Jump to content

What makes a final map good?


Recommended Posts

Is it the final boss themselves? The map having an interesting twist? Difficulty? Story impact? Not having to use specific characters to deal the final blow?  The map forcing to engage with it? (Like not warp skipping or straight up ignoring whole segments) Obviously the answer is some combination of things, but what is it for you that makes it good or memorable?

I intentionally left out music since pretty much every endgame map has great music (and then there's Thracia)

Almost forgot, this is a topic about final maps and thus spoilers will be everywhere. 

Edited by Boomhauer007
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beyond the map's music and the final boss' appearance, I tend to find most final maps forgettable in a gameplay sense. The only novelty is usually seeing this big health bar with (usually) an unknown amount of HP to drain with your army at the peak of their performance. But when every game ends that way, the appeal can wear thin, and I often find myself preferring the maps be proper maps in addition to that final boss encounter. FE7, 8, 10 just sort of plop you in front of the big bad with infinite spawning enemies showing up on top of you. In a sense the game has warp skipped you without you having any say in the encounter. Equally frustrating is final map boss fights not allowing you to save beforehand.

My favorite final map in the series is Silver Snow's in Three Houses, and I wrote about its design recently: 

Quote

I think the most impressively designed map may be Silver Snow's finale. The White Beasts are like nothing else in the game, having sky high AS and dealing magic damage. In fact this map is one of just two in the whole game where more than half the enemies are inflicting magic damage, so your res stat matters a great deal here. The player is unlikely to realize it without a guide or having played the map previously, but they're presented with an interesting choice for progression. You can stop the infinite reinforcements immediately from your starting position, which powers up the boss and aggros the majority of the map to your position for a massive multi-turn onslaught of enemies. Or you can allow the white beasts to keep spawning and chomping at your heels as you work your way to the boss. The siege weapons are also placed in convenient locations for the player to make their stand and maybe even cheese some kills on the mecha guardians with a lucky crit. The boss is also like no other monster encounter in the game. Her armor recharges after every turn unless you manage the full break, which is unlikely given that she has higher charm than most of your units. And since every turn she uses a targeted AoE, you want to spread out your units - very difficult considering she's walled in on all sides to the point that only fliers can spread around her. And if you chose to let the reinforcements spawn, they will heal her just by being nearby. The only issue I have with the map is the prevalence of miracle, forcing you to always have a backup plan for when the white beasts, cardinals, or the boss survive a fatal blow.

Another final map I remember loving was Echoes. It was a lot of fun strategizing which of the super powerful opponents you should take out. Summoners are an obvious nuisance, but the monsters that already exist on the field perpetually split apart into more copies, so they take priority too. It's a lot of carving out safe spaces for units to advance and making sure everybody is healthy when the megaquake is coming.

So I guess if I had to bullet point what I like in a final map:

  • make sure it's not just a boss fight on its own
  • have a lot of powerful, unique enemies that get the player to stress about what needs to die first.
  • make the boss have unique abilities outside of combat that you must plan around.
  • When it comes to infinite spawning enemies, give the player a a properly balanced choice in whether they should fight or flight the situation. In any non-final map, infinite spawning enemies would be a map design nightmare since the player would be permitted to farm levels. But since this is a final map, the player would realize the end is now within reach.
  • have elements of multiple map objectives. Like the player being placed in a situation where they can't yet harm the boss, so they must defend for x amount of chapters against an onslaught of enemies, or a macguffin is hidden in a chest they must unlock on the far side of the map.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Beyond the map's music and the final boss' appearance, I tend to find most final maps forgettable in a gameplay sense. The only novelty is usually seeing this big health bar with (usually) an unknown amount of HP to drain with your army at the peak of their performance. But when every game ends that way, the appeal can wear thin, and I often find myself preferring the maps be proper maps in addition to that final boss encounter. FE7, 8, 10 just sort of plop you in front of the big bad with infinite spawning enemies showing up on top of you. In a sense the game has warp skipped you without you having any say in the encounter. Equally frustrating is final map boss fights not allowing you to save beforehand.

My favorite final map in the series is Silver Snow's in Three Houses, and I wrote about its design recently: 

Another final map I remember loving was Echoes. It was a lot of fun strategizing which of the super powerful opponents you should take out. Summoners are an obvious nuisance, but the monsters that already exist on the field perpetually split apart into more copies, so they take priority too. It's a lot of carving out safe spaces for units to advance and making sure everybody is healthy when the megaquake is coming.

So I guess if I had to bullet point what I like in a final map:

  • make sure it's not just a boss fight on its own
  • have a lot of powerful, unique enemies that get the player to stress about what needs to die first.
  • make the boss have unique abilities outside of combat that you must plan around.
  • When it comes to infinite spawning enemies, give the player a a properly balanced choice in whether they should fight or flight the situation. In any non-final map, infinite spawning enemies would be a map design nightmare since the player would be permitted to farm levels. But since this is a final map, the player would realize the end is now within reach.
  • have elements of multiple map objectives. Like the player being placed in a situation where they can't yet harm the boss, so they must defend for x amount of chapters against an onslaught of enemies, or a macguffin is hidden in a chest they must unlock on the far side of the map.

