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FireEmblemFan3475

Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind

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Point one: Ever heard of lysithea's def?

Lysithea is an amazing unit who is literally a walking nuke, but dies when any enemy so much as breathes in her general direction. Even her res is pretty bad. Lorenz, on the other hand, depending on his class path, can have a def growth of 40% (lysithea has 10%), making him the only bulky mage. He is the only mage who can hold his own on the frontline, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Point two: What the hell is a wide spell list?

There are some pretty good high magic power users in this game who have a pretty bad spell list (Hanneman, Sylvain, to name a few), who can't properly utilize their magic completely (Hanneman is good with magic bow though). Lorenz, on the other hand, has fire,sagiatte, ragnarock and AGNEAS ARROW. Despite having less powerful magic than say marianne or lysithea, he makes up for it with ridiculously powerful spells.

Point three: y u no heal lysithea ūüėě ?

Lorenz has access to recover (most units have this but its still useful and WARD. Lorenz is the only unit (which is viable) that has access to ward. This helps lorenz in the long run become even more useful at support roles. Lysithea only has access to heal, making her even less flexible.

Point four: What is this madness? a mage with high strength?

Unlike every other mage, lorenz actually has decent str and decent combat arts (lysithea does have soulblade), allowing him to remain on the frontlines slightly longer, whilst once again increasing his versatility. If lorenz runs out of usages on his spells, his decent speed allows for doubling occasionally (consistently in my case), meaning having a silver lance or brave lance is also viable.

Point five: tough luck, Lorenz also has the best heroes relic.

Thrysus, an accessory relic, gives +2 magic range (4 range ragnarock!), which is busted, but if a unit has a crest of gloucester, they get pavise/aegis a lot of the time. Lorenz and lysithea have access to this effect.

point six: What is so special about gremory?

Gremory is literally just handicapped dark knight but also is exclusive to female units. Its extremely overrated; its only advantage is slightly higher charm and dexterity growth. Dark knight has higher mobility, versatility, strength and equal magical capabilities. If anything, lysithea is misssing out on access to poison strike and lifetaker (both help lorenz become more bulky).

 

Overall, I think lorenz is completely written off by lorenz' at first having a bad personality and also the worst hair to ever be designed. I've noticed that people constantly will tell that characters they don't like are also bad (this happens to hanneman as well). Lorenz is easily one of the best units in the game without having to put much work in. 
 

Edited by FireEmblemFan3475

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7 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

False, has a decent speed growth and his class paths mostly help with that

Which ones? The mage lines that do nothing for his speed, or the cavalry lines that reduce his speed growth?

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Which ones? The mage lines that do nothing for his speed, or the cavalry lines that reduce his speed growth?

Make him myrimidon at the beginning for 45% speed growth and +2 speed, both of which help with doubling

 

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In my opinion, Lorenz has a pretty large disparity between his performance in the Golden Deer and in other houses, this comes from multiple factors

*Joining later

*Having mediocre weapon levels when he joins like many out of house students

*Going through the cavalier line when he auto-levels which doesn't help his magic + speed.

*Temporarily leaving in Azure Moon and Silver Snow which leads to him falling behind

Thrysus is a really good relic but anyone with a crest can use it without penalty and the pavise/aegis effect isn't exactly something to rely on.

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I may have gone too far. Spoilers because of size.

Spoiler

Lorenz does tend to be slow from personal experience. I've gotten to see him be at least halfway decent speed wise before, but it wouldn't cut the mustard in Maddening. So what has he got that could make him work with one big hit?

His magic list is very unexceptional, Reason giving him Sagittae and all the fire spells (which does give Agnea's arrow), but all of it is heavier (affecting his ability to double), the stronger stuff will have fewer uses and he has no siege magic. His faith list is also poor with Recover and Ward.

In terms of skill levels, he seems to be pushed towards going for Dark Knight as a Master class..... a relatively unexceptional class that does give him more might and canto, but that's about it honestly. The lack of increase in uses stings his use in longer battles. Warlock? Its problem is 4 move when he has no siege. A physical class? Wyvern Lord is used as justification for anyone being good, but I would argue that leaves Lorenz as at the lower end of a pool full of possible fliers. But another maybe is Bow Knight. The problem with this maybe is he has no combat arts beyond the basic ones, which means unless he has stellar regular combat he's wanting for combat options.

As a non-GD unit, he goes down Cavalier, which is a terrible path for him to follow considering he already has bad speed and this doesn't help his magic either. Desperation is also a skill that will not help him in the slightest if you actually bother to finish it. It makes it harder to recruit him later in Maddening, which would better for focusing on what units you start with you want to use/other recruits you want to get better class options for.

His lance work isn't all that stellar either, considering his unexceptional strength. Frozen Lance is good on him if he focuses on magic because he also has a good enough skill growth too.... but if he's on the front lines that he's putting himself at too much risk of being demolished by the first enemy that doubles because his defensive growths aren't being augmented by the classes he's using either as a mage or as a myrm like you've mentioned.

At least the other weapons (except fists) have accessible magic options by Part 2. Lances get Arrow of Indra, available after a paralogue in CF and the finale of VW (An action I still find dumb to this day).

His unique ability list is just sad as it only has Batallion Vantage, which does not synchronise for him at all because he has nothing to synchronise it with. Getting Wrath for that Wrath Vantage combo requires him to wield axes to A rank..... a prospect that seems rather limited to me given what we know. It would require building around it, for what seems to be a poor solution on him.

His growths are very middle of the road, seeming to end up kind of weak in comparison to others long term in most all areas as most of them are 40 base growths. This does not mean he's awful growth wise, merely that he's a unit who's very at the whim of growths. I've never seen him become amazing in any one area for him to focus on. If you want to get his speed going, you're having to focus him in weapons he's less familiar with, a similar problem to his difficulties with Warth-Vantage.

Another point to raise is that the way combat works, he needs 10 points of strength for every two points of speed a faster mage gets over him, which is worse when you factor any spell he uses that's heavier (like the higher might ones you want for more damage).

