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FireEmblemFan3475

Lorenz is a good unit: change my mind

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1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I compare lorenz with lysithea because whenever I mention lorenz on other forums, they always say that lorenz is irrelevant because lysithea exists. When I use lysithea in my comparisons, its to prove that lorenz can hold his own against these units which are completely inflexible. If you read another post in this topic I've made, the reason I think lorenz is good because of the amount of different class paths he can take and be rlly good

I have no doubt that he's perfectly usable on hard or maddening. While I don't have any experience with the higher difficulties as of yet (I do plan on tackling it eventually), from my experience using him, he was useful at securing KOs with Frozen Lance and a Silver Lance +. His above average across the board stat growths outside of luck and defense does open up a number of things he could do. I usually prefer to buff his magic growth by classing him as a monk then mage for fiendish blow before going into paladin because 40% speed is not spectacular to begin with. He's not as slow as say Raphael for example but faster units like Lysithea whose speed growth is 50% and Leonie's 60% is quite a bit for him to go up against when it comes to doubling enemies. For Lorenz, I find him to be useful for chip and dip damage as a Dark Knight with Fiendish Blow and Poison Strike against bosses and monsters in general. Plus him having access to Recover while it tends to be slept on can be clutch if you're looking for a super heal. He can heal and then get away provided that you utilize his high movement correctly

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9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

How does myrimidon screw his early game? It doesn't. all it does is take 5% from lorenz's already decent res. It does nothing to screw him over. It helps him not get doubled. You can just keep his goal as reason and lance, or riding or whatever build you want him to have.

Because then he isn't using magic, which means it's going to take even longer for him to get into an advance class. Of course if you're going for a riding Lorenz, I will grant that this isn't really going to screw too much with Lorenz, but it will hard gimp a mage Lorenz's earlygame, and will bleed heavily into the midgame. It's just largely ineffective for the goals that Lorenz aims to achieve.

9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

That doesn't change the fact that lorenz would be a good dancer. It would also help his speed a TON if you don't want to keep him in it.

Depending on his build, Lorenz can be a godlike great knight.

Dark bishop suffers from the same problems as gremory

Paladin is an amazing class to remain in

Bow knight is pretty good as well

And of course dark knight and holy knight are good as well.

Of course Lorenz is still a great dancer, but again it generally doesn't help much with the general paths you push him down, due to the focus on faith and swords, instead of lances and reason.

Sure Lorenz can be a good Great Knight, but that doesn't mean Great Knight is a good class for him, and sending him down the classline to get Great Knight will largely screw with his Frozen Lance utility, at least in my experience.

Dude you're the one who brought up Dark Bishop, I was the one telling you that it suffers from the exact same problems as Gremory in your eyes.

Paladin and Bow Knight speak for themselves.

And only Dark Knight is good. Holy Knight is significantly worse for a variety of reasons that people have written up elsewhere.

9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I agree that lorenz is a jack of all traits and a master of none, but this is why he has a ton of viable class paths: because you specialize him in this class. Lysithea can only go through mage and gremory is her only good master class. Lorenz requires you to customize and master him in a certain way, making him FAR more versatile than any other unit. This is why I think lorenz is easily one of the best units in the game: Specialize him in a certain class and he'll become the best at it. Hilda is only good as fontline and marianne is only good as support. Lorenz is good in nearly everything

This is incorrect thinking, mainly because you're not giving the units who are more focused enough credit. Sure, Hilda doesn't make a very good mage, but she is an amazing frontline. Meanwhile Lorenz is only a good frontline. Sure, Marianne wouldn't really make the best armored unit, but she's an amazing support. Lorenz is only a good support. That's only a few examples of class specialization versus class generalization. Yes, he is good in everything, but he's great in very little, and amazing in nothing. The way that 3H was designed makes it so that units with more focus in their paths are for the most part better than units who can do almost anything. That or if you have a busted personal weapon. The point is that sure, Lorenz can fill many roles, but the roles that he will fill, unless he heads down his specific niche, will always be worse than others.

8 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I compare lorenz with lysithea because whenever I mention lorenz on other forums, they always say that lorenz is irrelevant because lysithea exists. When I use lysithea in my comparisons, its to prove that lorenz can hold his own against these units which are completely inflexible. If you read another post in this topic I've made, the reason I think lorenz is good because of the amount of different class paths he can take and be rlly good

Other people making pitfalls of unit comparison doesn't mean that you should make those same pitfalls.

