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A tier list: feel free to argue

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A tier list based on my opinion and personal experience in maddening mode. My playstyle is slow, defensive and safe. Jeritza is rated low for reasons that I've put further down. I had to do research for the other DLC because I don't have it.

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Edited by FireEmblemFan3475

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What's the deal with Balthus and Raphael, aren't they virtually similar? Balthus has a better personal skill and a personal Relic, I guess that really matters for Maddening. Otherwise I mostly agree. I'm surprised Lorenz is rated higher than most of the people in Reliable tier, same with Ashe in Decent over some of the people in Hit or Miss.

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I think it might be easier for me to do an alternate tier list rather than go through everybody. Am gonna do my alternate tier list based solely on how I've seen them perform in combat (in other words, do as much as I can to suppress my biases about their characters). Even the characters I rank lowest are people I still think are usable (and both would and have used happily) - I just don't think they're as good.

Effectiveness rating (how likely I am to deploy them based on battle performance, out of 10)

10: Byleth (either gender), Edelgard, Claude 

9: Dimitri, Jeritza

8: Shamir, Catherine, Hubert, Lysithea, Sylvain, Petra, Felix, Leonie

7: Yuri, Hapi, Constance, Hilda, Hanneman, Mercedes, Seteth

6: Balthus, Ferdinand, Linhardt, Flayn, Ignatz, Ingrid, Marianne, Alois

5: Dedue, Dorothea, Annette, Bernadetta

4: Cyril, Manuela, Lorenz, Raphael

3: Anna, Ashe, Caspar, Gilbert

2: N/A

1: N/A

 

I've seen dodge tank Warmaster M!Byleth in action now, which is the only reason why I don't rate M!Byleth a whole rank lower. Wyvern Lord + Aymr is the most broken thing in the game, which is why Edelgard ranks at 10.

The only reason Dimitri doesn't get a 10 is because he isn't easily a flier, and because I don't often use Battalion skills (although I recognise how useful they are). I'm so surprised Jeritza ranks so low on your tier list - he's easily the best recruitable character in the game, and he arrives with weapon levels and a class ready for endgame - his stats aren't particularly far off either.

Everyone in my 8/10 tier is at roughly the same place as yours, so no complaints

Hanneman only rates so highly because I was blown away by him in Sniper - otherwise he deserves to be lower-ranked. I personally haven't had blow-me-away experiences with Hilda in battle, although she is very solid, which is why she doesn't rank higher. The DLC units are all good units, but I don't think any of them are particularly great. 4x Bolting on Constance is a little game-breaking, but because I don't use siege tomes a lot (I keep conserving them like a miser, then ending up not needing them) she doesn't warrant amazing status.

Balthus was actually not that great when I used him, but I have a feeling he was RNG-screwed hence the slightly lower rating. Ferdinand is solid but not more, as is Ingrid - for me they don't deserve higher or lower than a 6. I actually think Alois is underrated because of his late arrival - you may not 'need' him, but he is good.

Dedue's only real problem is how far behind he is when he returns - Lorenz and Ashe wouldn't get higher than a 5 for this same reason. I know Vengeance Bernadetta is ridiculously powerful, but I can't bring myself to use that build for her.

Cyril has consistently sucked for me, and even PBV and good classes haven't saved him, hence the 4. Manuela doesn't get the lowest rating because one time I actually got her to Bolting (it was a slog) and, pre-DLC, it catapulted her into my endgame team. Still not great though. And I've already discussed Lorenz and Raph elsewhere.

I actually think Anna's combat is OK, but her obvious deficiencies mean she has to be relegated to bottom. The other three 3/10s are just disappointing.

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5 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

A tier list based on my opinion and personal experience.

It being made on your own personal experience is kind of a shield against commentary, I suppose, since you can respond to anything I say with "the RNG turned out differently for me", but some comments:

-Edelgard should absolutely be in the highest tier. She's basically FByleth with a better talent list and Raging Storm, which is absolutely bonkers.

-Why is Petra two tiers lower than Hilda/Sylvain/Felix? They're all at least pretty similar (and good). Leonie is also probably too low. And Catherine, especially if you snag her ASAP. All of these characters are some of the best non-lord physical characters. (Catherine's placement only makes sense to me if you're considering SS Catherine... how are you handling characters whose value varies by route? And anyway SS Hilda is just as problematic.)