I find Rhea far too bulky and not dangerous enough to really give Silver Snow's ending that much credit. After you wipe out every other enemy on the map you're just laying into her turn after turn until she eventually goes down. I think of Three Houses final maps I liked Azure Moon best. Mainly for the reinforcements that spawn from both sides infinitely putting you in a situation where you have to deal with them before they overwhelm you while still having enough man power left to properly put a dent in Edelgard. Although that's the one I played on Maniac while the others I played on hard, so maybe those reinforcements aren't as dangerous as they posed for me (then again I was using New Game+ buffs while playing Maniac so that might cancel each other out).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has there ever been a good final map in Fire Emblem?

I think FE6 had a pretty good one, but FE9 had a terrible one.

In FE9, you have a regular map with a really annoying boss. It's an attempt to use Final Fantasy boss design instead of Fire Emblem chapter design, which is bad because it's a Fire Emblem game.

In FE6, the real final map is the penultimate map. You have to seize multiple thrones and while warp is useful it doesn't trivialize the map. You have several elaborate movement options to press forward. The boss can be taken on by a wide variety of characters. Unlike the Tellius games, you don't need to use one specific character and one specific weapon for anything other than a different ending, and its trivially easy to do so at that. The real difficulty comes from the powerful enemies you have to both charge through and outrun.

In other words, FE6 presents the player a "Final Map" as its ultimate challenge, while FE9 attempts to present a "Final Boss" as its ultimate challenge. The latter approach is utterly broken because it is the map as a whole, not individual enemies, which comprise Fire Emblem challenges and make them interesting.

A good final map is nothing more than a good map that happens to be the last in the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Has there ever been a good final map in Fire Emblem?

I think FE6 had a pretty good one, but FE9 had a terrible one.

In FE9, you have a regular map with a really annoying boss. It's an attempt to use Final Fantasy boss design instead of Fire Emblem chapter design, which is bad because it's a Fire Emblem game.

In FE6, the real final map is the penultimate map. You have to seize multiple thrones and while warp is useful it doesn't trivialize the map. You have several elaborate movement options to press forward. The boss can be taken on by a wide variety of characters. Unlike the Tellius games, you don't need to use one specific character and one specific weapon for anything other than a different ending, and its trivially easy to do so at that. The real difficulty comes from the powerful enemies you have to both charge through and outrun.

In other words, FE6 presents the player a "Final Map" as its ultimate challenge, while FE9 attempts to present a "Final Boss" as its ultimate challenge. The latter approach is utterly broken because it is the map as a whole, not individual enemies, which comprise Fire Emblem challenges and make them interesting.

A good final map is nothing more than a good map that happens to be the last in the game.

Binding Blade? That's like the worst final map. It's just a boring slog from one section to the other. The dragons aren't even that impressive unless your purposely ignoring the legendary weapons. They can also be very safely choke pointed because it's nothing but narrow corridors. They could at least make it so you need to backtrack on yourself from different thrones, so the dragons running up your ass can't just be ignored (a bit like the Ice Temple in Mystery of the Emblem). I actually struggle to think of how a final map could be worse than the Dragon Temple (well without being, well Idoun's map which is so bare bones and easy it's ignored). It's both easy and uneventful. And neither Yahn nor Idoun present any sort of challenge (Mudrock is the true final boss of Binding Blade's gameplay).

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Binding Blade? That's like the worst final map. It's just a boring slog from one section to the other. The dragons aren't even that impressive unless your purposely ignoring the legendary weapons. They can also be very safely choke pointed because it's nothing but narrow corridors.

The dragons get torn apart by legendary weapons but also kill most of your units in 1-2 hits. The movement is boring if you approach it like a weak loser, but real champions approach the final map with staves and 14 move rescue chains. It's a creative exercise rife with potential for optimization.

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And neither Yahn nor Idoun present any sort of challenge

See, this is dumb.

"Final bosses" in Fire Emblem games tend to be bad because we want them to be hard or epic instead of the map they appear in. How exactly is sitting around wailing on one guy hard or epic? It's not, it never will be, it's a complete and utter fools errand to look at the final chapter of a Fire Emblem game and say "I want a cool final boss" because Fire Emblem isn't about fighting individual powerful enemies, it's about fighting armies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The dragons get torn apart by legendary weapons but also kill most of your units in 1-2 hits. The movement is boring if you approach it like a weak loser, but real champions approach the final map with staves and 14 move rescue chains. It's a creative exercise rife with potential for optimization.

See, this is dumb.

"Final bosses" in Fire Emblem games tend to be bad because we want them to be hard or epic instead of the map they appear in. How exactly is sitting around wailing on one guy hard or epic? It's not, it never will be, it's a complete and utter fools errand to look at the final chapter of a Fire Emblem game and say "I want a cool final boss" because Fire Emblem isn't about fighting individual powerful enemies, it's about fighting armies.

You're really advocating that The Truth of the Legend is good because you can warp skip it? The fact that you feel the need to warp skip the level rather than actually play it I think is a testament to how it's not actually all that well designed at all. Warp skip strategies can be fun (especially in Radiant Dawn where we have shove, smite and a flier that can use warp), but if I'm playing a chapter and wanting to press a button to just end it immediately, then I don't really class that as fun.