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9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint1: Lysithea is only good when she gets the one-shot, otherwise she will get counter-attacked and die (10% def 25% res). Lorenz bulky, with 40% defence on dark knight (I think its 40?). He can be put on the frontlines as well as attacking from a distance, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

Why would she be getting countered? In most cases, about the only thing that she should be worried about being countered by are other mages. 

9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint2: 3 uses of ragnarock, 5 uses of agneas arrow, 10 uses of sagiatte, 25 uses of fire and is also able to use weapons as well (45% str in dark knight, 55%magic). Do any of your other mages use weapons? I though not. Lysithea can have a sword for soulblade but thats unreliable at best.

You got the uses for Agnea's Arrow and Fire wrong - the former only has two uses, and Fire has 10 uses. Also, I generally don't see the need for mages to be able to use weapons as well - that's what everyone else is for.

9 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint3: why would you waster money on pure water when lorenz can already use ward?!

Maybe because he doesn't have it? Because he doesn't learn Ward until B.

10 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint4: Lorenz has a high enough strength growth (and access to frozen lance) to one hit mages and physical units alike. Speed doesn't matter when you get one hit.

On what, a nonexistent easy mode? Also, speed does matter. A lot. There's a reason why people have long touted it as the one stat to rule them all as far as Fire Emblem is concerned.

10 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint5: Lorenz is the only unit in the game which can utilize both effects: the range helps a ton and Lorenz can also use pavise and aegis far better than lysithea (who happens to die when coughed at)

That's true, but in general, the effects are contradictory - the extra range helps avoid needing to be near the frontlines, whereas Pavise and Aegis are only relevant if you're being attacked in the first place.

10 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Counterpoint6: you havent explained ANY points which support 'gremory putting dark knight to shame', so I shall list points which put gremory to shame:

Less movement: Lysithea or any other gremory will always slug behind all your other units, making them harder to use if they dont have bolting, physic, fortify or any other long range spell (lysithea has none)

Has to rely on magic: gremory gives a +10% to magic growth; so does dark knight! Nothing special here. If you run in to high res enemies (like the unmoveable or any boss mage), then gremory becomes entirely support (physic, fortify, heal). Lysithea has no way of being support, making her useless and requiring protection. Dark knight gives +5% strength, which gives lorenz 45% strength growth, which is considered above average.

Help my defence!: Lysithea, as previously mentioned, has awful defence. Every other mage does as well. Gremory only has +10% resistance as a means of defence (lysithea will have a shaky 35%). Dark knight gives +5% defence and +10% resistance, making it far more tanky and helping lorenz in the long run

It gets double spell uses for all magic types. It also has a +1 speed modifier and +5 magic, as opposed to Dark Knight's -2 speed. Also, it's easier to qualify for than Dark Knight, as I only need Reason and Faith ranks as opposed to needing to raise Riding and Lance rank as well. Also, you're putting too much emphasis on growths, as Dark Knight's extra 5% defense growth needs 20 levels to kick in on average - aka, not happening because the game's already over by then.

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Can we dispel the notion that any unit in a mage class is capable of surviving several rounds of combat? Only considering Growths is such a narrow minded view of the game that it doesn't really tell anything at all in practice. Like lets look a Lorenz's durability in a map that actually tests it, Hunting by Daybreak.

The recommended level for that map is Level 27, so here's what Lorenz's Averages look like for that level. Now take that average 48 HP, 18 Prt, and 18 Speed and compare it to the enemies he'll be facing in that chapter. As you can see, he gets doubled by everything in the map without even wielding a weapon, gets one rounded by all the promoted enemies while also loses more than half his HP from the unpromoted ones. Having a Dex % chance of halving damage doesn't matter if the unit in question cant survive multiple rounds of combat. If you have him as a Paladin instead he would be capable of taking some hits thanks to it's class mods, but that leaves him solely reliant on Frozen Lance. And keep in mind enemies only grow to be substantially more threatening as more and more of them promote.  