I mean, Thrysus does help some of these issues. His problem is Lysithea is a better user overall (combination of better spells, gender class access, major crest and better growths for massive magic. I will say the spell list is a fair comparison to make as neither has siege magic or 3 range.) and in the GD, meaning unless you're not deploying her at all or you recruit him and not her he's pretty much an also ran in terms of staves. And the other houses also have people to consider for that staff instead of him: Annette, Mercedes, Linhardt, Hanneman (even Flayn) all have power on their side and/or better magic spells to use it for; even Manuela, Dorothea and Hubert would be worth considering and they take damage from it! Back to GD (barring Lysithea) I would also argue Marianne's a better pick because she's got Thoron and spells with crit. But then again, not all of these are amazing picks either, just wanting to make it clear it and Cadesus are hot items in the interest of plenty of units.

TO BE FAIR, if we're not talking maddening, he is more than useable, I sure have. And at least he does improve as a person in Part 2 and I like him and Marianne together. That being said, I just don't find him that exceptional a unit that requires me to use him much beyond getting Thrysus.

TLDR I'd rather give Leonie the Leicester Alliance and Failnaught in AM.

TLDR Lorenz is unexceptional. That would truly wound him most as insults go.

3 minutes ago, deskita said:

Thrysus is a really good relic but anyone with a crest can use it without penalty and the pavise/aegis effect isn't exactly something to rely on.

Sometimes I wonder if it actually is reliable when Lysithea has it. ūüėõ

On my first playthrough I had no idea that it had Pavise/Aegis, so I was confused for a long while.

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the pavise aegis effect does help a lot and lorenz being naturally bulky for a mage does not necessarily rely on it anyways. Also, lorenz can become an extremely viable dancer, great knight, dark bishop, dark knight and could even stay as paladin.

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6 minutes ago, Dayni said:

I may have gone too far. Spoilers because of size.

  Hide contents

Lorenz does tend to be slow from personal experience. I've gotten to see him be at least halfway decent speed wise before, but it wouldn't cut the mustard in Maddening. So what has he got that could make him work with one big hit?

His magic list is very unexceptional, Reason giving him Sagittae and all the fire spells (which does give Agnea's arrow), but all of it is heavier (affecting his ability to double), the stronger stuff will have fewer uses and he has no siege magic. His faith list is also poor with Recover and Ward.

In terms of skill levels, he seems to be pushed towards going for Dark Knight as a Master class..... a relatively unexceptional class that does give him more might and canto, but that's about it honestly. The lack of increase in uses stings his use in longer battles. Warlock? Its problem is 4 move when he has no siege. A physical class? Wyvern Lord is used as justification for anyone being good, but I would argue that leaves Lorenz as at the lower end of a pool full of possible fliers. But another maybe is Bow Knight. The problem with this maybe is he has no combat arts beyond the basic ones, which means unless he has stellar regular combat he's wanting for combat options.

As a non-GD unit, he goes down Cavalier, which is a terrible path for him to follow considering he already has bad speed and this doesn't help his magic either. Desperation is also a skill that will not help him in the slightest if you actually bother to finish it. It makes it harder to recruit him later in Maddening, which would better for focusing on what units you start with you want to use/other recruits you want to get better class options for.

His lance work isn't all that stellar either, considering his unexceptional strength. Frozen Lance is good on him if he focuses on magic because he also has a good enough skill growth too.... but if he's on the front lines that he's putting himself at too much risk of being demolished by the first enemy that doubles because his defensive growths aren't being augmented by the classes he's using either as a mage or as a myrm like you've mentioned.

At least the other weapons (except fists) have accessible magic options by Part 2. Lances get Arrow of Indra, available after a paralogue in CF and the finale of VW (An action I still find dumb to this day).

His unique ability list is just sad as it only has Batallion Vantage, which does not synchronise for him at all because he has nothing to synchronise it with. Getting Wrath for that Wrath Vantage combo requires him to wield axes to A rank..... a prospect that seems rather limited to me given what we know. It would require building around it, for what seems to be a poor solution on him.

His growths are very middle of the road, seeming to end up kind of weak in comparison to others long term in most all areas as most of them are 40 base growths. This does not mean he's awful growth wise, merely that he's a unit who's very at the whim of growths. I've never seen him become amazing in any one area for him to focus on. If you want to get his speed going, you're having to focus him in weapons he's less familiar with, a similar problem to his difficulties with Warth-Vantage.

Another point to raise is that the way combat works, he needs 10 points of strength for every two points of speed a faster mage gets over him, which is worse when you factor any spell he uses that's heavier (like the higher might ones you want for more damage).

I mean, Thrysus does help some of these issues. His problem is Lysithea is a better user overall (combination of better spells, gender class access, major crest and better growths for massive magic. I will say the spell list is a fair comparison to make as neither has siege magic or 3 range.) and in the GD, meaning unless you're not deploying her at all or you recruit him and not her he's pretty much an also ran in terms of staves. And the other houses also have people to consider for that staff instead of him: Annette, Mercedes, Linhardt, Hanneman (even Flayn) all have power on their side and/or better magic spells to use it for; even Manuela, Dorothea and Hubert would be worth considering and they take damage from it! Back to GD (barring Lysithea) I would also argue Marianne's a better pick because she's got Thoron and spells with crit. But then again, not all of these are amazing picks either, just wanting to make it clear it and Cadesus are hot items in the interest of plenty of units.

TO BE FAIR, if we're not talking maddening, he is more than useable, I sure have. And at least he does improve as a person in Part 2 and I like him and Marianne together. That being said, I just don't find him that exceptional a unit that requires me to use him much beyond getting Thrysus.

TLDR I'd rather give Leonie the Leicester Alliance and Failnaught in AM.

TLDR Lorenz is unexceptional. That would truly wound him most as insults go.

Sometimes I wonder if it actually is reliable when Lysithea has it. ūüėõ

On my first playthrough I had no idea that it had Pavise/Aegis, so I was confused for a long while.

What gender class access does lyithea have apart from gremory?! It's literally just handicapped dark knight with better speed and charm. Its lorenz who has gender class access (dark mage, dark bishop). Also Lysithea has roughly the same amount of spells as lorenz, meaning that point is false. Lysithea has worse defence, resistance, luck and charm than lorenz. Lysithea may kill better than lorenz, but she suffers from severe losses over lorenz: worse survivability, awful hit and might with gambits, no access to a useful relic, no support abilities (apart from warp, which requires ridiculous amounts of faith training), less movement, gender locked from dark mage line, and less versatility in combat. Lorenz has a solid 50% strength growth in dark knight as well, meaning that even if he runs out of spells, he can still fight with high str.