A cool final boss isn't a requisite (see me complaining about Rhea above), but I would also enjoy a boss that doesn't go down in a single round of combat too.  As I've said, my favorite final map in the series is Tharcia's which also has a final boss that goes down like a chump (though surprisingly not as easily as Idoun or Yahn despite his infamy). What does The Truth of the Legend that An Undying Oath doesn't? They both have multiple sieze points, only instead of being a progressive one after another in a linear part, Thracia gives them all at once surrounded by threatening enemies with terrain that influences the very potent Magic stat. You'll want to be using warp in Thracia too, but it'll be to strategergize around by passing opening doors and rescuing units after sending them on an attack instead of just trying to ignore the map entirely.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of the games I've played at least, my favourites are 

Cindered Shadows: Yeah, this is a weird pick, but I just had so much fun with it. I guess it's more the thematic touch, plus the chaos of the boss warping everyone around, but I legitimately enjoyed this map

FE7: Moreso the morphs + Nergal than the Fire Dragon, but I just count them both as the final map. Anyway, I see this final map as one of the few exceptions to the idea that FE is at its best when fighting whole armies- making the map like a boss gauntlet with familiar faces from the game that are much, much stronger than normal enemies made it much harder than any other map in the game, and the difficulty felt legitimately rewarding to me, at least

Echoes: Twilight of the Gods carries this. That and the way the map is structured makes it feel like you're checking off a list of goals: Those dread fighters + Gold Knight are gone, check. Alm and Celica's forces are reunited, check. Jedah is dead, check. We've pushed up and killed both of the witch cantors, check. Now it's just Duma and his eyeball thingos. I enjoy that kind of structure- the biggest issue with the map is the damn swamp. Like, did we really need that?

So I guess I'd say overall the thematic feel of maps + some kind of gimmick to differentiate it from other maps in the game make a final map stand out to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I find Rhea far too bulky and not dangerous enough to really give Silver Snow's ending that much credit. After you wipe out every other enemy on the map you're just laying into her turn after turn until she eventually goes down.

lol, you make it sound like routing that map takes just a few turns. Remember that the map isn't just the fight with Rhea, it's how you get to her and that decisions about whether to deal with the reinforcement white beasts coming from behind, or facing a horde of the game's toughest enemies across 10-15 turns. 

Quote

I think of Three Houses final maps I liked Azure Moon best. Mainly for the reinforcements that spawn from both sides infinitely putting you in a situation where you have to deal with them before they overwhelm you while still having enough man power left to properly put a dent in Edelgard. Although that's the one I played on Maniac while the others I played on hard, so maybe those reinforcements aren't as dangerous as they posed for me (then again I was using New Game+ buffs while playing Maniac so that might cancel each other out).

That map's reinforcements can be halted completely by parking a unit on their spawn point. And it's just two spawn points. Your physic healer probably didn't need to be too close to do their job in the first place, so you can prevent reinforcements from spawning behind you by leaving somebody behind. According to the wiki, they'll also be halted permanently by routing all the enemies in the throne room and central room besides Edelgard and her bishops. They also don't start spawning until 2/3 of the way into the map unlike Silver Snow's where they begin from the very first enemy phase.  I didn't play Azure Moon's finale on my maddening run of Silver Snow, but besides the swap of the boss character, that map plays extremely similar as Silver Snow's chapter 19. The obvious strategy is to head up the right or left side while watching siege tome ranges. Deal with the reinforcements tile directly in front of you, then work your way to edelgard. Nothing in the map causes enemies in other rooms to stop standing around and come after you.

Definitely not the worst finale in the game though. That honor goes to Verdant Wind. The map where all of the toughest enemies are totally stationary and waiting to be sniped by your units for free and the reinforcements are pitifully easy to stop before they ever start spawning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

Of the games I've played at least, my favourites are 

Cindered Shadows: Yeah, this is a weird pick, but I just had so much fun with it. I guess it's more the thematic touch, plus the chaos of the boss warping everyone around, but I legitimately enjoyed this map

FE7: Moreso the morphs + Nergal than the Fire Dragon, but I just count them both as the final map. Anyway, I see this final map as one of the few exceptions to the idea that FE is at its best when fighting whole armies- making the map like a boss gauntlet with familiar faces from the game that are much, much stronger than normal enemies made it much harder than any other map in the game, and the difficulty felt legitimately rewarding to me, at least

Echoes: Twilight of the Gods carries this. That and the way the map is structured makes it feel like you're checking off a list of goals: Those dread fighters + Gold Knight are gone, check. Alm and Celica's forces are reunited, check. Jedah is dead, check. We've pushed up and killed both of the witch cantors, check. Now it's just Duma and his eyeball thingos. I enjoy that kind of structure- the biggest issue with the map is the damn swamp. Like, did we really need that?

So I guess I'd say overall the thematic feel of maps + some kind of gimmick to differentiate it from other maps in the game make a final map stand out to me.

I think the Swamp is necessary. If it weren't there rushing forward towards Jedah would happen too easily. It helps to slow down your pace so Alm and Celica reunite rather than Celica just dealing with everything herself. THat being said I think some reinforcements could have been called for as the swamp does tend to leave half your units waiting around during the secocnd half while you just send your strong units north.

