren't pretty because that doesn't grab attention. This is happening now because those with power and privilege didn't listen in the past. Now we're being made to listen because things need to change. I understand the impulse to question the morality of the protests, but ask yourself what's more important: brick and mortar or real, human lives? If there's something you don't like about the protests, acknowledge it, but also accept that it's happening in the service of a brighter future (bad actors notwithstanding).

Second, police in America are systemically corrupt and racist, we just don't see it usually because it doesn't affect us. If you use Twitter, then you must have seen at least some videos and posts about the horrific and reprehensible acts being committed by police during these protests. One of the more notorious examples of police brutality was committed against an elderly white man who approached the police in a non-violent manner; he was pushed back by the police until he fell over and began bleeding from his ears. His name is Martin Gugino. I won't link the video in the interests of keeping in line with the rules on forbidden content, but a quick search will turn up the relevant information. Bear in mind this is but one of the many documented incidents of police brutality that has occurred in the wake of the protests. This in particularly was something I had difficulty accepting because I, like many people, had bought into the idealised version of the police that we see on TV and in the movies, when in reality that isn't necessarily the case.

As such, when people talk about defunding and abolishing the police, the idea is to redistribute these resources into other areas of society to improve quality of life in order to prevent crime. Now, I say this as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in the full abolition of the police, but the 2019-2020 police budget for Los Angeles alone was $1.8 billion. This money could and should be put into other services to fix the system and take away a lot of the factors that prevent crime. For example, a better schooling system that actively helps disadvantaged kids, allowing them to go into the world as adults with the same opportunities and basic standard of living as everybody else, so they won't be motivated towards theft out of necessity. People don't talk about defunding the police in a vacuum, they want to use defunding the police as a means of putting more funding into other essential services so the police won't be needed as much. And sure, there are some people who are just rotten, and we will need to deal with those people, but just because we might not see a way to make the system perfect right now doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve it at all.

And finally, there's Trump. Some people expected the Trump administration to turn out the way it has, some people didn't. I won't hold it against you for voting Trump because it ultimately achieves nothing, but throughout his term he has shown himself to be an unstable, selfish demagogue. Through these protests alone he has taken George Floyd's name in vain by baselessly claiming that Floyd would be happy to see Trump send in the national guard to quell the protests against the police brutality that lead to his death. He tried to pin the blame for Martin Gugino's serious injuries on the man himself by saying that he fell harder than he was pushed. Is this really the man you want to support? Consider that you're in a minority. You have a developmental disorder. Others with such disorders have said that their communication difficulties have led to tensions with the police in the past. If you're murdered by police brutality one day because they couldn't understand or respect your challenges (god forbid) and people protest your murder, would the man claiming that you're happy for people to be violently subdued in support of your murders really be someone you want to stand behind?

If you take away nothing else from what I've said, take away this: It's never too late to change your mind. We won't think less of you for it. Adjusting your mindset based on new information as it's presented to you isn't defeat, it's growing as a person to respond to a more accurate view of the world. You're uncomfortable about protests which have been visible to use for about a month. You're uncomfortable about Disney retheming a ride and the idea that it may have come about because of these protests. People of colour are uncomfortable because there are government sanctioned officers on the streets who can and will brutalise them for any perceived slight. People of colour are uncomfortable because their existence is, for some people, reason enough to hate them, simply for the colour of their skin. There are people in this thread who have explained things better than I ever could, and there will be more who will do the same, but I'm trying to reach out to you because I understand where you are and I don't want you to fall into a mindset that turns a blind eye to suffering, and I think everyone else who's disagreeing with you would share that sentiment. As a final request, please give this video a watch, it's helped me understand so much better how privileged I am. It's not a hard or unpleasant watch for a white person, but it is an important one:

 

This just all of this. Like I said I’m not one to condone violence but when the system is this broken and corrupt and after years of this constant abuse at the hands of this system something is gonna have to give at some point. Minorities can only take so much abuse for so damn long and eventually the abused will snap so that their voices are heard. That’s really all this is about really. People just want their voices to be heard. We can criticize their actions but by no means are they unjustified

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22 minutes ago, FrostyFireMage said:

Way to throw that word around like it has no meaning anymore

you're treading dangerously close to JAQing off here mate, i recommend taking a breather outside.