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Just adding, his speed is average, his strength is above average, his magic is above average, and his faith list is above average. Recover is a useful heal spell paired with canto, and ward is op; don't downgrade ward, it'll be saving you left and right if you use it. The only point I give you Dayni is that you should never put him through cavalier and should only put him through paladin if you want him to be more bulky than fast (both ways work out).

Edited by FireEmblemFan3475

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Lorenz is great. He was far from the worst member of the team on my Silver Snow maddening run - which is his worst route if you're going full mage. Thyrsus helped him be as bulky as my physical frontliners, and that's important when your C faith spell is recover instead of physic. Having that heavy duty healing on the frontline really speeds up your advance, and Thyrsus' increased range allowed him to constantly provide linked attack support to the other frontliners so that they would perform better. You can also keep going on the faith training for Ward, giving him some experience gain on any turn he can't be doing something more important.

Ragnarok at B Reason is broken, straight up. Other mages would kill for that, and he was earning the one shot on pre-time skip maps despite his lower than average magic stat (due to being a recruited cavalier). If you are in a route where you must recruit him though, grab Frozen Lance if he doesn't have it already. That will push out about as much damage. He can't double on maddening, but then again, I dare you to show me any mage that doubles anything that's not an armor knight. And some mages (Hanneman, Lysithea) struggle to even secure those doubles consistently for a kill. The truth is that Lorenz's AS keeps up with the other mages because he has a strength stat. Any additional speed is just going to boost his avoid rate. 

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1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

Lorenz is great. He was far from the worst member of the team on my Silver Snow maddening run - which is his worst route if you're going full mage. Thyrsus helped him be as bulky as my physical frontliners, and that's important when your C faith spell is recover instead of physic. Having that heavy duty healing on the frontline really speeds up your advance, and Thyrsus' increased range allowed him to constantly provide linked attack support to the other frontliners so that they would perform better. You can also keep going on the faith training for Ward, giving him some experience gain on any turn he can't be doing something more important.

Ragnarok at B Reason is broken, straight up. Other mages would kill for that, and he was earning the one shot on pre-time skip maps despite his lower than average magic stat (due to being a recruited cavalier). If you are in a route where you must recruit him though, grab Frozen Lance if he doesn't have it already. That will push out about as much damage. He can't double on maddening, but then again, I dare you to show me any mage that doubles anything that's not an armor knight. And some mages (Hanneman, Lysithea) struggle to even secure those doubles consistently for a kill. The truth is that Lorenz's AS keeps up with the other mages because he has a strength stat. Any additional speed is just going to boost his avoid rate. 

His 50% strength and 55% magic in dark knight is amazing, and like you said, lysithea will struggle with doubling in maddening as well. Also I cant keep stressing this: lorenz is the ONLY BULKY MAGE WHO CAN BE A FRONTLINE AND SUPPORT UNIT

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Personally, I consider Lorenz to be decent enough to be perfectly usable, but still within the lower echelons of the game's characters. (I don't consider any of this game's characters to be outright bad. Even the worst ones are at least OK.) Looking at some of your points, though.

Thyrsus is a bit weird because its two effects are at odds with each other. +2 range is great for ensuring that your mage isn't on the front line and in harm's way but the pavisse/aegis effect only does anything if you are taking a hit. Lorenz is one of the few units who can benefit from both effects, but I''m not sure that's worth it compared to putting it on some other mage and using the extra range to help never be hit and not need pavisse/aegis.

I also don't think it's fair to say that he's the only bulky mage, although he is one of the better units in that particular niche. But if you're looking for a bulky mage, you could also use Manuela, Edelgard, or Sylvain, for instance. All of them have drawbacks, but all of them have advantages that Lorenz doesn't as well.

I don't particularly value Ward or Agnea's Arrow either. Ward isn't a very useful effect most of the time, and I only really use it in siuations where I have a turn and nothing else to do and may as well grab a bit of experience. Even in situations where stacking res would be useful, Pure Water and Rally Res both exist as options. Maybe I'm sleeping on it, but I've found it consistently underwhelming. Agnea's Arrow does great damage, of course, but its weight, accuracy, and uses are all downsides. For me, the highlights of his spell list are Ragnarok (only 1 might less than Agnea's Arrow and is otherwise strictly better and he gets it earlier) and Recover (which is mediocre on a lot of units, but works well on a front-liner with high mobility).

The big selling points of Gremory are +5 magic and double spell uses. Simply from a damage output perspective, +5 magic isn't as good as +2 magic and tomefaire but it isn't far behind. It also applies to healing (though not as well as the bishop's dedicated bonus), and to spell ranges, which can be important for the likes of warp and rescue. Double spell uses is particulary amazing for single use spells like warp and meteor, bu is good for anyhing which doesn't have many uses. Bolting, rescue, fortify, thoron, dark spikes, luna, etc. I'm sure Lorenz would love an extra three uses of Ragnarok. This is not to say that Gremory is the be all and end all of magic classes, but it's certainly a strong class.

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Lorenz's whole niche that he's a good mixed attacker and decently bulky.

He got good strength and magic growths, making him the best Dark Knight in the game.

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Yes, I created an account just to defend Lorenz Hellman Gloucester. While I agree with the OP that Lorenz is quite good, a lot of arguments are, actually, not explaining very well WHY Lorenz is definitely not a bad unit.

His growths don't really matter, he'll not excell in any particular stat, but he doesn't have any major weakness either outside a lowish defense (that can be patched up easily, but I'll talk about it later). He has only one Combat Art, Frozen Lance, but it's certainly one of the best of the game, and Lorenz has the stats to use it: good magic, dexterity and a Lance and Riding affinity to go to Paladin easily for Lancefaire. Combat Arts that scale with two stats can become quickly strong and scale really well into late game, and since it targets the enemy usual weakest stat (Resistance), Lorenz can fetch some one-hit kills as early as he can become a Paladin.

Before unlocking Paladin, he is an ok Mage that can take a hit and with a good spell list for someone who doesn't use Dark Magic. And he'll want to get Fiendish Blow anyway for Frozen Lance, so Monk -> Mage is a great early path for him. It's also not too much of a stretch to unlock Armored Knight and boost his Defense stat early.