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

lol, you make it sound like routing that map takes just a few turns. Remember that the map isn't just the fight with Rhea, it's how you get to her and that decisions about whether to deal with the reinforcement white beasts coming from behind, or facing a horde of the game's toughest enemies across 10-15 turns. 

 

Oh that wasn't my intention. The rest of the map is good, I just feel Rhea herself lets the final part of it down by being little more than a massive wall.

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

That map's reinforcements can be halted completely by parking a unit on their spawn point. And it's just two spawn points. Your physic healer probably didn't need to be too close to do their job in the first place, so you can prevent reinforcements from spawning behind you by leaving somebody behind. According to the wiki, they'll also be halted permanently by routing all the enemies in the throne room and central room besides Edelgard and her bishops. They also don't start spawning until 2/3 of the way into the map unlike Silver Snow's where they begin from the very first enemy phase.  I didn't play Azure Moon's finale on my maddening run of Silver Snow, but besides the swap of the boss character, that map plays extremely similar as Silver Snow's chapter 19. The obvious strategy is to head up the right or left side while watching siege tome ranges. Deal with the reinforcements tile directly in front of you, then work your way to edelgard. Nothing in the map causes enemies in other rooms to stop standing around and come after you.

Definitely not the worst finale in the game though. That honor goes to Verdant Wind. The map where all of the toughest enemies are totally stationary and waiting to be sniped by your units for free and the reinforcements are pitifully easy to stop before they ever start spawning.

I'm pretty sure the wiki was wrong about the reinforcements stopping if you clean out the throne room, at least the ones coming from east and west of the throne room itself. Maybe it stops some reinforcements somewhere else on the map. Parking a unit on their spawn tile probably does work (as far as design goes it shouldn't though) but I found the enemies a bit too powerful to deal with to get someone to the spawn point without committing too many resources towards a singular goal (but hey, making that choice is part of good game design too). Though once again I'm judging by theri maddening strength, they could be far easier to deal with on other difficulties. While I'm here though, talking only about the final part of the map does neglect the other parts. I like how you're struggling to get out of the begging area and how you gradually need to control the center room and deal with threats on the both the left (demonic beasts) and right (the Agrathan with some pretty powerful long range magic). Edelgard taking pot shots at you was a nice idea, but in practice her attacks lull a bit on the weak side, which is enivtable since it'd be way too unfair if she were stronger. I think they should have reduced her range and increased her damage a bit so she mainly only targeted the center room and not the starting area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Has there ever been a good final map in Fire Emblem?

This is about the size of it. Other than FE11 maybe, I can't really think of an FE game that had a really solid, challenging final map that was memorable to me.

I would say that a good final map is not a good map because of any one specific reason, but because of a good combination of the overall layout of the map itself, the strength of the enemies, and the necessary strategy required to beat it.

For example, FE13's final map is an open arena on Grima's back. There's no real strategy to it apart from rushing Grima and largely ignoring the other enemies. FE9's final map is better, but it's still a mostly open arena type of level, and Ashnard is a pushover on normal (Ike counters, heal him, repeat until dead).

FE11 has a pretty good final map, actually. It has challenging enemies, an interesting layout, and a tough boss. It's probably one of the best I can think of right now.

FE7's isn't bad either, but its challenge comes more from the enemies and bosses than anything else. It's a boss rush into two more bosses. Not particularly creative, especially since the final boss can be cheesed so easily if you know what you're doing.

Edited by twilitfalchion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think story significance is the most important thing. The multi level endgame of Radiant Dawn is by far the best final map to me because it really does feel like the ultimate culmination of an epic story. My only issue with it is all the undesirable required unit deployments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The dragons get torn apart by legendary weapons but also kill most of your units in 1-2 hits. The movement is boring if you approach it like a weak loser, but real champions approach the final map with staves and 14 move rescue chains. It's a creative exercise rife with potential for optimization.

It isn't about being a weak loser, it's about not being a know-it-all elitist who realized Boots are infinitely buyable in this game and actually uses Warp and gives any care about turn counts.

A normal player definitely isn't going to see what you see in this Exposition Dump and War Dragons final battle.

 

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

"Final bosses" in Fire Emblem games tend to be bad because we want them to be hard or epic instead of the map they appear in. How exactly is sitting around wailing on one guy hard or epic? It's not, it never will be, it's a complete and utter fools errand to look at the final chapter of a Fire Emblem game and say "I want a cool final boss" because Fire Emblem isn't about fighting individual powerful enemies, it's about fighting armies.

And on this, I partly agree with you. Because FE isn't made for 1 v. 1 duels, final battles should be layers of strategy (culminating in the exposure and defeat of a decently strong foe I would add).

But I where I disagree again, is that Ashera and even Anankos (but not the BK duel in either PoR or RD) are both more sophisticated battles than what is offered in FE6, and FE7 and Thracia are better as well. Taking down Auras, Anankos limbs, clearing out the rooms of Morphs and Deadlords, is more strategy to the average person than a straight line of Roy squatting on chairs to talk to and then kill Jahn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FE11 Endgame is the pinnacle of final levels in the series for me (or would be if you couldn't warpskip it so easily) It's amazing how a level designed in 1990 still manages to be very interesting with the doors and such. And a great way to make levels more difficult is to split up your army and that's exactly what this level does to an extreme extent.