And can I also refute that Lorenz is the only magically inclined unit that can take hits? By letting any mage take the Armor certifications it can let a unit like Marianne, who even with an Armor bane only takes 4 weeks to gain the ranks to certify, can achieve similar levels of durability as Lorenz

Speaking of Marianne, what is Lorenz doing that makes his contributions worth more than the +4 base magic she comes with on top of learning Frozen Lance faster as budding talent rather than at C+ Lances? You can also see the rather substantial difference Magic in the paladin example I've posted above. And with how quickly maddening inflates HP, Lorenz will stop ohkoing very quickly into the timeskip while Marianne will not until the very tail end of the game.

And what is Ward doing that makes it worth mentioning? Enemy mages hit too hard for any physical unit to avoid being one rounded regardless and mages don't do enough damage to worth justify using it. Nobody likes using Hanneman for that spell, so why is Lorenz different in that regard?

In short, while Lorenz is usable as unit, so is any other unit with the right setup and investment. With having no stand out Stats, Combat arts, Skills, or Boons, he puts himself at lower end of the unit spectrum.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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1 hour ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Everything you have just said is wrong apart from about ward

How is everything I said wrong? Because if anything, I'd say you're in the wrong here, as you've said nothing to dispute what I've said (and most of what I just stated is facts anyway). Or are you going to keep pretending you have a point when both of us know you don't have one?

 

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You are ignoring are ignoring growth rates, like you said at the beginning. Growth rates factor in and completely some of the thing you've said: marianne has 25% less defence than lorenz, meaning she will never have similar defensive capabilities,  their magical capabilities differ by 10% (not much) meaning marianne only has a slight edge here.

Also, if that mage is going to one round your physical unit (take raphael as an example, even though he sucks.), thats still 14 less damage taken, meaning raphael will live. So ward does help. A LOT.

I may have just compared marianne to lorenz, but you really shouldn't, because both fill in different roles (for the most part), with lorenz being a magical frontliner (his own special job along with sylvain).

Also, lorenz can use magic bow and frozen lance to great effect, even without being in a magical class

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6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

How is everything I said wrong? Because if anything, I'd say you're in the wrong here, as you've said nothing to dispute what I've said (and most of what I just stated is facts anyway). Or are you going to keep pretending you have a point when both of us know you don't have one?

 

You havent made any points though. you've just made snide, annoying remarks whilst I'm actually writing paragraphs of argument to talk to other people. And on the occasions where I've answered you and invalidated your points, you just repeat them, except word it differently.

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20 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

You havent made any points though. you've just made snide, annoying remarks whilst I'm actually writing paragraphs of argument to talk to other people. And on the occasions where I've answered you and invalidated your points, you just repeat them, except word it differently.

Sounds a lot like what you're doing now. You haven't disputed that Gremory gets doubled uses on all spells, or that it needs high ranks in Faith and Reason (both of which I'd likely have any mages investing in anyway) to access, as opposed to Dark Knight needing a lot of Riding training to access (Riding tends to be a chore to train if you don't have a bonus in it) and some lance rank on the side in addition to Reason. You also haven't said anything to contest speed being one of the most important stats in FE. Then you "correct" me with BS about Agnea's Arrow having 5 uses, while Fire has 25. Also, I don't see a correlation between how much a person says and how much of it is meaningful - I know someone who loves to post ginormous walls of text, but that person says rather little for how wordy their posts are.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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15 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Having a Dex % chance of halving damage

Has that been verified yet? That relic skills scale off of stats the same way their regular versions do?
 

15 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Speaking of Marianne, what is Lorenz doing that makes his contributions worth more than the +4 base magic she comes with on top of learning Frozen Lance faster as budding talent rather than at C+ Lances? You can also see the rather substantial difference Magic in the paladin example I've posted above. And with how quickly maddening inflates HP, Lorenz will stop ohkoing very quickly into the timeskip while Marianne will not until the very tail end of the game.

That's basically why Lorenz usually wants to unlock Warlock to bump his base up(and is really happy his p.skill is what it is). This keeps him in the OHKO game for quite a bit longer. But, it's a bit of a commitment and means he'll likely get to paladin slightly later. At least he'll have Ragnarok to bide his time.
... it's probably debatable, actually.

Edited by Cysx

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19 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

You are ignoring are ignoring growth rates, like you said at the beginning. Growth rates factor in and completely some of the thing you've said: marianne has 25% less defence than lorenz, meaning she will never have similar defensive capabilities,  their magical capabilities differ by 10% (not much) meaning marianne only has a slight edge here.