Lorenz unique advantage compared to other Frozen Lance users (Hubert and Marianne) is his bulkiness. Lorenz has high HP growth, really good resistance and his defense can be patched through unlocking Armored Knight early on, but is definitely higher than all of his contenders. While the other two need cover, Lorenz can eat some hits. He can also kill mages with a Brave Lance since his Strength is not bad at all, while Hubert and Marianne can't. Since you'll mostly be using Frozen Lance, or a Brave Lance against mages, Speed is irrelevant on Lorenz, meaning you can stay a long time in the Paladin class (which will boost his HP, Defense, Resistance and Dexterity growths anyway) and not care about its drawback.

In terms of survivability, Lorenz high Dex means he can use Aegis/Pavise either through Tyrsus, or by unlocking the skills himself if you want to give his staff to someone else (one through Paladin which he'll get anyway, and the other by babysitting him a bit through Fortress Knight). He is also one of the rare contenders for Dark Bishop and the Lifetaker skill which will refill his health bar on player phase, so might as well give him the Dark Seals. Give him a Guard Adjutant on top and enemies will have a hard time killing him as long as he's not overwhelmed. With Lifetaker you don't have to spend time healing him each turn, so your healers can do something else on their turn (Warp/Rescue, Silence, or heal someone else).

The Gloucester Knights battalion is tailored made for him, with mixed defense and offense boost, and you'll unlock it alongside Thyrsus. Lorenz good Charm means that he'll be able to use its Gambit efficiently while having a better chance at avoiding enemy Gambits as well (which is pretty useful for a frontline unit). If he's not holding Thyrsus, a heavy shield like the Seiros Shield will patch even more his defense and improve his durability. The Spear of Assal is also amazing for him, allowing him to one shot any cavalry unit in late game with Frozen Lance (even the Death Knight in the lastest maps).

He'll be amazing as a Paladin and can stay as is, or you can go to Dark Knight, losing a bit of damage and movement in the process, but you'll be able to use some magic to increase his flexibility. Both are pretty good end classes for him.

 

I've used these builds successfully in Maddening: without Thyrsus on VW route (took some time to babysit him in side maps through Fortress Knight for Aegis), and with Thyrsus on CF route. I won't recommend to use him on other routes as you'll have to spend a few chapters without him at all post-timeskip, meaning he'll start to fall off behind. Lorenz is not broken by any mean, but he's way better than most people expect. He's a reliable and solid front line unit, capable of targeting the weakest defense stat of any opponent, and with high mobility.

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Is Lorenz a good unit? Sure, everyone in Three Houses for the most part is a good unit, but he really isn't the godsend that you're portraying him as.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Lysithea is an amazing unit who is literally a walking nuke, but dies when any enemy so much as breathes in her general direction. Even her res is pretty bad. Lorenz, on the other hand, depending on his class path, can have a def growth of 40% (lysithea has 10%), making him the only bulky mage. He is the only mage who can hold his own on the frontline, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Just comparing Lysithea and Lorenz to one another is kinda a pitfall. You gotta look at Lorenz compared to the rest of the cast. And he doesn't fair particularly well. You say he can hold the frontline, but he's never gonna make it there as a mage. 4 move is super slow, meanwhile you have fliers and even just other regular infantry classes with better move. By the time Lorenz gets there, your Wyverns will have easily taken out everyone there. He doesn't even have the major advantage of super good range from a siege spell or using a bow. He might be able to tank a bit on the frontline, if he somehow gets there, but he sure as hell won't last long.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

There are some pretty good high magic power users in this game who have a pretty bad spell list (Hanneman, Sylvain, to name a few), who can't properly utilize their magic completely (Hanneman is good with magic bow though). Lorenz, on the other hand, has fire,sagiatte, ragnarock and AGNEAS ARROW. Despite having less powerful magic than say marianne or lysithea, he makes up for it with ridiculously powerful spells.

You complain about Hanneman's spell list, but it's literally the same as Lorenz's, minus the Agneas Arrow and plus Thoron and Meteor. Agnea's arrow is a nice spell, a bit overrated imo but still nice, but it doesn't make up for his range issues, and all of those spells still hurt his speed, which will substantially hurt his frontline potential. In Maddening, his bulk won't be enough to survive, and he will get eaten alive by everything that moves.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Lorenz has access to recover (most units have this but its still useful and WARD. Lorenz is the only unit (which is viable) that has access to ward. This helps lorenz in the long run become even more useful at support roles. Lysithea only has access to heal, making her even less flexible.

As a healer, yes Lysithea is less flexible than Lorenz. This does not make Lorenz an amazing healer. Even compared to people in his own house he is still worse than Marianne, and I'd probably debate Ignatz since both of them have Physic. Yes, he is hypothetically on the front lines so physic isn't a necessity. But until he gets his mount, he will be scrambling to try and make it to the front lines, so having physic in order to help with that is a necessity for any support unit. As for Ward, yes it's nice but Lorenz is hardly the only viable unit with it. Both Manuela and Hanneman learn it, and Manuela is a far better support unit than Lorenz. Constance learns it, and she basically serves as a flying magical nuke on top of great support skills. This is why you shouldn't just compare Lorenz and Lysithea, since when compared against others both are kinda meh in the support department. Lysithea gets warp, and that's why she still does place higher, this on top of her generally good magic meaning that she can generally make heal work.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Unlike every other mage, lorenz actually has decent str and decent combat arts (lysithea does have soulblade), allowing him to remain on the frontlines slightly longer, whilst once again increasing his versatility. If lorenz runs out of usages on his spells, his decent speed allows for doubling occasionally (consistently in my case), meaning having a silver lance or brave lance is also viable.

Decent strength does nothing if his speed is average at best. It might be enough on hard, but on Maddening it does nothing for him. He might be able to wield one or two of his spells without a weight penalty, but as I said, this doesn't really matter much. Sure he can decently utilize other weapons if he has to, but at that point he's more of a Jack of all trades, master of none.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Thrysus, an accessory relic, gives +2 magic range (4 range ragnarock!), which is busted, but if a unit has a crest of gloucester, they get pavise/aegis a lot of the time. Lorenz and lysithea have access to this effect.

Thrysus itself is very busted, but since anyone with a crest can use it and get the range benefit, I'd hardly call that in favor of Lorenz. The Pavise/Aegis is something that really only he can utilize, I will agree to that, however that isn't very reliable, and it's absolutely something you shouldn't rely on. 