It has it all if you play on H5, really brutally equipped enemies, loads of reinforcements, and one of, if not the most busted final boss ever seen in a fire emblem game. How exactly does Medeus have the same speed as a capped swordmaster? something we will never know. 

I recently finished my first successful H5 ironman of fe11 (after many failed attempts) and the amount of planning and careful use of statboosters and math it took to be prepared for this chapter was staggering. It is by far the hardest chapter in the game if you don't warp skip, and there are very few FE's that can claim that the final chapter is their hardest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, twilitfalchion said:

This is about the size of it. Other than FE11 maybe, I can't really think of an FE game that had a really solid, challenging final map that was memorable to me.

I would say that a good final map is not a good map because of any one specific reason, but because of a good combination of the overall layout of the map itself, the strength of the enemies, and the necessary strategy required to beat it.

For example, FE13's final map is an open arena on Grima's back. There's no real strategy to it apart from rushing Grima and largely ignoring the other enemies. FE9's final map is better, but it's still a mostly open arena type of level, and Ashnard is a pushover on normal (Ike counters, heal him, repeat until dead).

FE11 has a pretty good final map, actually. It has challenging enemies, an interesting layout, and a tough boss. It's probably one of the best I can think of right now.

FE7's isn't bad either, but its challenge comes more from the enemies and bosses than anything else. It's a boss rush into two more bosses. Not particularly creative, especially since the final boss can be cheesed so easily if you know what you're doing.

 

33 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

FE11 Endgame is the pinnacle of final levels in the series for me (or would be if you couldn't warpskip it so easily) It's amazing how a level designed in 1990 still manages to be very interesting with the doors and such. And a great way to make levels more difficult is to split up your army and that's exactly what this level does to an extreme extent.

It has it all if you play on H5, really brutally equipped enemies, loads of reinforcements, and one of, if not the most busted final boss ever seen in a fire emblem game. How exactly does Medeus have the same speed as a capped swordmaster? something we will never know. 

I recently finished my first successful H5 ironman of fe11 (after many failed attempts) and the amount of planning and careful use of statboosters and math it took to be prepared for this chapter was staggering. It is by far the hardest chapter in the game if you don't skip, and there are very few FE's that can claim that the final chapter is their hardest.

I can see the merit in Shadow Dragon, but I've rarely ever not skipped that chapter (and I've probably played through Shadow Dragon more than any other Fire Emblem, plus the two other games to have that chapter). I guess it's a combination of fatigue with the game at that point and the idea of "You have the warp staves, it's use them now or never".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FE11's final battle's design is alright, not sure if I'd call it great going off of memory, but such are FE maps in general. The random open and shut doors mandating keys for each group just in case isn't exactly a positive. It does have a final battle feel, and it surprisingly isn't bad for something as old as it is and without precedent in the SRPG genre, but I can't determine what I think of it beyond that.

-Medeus on H5 being able to double and ORKO Marth even when he has capped Spd feels plain wrong though, good to know New Mystery accounted for this via the BS's +2 Spd boost. The lord having a special gameplay advantage to make them a little better than others against the final boss (near/total exclusivity for harming/killing them is bad though) and able to act as a clutch (provided you trained them and they weren't screwed) is a nice narrative-gameplay tie-in, one which Awakening I'd say handled the best (though Robin should be able to deal normal damage to Grima with any weapon, and Grima is somewhat squishy).

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since I never said mine:

I think Echoes is mine, because it's the only final map in the series that actually feels like a test of everything you've dealt with over the main campaign. Terrors, cantors, witches, swamp tiles, earthquake, duma's gift, it's all there. The voiced special opening lines feel really good, and Twilight of the Gods stands out even among final map themes.

By far the worst part is Falchion having to deal the final blow, combined with his regen. More than 1 time I've ended up resetting because I'd end up at awkward HP thresholds where Falchion couldn't kill Duma but his ability where no one else could hurt him would kick in. 

Conquest could be really good but it's honestly too ridiculous on lunatic. Inevitable End + Staff Savant + Enfeeble is a bit too much, not to speak of the hex rod maids. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say there are three big things I like in a  final map

  1. It should be an actual map, with interesting features other than the boss.
  2. The boss should integrate what we are told in the story and shown in the gameplay.
  3. It should have a satisfying length, niether too easy to 1-2 turn, or overstaying it welcome

To that end I think I will go over the final maps of the games I have played, although I will save FE13, FE14, FE15, and FE16 for another post as this gets kinda long (plus with the multipart natures of FE14 and FE16 that makes this half of the final maps I have played). Truth be told there are quite a few penultimate maps that do a better job than final ones throughout the series, and when I feel that is the case I will mention them as well.

 

FE4 TLDR If you find the map sizes of FE4 palatable enough not to break point 3, it is the best final map in the series.