Also, if that mage is going to one round your physical unit (take raphael as an example, even though he sucks.), thats still 14 less damage taken, meaning raphael will live. So ward does help. A LOT.

Also, lorenz can use magic bow and frozen lance to great effect, even without being in a magical class

I've just shown evidence to contrary of Lorenz being substantially bulkier with it this. Class bases are more relevant than growths will ever be and as a sreult most units won't turn too differently form each other in areas they are not proficient in

Lets put that Ward example to the test then. An Average Level 29 Raphael has 11 Resistance, or 17 with Ward. Now compare that to enemy mages in Ch 14. As you can see, even with some of the highest HP Growth in the game, he still one rounded while enemy mages only only grow stronger.

The said could be said for any magically inclined unit. Heck, certify Ignatz as a Warlock while having him stay as a sniper and he'll blow Lorenz out of the water with Shining Bow Hunter's Volley.

Quote

That's basically why Lorenz usually wants to unlock Warlock to bump his base up(and is really happy his p.skill is what it is). This keeps him in the OHKO game for quite a bit longer. But, it's a bit of a commitment and means he'll likely get to paladin slightly later. At least he'll have Ragnarok to bide his time.

It really doesn't make that much of a difference for Lorenz since he already has a decent a growth. It only makes a 2 point difference for him on average. Frozen Lance will be stronger than Ragnarok with a Steel Lance + anyways.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It really doesn't make that much of a difference for Lorenz since he already has a decent a growth. It only makes a 2 point difference for him on average.

Yeah, I'm aware. But 2 points are 2 points. Would you argument have been exactly the same if that was his natural average, considering his p.skill?

"Frozen Lance will be stronger than Ragnarok with a Steel Lance + anyways."
On warlock at level ~20, not quite. And range is nice.

Edited by Cysx

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15 minutes ago, Cysx said:

 2 points are 2 points. Would you argument have been exactly the same if that was his natural average, considering his p.skill?

"Frozen Lance will be stronger than Ragnarok with a Steel Lance + anyways."
On warlock at level ~20, not quite. And range is nice.

It'd take him 660 Reason exp to go from C Reason -> B+ Reason to have chance of certifying as a Warlock for +2 Magic. Considering that he wants B Lances, B Authorithy, and C Riding at the very minimum, it can be tough to fit in all of that in a timely manner . Especially if you want B Faith for Ward like TC does.

The Steel Lance remark was refering to when Lorenez was a mage. By the the time he becomes a Warlock, Silver Lances still manages outdamage Ragnarock even considering Black Tomefaire thanks to it's 30% Dex Scaling.  

Edited by LoneRecon400

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51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

It'd take him 660 Reason exp to go from C Reason -> B+ Reason to have chance of certifying as a Warlock for +2 Magic. Considering that he wants B Lances, B Authorithy, and C Riding at the very minimum, it can be tough to fit in all of that in a timely manner . Especially if you want B Faith for Ward like TC does.

Yeah, that's why it's debatable imo. A +2 base will serve him for the remainder of the game but it's a relatively tall order. It doesn't necessarily hurt his performance much to be a warlock for a short time, it's initially a potent OHKO pick... but then again, nor do 2 less points of magic throughout, and there's potentially the issue of lancefaire 2.
... and I don't want Ward like TC does. Edit: That came off wrong. No offense TC, I just don't think Ward is even close to being worth the investment. We disagree on a lot really, but that's no reason for me to be a douche. My bad.

51 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

The Steel Lance remark was refering to when Lorenez was a mage. By the the time he becomes a Warlock, Silver Lances still manages outdamage Ragnarock even considering Black Tomefaire thanks to it's 30% Dex Scaling.  

I meant for his time as warlock, but I guess I should have been clearer. As for Silver, that's assuming he's at B lances, and if he's at B lances, chances are he can savescum for Paladin already.
All of this is within a relatively small pocket of time considering he gets Ragnarok at B. It was mostly just a comment in passing.

Edited by Cysx

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On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point one: Ever heard of lysithea's def?

Lysithea is an amazing unit who is literally a walking nuke, but dies when any enemy so much as breathes in her general direction. Even her res is pretty bad. Lorenz, on the other hand, depending on his class path, can have a def growth of 40% (lysithea has 10%), making him the only bulky mage. He is the only mage who can hold his own on the frontline, making him far more versatile than lysithea.