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Gremory is literally just handicapped dark knight but also is exclusive to female units. Its extremely overrated; its only advantage is slightly higher charm and dexterity growth. Dark knight has higher mobility, versatility, strength and equal magical capabilities. If anything, lysithea is misssing out on access to poison strike and lifetaker (both help lorenz become more bulky).

It's not just Gremory though, now it's also Dark Flier and Valkyrie, on top of Gremory. Yes Gremory itself is a tad overrated, however the additional spell slots are extremely useful, which is something Lorenz will likely struggle with if frontlining so much. Dark Knight itself is a very mediocre class. Its best point is the mobility of it, which is very nice, but Gremory as a whole has more versatility due to the increase of magic slots. Two warps is two warps man. This is on top of other female magic users having access to Valkyrie, which is just a better version of Dark Knight, and Dark Flier, which while gimmicky, is still a flying mage of destruction. So while Gremory is overrated, this does not mean that Dark Knight is particularly good. And on the topic of Dark Mage, yes their skills are pretty good, but as a class they don't fix many of Lorenz's shortcomings.

2 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Overall, I think lorenz is completely written off by lorenz' at first having a bad personality and also the worst hair to ever be designed. I've noticed that people constantly will tell that characters they don't like are also bad (this happens to hanneman as well). Lorenz is easily one of the best units in the game without having to put much work in. 

Don't get me wrong man, I love Lorenz. Dude has one of the best redemption arcs. However he is far from one of the best units in this game. B tier at best. We still have the lord who are amazing, other units like Hilda who can become flying invincible tanks, and just more specialized units who can better fit into their roles. Lorenz needs a specific seal to get into Dark Mage where he can get the skills needed to shine in the role you want him to be in, and also needs a lot more babying to become a good unit, something that the best units in 3H don't need.

I will now address a few of your other claims

1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Make him myrimidon at the beginning for 45% speed growth and +2 speed, both of which help with doubling

Ok, so you make him a myrmidon. What does that do for his later class paths? You want him to become a mage or a cavalier. Myrmidon helps with neither of these. Yes it does fix his speed ailments somewhat, but then it screws so hard with his earlygame that it's gonna be significantly harder to get him back on track.

1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

the pavise aegis effect does help a lot and lorenz being naturally bulky for a mage does not necessarily rely on it anyways. Also, lorenz can become an extremely viable dancer, great knight, dark bishop, dark knight and could even stay as paladin.

I personally think you're overestimating the usefulness of Pavise/Aegis. Yes it is nice, but it isn't guaranteed. As for the other viable classes.

Nearly anyone can be a viable dancer, it's dancer, the class as a whole is great.

Great Knight is a horrendous class, however that would mean making an armored Lorenz who would at least fulfill that tanking roll you give him.

Dark Bishop is a decent enough class, but really if you're sticking him there it's just a worse Gremory, or even just worse regular Bishop.

Paladin is a fine enough class, but if you're making a physical Lorenz, just make him a Bow Knight. Bows are just that good in 3H, and since you're focusing on physical you might as well dip into bows to fulfill it. 

1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

What gender class access does lyithea have apart from gremory?! It's literally just handicapped dark knight with better speed and charm. Its lorenz who has gender class access (dark mage, dark bishop). Also Lysithea has roughly the same amount of spells as lorenz, meaning that point is false. Lysithea has worse defence, resistance, luck and charm than lorenz. Lysithea may kill better than lorenz, but she suffers from severe losses over lorenz: worse survivability, awful hit and might with gambits, no access to a useful relic, no support abilities (apart from warp, which requires ridiculous amounts of faith training), less movement, gender locked from dark mage line, and less versatility in combat. Lorenz has a solid 50% strength growth in dark knight as well, meaning that even if he runs out of spells, he can still fight with high str.

I've already stated about the new DLC classes Lysithea has avaliable to her, so I won't harp on that point. Lysithea has two more spells than Lorenz, one reason and one faith. Both are more attack spells, but that gives her more versatility in the kind of spells she can use. Also, Lysithea getting to A rank for warp is actually pretty easy, due to her personal skill. Gambit hit can be fixed with supports for the most part, and the rest is largely irrelevant.

1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Just adding, his speed is average, his strength is above average, his magic is above average, and his faith list is above average. Recover is a useful heal spell paired with canto, and ward is op; don't downgrade ward, it'll be saving you left and right if you use it. The only point I give you Dayni is that you should never put him through cavalier and should only put him through paladin if you want him to be more bulky than fast (both ways work out).

His speed is below average, 40% can be considered middle of the road at best, and many of his classes won't help emphasize it to make it grow. His str and mag are above average, but only barely. They aren't gonna be amazing, glass shattering stats, but they will be decent. This is why Lorenz is a good unit, but not a great one unless you push him down a specific niche. And Ward is not op. I'm sorry but it's just not. It's a very nice utility spell, it can get you out of a sticky situation or two, it is not OP. It isn't Physic that can give you cross-map healing in a pinch, it isn't Warp that can allow you to just easily skip maps. It's just a really nice spell.

1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

His 50% strength and 55% magic in dark knight is amazing, and like you said, lysithea will struggle with doubling in maddening as well. Also I cant keep stressing this: lorenz is the ONLY BULKY MAGE WHO CAN BE A FRONTLINE AND SUPPORT UNIT

Those are both decent growths. Other frontline units will easily surpass one of those growths. As stated, Lorenz is a Jack of all trades, Master of none, and while yes he can become a "bulky" mage on the frontlines who can also be support, those are two contrasting roles. More focused units will do that job significantly better, like Hilda who is just focused on frontlining, or Marianne who is just focused on supporting. Splitting him up between the two roles just results in him being overall worse at both jobs.

Now I will mostly agree with Myssdii's arguments, since they display Lorenz more accurately imo. I will sustain that Lorenz is a decent unit, who can generally fill a decent frontline defense unit, and a decent support unit, but never a great anything.

 

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3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point one: Ever heard of lysithea's def?

Lysithea is an amazing unit who is literally a walking nuke, but dies when any enemy so much as breathes in her general direction. Even her res is pretty bad. Lorenz, on the other hand, depending on his class path, can have a def growth of 40% (lysithea has 10%), making him the only bulky mage. He is the only mage who can hold his own on the frontline, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Counterpoint: What do you expect from someone who doesn't have very long to live? Second, mages having crappy defense is to be expected.

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point two: What the hell is a wide spell list?

