Best and worst units in three houses

[FrostyFireMage]

Ashe is the only character besides Bernadetta and Yuri to learn Deadeye so I think that's worth something

[FireEmblemFan3475]

I've always seen caspar as being the most underwhelming unit; dodgy growths,situational personal and is just far outclassed in everything he does. He is supposed to be a physical frontline unit but can only deal a small amount of damage and take a small amount in return. He became even more useless when balthus released back in february: dis man is literally just caspar with better stats and growths in pretty much everything. I'm doing a maddening run and I do not intend to babysit caspar to make him good when even raphael is more useful.

Speaking of, raphael is another underwhelming unit. He falls into the trope of being a slow but heavy hitting unit. This type of unit SUCKS in 3h. Raphael has a 15% speed growth without being but into armoured knight/fortress knight (speed becomes 5%). Everything he does is once again done better by balthus and even dedue

[FireEmblemFan3475]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say Ashe is better than Raphael, who I'd consider the king of underwhelming. What in the name of Hylia can he do that someone else can't do better? He has high HP, but that doesn't make him a good tank because he's so slow he'd get doubled by a snail on depressants. And now we have Balthus, who practically renders him obsolete. I gave up on him in my first run because he was getting nowhere fast. Long story short, I can't find a good reason to suffer through the trouble of raising him. Ditto for Lorenz, who only has it slightly better.

I disagree with lorenz.

All his growths are good (40-60 I think?), has a bunch of viable class paths, and is also the ONLY bulky mage in three houses. He has an amazing spell list (ragnarock,agneas arrow, abraxas), has high str as well as magic, and as previously mentioned, is the only bulky mage in the game. He also has good combat arts for his kit. He can even be a viable support (recover and ward combined with high movement). He also has the best accessory heroes relic in the game, giving aegis, pavise and +2 to magic range.

Lorenz is not underwhelming in the slightest, if anything, he is a little overwhelming.

 

Note: this is a NG+ file i'm starting on and my previous lorenz had poison strike and lifetaker, making him perfect for a NG+ run

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, lenticular said:

I've always found the concerns about Raphael's speed to be somewhat overblown. Sure, he's slow as a tortoise wading through treacle but in practical terms, there often isn't any difference between terrible speed and mediocre speed. If you're making a fortress knight, it doesn't matter whether your speed growth is 15 (Raphael) or 30 (Balthus), you're still getting doubled by basically everything. If you send both through fighter and armor knight, then certify in warrior for the stat boosts, then spend the rest of the game in fortress knight, then by level 40 you'll expect (on average) Raphael to have a speed of 9 and Balthus to have a speed of 12. That is just not a significant difference at that level.

I know a lot of people hate fortress knight and will never use it, and that's fine. I find it completely usable, but to each their own. But for anyone who is looking to build a physical wall, he's one of the best, if not the best. You may not like his niche or ever want to use it, and I totally understand that, but at least he has a niche.

That doesn't change the fact that he's outclassed at said niche.

16 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Quick Riposte does end up fixing a lot of the issues you mention (I mean it is an amazing skill anyway). I'm sure you'd say that the pain of getting Raph to master War Master isn't worth the effort, and I'd agree that it's really painful, having actually done it on my VW run. But it does bring results - he stays in Quick Riposte HP thresholds for longer than anyone else except a dodge tank, and that high HP is the niche I'd assume people are referring to for Raph. Also, Killer Axe/Killer Knuckles will often get a crit on the counter, which is at least enough for big chip on enemy phase. So, like every unit, he's usable with enough effort, and the niche he brings to an army can be effective, especially for the Deer. 

On the flip side, Death Blow + Hunter's Volley Ashe (which I imagine is Ashe's biggest damage output? Maybe there's a more powerful Ashe build idk) is done better by literally everyone who would be a physical Sniper. I've described other potential Ashe builds earlier in this thread - as a permanent Thief or as a stat debuffer - and both of those niches can be done better too (Assassin is a good enough class to use if you don't want to bring a Chest Key, and both Ignatz and Hilda are GD natives who can do debuffing as well as something else). So Raph slightly edges it for me over Ashe in terms of who is more useful in battle, although both of them are a drag for significant portions of the game.

The problem is, dragging Raphael along for that long is about as practical as trying to drag along a Crabrawler in Sun and Moon - aka, not at all. (For context, Crabrawler evolves from being leveled up in a certain area. The problem? Said area happens to be the last area right before the Elite Four. The only hint as to this? One of the Elite Four uses said evolution on his team. This being said, Ultra Sun and Moon changed this as to make it much more practical, as you can access the area in question much earlier.) I don't have much, if any, reason to believe that this is even remotely worth it. Especially when most everyone else only needs a fraction of the effort he needs to be decent, much less good.

6 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I disagree with lorenz.