-Dorothea and Ingrid are both too low. Ingrid is not quite on the same level as Catherine/Petra/Leonie but quite good, 60% speed growth and pegasus knight access is nothing to sneeze at in this game. Dorothea has Physic, Thoron, and Meteor, which makes her one of the best spellcasters in the game. (see below for more)

-Dedue may go missing but even before then he has 12 chapters, which is more than Seteth and equal to Alois, and he's quite valuable early. He is not the fourth worst unit in the game. I'd rate him above everyone in your "decent" tier except Linhardt, personally. Also Jeritza, if you want to rank someone down for "6 chapters" then that's on you but he is definitely good in those chapters, so personally I feel he should be higher.

-Anna is terrible due to her lack of supports, should be in the bottom tier.

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I think it might be easier for me to do an alternate tier list rather than go through everybody. Am gonna do my alternate tier list based solely on how I've seen them perform in combat (in other words, do as much as I can to suppress my biases about their characters). Even the characters I rank lowest are people I still think are usable (and both would and have used happily) - I just don't think they're as good.

I agree with this list pretty well.

Perhaps my two biggest objections are Hubert and Dorothea. I like Hubert (top five character in the game for me personality-wise) but as a unit? ehhh. His faith list is garbage and he falls behind in Advanced tier due to a lack of worthwhile classes for him (can't benefit from Warlock's Tomefaire or Bishop's white magic boosts, can't access the DLC classes), I've often just made him a paladin with Frozen Lance at that point but that's obviously not competing with mages who have utility. On the other hand, I think Dorothea is one of the best mages in the game: Physic and Thoron are great (a combination only Marianne has otherwise, who I likewise would probably push a little higher... Hapi also has a variation on it but is a bit worse IMO), and the value of Meteor can not be overstated on Maddening, allowing linked attacks everywhere, and she has the best/fastest access to it (Hanneman joins behind on skills and has to wait for A+, Anna lacks supports, Constance has few supports, Manuela is weak in Reason, Hilda is not a mage and is only neutral in Reason).

That said I definitely think it's a good list and I liked reading your explanations. 🙂

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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I feel like Ferdinand should be rated much higher, maybe just under Sylvain. Their growths are almost the same, and they both have access to Swift Strikes which makes both of them really valuable delete buttons post-timeskip. The only difference is that Sylvain is stupid easy to recruit with FByleth, and his existence grants access to Lance of Ruin. The Lance of Ruin isn't really locked to Sylvain though; since Ferdinand has a Crest, you could give it to him too, and the Gautier-locked Art isn't really that important anyway. I'd argue that Ferdinand has a way better personal skill for Maddening too, since hit rates can be shaky against the fast enemies, and especially pegs.

I also feel like Dorothea deserves to be higher/Constance deserves to be lower, as I'd probably rate them pretty close to each other. They both have a siege spell, but overall Constance's spell list is much worse than Dorothea's. No 2-3 spell (Dorothea has Thoron), Fimbulvetr has unreliable hit (65%), and Constance's only valuable Faith spell is Rescue. You have to build Constance's Faith up to B to get Rescue too, whereas Dorothea gets her prize of Physic at C and doesn't need anymore investment in that skill. Constance's personal skill is also pretty mediocre, as it can't be controlled by the player, and she doesn't gain much from the Spd/Def/Res boosts anyway. Dorothea's is at least useful throughout the whole game, and can be planned around. Main advantage Constance has is that she has boons in the mounted skills instead of banes like Dorothea, I suppose. I guess it depends on how much you value Dark Flier over the other benefits Dorothea has, but since mage combat drops off really hard anyway I find Dorothea's better support to be more valuable.

I think it makes sense that Jeritza isn't in the upper echelons. There's simply not enough game time for him to do stuff that your existing units can't already do, and the things that are broken about him don't have time to matter (DC from class, Darting from Flying etc.).

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2 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Remember that this is from my experience

Then all I need to say to invalidate this is that personal experience means nothing.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Then all I need to say to invalidate this is that personal experience means nothing.

Actually explain why you think this before annoying me again. Also, this tier list is my opinion: there is no invalidation because none of this is based on fact; ITS MY OPINION.