There are some pretty good high magic power users in this game who have a pretty bad spell list (Hanneman, Sylvain, to name a few), who can't properly utilize their magic completely (Hanneman is good with magic bow though). Lorenz, on the other hand, has fire,sagiatte, ragnarock and AGNEAS ARROW. Despite having less powerful magic than say marianne or lysithea, he makes up for it with ridiculously powerful spells.

That he only gets 2-3 uses of unless he stays in Warlock.

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point three: y u no heal lysithea ūüėě ?

Lorenz has access to recover (most units have this but its still useful and WARD. Lorenz is the only unit (which is viable) that has access to ward. This helps lorenz in the long run become even more useful at support roles. Lysithea only has access to heal, making her even less flexible.

Counterpoint: Ward can be replicated with Pure Water.

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point four: What is this madness? a mage with high strength?

Unlike every other mage, lorenz actually has decent str and decent combat arts (lysithea does have soulblade), allowing him to remain on the frontlines slightly longer, whilst once again increasing his versatility. If lorenz runs out of usages on his spells, his decent speed allows for doubling occasionally (consistently in my case), meaning having a silver lance or brave lance is also viable.

Unfortunately, he needs 5 points of strength for every point of speed a faster mage gets over him.

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point five: tough luck, Lorenz also has the best heroes relic.

Thrysus, an accessory relic, gives +2 magic range (4 range ragnarock!), which is busted, but if a unit has a crest of gloucester, they get pavise/aegis a lot of the time. Lorenz and lysithea have access to this effect.

Which can be used by any other mage, other than them getting the Pavise and Aegis effects, which I wouldn't consider something to rely on.

3 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

point six: What is so special about gremory?

Gremory is literally just handicapped dark knight but also is exclusive to female units. Its extremely overrated; its only advantage is slightly higher charm and dexterity growth. Dark knight has higher mobility, versatility, strength and equal magical capabilities. If anything, lysithea is misssing out on access to poison strike and lifetaker (both help lorenz become more bulky).

I could turn this back at you, except replacing "Gremory" with "Dark Knight". Why in the seven hells would I want to go for Dark Knight considering the extra investment is hardly compensated? In addition, it's not just Gremory that puts Dark Knight to shame now, as the female-exclusive DLC magic classes are also good. Also, Poison Strike isn't that good outside of NG+, and Lifetaker sucks really hard now, as it only heals for half of the target's HP at the time they were defeated. Which, in case you're keeping score, won't be very much most of the time.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I agree completely with @lenticular's sentiment that even the worst units in battle are OK, and that everyone is usable with enough effort.  If you're already inclined to use Lorenz (because you like him, or because you want to try a build with him or whatever) then fair enough. I'm happy to admit that I've never put enough effort into Lorenz to see him be a frontliner of the kind that his supporters have described in this thread, even though I raised him for most of my VW run. I'd also happily agree that since GD forces his use for all of Part I, his bulky mage schtick is quite helpful for the Deers' early game and Ch. 13 (especially given his starting location in that map).

But a lot of people on this thread have already made good and cogent arguments for why Lorenz won't rise above OK, and I don't think he's saved from them even in his own route (and this goes doubly so in NG+ with its greater freedom in recruitment and builds). For me in particular, it's because he does nothing particularly well in a game that begs you to specialise, and his relatively unimpressive damage output isn't suited to my Player-Phase oriented play style.

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Lorenz is best in GD Maddening because he's ever present, Lysithea takes awhile to get going, and his utility doesn't really fall off even when the niche he fills (mage who doesn't explode upon impact) becomes less noteworthy because of his riding boon/being mounted (unless he isn't -- but even then that movement +1 is gud) and pretty decent spell list. In every other mode, people will likely overlook him because the jobs he does can be easily filled in by another unit who can do it better without much additional investment (this investment is more costly in Maddening).

I still wouldn't put him in top tier in any mode, but he's definitely undersold lol

Edited by Crysta

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11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: What do you expect from someone who doesn't have very long to live? Second, mages having crappy defense is to be expected.

That he only gets 2-3 uses of unless he stays in Warlock.

Counterpoint: Ward can be replicated with Pure Water.

Unfortunately, he needs 5 points of strength for every point of speed a faster mage gets over him.

Which can be used by any other mage, other than them getting the Pavise and Aegis effects, which I wouldn't consider something to rely on.

I could turn this back at you, except replacing "Gremory" with "Dark Knight". Why in the seven hells would I want to go for Dark Knight considering the extra investment is hardly compensated? In addition, it's not just Gremory that puts Dark Knight to shame now, as the female-exclusive DLC magic classes are also good. Also, Poison Strike isn't that good outside of NG+, and Lifetaker sucks really hard now, as it only heals for half of the target's HP at the time they were defeated. Which, in case you're keeping score, won't be very much most of the time.

Counterpoint1: Lysithea is only good when she gets the one-shot, otherwise she will get counter-attacked and die (10% def 25% res). Lorenz bulky, with 40% defence on dark knight (I think its 40?). He can be put on the frontlines as well as attacking from a distance, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Counterpoint2: 3 uses of ragnarock, 5 uses of agneas arrow, 10 uses of sagiatte, 25 uses of fire and is also able to use weapons as well (45% str in dark knight, 55%magic). Do any of your other mages use weapons? I though not. Lysithea can have a sword for soulblade but thats unreliable at best.

Counterpoint3: why would you waster money on pure water when lorenz can already use ward?!

Counterpoint4: Lorenz has a high enough strength growth (and access to frozen lance) to one hit mages and physical units alike. Speed doesn't matter when you get one hit.

Counterpoint5: Lorenz is the only unit in the game which can utilize both effects: the range helps a ton and Lorenz can also use pavise and aegis far better than lysithea (who happens to die when coughed at)

Counterpoint6: you havent explained ANY points which support 'gremory putting dark knight to shame', so I shall list points which put gremory to shame:

Less movement: Lysithea or any other gremory will always slug behind all your other units, making them harder to use if they dont have bolting, physic, fortify or any other long range spell (lysithea has none)

Has to rely on magic: gremory gives a +10% to magic growth; so does dark knight! Nothing special here. If you run in to high res enemies (like the unmoveable or any boss mage), then gremory becomes entirely support (physic, fortify, heal). Lysithea has no way of being support, making her useless and requiring protection. Dark knight gives +5% strength, which gives lorenz 45% strength growth, which is considered above average.