Spoiler

One of the best final maps in the series in my opinion, although there are a lot of people that dislike the epic scale of FE4 maps, and might find they overstay their welcome and violate point 3. I love this map, even if you consider just the point Belhala is seizable as the final map it still does a solid job with my three criteria. With that overview out of the way lets look at point 1, there is a map here with interesting enemies to face off with, and even gives you an optional objective to recruit and equip Julia by taking over Velthomer to make the final fight trivial. As for point 2, the mechanics of the Loptous tome, and the Nihil skill makes it mechanically impossible to hurt Julius without one of the legendary weapons, which fits in with the lore of the game, and he has battle and death quote with both his siblings for some extra story integration. As for point 3 it has a similar enough size and pace of other FE4 maps, so as long you are OK with that already it should holdup with point 3.

FE5 TLDR It does and excellent job with points 1 and 3, but the underwhelming nature of Veld undermines point 2 somewhat

Spoiler

This one has a great map, let down a little by Veld himself. For point 1 it does an excellent job, the way the army is split, with a need to take the six points, and an incentive to do so quickly (as reinforcements start spawning in if you take to long, and keep coming until you take the three points), makes for a good map, with the 6 deadlords being interesting bosses in their own right. As for point 2 Veld drops the ball entirely, he has only generic boss quotes, and while he has the Stone tome, it very clearly works differently from its last appearance in chapter 5, as here it is a siege tome, and there he had to teleport Eyvel close to use it (closer than he could even use it on this map). That being said the deadlords help a little here if you stumble upon their easter egg, where dead allies can become the faces of the deadlord, with Draco hinting at Eyvel being secretly Brigid. Finally for point 3, the need to take the 6 point quickly, and still having seize after taking down the relatively easy Veld gives a satisfying length to it.

FE6 TLDR The final map misses point 1 and 3 entirely, and even if we look at the penultimate map, it doesn't fit point 2 well, and isn't the best with 3 either.

Spoiler

The battle with Idoun I will go over quickly. There is just Idoun and some dragons that slowly spawn, which missed point 1 by a mile, and it can be one turned without the use of a warp which makes breaking point 3 easy. Now they do an OK job with point 2, it would have been nice if Fae or Roy had some kinda battle quote with her, but with the legendary weapons doing their thing, and with the extra incentive to use the Binding Blade as Hartmut did for the best ending it does enough to pass point 2 for me

Now if we look at the penultimate chapter it has a map at least. With multiple seize point to work through, and enemies pursuing from behind to keep pushing you forward this give me enough to work with to give it point 1. Now it drops the ball with point 2, Yahn is revealed to be one of the last real dragons, but his fight doesn't feel any different from the fights with all those inferior war dragons from before, and basic anti-dragon weapons, legendary or not are enough to crush this blowhard. Finally the 5 seize points that have to be done sequentially drags on a bit too long for me to consider it working well with point 3, if it were a bit less linear, or not as many it might have worked a bit better.

FE7 TLDR The final map misses all of the things I look for in a good final map, but the penultimate map does a solid job of making up for it.

Spoiler

The battle with the Dragon is one of the worst final maps in the series. It can be easily 1-2 turned (so missing point 3) with the Luna tome being better than the legendary weapons designed to fight the Dragons, (didn't even manage point 2) and the map that offers no threat other the Dragon unless you are dumb enough to enter stationary siege ranges (there goes point 1). Now the Penultimate map does so much better.

The penultimate map has an actual map (so point 1) with a gauntlet of tough boss like enemies before you have take down Nergal. Now you can open extra doors to speed up the process, but even then its not some trivial 1-2 to clear, and once Nergal arrives it doesn't take that long to finish it hitting point 3 just fine. Finally Nergal has a lot boss quotes to make his battle more relevant storywise, which helps him get some of point 2 out of the way.

FE8 TLDR The final map misses point 1 and 3 entirely, but if we look at the penultimate map it works alright, except that it invites point 3 with incentives to 1-3 turn it with warp skips.

Spoiler

The final battle here is just a boss fights basically, there is no real map, and can be trivially 1-2 turned without even trying. This trend in the GBA era is getting stale to talk about at this point. Now the penultimate map does a bit better, there is a bit of a map (at least enough to give it point 1), but its incredibly straight forward, and warpable, to the point that it ends too quickly to really reach that satisfying length for a map (missing point 3). Now Lyon has battle quotes with the twins, which is about the bare minimum need to reach point 2 for. Sorry this one is so short, I just find most of FE8 kinda boring.

FE9 TLDR The only place to really complain is point 3 as it is too easy to bait Ashnard into a 2 turn death.

Spoiler

Path of Radiance does alright, but could be better. Now first off there is a bit of a map here, with some side objectives like taking out Bryce for his speedwing, its nothing spectacular, but at least better than FE8's penultimate map, so clearly point 1 achieved. Now Ashnard's literal plot armor that means only Ike, Ena/Nasir, or the "royal" Laguz you call in can damage him is rather hamfisted, but they have an explanation that works with the plot (goddess blessed armor needing blessed weapons, or particularly potent Laguz to penetrate), and he has plenty of boss conversation to round him out, which is enough for a solid rating on point 2. It runs into some issues in point 3, as it really is easy to 2-3 turn the map with Wrath-Resolve Ike or Ena.