Also like the title says, feel free to argue

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7 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Actually explain why you think this before annoying me again. Also, this tier list is my opinion: there is no invalidation because none of this is based on fact; ITS MY OPINION.

Also like the title says, feel free to argue

Because a lot of aspects of these games are random - you can't guarantee that a unit will turn out the exact same way over two playthroughs of the game. Likewise, I can't recommend a unit to someone else just because they did well for me - once again, as the nature of level ups in these games is random, they might not do so well for someone else.

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11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because a lot of aspects of these games are random - you can't guarantee that a unit will turn out the exact same way over two playthroughs of the game. Likewise, I can't recommend a unit to someone else just because they did well for me - once again, as the nature of level ups in these games is random, they might not do so well for someone else.

Now that, is a good and fair point, because everything in fire emblem is indeed, RANDOM.

If you want to upload your own tier list here and compare and argue, feel free, because I find it fun to argue and discuss my favourite game

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6 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Remember this is from my experience

Yep, I'm not questioning your specific experience of the game, or that it's bound to be different from mine. But in a thread which has in its title "feel free to argue", I assumed you were looking for comments like my earlier one, which attempted to set out how exactly my opinion differed from yours, and why I felt that way.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree with this list pretty well.

Perhaps my two biggest objections are Hubert and Dorothea. I like Hubert (top five character in the game for me personality-wise) but as a unit? ehhh. His faith list is garbage and he falls behind in Advanced tier due to a lack of worthwhile classes for him (can't benefit from Warlock's Tomefaire or Bishop's white magic boosts, can't access the DLC classes), I've often just made him a paladin with Frozen Lance at that point but that's obviously not competing with mages who have utility. On the other hand, I think Dorothea is one of the best mages in the game: Physic and Thoron are great (a combination only Marianne has otherwise, who I likewise would probably push a little higher... Hapi also has a variation on it but is a bit worse IMO), and the value of Meteor can not be overstated on Maddening, allowing linked attacks everywhere, and she has the best/fastest access to it (Hanneman joins behind on skills and has to wait for A+, Anna lacks supports, Constance has few supports, Manuela is weak in Reason, Hilda is not a mage and is only neutral in Reason).

That said I definitely think it's a good list and I liked reading your explanations. 🙂

Both of your objections are quite fair - basically I do a similar thing to you for Hubert, get Fiendish blow then stick him in Paladin till Lv 30. Which is annoying because his Reason list is very versatile, but is then sealed for a decent part of the game. The reason he still gets an 8 for me is because his Frozen Lance was very much a reliable OHKO even on Maddening, and then Arrow of Indra gave him the range he'd normally expect as a mage. That saves his midgame, and Paladin makes him a little bulkier than your other mages (enough, say, to survive an archer one time or something like that). Dark Knight then gets you his magic back - his Faith list isn't good, but units with a high magic stat and Recover are hard to come by. His magic stat is one of the big reasons he's good in general - Lysithea is the only unit I've seen outstrip it, and even then it depends on RNG and her class progressions. Which means that Recover is getting back as much HP as Healing Focus, perhaps more. Dark Knight means he has Canto to avoid the frontlines, and having 12 uses of Tomefaire-boosted 3-range magic without a range-booster is very very pleasant (and normally enough for any one battle).

As for Dorothea - unlike Hubert, Hexblade isn't good enough on Dorothea for her to care about physical weapons (and C+ swords isn't that hard, but it does take time). But she can go Warlock then Gremory, so no biggie. Physic and Thoron is, like you say, a great combination for a mage and it's available really early for Dorothea, which is good on Maddening. And of course even if you're not a big siege tome user like me, the linked attack benefits of Meteor are amazing enough to acknowledge. In fact, the lack of suitable siege tome users in the game alone is definitely a good reason to be ranked higher (IMO Constance is the only outright better siege tome user), and in hindsight I probably should. There are a couple of reasons I gave her a 5 despite all this - one is that her Faith list stops at Physic. On its own, this wouldn't be a problem - Physic alone is good enough for a unit to be a secondary supporter. However, Dorothea's magic stat isn't amazing, meaning that everyone else with Physic/Fortify heals more than her. And this isn't the end of the world (even though it's the only thing her Faith list adds to her), but it also means that Agnea's Arrow/Thoron don't hit as hard as similar-Mt spells on other mages. None of these are critical issues for Dorothea, but they did mean that I would often replace her mage-build for more powerful mages despite Meteor, and any kind of other build is only middling on her. Ultimately, though, you make fair points about Dorothea (and Marianne, who I rate a bit higher than Dorothea, might need to move up as a result).