Help my defence!: Lysithea, as previously mentioned, has awful defence. Every other mage does as well. Gremory only has +10% resistance as a means of defence (lysithea will have a shaky 35%). Dark knight gives +5% defence and +10% resistance, making it far more tanky and helping lorenz in the long run

 

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12 hours ago, DarthR0xas said:

Is Lorenz a good unit? Sure, everyone in Three Houses for the most part is a good unit, but he really isn't the godsend that you're portraying him as.

Just comparing Lysithea and Lorenz to one another is kinda a pitfall. You gotta look at Lorenz compared to the rest of the cast. And he doesn't fair particularly well. You say he can hold the frontline, but he's never gonna make it there as a mage. 4 move is super slow, meanwhile you have fliers and even just other regular infantry classes with better move. By the time Lorenz gets there, your Wyverns will have easily taken out everyone there. He doesn't even have the major advantage of super good range from a siege spell or using a bow. He might be able to tank a bit on the frontline, if he somehow gets there, but he sure as hell won't last long.

You complain about Hanneman's spell list, but it's literally the same as Lorenz's, minus the Agneas Arrow and plus Thoron and Meteor. Agnea's arrow is a nice spell, a bit overrated imo but still nice, but it doesn't make up for his range issues, and all of those spells still hurt his speed, which will substantially hurt his frontline potential. In Maddening, his bulk won't be enough to survive, and he will get eaten alive by everything that moves.

As a healer, yes Lysithea is less flexible than Lorenz. This does not make Lorenz an amazing healer. Even compared to people in his own house he is still worse than Marianne, and I'd probably debate Ignatz since both of them have Physic. Yes, he is hypothetically on the front lines so physic isn't a necessity. But until he gets his mount, he will be scrambling to try and make it to the front lines, so having physic in order to help with that is a necessity for any support unit. As for Ward, yes it's nice but Lorenz is hardly the only viable unit with it. Both Manuela and Hanneman learn it, and Manuela is a far better support unit than Lorenz. Constance learns it, and she basically serves as a flying magical nuke on top of great support skills. This is why you shouldn't just compare Lorenz and Lysithea, since when compared against others both are kinda meh in the support department. Lysithea gets warp, and that's why she still does place higher, this on top of her generally good magic meaning that she can generally make heal work.

Decent strength does nothing if his speed is average at best. It might be enough on hard, but on Maddening it does nothing for him. He might be able to wield one or two of his spells without a weight penalty, but as I said, this doesn't really matter much. Sure he can decently utilize other weapons if he has to, but at that point he's more of a Jack of all trades, master of none.

Thrysus itself is very busted, but since anyone with a crest can use it and get the range benefit, I'd hardly call that in favor of Lorenz. The Pavise/Aegis is something that really only he can utilize, I will agree to that, however that isn't very reliable, and it's absolutely something you shouldn't rely on. 

It's not just Gremory though, now it's also Dark Flier and Valkyrie, on top of Gremory. Yes Gremory itself is a tad overrated, however the additional spell slots are extremely useful, which is something Lorenz will likely struggle with if frontlining so much. Dark Knight itself is a very mediocre class. Its best point is the mobility of it, which is very nice, but Gremory as a whole has more versatility due to the increase of magic slots. Two warps is two warps man. This is on top of other female magic users having access to Valkyrie, which is just a better version of Dark Knight, and Dark Flier, which while gimmicky, is still a flying mage of destruction. So while Gremory is overrated, this does not mean that Dark Knight is particularly good. And on the topic of Dark Mage, yes their skills are pretty good, but as a class they don't fix many of Lorenz's shortcomings.

Don't get me wrong man, I love Lorenz. Dude has one of the best redemption arcs. However he is far from one of the best units in this game. B tier at best. We still have the lord who are amazing, other units like Hilda who can become flying invincible tanks, and just more specialized units who can better fit into their roles. Lorenz needs a specific seal to get into Dark Mage where he can get the skills needed to shine in the role you want him to be in, and also needs a lot more babying to become a good unit, something that the best units in 3H don't need.

I will now address a few of your other claims

Ok, so you make him a myrmidon. What does that do for his later class paths? You want him to become a mage or a cavalier. Myrmidon helps with neither of these. Yes it does fix his speed ailments somewhat, but then it screws so hard with his earlygame that it's gonna be significantly harder to get him back on track.

I personally think you're overestimating the usefulness of Pavise/Aegis. Yes it is nice, but it isn't guaranteed. As for the other viable classes.

Nearly anyone can be a viable dancer, it's dancer, the class as a whole is great.

Great Knight is a horrendous class, however that would mean making an armored Lorenz who would at least fulfill that tanking roll you give him.

Dark Bishop is a decent enough class, but really if you're sticking him there it's just a worse Gremory, or even just worse regular Bishop.

Paladin is a fine enough class, but if you're making a physical Lorenz, just make him a Bow Knight. Bows are just that good in 3H, and since you're focusing on physical you might as well dip into bows to fulfill it. 

I've already stated about the new DLC classes Lysithea has avaliable to her, so I won't harp on that point. Lysithea has two more spells than Lorenz, one reason and one faith. Both are more attack spells, but that gives her more versatility in the kind of spells she can use. Also, Lysithea getting to A rank for warp is actually pretty easy, due to her personal skill. Gambit hit can be fixed with supports for the most part, and the rest is largely irrelevant.

 

 

How does myrimidon screw his early game? It doesn't. all it does is take 5% from lorenz's already decent res. It does nothing to screw him over. It helps him not get doubled. You can just keep his goal as reason and lance, or riding or whatever build you want him to have.

That doesn't change the fact that lorenz would be a good dancer. It would also help his speed a TON if you don't want to keep him in it.

Depending on his build, Lorenz can be a godlike great knight.

Dark bishop suffers from the same problems as gremory

Paladin is an amazing class to remain in

Bow knight is pretty good as well

And of course dark knight and holy knight are good as well.

