Reason to hate Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude.

[drattakbowser]

In my Opinion.

Edelgard , Dimitri and Claude : 

- Reason : Enemy students

If you side with 3 lord that you need to fight the students if you don't recruit them. Specifically in Edelgard path on all battle or Dimitri and Claude in Gronder Field. For the recap 11 students death in Edelgard and 13 students death in Dimitri and Claude.

- Edelgard : Death students

The responsibility of the students death is Edelgard whatever Bernadetta or the Blue Lions students and Golden Deer students in the Gronder Field all is because of Edelgard war. It's seem Edelgard do a hell with the students. Black eagle students is agree to stay with Byleth without Edelgard due she declared war.

- Dimitri : Beast personality

Dimitri cannot be learn in chapter 14 to 17. It's because he injured and he wants to become a monster like him. Dimitri love kill a massive military and he don't care Byleth and his students. Dimitri is the real target for a Imperial army. Blue lions students completely agree to side with Byleth without Dimitri because his beast personality anguish.

- Claude : Dangerous tactician

Claude use Golden Deer like a toy, he can't save his golden deer students specifically in Gronder Field and he is a coward after the battle, leave his students die in this honor battle. Claude attitude is very depressed or his students and leave Fodlan. The golden deer dislike Claude attitude and they agreed to side Byleth without Claude because his goals.

 

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Edelgard : Death students

The responsibility of the students death is Edelgard whatever Bernadetta or the Blue Lions students and Golden Deer students in the Gronder Field all is because of Edelgard war. It's seem Edelgard do a hell with the students. Black eagle students is agree to stay with Byleth without Edelgard due she declared war.

I mean, yeah. Edelgard is fully aware of how she'll be hated by others and that many people will die because of her war. But for her, if she doesn't stand up and fight, then countless more people will suffer in silence. With all the issues going around, it's basically stuck between a rock and a hard place.

6 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Dimitri : Beast personality

Dimitri cannot be learn in chapter 14 to 17. It's because he injured and he wants to become a monster like him. Dimitri love kill a massive military and he don't care Byleth and his students. Dimitri is the real target for a Imperial army. Blue lions students completely agree to side with Byleth without Dimitri because his beast personality anguish.

The annoying part is that Byleth is still following what Dimitri wants to do. Would have preferred if the story direction was actually able to have Byleth/Gilbert/Rodrigue actually steer Dimitri by using his lust for vengeance to help in their war effort.

I dunno why some people insist on defending his behavior and justifying that the story works fine as it does. No, it doesn't. If it was anyone but Byleth, then everyone in Dimitri's army would get slaughtered. I don't even mean this as an exaggeration. Silver Snow skipping Gronder confirms that Faerghus army was destroyed, and Dimitri dead. Even in AM, there's a soldier that accepts that going to Gronder was suicide, contrary to how in VW, the soldier felt confident that they could surely win at Gronder. 

Had they just focused on trying to steer Dimitri to help them liberate Faerghus so that they can fight Edelgard sooner, it'd help. But nope. What Dimitri says goes.

6 hours ago, drattakbowser said:

- Claude : Dangerous tactician

Claude use Golden Deer like a toy, he can't save his golden deer students specifically in Gronder Field and he is a coward after the battle, leave his students die in this honor battle. Claude attitude is very depressed or his students and leave Fodlan. The golden deer dislike Claude attitude and they agreed to side Byleth without Claude because his goals.

I'll be honest, it'd have helped if Claude was actually more sleazy and scummy. He really doesn't live up to being a schemer. They end up making him so docile that people think that he does nothing wrong, even though plenty of things about him indicate that his entire plan in Part 1 wasn't actually peaceful. Who covets a weapon known to be able to cleave mountains and destroy armies for purely peaceful purposes? 

I'd have preferred if we had gotten insight on what his entire plan in Part 1 was. 

[Ottservia]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I dunno why some people insist on defending his behavior and justifying that the story works fine as it does. No, it doesn't. If it was anyone but Byleth, then everyone in Dimitri's army would get slaughtered. I don't even mean this as an exaggeration. Silver Snow skipping Gronder confirms that Faerghus army was destroyed, and Dimitri dead. Even in AM, there's a soldier that accepts that going to Gronder was suicide, contrary to how in VW, the soldier felt confident that they could surely win at Gronder. 