 

this is a mod post, by the way, not a happy user post, it's not up for debate.

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1 hour ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I've always hated the term "white privilege". It implies that white people are spoiled and considered an "elite class" instead of being considered the "default" citizen and makes it sound like white people have never truly earned anything on their own merit or have ever suffered.

"Black hardship" sounds like a better term that wouldn't make people defensive.

The same people currently complaining that they don't like the use of the term "white privilege" would still find the term objectionable, and still throw out the exact same gripes about "playing the race card" and "acting like victims"

Its the content of the message they can't accept + respond negatively to when confronted with. Not the packaging. 

(The content of course being that systematic racism still exists as an oppressive force against people of color in America, and requires further action to remedy)    

Edited by Shoblongoo

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2 hours ago, AlexArtsHere said:

So I've been reading through this thread and, although I'm white and across the other side of the pond, I've got some input here directed @Anacybele because the thing is, yours is a similar mindset to one I had in high school, when I was less aware. You're where I was maybe 5 years ago, so I understand you're coming from a place of innocence, but this mindset is one borne of indoctrination. I'm going to repeat some stuff that others have said throughout this thread but there are some really important points you need to understand on this.

First, and I think most important for you to understand, is that we, as the privileged race, are not meant to feel comfortable about protests. When we're comfortable, it means we can look away and pretend all this isn't happening. When we're debating about the validity of a protest and whether people are protesting "correctly", the people who don't want the world to be a better place, who want to keep minorities underfoot, the same people who want you to be an outcast for having autism; they're winning. These protests aren't polite and they aren't pretty because that doesn't grab attention. This is happening now because those with power and privilege didn't listen in the past. Now we're being made to listen because things need to change. I understand the impulse to question the morality of the protests, but ask yourself what's more important: brick and mortar or real, human lives? If there's something you don't like about the protests, acknowledge it, but also accept that it's happening in the service of a brighter future (bad actors notwithstanding).

Second, police in America are systemically corrupt and racist, we just don't see it usually because it doesn't affect us. If you use Twitter, then you must have seen at least some videos and posts about the horrific and reprehensible acts being committed by police during these protests. One of the more notorious examples of police brutality was committed against an elderly white man who approached the police in a non-violent manner; he was pushed back by the police until he fell over and began bleeding from his ears. His name is Martin Gugino. I won't link the video in the interests of keeping in line with the rules on forbidden content, but a quick search will turn up the relevant information. Bear in mind this is but one of the many documented incidents of police brutality that has occurred in the wake of the protests. This in particularly was something I had difficulty accepting because I, like many people, had bought into the idealised version of the police that we see on TV and in the movies, when in reality that isn't necessarily the case.

As such, when people talk about defunding and abolishing the police, the idea is to redistribute these resources into other areas of society to improve quality of life in order to prevent crime. Now, I say this as someone who doesn't necessarily believe in the full abolition of the police, but the 2019-2020 police budget for Los Angeles alone was $1.8 billion. This money could and should be put into other services to fix the system and take away a lot of the factors that prevent crime. For example, a better schooling system that actively helps disadvantaged kids, allowing them to go into the world as adults with the same opportunities and basic standard of living as everybody else, so they won't be motivated towards theft out of necessity. People don't talk about defunding the police in a vacuum, they want to use defunding the police as a means of putting more funding into other essential services so the police won't be needed as much. And sure, there are some people who are just rotten, and we will need to deal with those people, but just because we might not see a way to make the system perfect right now doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve it at all.