51 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I think it makes sense that Jeritza isn't in the upper echelons. There's simply not enough game time for him to do stuff that your existing units can't already do, and the things that are broken about him don't have time to matter (DC from class, Darting from Flying etc.).

I mean, Counterattack and Darting Blow are both good things, but I agree they aren't necessary. And Ferdinand at least can do some of the things that Jeritza can. But Jeritza comes ready-made and ready to go, and can be shaped into almost anything you could want. Getting him to WL is tricky, but not impossible. He can also do any sword class, cavalry class, or brawling class with relative ease, even in 5 chapters. And he's good in all of them, not to mention his great unique class. I guess I just disagree that there isn't enough time to change him if you want, but even if that weren't true, he arrives powerful enough to make your endgame team, with one of the better lances in the game. No effort and adds value - definitely a higher tier pick for me.

4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because a lot of aspects of these games are random - you can't guarantee that a unit will turn out the exact same way over two playthroughs of the game. Likewise, I can't recommend a unit to someone else just because they did well for me - once again, as the nature of level ups in these games is random, they might not do so well for someone else.

You can attempt to speak from averages and numbers all the time, but that isn't always going to be helpful. Some things have to be experienced directly to understand why games play out the way they do - it's why not all games are perfectly balanced even though devs spend a lot of time testing their product. For example, Cyril ought not to be worse in theory than units who fill the same niche as him, and yet Cyril is Cyril. Don't get me wrong, being objective is a good thing, but objectivity doesn't devalue one's personal experience of gameplay.

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1 minute ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yep, I'm not questioning your specific experience of the game, or that it's bound to be different from mine. But in a thread which has in its title "feel free to argue", I assumed you were looking for comments like my earlier one, which attempted to set out how exactly my opinion differed from yours, and why I felt that way.

 

I am looking for comments like your earlier one, I want to discuss and/or argue about this so I can perfect it and then upload it again. I just don't want it to become to intense arguing, like my: 'lorenz is a good unit: change my mind' thread; That one has become extremely intense.

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2 minutes ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

I am looking for comments like your earlier one, I want to discuss and/or argue about this so I can perfect it and then upload it again. I just don't want it to become to intense arguing, like my: 'lorenz is a good unit: change my mind' thread; That one has become extremely intense.

Fair enough, and yeah that other thread is pretty fierce.

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Tier lists for this game really need Rule Sets otherwise it's just mess since people play this game very differently.

For Example:

   - How much Monastery usage is being allowed? Would something like Fishing be included? How about would Fishing to raise Professor Rank be treated any different? How should Gardening for Stat Boosters be treated? What about Rigging for Promotions? 

    - How should Aux Battles be treated? Like what's preventing somebody for using them to grind out for master good class masteries like Death Blow or Quick Riposte? To the extreme side, what is preventing people from Grinding to S+ skills? Should Quest Battles be treated any differently? The Merchant Quest Battles?

     - How should recruited units be treated? Because there is sometimes very large gap in  performance between the same unit, like Cyril or Hilda in Sliver Snow vs Azure Moon / Verdant Wind.

...and so on. I'd think clarifying those question could really help a list like this.

What that being said, here are some of my thoughts:

  • Aint no way Rapheal and Manuela are bottom tier. Rapheal having Rally Strength for the beginning of the game really helps when combined with Ignatz's Rallies while Maneula has Warp, which is enough utility to keep her mid tier at worst.
  • Bernadette is High tier at least thanks to Vengeance, as is Deude and Cyril.
  • Jeritza has some of the best bases in the game, so no way is he next to Caspar.
  • Mercedes, Ignatz, and Lorenz are all way too high for not really having the skill set to back it up.
Edited by LoneRecon400

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24 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I mean, Counterattack and Darting Blow are both good things, but I agree they aren't necessary. And Ferdinand at least can do some of the things that Jeritza can. But Jeritza comes ready-made and ready to go, and can be shaped into almost anything you could want. Getting him to WL is tricky, but not impossible. He can also do any sword class, cavalry class, or brawling class with relative ease, even in 5 chapters. And he's good in all of them, not to mention his great unique class. I guess I just disagree that there isn't enough time to change him if you want, but even if that weren't true, he arrives powerful enough to make your endgame team, with one of the better lances in the game. No effort and adds value - definitely a higher tier pick for me.