100% agree with @LoneRecon400 regarding mages being unable to tank physical hit.

Also what class would Lorenz actually would wanna class change to get +10% def. The classes that boost def are: Armor knights, cav, paladin, fortress knight, wyvern rider, wyvern lord, great knight, dark knight, holy knight. Dark knight/holy knight are too late where it doesn't make a difference(not to mention it is 5% not 10%) and cav+paladin boost 5% def not 10%. And I def would not want to make him an armor unit(trash class).

On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point two: What the hell is a wide spell list?

There are some pretty good high magic power users in this game who have a pretty bad spell list (Hanneman, Sylvain, to name a few), who can't properly utilize their magic completely (Hanneman is good with magic bow though). Lorenz, on the other hand, has fire,sagiatte, ragnarock and AGNEAS ARROW. Despite having less powerful magic than say marianne or lysithea, he makes up for it with ridiculously powerful spells.

While I agree he has a good spell list(B ragnorock is amazing), the reasoning in this argument is very flawed.

As mentioned by @DarthR0xas, Hanneman's spell list is pretty similar(Imo better because he gets thoron). Also Sylvain is not a good magic user. He has base 5 mag and only a 30% growth rate(40% with class growth isn't that good either especially compared to other magic units). When coming up with examples, make sure it actually makes sense.

Also it is important to look at damage output rather than just unit's mag stat or spell mt. Iirc between reason B to A, Lorenz has the highest dmg output out of any magic units, but outside that range, he does one of the least amount.

Also you are putting too much hype on Agneas arrow. It is just a 1 more mt spell than ragnarock that is super heavy.

On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point three: y u no heal lysithea 😞 ?

Lorenz has access to recover (most units have this but its still useful and WARD. Lorenz is the only unit (which is viable) that has access to ward. This helps lorenz in the long run become even more useful at support roles. Lysithea only has access to heal, making her even less flexible.

Lysithea has warp at B and not to mention she has a boon in faith, making her the fastest unit to gain access to warp(this is especially useful for ltc/efficient runs). This makes her a better support unit that Lorenz. I think most people can agree that warp>recover. 

On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point four: What is this madness? a mage with high strength?

Unlike every other mage, lorenz actually has decent str and decent combat arts (lysithea does have soulblade), allowing him to remain on the frontlines slightly longer, whilst once again increasing his versatility. If lorenz runs out of usages on his spells, his decent speed allows for doubling occasionally (consistently in my case), meaning having a silver lance or brave lance is also viable.

*average strength. He has base 8 str and only 40% str growth. That isn't high, that is just average. Also Lorenz does not double consistently. He only has a 40% Spd growth and base 7. Byleth doesn't consistently double, there is no way Lorenz can.

On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Point five: tough luck, Lorenz also has the best heroes relic.

Thrysus, an accessory relic, gives +2 magic range (4 range ragnarock!), which is busted, but if a unit has a crest of gloucester, they get pavise/aegis a lot of the time. Lorenz and lysithea have access to this effect.

Anybody can technically use a hero relic. Sure he gets pavise/aegis. I don't know the exact skill proc rate, I imagine it being less than 50%, but it is extremely dangerous to rely on such a low percentage and most(myself included) would not rely on it.

On 7/2/2020 at 12:54 PM, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

point six: What is so special about gremory?

Gremory is literally just handicapped dark knight but also is exclusive to female units. Its extremely overrated; its only advantage is slightly higher charm and dexterity growth. Dark knight has higher mobility, versatility, strength and equal magical capabilities. If anything, lysithea is misssing out on access to poison strike and lifetaker (both help lorenz become more bulky).

Gremory being good is unit dependent. While I do agree with you dark knight being better offensively, but some units prefer staying as Gremory ex lysithea for double warp and Dorothea for double meteor.

Poison strike does not make Lorenz more bulky... That's not what the skill does. Also this really only benefit him on pp.

Lifetaker is a very situational skill because it only works on player phase and the enemy unit have to actually die in order for it to be useful. Not to mention, you are sacrificing your time being in warlock(which gives him x2 spells and black tome faire), which significantly nerfs him offense.