All his growths are good (40-60 I think?), has a bunch of viable class paths, and is also the ONLY bulky mage in three houses. He has an amazing spell list (ragnarock,agneas arrow, abraxas), has high str as well as magic, and as previously mentioned, is the only bulky mage in the game. He also has good combat arts for his kit. He can even be a viable support (recover and ward combined with high movement). He also has the best accessory heroes relic in the game, giving aegis, pavise and +2 to magic range.

Lorenz is not underwhelming in the slightest, if anything, he is a little overwhelming.

I fail to see it - he doesn't excel in anything. That is NOT a good thing, by the way. In terms of magic, not only does he have the misfortune of being in the same house as Lysithea, but his spell list isn't even that good. It doesn't help that the good magic classes are locked to females. Physically, he doesn't stack up to Claude, much less Hilda or Byleth. By the way, Heroes' Relics can be used by anyone.

[FireEmblemFan3475]

19 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't change the fact that he's outclassed at said niche.

The problem is, dragging Raphael along for that long is about as practical as trying to drag along a Crabrawler in Sun and Moon - aka, not at all. (For context, Crabrawler evolves from being leveled up in a certain area. The problem? Said area happens to be the last area right before the Elite Four. The only hint as to this? One of the Elite Four uses said evolution on his team. This being said, Ultra Sun and Moon changed this as to make it much more practical, as you can access the area in question much earlier.) I don't have much, if any, reason to believe that this is even remotely worth it. Especially when most everyone else only needs a fraction of the effort he needs to be decent, much less good.

I fail to see it - he doesn't excel in anything. That is NOT a good thing, by the way. In terms of magic, not only does he have the misfortune of being in the same house as Lysithea, but his spell list isn't even that good. It doesn't help that the good magic classes are locked to females. Physically, he doesn't stack up to Claude, much less Hilda or Byleth. By the way, Heroes' Relics can be used by anyone.

He is the only bulky mage. Lysithea dies if any unit breathes in her general direction

[FireEmblemFan3475]

The worst units are definitely ashe, manuella, caspar, raphael and gilbert

[haarhaarhaar]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't have much, if any, reason to believe that this is even remotely worth it. Especially when most everyone else only needs a fraction of the effort he needs to be decent, much less good

I do agree with this sentiment - even if you're on GD, Raph's niche isn't good enough IMO to warrant getting him all the way to Quick Riposte where he has an enemy phase, or even using him enough to get to Fierce Iron Fist when he semi-reliably gets kills. The only point I wanted to make is that Raph could at least serve a purpose on your endgame team (because he will outperform everyone for HP growths which is important for staying in range of QR), whereas pretty much every bow user/flier/paladin will do better damage than Ashe, and Ashe doesn't have any niche that warrants his inclusion in an endgame party.

[Anathaco]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't change the fact that he's outclassed at said niche.

There are only a couple characters that are competitive with Raphael at all for the physical tank niche. Dedue does outclass him, but at the same time is BL only, so unless you go out of your way to recruit Raphael, there isn't a competition because you can't use Dedue. The other character is Balthus, but it's not as hopeless as you might think. Raphael has 2 higher base hp and a 15% higher HP growth, and actually ties with Balthus in defence, both in base stats and growth rates. Balthus' ONLY advantage over Raphael is his personal skill, which, while it can make a fairly significant difference (+6 defence is pretty nice), it only works when under 50% hp. I'm not too familiar with Maddening stat benchmarks, so I couldn't tell you if it actually would make a significant difference, or if the defence boost will usually come too little, too late. Regardless, I think Raphael can at least hold his own when compared to Balthus (in terms of physical tanking, that is, Balthus obviously has a lot of other advantages).

In OP's case, however, Balthus doesn't exist because they don't have DLC. So Raphael basically becomes the best tank of GD. 

So yeah, I'd say Raphael at least has one thing going for him, that can be utilised pretty well on Golden Deer at the very least, if you so desire.

Ok, now to actually respond to the topic at hand:

I second Linhardt for his Leonie paralogue + he can at least find some use as another warp bot. And others have already suggested Felix and Petra as recruits- they're just good.

My personal pick for worst unit in the game would have to be Anna, since all around mediocre stats + bad personal + no supports is just not a good combo at all. But if we're going specifically in the context of this playthrough, I'd have to reluctantly agree with Ashe- there's just not really anything significant he offers that can't be replicated by somebody else. I like Ashe, so I try and make him at least usable when I can, but without that bias there isn't much reason that I can see to use him. Caspar at least performs well once you get him to War Master/Grappler (if you stick with him long enough, at least) and poor bases aside, he has one of the easiest times getting there, plus using him will get you the Rafail gem and potentially the Scythe of Sariel through Mercedes' paralogue.