I guess it's a matter of perspective here more than anything, since we can agree on Jeritza being strong. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't have time to change him around, but that his availability holds him back too much. He can't contribute to the early and midgame at all, which are often harder than the endgame in pretty much every FE since by endgame all of your other units have had time to grow and have their builds finished. It's true he's very good during the endgame, but it's likely that so will most of your other units, so in terms of contribution I find it hard to say he adds a lot.

 

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4 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I guess it's a matter of perspective here more than anything, since we can agree on Jeritza being strong. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't have time to change him around, but that his availability holds him back too much. He can't contribute to the early and midgame at all, which are often harder than the endgame in pretty much every FE since by endgame all of your other units have had time to grow and have their builds finished. It's true he's very good during the endgame, but it's likely that so will most of your other units, so in terms of contribution I find it hard to say he adds a lot

Entirely fair - Part II in general isn't as hard as Part I, and CF is also a bit kinder than other routes. Definitely just an issue of differing perspectives.

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There's a bunch of things missing here.

1. What exactly makes a unit "good"?  How easy it is to plop them in a niche?  How many niches they can fill?  How cool their voices are?
2. What mode is this for?  A Maddening tier list will look different from a Normal one.
3. What exactly is and isn't allowed?  Are we using broken weapons to grind out supports/classes?  Are we marching through maps ASAP?  What about limits to cooking/gardening/fishing?

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5 hours ago, eclipse said:

There's a bunch of things missing here.

1. What exactly makes a unit "good"?  How easy it is to plop them in a niche?  How many niches they can fill?  How cool their voices are?
2. What mode is this for?  A Maddening tier list will look different from a Normal one.
3. What exactly is and isn't allowed?  Are we using broken weapons to grind out supports/classes?  Are we marching through maps ASAP?  What about limits to cooking/gardening/fishing?

Very important questions that I want to echo. See, most tier lists focus on the highest difficulty/LTC/investment. That kind of thing. But going slow on even hard (or in theory Maddening, as long as you know how to secure the defense boosters from gardening relatively reliably, which I didn't in this run) you can do things like this. It just takes a bit of investment into levels/defense boosters. But it's far from optimal in either an LTC or investment as it's Raphael in a low move class with no doubling capability against most anything. Does it make Raphael a top tier unit? Not even close in my book. In the classes that make the most use of his specialties, he has poor movement. It's not even easy to get him into a class where he doesn't, nor in my opinion worth it with his speed issues. That said is it fun to do this? Yes. It's hilarious watching the guy beat the crap out of a hyped up final boss without even needing healing.

Spoiler

 

 

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9 hours ago, eclipse said:

There's a bunch of things missing here.

1. What exactly makes a unit "good"?  How easy it is to plop them in a niche?  How many niches they can fill?  How cool their voices are?
2. What mode is this for?  A Maddening tier list will look different from a Normal one.
3. What exactly is and isn't allowed?  Are we using broken weapons to grind out supports/classes?  Are we marching through maps ASAP?  What about limits to cooking/gardening/fishing?

Based on how well they have performed overall in my experience (over all routes and files I have with them) when I try to give them the best builds possible (apart from Jeritza, who Is rated low for only being there for 6 chapters and having no mastery abilities and falling off in the end of maddening). Oh yeah, this is a maddening tier list.

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10 hours ago, FireEmblemFan3475 said:

Based on how well they have performed overall in my experience (over all routes and files I have with them) when I try to give them the best builds possible (apart from Jeritza, who Is rated low for only being there for 6 chapters and having no mastery abilities and falling off in the end of maddening). Oh yeah, this is a maddening tier list.

You should prob edit the op to include this because context matters a lot. 

Also like many people mentioned before, include your play style. Is it ltc, semi efficient, turtle, etc. This matters a ton. 