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2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Lifetaker is a very situational skill because it only works on player phase and the enemy unit have to actually die in order for it to be useful. Not to mention, you are sacrificing your time being in warlock(which gives him x2 spells and black tome faire), which significantly nerfs him offense.

Aside from that, it sucks now; unlike in Awakening and Fates, where it healed half your max HP after a kill, it only heals for half of what the enemy had at the time. This means that you'd have to one-shot the opponent to get much healing. In the context of Maddening, I don't see that happening much, if at all, short of lucky critical hits.

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I had no idea that Lifetaker was that bad now. Is it me or are the developers trying too hard to balance some things but ended up nerfing things way too much too hard? I know that is off topic but still

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14 minutes ago, Barren said:

I had no idea that Lifetaker was that bad now. Is it me or are the developers trying too hard to balance some things but ended up nerfing things way too much too hard? I know that is off topic but still

The devs are always tweaking the relative power of different abilities.  Some of it is reactive to problems in previous games, some if it is addressing the mechanics that are introduced in a new game.  Personally, I'm happy the devs are willing to adjust things to keep the games interesting instead of letting the same broken combos persist through every game in the franchise.

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1 hour ago, Barren said:

I had no idea that Lifetaker was that bad now. Is it me or are the developers trying too hard to balance some things but ended up nerfing things way too much too hard? I know that is off topic but still

The devs are always tweaking stuff between games. Some of it is nerfing stuff that was too overpowered in the prior installment. For example, Luna (by which I mean the tome, as opposed to the skill). When it first was introduced in Blazing Blade, it was arguably broken, as it negated resistance, had really high accuracy for dark magic (95) and had a rather high crit chance. Come Sacred Stones, however, Luna had its accuracy severely slashed, going from 95 to 50, and its crit rate halved. These turned it from gamebreaking to practically useless.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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On 7/6/2020 at 4:27 PM, SumG said:

The devs are always tweaking the relative power of different abilities.  Some of it is reactive to problems in previous games, some if it is addressing the mechanics that are introduced in a new game.  Personally, I'm happy the devs are willing to adjust things to keep the games interesting instead of letting the same broken combos persist through every game in the franchise.

I can respect that. It also gives me the impression that some old strategies like vantage + wrath for example while it still works, and it combos well with counter attack from retribution or chalice of beginnings, it can still be beaten by either being out ranged or enemy gambits. I wonder if maybe the developers were hoping that we take every combination now matter what was changed and try them for ourselves and see how they work.

I recently tried out darting blow + battalion desperation and it I can confirm that it does work since they are both player phase skills unlike quick riposte and battalion vantage in which they both don't work together (someone in one my threads have tested it and confirmed it). Desperation both regular and battalion versions are supposed to allow you immediate follow up attacks as opposes to you hit enemy, enemy hits you and then you hit enemy again. I guess it can work if you're going to one round the enemy anyways without taking any damage in return. On normal mode I know it works well enough. I can imagine that it will be harder to pull off on the higher difficulties because of the enemies having higher stats.

 

On 7/6/2020 at 5:09 PM, Shadow Mir said:

The devs are always tweaking stuff between games. Some of it is nerfing stuff that was too overpowered in the prior installment. For example, Luna (by which I mean the tome, as opposed to the skill). When it first was introduced in Blazing Blade, it was arguably broken, as it negated resistance, had really high accuracy for dark magic (95) and had a rather high crit chance. Come Sacred Stones, however, Luna had its accuracy severely slashed, going from 95 to 50, and its crit rate halved. These turned it from gamebreaking to practically useless.

Oh wow. Luna was that strong huh? Good to note actually. I also remember a time when Vantage was busted too. I forgot which FE game it was but I remember it basically negated enemy phase (I could be misremembering something of course). Or in Awakening where Galeforce was one of the best skills in the game. I know they toned it down as of now with Edelgard's combart art since you can only use it up to 5 times I think.

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1 hour ago, Barren said:

Oh wow. Luna was that strong huh? Good to note actually. I also remember a time when Vantage was busted too. I forgot which FE game it was but I remember it basically negated enemy phase (I could be misremembering something of course). Or in Awakening where Galeforce was one of the best skills in the game. I know they toned it down as of now with Edelgard's combart art since you can only use it up to 5 times I think.