 

[Shadow Mir]

On 7/2/2020 at 11:38 AM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

He is the only bulky mage. Lysithea dies if any unit breathes in her general direction

Yeah, well, "bulky mages" aren't a thing on Maddening. Enemy attack power eventually gets so high that even a "bulky mage" would end up dead several times over if they were attacked.

On 6/30/2020 at 7:55 AM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

flayn will be a holyknight (I dont have DlC, meaning flayn is my only way of using rescue)

I would recommend making her a Gremory instead of Holy Knight - Holy Knight is just bad. Not to mention Flayn is weak in Riding anyway.

17 hours ago, Anathaco said:

There are only a couple characters that are competitive with Raphael at all for the physical tank niche. Dedue does outclass him, but at the same time is BL only, so unless you go out of your way to recruit Raphael, there isn't a competition because you can't use Dedue. The other character is Balthus, but it's not as hopeless as you might think. Raphael has 2 higher base hp and a 15% higher HP growth, and actually ties with Balthus in defence, both in base stats and growth rates. Balthus' ONLY advantage over Raphael is his personal skill, which, while it can make a fairly significant difference (+6 defence is pretty nice), it only works when under 50% hp. I'm not too familiar with Maddening stat benchmarks, so I couldn't tell you if it actually would make a significant difference, or if the defence boost will usually come too little, too late. Regardless, I think Raphael can at least hold his own when compared to Balthus (in terms of physical tanking, that is, Balthus obviously has a lot of other advantages).

In OP's case, however, Balthus doesn't exist because they don't have DLC. So Raphael basically becomes the best tank of GD. 

So yeah, I'd say Raphael at least has one thing going for him, that can be utilised pretty well on Golden Deer at the very least, if you so desire.

I'll grant Dedue is BL only, but I don't see Raphael being a good tank any time soon, as he's always being doubled, and it's not like he has a noteworthy durability edge over anyone else to make up for it.

[haarhaarhaar]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't see Raphael being a good tank any time soon, as he's always being doubled, and it's not like he has a noteworthy durability edge over anyone else to make up for it.

The HP stuff that @Anathaco laid out quite well seems to be that durability edge?

In Maddening early game almost everyone is being doubled all the time. Dedue is potentially the only unit who regularly survives getting doubled on Maddening. Next on that list is Raph, simply because he's likely to have enough HP to eat two hits. Once everyone's speed gets out of the pits, Raph's tankiness starts tailing off, but that's where you stick him in armoured classes to get his def up. He, as well as about a third to a half of your army, are still going to get doubled for most of your run. And if you like or need to use meatshields (which you might) and Dedue isn't available (which is 3 routes + early Part II AM) then Raph is the guy you turn to. It still isn't that reliable, but that's just because meatshields are an unreliable strat for Maddening in general. It doesn't make Raph worse at being a tank than anyone else bar Dedue. And as I've said before, that niche can be used effectively in your endgame.

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

The HP stuff that @Anathaco laid out quite well seems to be that durability edge?

In Maddening early game almost everyone is being doubled all the time. Dedue is potentially the only unit who regularly survives getting doubled on Maddening. Next on that list is Raph, simply because he's likely to have enough HP to eat two hits. Once everyone's speed gets out of the pits, Raph's tankiness starts tailing off, but that's where you stick him in armoured classes to get his def up. He, as well as about a third to a half of your army, are still going to get doubled for most of your run. And if you like or need to use meatshields (which you might) and Dedue isn't available (which is 3 routes + early Part II AM) then Raph is the guy you turn to. It still isn't that reliable, but that's just because meatshields are an unreliable strat for Maddening in general. It doesn't make Raph worse at being a tank than anyone else bar Dedue. And as I've said before, that niche can be used effectively in your endgame.

He doesn't even start with that much of a durability advantage - he only has 1 HP and Defense over Hilda. I highly doubt that's gonna amount to much, especially when her speed gets out of always being doubled range.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

He doesn't even start with that much of a durability advantage - he only has 1 HP and Defense over Hilda. I highly doubt that's gonna amount to much, especially when her speed gets out of always being doubled range.

Hilda actually does make a good tank, early on and throughout the game (although you will have to focus her build on that). And If Hilda does take up the role of tank in your army, it might be that you don't want/need Raph at all. But of course there's no guarantee that Hilda will be a tank throughout your playthrough, or that you'll want her to play that role. And since Raph still does meatshield at least a bit better, while Hilda can serve other purposes better than Raph, it would make sense on VW to make Raph into a tank and Hilda into something else (like a flier).

Raph only really has one thing he can do well, and even then he doesn't do it that well. But since almost nobody does it better, that is the argument for why you might include Raph in your endgame. The reason Raph's tankiness was brought up was in comparison to Ashe, for whom there is no very convincing argument for endgame inclusion. No one is disputing that Raph isn't great, after all.