Before you start arguing/debating with other people, do this first because we need to establish common ground.

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On 7/3/2020 at 1:24 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

Both of your objections are quite fair - basically I do a similar thing to you for Hubert, get Fiendish blow then stick him in Paladin till Lv 30. Which is annoying because his Reason list is very versatile, but is then sealed for a decent part of the game. The reason he still gets an 8 for me is because his Frozen Lance was very much a reliable OHKO even on Maddening, and then Arrow of Indra gave him the range he'd normally expect as a mage. That saves his midgame, and Paladin makes him a little bulkier than your other mages (enough, say, to survive an archer one time or something like that). Dark Knight then gets you his magic back - his Faith list isn't good, but units with a high magic stat and Recover are hard to come by. His magic stat is one of the big reasons he's good in general - Lysithea is the only unit I've seen outstrip it, and even then it depends on RNG and her class progressions. Which means that Recover is getting back as much HP as Healing Focus, perhaps more. Dark Knight means he has Canto to avoid the frontlines, and having 12 uses of Tomefaire-boosted 3-range magic without a range-booster is very very pleasant (and normally enough for any one battle).

Yeah, Dark Knight Hubert is definitely good. You just don't have him for very long, since he's locked to the route which ends fastest. I agree that Frozen Lance has reasonably solid killing power but by that point I don't really value killing power from range 1 on someone squishy that highly.

On 7/3/2020 at 1:24 PM, haarhaarhaar said:

As for Dorothea - unlike Hubert, Hexblade isn't good enough on Dorothea for her to care about physical weapons (and C+ swords isn't that hard, but it does take time). But she can go Warlock then Gremory, so no biggie. Physic and Thoron is, like you say, a great combination for a mage and it's available really early for Dorothea, which is good on Maddening. And of course even if you're not a big siege tome user like me, the linked attack benefits of Meteor are amazing enough to acknowledge. In fact, the lack of suitable siege tome users in the game alone is definitely a good reason to be ranked higher (IMO Constance is the only outright better siege tome user), and in hindsight I probably should. There are a couple of reasons I gave her a 5 despite all this - one is that her Faith list stops at Physic. On its own, this wouldn't be a problem - Physic alone is good enough for a unit to be a secondary supporter. However, Dorothea's magic stat isn't amazing, meaning that everyone else with Physic/Fortify heals more than her. And this isn't the end of the world (even though it's the only thing her Faith list adds to her), but it also means that Agnea's Arrow/Thoron don't hit as hard as similar-Mt spells on other mages. None of these are critical issues for Dorothea, but they did mean that I would often replace her mage-build for more powerful mages despite Meteor, and any kind of other build is only middling on her. Ultimately, though, you make fair points about Dorothea (and Marianne, who I rate a bit higher than Dorothea, might need to move up as a result).

Dorothea's magic stat isn't great but particularly for healing, it's not that big a deal. For instance, Dorothea and Lysithea have the same base magic, and Lysithea has 20% more growth... an average gap of 8 points at Level 41, which is about the highest level I'd expect either to reach. Even if Lysithea had Physic, her superior magic would only let her heal 2.67 more points... barely notcieable. If you compare Dorothea to the best magic stat which actually gets Physic, that's Marianne, who has the same base and +10 growth... i.e. 4 more points at Level 41, a gap of just 1.33 healing. The Healing Staff is a much more important factor in healing effectiveness.

It does mean her Thoron hits less hard than say Marianne's... 0 to 4 points depending on point in the game. Her Agnea's Arrow is indeed similarly behind other mages' Agnea's Arrow/Ragnarok/Hades, but keep in mind not all mages even get those. For instance, Marianne tops out at Fimbulvetr, 4 points weaker. Annette and Linhardt top out at Excalibur, 5 points weaker. (So all three of them will lose to Dorothea in peak damage once Dorothea hits A+.) Hubert tops out at Dark Spikes, 3 points weaker (which means that while both are Warlocks, Dorothea's Agnea's Arrow actually hits harder than Hubert's Dark Spikes, though his Paladin Frozen Lance will come out ahead of either as you noted). Her magic exceeds that of Lorenz (even with the latter's passive). So really, fewer mages than you might expect manage to consistently outpower her, and her skillset advantages are much more important IMO.

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