FE10 TLDR The final map itself manages to miss point 1 entirely, and undermines point 2 by arbitrarily making Ike the only one able to land the killing blow. The Penultimate map fails point 1 miserably still, but if we extend our search a bit further, the Dheginsea map works best for what I look for in a final map, but could overstay its welcome if you don't bring a Royal Laguz.

Spoiler

Now the final battle of FE10 has the issue in the first point, as it is a boss fight rather than an actual map, but it is also convoluted enough that it manages to do well on point 3. Now point 2 is a bit controversial, as she has boss quotes, and her immunity towards non-blessed weapons point towards point 2, but the arbitrary restriction that Ike must land the final blow undermines a lot of it. If the last strike had to be performed by Yune possessed Micaiah I might have bought it, but Ike having to land the blow is utterly arbitrary; if Yune can power up Ike's strike for the final hit, why can't she do that with any of the other characters. Now the map before this is basically just a boss fight with Lehran, and surprisingly similar, but without the arbitrary point 2 issues. Now the map before it with the Dheginsea battle is the best final map they could shot for in this game, its an actual map so it reached the bare minimu of point 1, the Dheginsea battle has enough battle quote, and some extra mechanics (like him being unwilling to hurt his own son, him being blessed by the goddess and needing blessed weapons to hurt him) to reach point 2, although if you face that battle without bringing any of the Royal Laguz to the tower it can overstay its welcome, so conditionally missing point 3, which is better than the last two maps at least.

FE11 TLDR On the higher difficulties, the inability for Marth to face Medius without instantly dying due to his stat caps entirely undermines point 2, and the ubiquity of warp skipping in this game invites point 3 as well.

Spoiler

First off the final map of FE11 is an actual map, with the army split, and threats like ballista that you might want to take out as well as the boss, which is enough for point1. Now the higher difficulties of FE11 have a big issue with point 2, throughout the story we are told about the Falchion being the legendary weapon needed to take down Medeus, but when you get there an entirely capped Marth will be one rounded and game overed if he faces Medeus, making it in actuality one of the worst weapons to use against Medeus. Now this isn't me saying the Falchion should trivialize the boss, but it shouldn't be an almost instant gameover like that. Finally the potency and number of warp uses available leads to jumping Medeus with warped units, now he is tough enough that this is probably the weakest point 3 complaint I have made, but it does feel like you are encouraged to skip the vast majority of that final map.

FE12 TLDR While it fixed the issue with point 2 that its predecessor did, it doesn't quite reach my bare minimum for point 1 (but comes incredibly close), and heavily encourages 2 turning this map, but its also rather difficult to pull off on the higher difficulties, leading to both points 1 and 3 being a bit murky. The penultimate maps is a bit clearer

Spoiler

Now for FE12, it doesn't have much of a final map, with just a room that spawns dragon (very like FE6 or FE8's final maps), and a few turn walk towards Medeus, although you usually have to take on at least one turn of fighting the dragons before you can deal with Medeus thanks to the clerics. Now you need to either talk to the clerics, or kill them to prevent Medeus from eating one to revive, which makes it a bit more interesting, but the map is still incredibly barren. This make it the most engaging of the maps to clearly fail point 1, but I expect something that at least resembles a real map to play through. Now it fixed my main issue with point 2 before, by giving Marth +2 to all stats with the binding shield, so hitting Medeus with the Falchion isn't game over, but this map encourages 2 turning so heavily, and even without the warp on Lunatic, the rescue staff, and Again staffs gives you a means to do so without relying on crits. If you let the dragons ambush spawn you someone is dying, so winning on turn 2 is basically the only way to avoid a death on that map, which breaks point 3 fairly heavily, but it requires keeping a lot of resources available for the very end, and expert control over what happens in that first enemy phase to pull off, which really muddies the waters for point 3. I feel very conflicted about this map.

Now the penultimate map is a bit clearer cut, as it is an actual map, it even has some side objectives you can shoot for on the lower difficulties using the warp staff, which safely reaches point 1. For point 2, Gharnef is immune to all damage except Starlight, and has a battle quote or two, which is enough. Now for the third factor it can be kind cheesed by luring Gharnef away and seizing which makes factor three fail fairly hard on the lower difficulties (although pulling it off with the resources of Lunatic and above would be difficult), which makes a bit of a mixed bag.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Radiant Dawn I liked how everyone's positioning mattered when fighting Ashera (especially considering variable-effect tiles, and Blood Tide support). Ashera herself had a ton of HP, and I liked needing to get through the Auras to really damage her. On the flip side, the map was rather small, with no other enemies to make it interesting (aside from some rather pitiful Spirits).

In Revelation, I quite liked how the boss was split into multiple pieces - to beat him, you had to beat each one, which encouraged the player to break their army into subgroups. There were also (infinite, IIRC?) reinforcements, which I consider bad design on most maps (farming EXP), but good on the final (there's no game left to trivialize). Having said that, the map itself was rather vacant, with no interesting terrain, and the enemies weren't compelling.