Somewhat; it was only particularly good on bosses, though, as mooks tended to have poor stats to the point it wasn't worth using on them. Also, on the subject of Awakening, a lot of the weapons it brought back from prior games were nerfed. Especially the ones from the Jugdral saga (note that said weapons originally had 30 might and gave stat boosts. They still do, but it's only to one stat, and the boost is only +5). It was Fates that nerfed Galeforce, too; not only did it require the unit with it to be unsupported (which killed the double Galeforce pair up strategy; pair up itself was also nerfed), it was also locked behind a paywall. On top of that, it's a level 35 skill in a game where those skills are not going to be relevant for very long. Fates also nerfed Brave weapons; not only do they only attack twice when initiating, they also either halve your strength or magic after using them, or they give out defensive penalties. They also have low might and accuracy.

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22 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Somewhat; it was only particularly good on bosses, though, as mooks tended to have poor stats to the point it wasn't worth using on them. Also, on the subject of Awakening, a lot of the weapons it brought back from prior games were nerfed. Especially the ones from the Jugdral saga (note that said weapons originally had 30 might and gave stat boosts. They still do, but it's only to one stat, and the boost is only +5). It was Fates that nerfed Galeforce, too; not only did it require the unit with it to be unsupported (which killed the double Galeforce pair up strategy; pair up itself was also nerfed), it was also locked behind a paywall. On top of that, it's a level 35 skill in a game where those skills are not going to be relevant for very long. Fates also nerfed Brave weapons; not only do they only attack twice when initiating, they also either halve your strength or magic after using them, or they give out defensive penalties. They also have low might and accuracy.

I see. That's a good history lesson in that case

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Point 1: Mages shouldn't be on the front lines. Every mage dies in enemy phase on maddening so having 6 more defense is irrelevant if you die anyway.

Point 2: He has powerful spells sure, but he can't double for crap and often can't reliably kill, while lysithea has effective damage, amazing utility in warp, luna, and much higher mag. The fact that he can't reliably kill in one round in maddening is what prevents him from being great.

Point 3:
Lysithea doesn't need to heal? Lorenz's doesn't have fortify or physics so his healing is irrelevent. Lysithea's main draw on faith magic is utility, lorenz's main draw on faith magic is non existent really. Besides, being a better healer than the character with the worst healing spells in the game doesn't make you a good healer. Lysithea was never meant to be a good healer, so Lorenz being slightly better at something lysithea doesn't do does not make him a good healer. Leave the healing up to mercedes, linhardt, or anyone else with physic and fortify.

Point 4:
No. Lorenz gets doubled by everything and dies immediately in maddening. Giving him a brave lance and expecting him to survive on the frontlines is suicidal. Keep him far far away from the frontlines. His strenght stat means crap in maddening, since he doesn't survive 1 range combat in anything other than maybe armour knights. Besides, you're doing something wrong when you run out of spells past the first 3 chapters of the game, in which he can't be recruited in 3 of the 4 paths/easily dies in ng maddening anyway.

Point 5:
Thyrsus isn't Lorenz's relic. You can give it to any mage. Mages aren't supposed to be on the frontlines and be attacked, so even when the crestless use it, it doesn't matter one bit. Besides, most mages have crests aside from like hubert and dorothea, so the 10 damage matters even less. The pavise/aegis effect means crap on mages since they die to everything anyway so there's literally no point in just keeping it on lorenz or lysithea. You can give it to any mage and swap it around.

Point 6: One does not win a "xxx is a good unit" arguement by argueing why xxx is better than another character in one specific point. You need to give him a good selling point by themselves, not say he outclasses another character in something that's not even true. Lysithea can become a dark knight too, so your arguement makes no sense. You're just saying dark knight>gremory which doesn't even impact this arguement since dark knight isn't gender locked. Having access to gremory is a positive since it allows for more options. Lorenz simply has less class options. Not that he'd be a good gremory anyway since his faith list sucks and he doesn't really need the extra spell slots in reason.


Overall, I think your arguement is pretty shit. While I do admit that lorenz isn't bad, he's far from the best unit in the game. I'm not saying that because I was swayed by your arguement however, since many, if not all, of your points were very weak and/or simply untrue. I hope you shall learn from this experience, and become better at defending your beliefs, however true or untrue they may be. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavours. 

Edited by Gordin

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