I agree that lorenz is a jack of all traits and a master of none, but this is why he has a ton of viable class paths: because you specialize him in this class. Lysithea can only go through mage and gremory is her only good master class. Lorenz requires you to customize and master him in a certain way, making him FAR more versatile than any other unit. This is why I think lorenz is easily one of the best units in the game: Specialize him in a certain class and he'll become the best at it. Hilda is only good as fontline and marianne is only good as support. Lorenz is good in nearly everything

 

 

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9 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint1: Lysithea is only good when she gets the one-shot, otherwise she will get counter-attacked and die (10% def 25% res). Lorenz bulky, with 40% defence on dark knight (I think its 40?). He can be put on the frontlines as well as attacking from a distance, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Counterpoint2: 3 uses of ragnarock, 5 uses of agneas arrow, 10 uses of sagiatte, 25 uses of fire and is also able to use weapons as well (45% str in dark knight, 55%magic). Do any of your other mages use weapons? I though not. Lysithea can have a sword for soulblade but thats unreliable at best.

Counterpoint3: why would you waster money on pure water when lorenz can already use ward?!

Counterpoint4: Lorenz has a high enough strength growth (and access to frozen lance) to one hit mages and physical units alike. Speed doesn't matter when you get one hit.

Counterpoint5: Lorenz is the only unit in the game which can utilize both effects: the range helps a ton and Lorenz can also use pavise and aegis far better than lysithea (who happens to die when coughed at)

Counterpoint6: you havent explained ANY points which support 'gremory putting dark knight to shame', so I shall list points which put gremory to shame:

Less movement: Lysithea or any other gremory will always slug behind all your other units, making them harder to use if they dont have bolting, physic, fortify or any other long range spell (lysithea has none)

Has to rely on magic: gremory gives a +10% to magic growth; so does dark knight! Nothing special here. If you run in to high res enemies (like the unmoveable or any boss mage), then gremory becomes entirely support (physic, fortify, heal). Lysithea has no way of being support, making her useless and requiring protection. Dark knight gives +5% strength, which gives lorenz 45% strength growth, which is considered above average.

Help my defence!: Lysithea, as previously mentioned, has awful defence. Every other mage does as well. Gremory only has +10% resistance as a means of defence (lysithea will have a shaky 35%). Dark knight gives +5% defence and +10% resistance, making it far more tanky and helping lorenz in the long run

 

You're not using the right arguments.

Lorenz should not be compared to Lysithea, they aren't the same and fill different roles. As a pure mage, Lysithea is just better, there is no contest here. If you grow both of them through pure magic classes and nothing else, Lysithea will bury Lorenz any time just because of higher magic growth and a way better spell list, either in Reason or Faith: Physic and Warp are better than Restore and Ward. She's also a great user of Thyrsus just by being a mage that likes having extra range to avoid counterattack and patch her low movement. Lorenz will have a harder time than Lysithea in maddening to one-shot things through spells alone.

It's the same process with any other unit if you try to make Lorenz a speedy unit. Yes, you can go through the Myrmidon line and make him decently speedy. But units like Leonie, Hilda or even Ignatz will do better than him in this path because of their higher bases, growths and better proficiencies. Lorenz gains absolutely nothing for going through swords: he doesn't have any sword combat art, Myrmidon mastery does nothing to him (+2 speed when Lorenz proficiency is cavalry which gives -2 speed...), he loses his spell access early on and doesn't get help in leveling lances or magic faster.

Your other pitfall is using Dark Knight growth rates to talk about Lorenz bulk. The thing is, by the time you unlock Dark Knight, you are level 30 and will probably end up in early 40s at best on the final map (unless you are in normal mode and can grind forever, but in this case there is no point in trying to compare units). So you'll use these growths only for ~10 levels, compared to the 29 levels of growth you just went through (assuming you're in GD and used Lorenz starting level 1). The reason Lorenz is bulkier than any other mage, is because he can easily go through Paladin, not use any of his spells and still deal big magic damage through Frozen Lance. Dark Knight Lorenz will even deal less damage than Paladin Lorenz overall since Frozen Lance will do more damage in the endgame than most of his spells.

Assuming you went through the same classes before 30 and grew 10 levels, between Dark Knight Lorenz and Paladin Lorenz, Dark Knight Lorenz will have an average of 3 more magic (+2 from the Dark Knight stat boost, and +1 from the average growth boost of 10% over 10 levels), 1.5 more res, 3 less HP, 0.5 less dexterity, 2 less strength, the same luck and 0.5 more speed (by looking at the growth difference and the class stats boosts like I did for magic stat). Dark Knight growth will not make him busted, it doesn't even matter much compared to keeping him as a Paladin. Dark Knight will only increase his flexibility and utility, but not boost his stats, bulk and damage as you seem to imply.

 

I'm mostly using maddening mode to talk about Lorenz, mainly because it's where character differences matter the most, and where the strategy of just rolling over maps one-shotting everything won't apply most of the time. It's the same thing that happened with Ignatz: before maddening mode, most people where benching him because units like Claude or Leonie were doing a better job at killing things with bows ; but when maddening mode came out, units started to bring more to the table than just speed, mobility and damage, like Ignatz rallies and huge crit rate on Hunter's Volley.

It's a similar process with Lorenz: he's not broken and can't solo maps like other "top tier" units, but he brings mixed bulk, and a unique mixed offense that is reliable in the whole run, making him valuable in the GD house where units are highly specialized. He's not "good at anything", he's good at being polyvalent, as long as you stay in the path that is meant for him: mixed offense cavalry.

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Lorenz was a DK in my GD play through (on normal so I have no experience with maddening just yet) and I thought he was fine. But I do also think that giving him something like movement +1 and black magic range +1 as a dark knight could help him out with his range. Plus he gets recover. A lot of people seem to sleep on that. However I still think that Lysithea is a better damage dealer than Lorenz but she has way less bulk. So I think it really comes down to how well you position them really.

Poison Strike I can only see being good against bosses with high HP or even monsters since poison strike does carry over to their next health bar. Lifetaker I wouldn't really use either unless you know for sure you're going to one shot someone. So getting the dark seals for the most part on the higher difficulties it seems, doesn't feel like it's worth going after the Death Knight for. Hubert can take full advantage of it yes but why keep him as a Dark Bishop with 4 move when you can make him a Dark Knight instead?

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I compare lorenz with lysithea because whenever I mention lorenz on other forums, they always say that lorenz is irrelevant because lysithea exists. When I use lysithea in my comparisons, its to prove that lorenz can hold his own against these units which are completely inflexible. If you read another post in this topic I've made, the reason I think lorenz is good because of the amount of different class paths he can take and be rlly good

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