And finally, there's Trump. Some people expected the Trump administration to turn out the way it has, some people didn't. I won't hold it against you for voting Trump because it ultimately achieves nothing, but throughout his term he has shown himself to be an unstable, selfish demagogue. Through these protests alone he has taken George Floyd's name in vain by baselessly claiming that Floyd would be happy to see Trump send in the national guard to quell the protests against the police brutality that lead to his death. He tried to pin the blame for Martin Gugino's serious injuries on the man himself by saying that he fell harder than he was pushed. Is this really the man you want to support? Consider that you're in a minority. You have a developmental disorder. Others with such disorders have said that their communication difficulties have led to tensions with the police in the past. If you're murdered by police brutality one day because they couldn't understand or respect your challenges (god forbid) and people protest your murder, would the man claiming that you're happy for people to be violently subdued in support of your murders really be someone you want to stand behind?

If you take away nothing else from what I've said, take away this: It's never too late to change your mind. We won't think less of you for it. Adjusting your mindset based on new information as it's presented to you isn't defeat, it's growing as a person to respond to a more accurate view of the world. You're uncomfortable about protests which have been visible to use for about a month. You're uncomfortable about Disney retheming a ride and the idea that it may have come about because of these protests. People of colour are uncomfortable because there are government sanctioned officers on the streets who can and will brutalise them for any perceived slight. People of colour are uncomfortable because their existence is, for some people, reason enough to hate them, simply for the colour of their skin. There are people in this thread who have explained things better than I ever could, and there will be more who will do the same, but I'm trying to reach out to you because I understand where you are and I don't want you to fall into a mindset that turns a blind eye to suffering, and I think everyone else who's disagreeing with you would share that sentiment. As a final request, please give this video a watch, it's helped me understand so much better how privileged I am. It's not a hard or unpleasant watch for a white person, but it is an important one

 

I have to say this is a great post and everybody needs to take a couple of minutes to read it. @Anacybele I strongly suggest you to reflect on that post, because I don't think anyone here could have summarized it any better.

(Can't watch the video right now since I'm at a meeting at work, but I definitely will later on.)

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7 hours ago, FrostyFireMage said:

- why'd they have to protest and gather in huge numbers in the middle of a pandemic, couldn't it wait? 

No, COVID has exacerbated race issues by targeting black people, poor people, and other minorities in greater numbers than white people. A lot of milennials have shit jobs and shit wages and are due for shit wages, and many of these people are unemployed because of a pandemic that Trump botched and continues to make worse.

If we didn't have COVID, we wouldn't be seeing these protests.

There's nothing left to lose for a lot of these protesters.

 

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5 minutes ago, Excellen Browning said:

nice meltdown, racist

Also no. The simple truth is that it's a matter of perspective. From the perspective of white americans, black americans are disadvantaged. From the perspective of black americans, white americans are advantaged.

Regardless, suggesting that there's no such thing as being racist towards whites is no better and only fuels the white supremacist movement which might as well be the enemy of everyone including whites that aren't racists. There's definitely instances where people go too far when they're calling others racists and things like this particular part of Reddit's recent policy changes:

Quote

While the rule on hate protects such groups, it does not protect all groups or all forms of identity. For example, the rule does not protect groups of people who are in the majority or who promote such attacks of hate.

This is dumb and needs to be changed. I've seen talk that there's a subreddit requiring photo of a person's dark skin to join and that this particular subreddit spends most of its time just attacking whites. If this is the truth, it should be purged as well or at the very least, cut that shit out. Again, the race issue should be this simple, regardless of color/race/whatever, simply consider if you're ok with the situation being flipped. Personally, I wish folks just realized that's there's the just the human race but this isn't happening in my lifetime.

1 hour ago, FrostyFireMage said:

I've always hated the term "white privilege". It implies that white people are spoiled and considered an "elite class" instead of being considered the "default" citizen and makes it sound like white people have never truly earned anything on their own merit or have ever suffered.

"Black hardship" sounds like a better term that wouldn't make people defensive.