In FE7, I thought Nergal makimg the player face something of a "Rogue's Gallery" was quite cool - and many of them were respectably strong. Nergal himself wasn't too much trouble, although his sprite and music were cool. In the next stage, I see what they were going for with the magic-users, but it's easy enough to stay out of their range (at least, sub-HHM). And I wasn't a fan of how the Fire Dragon disregarded Defense and Resistance (stats shouldn't just stop mattering at the finish line).

Anyway, I like having a final boss that's split into multiple pieces - Golden Deer kind of did this, with the "Ten Elites" effect, but you could trivialize Nemesis regardless. I also like seeing variable terrain, and reinforcements that discourage you from playing slowly. And I prefer there not to be a requirement that the boss be beaten by a "super special person", mostly so I don't get softlocked on my challenge playthrough where I refuse to train the main Lord. Finally, chests on the final map are dumb (unless they contain a collectible that has significance outside the campaign itself).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Boomhauer007 said:

Since I never said mine:

I think Echoes is mine, because it's the only final map in the series that actually feels like a test of everything you've dealt with over the main campaign. Terrors, cantors, witches, swamp tiles, earthquake, duma's gift, it's all there. The voiced special opening lines feel really good, and Twilight of the Gods stands out even among final map themes.

By far the worst part is Falchion having to deal the final blow, combined with his regen. More than 1 time I've ended up resetting because I'd end up at awkward HP thresholds where Falchion couldn't kill Duma but his ability where no one else could hurt him would kick in. 

Conquest could be really good but it's honestly too ridiculous on lunatic. Inevitable End + Staff Savant + Enfeeble is a bit too much, not to speak of the hex rod maids. 

To be fair to Duma, his protection to non Alm final blows is way better than every other boss that needs to be killed by a specific unit. It's a bit baffling they came up with the you can fight then with anyone until a certain point thing in the second game and then never repeated it (I guess Asher's kind of does?). It would have helped Ashnard a lot. I've never personally run into the issues you describe (did you not train Alm or something?) So from a design point I guess reducing it from the arbitrary number it is now to 1hp might be the best way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

In FE7, I thought Nergal makimg the player face something of a "Rogue's Gallery" was quite cool - and many of them were respectably strong. Nergal himself wasn't too much trouble, although his sprite and music were cool. In the next stage, I see what they were going for with the magic-users, but it's easy enough to stay out of their range (at least, sub-HHM). And I wasn't a fan of how the Fire Dragon disregarded Defense and Resistance (stats shouldn't just stop mattering at the finish line).

 

I liked that, Sain and Lyn got very high stats on my first Normal playthrough, to the point where they could kinda start curbstomping maps by themselves (Granted, it took well overt the half-way mark for this to happen.) however the Morph versions of old bosses were actually tough enough that I had to go back to proper tactics again, as Lyn/Sain would get absolutely destroyed if they took them on 1V1 so they were tough enough that I actually needed to have my entire army attack them together to safely bring them down.

 

Edited by Samz707
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking as someone who loves FE6 and keeps defending its perceived flaws:

Jahn's chapter is awful. Worst in the game, maybe. You have seven rooms that are functionally identical, so there's no evolving challenge, you just kill the same group of enemies over and over again. I guess outrunning the reinforcements is a remotely interesting task, but the map and enemy design of this chapter is just overall awful. No pressure, no feeling of imminent threat, no feeling of progression (since reaching one throne just unlocks the same old challenge), no variety. I guess it's a nice little power trip to one-round all those dragons? Gets old real fast though.

And the plot dump is paced so, so badly. A single fucking chapter where some completely new antagonist shows up and gives another version the ENTIRE FUCKING BACKSTORY? And no way of telling if he says the truth or not? Given how he reacts to tales of Arcadia despite Myrrh being right there, he might just be full of shit. Who knows?

--

Idoun's great, though. You get the same subversion as Hartmut did way back when he found Idoun - the fearsome Demon Dragon is actually just a young girl, not a raging monster. She's not the final boss of the game, Jahn was. (and now replace "the final boss" with "a fucking embarressment" and you still have a true statement)

--

I always though that Ashera is a well-designed last boss. Threatening even on her own, not easily cheeseable, but you still have a lot of tools at your disposal to deal with her quickly. Ike having to deal the final blow bothers me a bit, not as much as Ashnard being immune to most non-Ike sources of damage in PoR, though (he doesn't even have a personal connection to Ike! If anything, he has one to Elincia!).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For FE maps in general, one of the things that I enjoy the most is having multiple side objectives to pursue. It's more fun for me to try to come up with a plan to recuit a unit and open some treasure chests and keep some NPCs alive and meet a turn limit and kill an enemy commander than it is to plan for only killing the enemy commander. Side objectives don't really work well in final maps, though, because there isn't really any incentive to accomplish them. For the rest of the game, they can give rewards, like items, unit recruitment, bonus xp, whatever, but in the final map, you're typically past the point where that matters.

Outside of some sort of raking system or different endings based on how you complete the final level, I'm not really sure what the solution for that is. Maybe they could give instant bonuses that would help signifcantly in the final map itself? Like, what if in Path of Radiance, you didn't get the laguz royal automatically, but only through a side objective? Then maybe some other side objective could give a blessing to another unit of your choice so they could damage Ashnard, and maybe another one that would give you Urvan that could also be used to damage Ashnard, and so on? Would something like that work?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...