I'm sure the term does suck from your perspective but that disdain is better aimed against white supremacists looking to perpetuate the advantages and disadvantages the folks of the past created and the damage they have done. "Spoiled" and "Elite" are not the words I would use to describe whites (although I've definitely seen instances where I would definitely call some spoiled) in the context of white privilege but the fact is that as divisive as that term can be, it does not exist without merit. No, I'm not suggesting that just because a person is white they're directly responsible but the fact is that it is true that there's many situations in which being white just puts you in a better situation. Efforts being made to change things like this are always being impeded by the right-wing in the country due to their aforementioned overlap with white supremacists.

In Alabama, a black pregnant woman who was shot and her unborn baby died faced manslaughter charges while in Ohio a white woman was found "not guilty" despite her effectively killing her baby by burying her in the backyard. Fortunately, the charges against the black woman in Alabama were eventually dropped but that was still bullshit and a contributing factor for those charges being dropped may have been that the case caught national attention.

I've seen footage of white women stopped by cops on the road just angrily chewing the cop out while Philando Castile's case exists and his killer got acquitted. If you're from a white majority country like Norway, Trump would love for you to come live in the US while for those that are Chinese are being attacked due to COVID-19 and there's the known issue of whites calling the police on black for no real reason which the younger generation has picked up that such a thing is a potential death sentence. The list goes on.

The term itself is not the problem and as Shob said, changing it will just see the same people spouting talking points and pretend it's not a thing (see example #1 specifically in that video) because there's an audience for this and it makes them money. To solve a problem, it needs to be understood and acknowledged.

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4 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

This is dumb and needs to be changed. I've seen talk that there's a subreddit requiring photo of a person's dark skin to join and that this particular subreddit spends most of its time just attacking whites.

/r/FragileWhiteRedditer makes fun of redditers who post dogwhistles and complain about white privilege.

/r/BlackPeopleTwitter is the subreddit you're thinking of, but it's not "attacking" white people it's stuff like this at its general worst. You have to be black to submit tweets and need to be verified, but I think you can comment regardless. Mostly because when white people could post, it got really racist...

Those are the two I can think of. I don't like FWR mostly because it encourages brigades, but BPT is generally pretty fine.

 

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5 hours ago, epilepsyduck said:

If we're talking about "demonizing" the cops here,

They never specified which side was being demonized, or even if it was only one side. After all, what tends to make headlines and grab the public's attention? Cops doing their job properly and peaceful protests, or police and rioters inciting and taking part in violent actions against anything? This was the case before the current situation, it was the case decades if not centuries ago, and will likely continue long after this whole thing is over.

 

Anyway, I hate the term "white privilege" the same as I hate any label that casts a net over a large group of people from all perspectives and walks of life. It encourages pointing fingers, placing blame, and getting people riled up instead of promoting positive changes. I am far from saying that racial issues (or other topics if speaking in a general sense) don't exist, nor will I deny that they can be difficult to notice if it doesn't affect someone personally. Yet descriptions like these are unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst.

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19 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Anyway, I hate the term "white privilege" the same as I hate any label that casts a net over a large group of people from all perspectives and walks of life. It encourages pointing fingers, placing blame, and getting people riled up instead of promoting positive changes.

As someone who on principal hates the same concept, that doesn't apply here. White privilege refers to the discrepancy between the way white people are treated compared to people of colour in similar situations. It's not inherently a means by which to undermine the input or existence of white people, it's simply the term for how white people benefit over people of colour in white majority countries, even if said people may suffer in other areas (usually due to fitting into other categories that face frequent prejudice).

Basic example, a white person and a black person each apply for the same job with the same qualifications and the same performance in the interview. If the white person gets chosen for that job because the colour of their skin leads them to be viewed more favourably in the eyes of the person responsible for hiring (either intentionally or unintentionally), that's them benefiting from white privilege. It's not they're fault, they're not bad for being white, but it's an illustration of how deeply embedded racism and white privilege is into not only the U.S., but the U.K. and parts of Europe too.

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