That’s the point though... Dimitri’s entire arc is about him overcoming the grief, despair, regret, and frustration that his survivor’s guilt dragged him towards. The reason he isn’t able to overcome it in other routes is because Byleth isn’t by his side to be his light such is the same with Edelgard. Byleth is their light. The one thing to keep them from diving headlong into darkest depths of despair. Without that light, they are lost and can’t find their way. They can’t stay true to themselves which is kinda the whole thematic through line of 3H’s story

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

That’s the point though... Dimitri’s entire arc is about him overcoming the grief, despair, regret, and frustration that his survivor’s guilt dragged him towards. The reason he isn’t able to overcome it in other routes is because Byleth isn’t by his side to be his light such is the same with Edelgard. Byleth is their light. The one thing to keep them from diving headlong into darkest depths of despair. Without that light, they are lost and can’t find their way. They can’t stay true to themselves which is kinda the whole thematic through line of 3H’s story

Yeah, thing about that is that all Byleth did was... stand there, not accomplishing anything really for the most part, until that one convenient time for Rodrigue to make a crack at Dimitri by dying in his arms, and then have a rain scene. It's not really good if it's just a "right place, right time" moment here. Byleth's presence being just there for that one single moment doesn't help. If anything, if Byleth actually took more active stance against Dimitri's aggressive behavior and actually tried to direct him using his lust for vengeance, it would have served more to show Byleth playing more of a role than just being there as an enabler. 

[Anathaco]

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The annoying part is that Byleth is still following what Dimitri wants to do. Would have preferred if the story direction was actually able to have Byleth/Gilbert/Rodrigue actually steer Dimitri by using his lust for vengeance to help in their war effort.

I dunno why some people insist on defending his behavior and justifying that the story works fine as it does. No, it doesn't. If it was anyone but Byleth, then everyone in Dimitri's army would get slaughtered. I don't even mean this as an exaggeration. Silver Snow skipping Gronder confirms that Faerghus army was destroyed, and Dimitri dead. Even in AM, there's a soldier that accepts that going to Gronder was suicide, contrary to how in VW, the soldier felt confident that they could surely win at Gronder. 

Had they just focused on trying to steer Dimitri to help them liberate Faerghus so that they can fight Edelgard sooner, it'd help. But nope. What Dimitri says goes

Now I’m just imagining Gilbert telling Dimitri that Edelgard is actually at the kingdom capital and he just immediately changes his plans. Problem solved.

In all seriousness, I assumed the fact that nobody (except Felix) really bothered to confront Dimitri was intentional, to show that they were incompetent when it came to handling Dimitri and his trauma. In the end, they couldn’t help him, he just needed a reason to move on with his life, and the only way for that to happen was for him to hear from Rodrigue- someone who died for him, like his parents and friends- that his only obligation as a survivor is to live. That’s how I looked at it, anyway.

Granted, it could have definitely been handled better, especially in scenes like the end of Gronder, but I think the arc itself is valid.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, thing about that is that all Byleth did was... stand there, not accomplishing anything really for the most part, until that one convenient time for Rodrigue to make a crack at Dimitri by dying in his arms, and then have a rain scene. It's not really good if it's just a "right place, right time" moment here. Byleth's presence being just there for that one single moment doesn't help. If anything, if Byleth actually took more active stance against Dimitri's aggressive behavior and actually tried to direct him using his lust for vengeance, it would have served more to show Byleth playing more of a role than just being there as an enabler

This argument can be made for Edelgard and Claude as well though- especially Claude. It’s not an inherent problem with Dimitri as much as it is a problem with Byleth, I feel.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Anathaco

[Julian Solo]

The church has its own army. The army always rushes to save Rhea. Which is exactly the reason given in Azure Moon why they head to Grondors in Azure Moon. It is literally stated multiple times.

The church doesn’t take part in Grondors in ss because it happened the same month the resistance army takes the bridge. There men were tired. The church then defeats the empire by itself and the slithers after Grondors happens anyway.
 

The kingdom army and the church has no problem defeating the Dukedom army backed up by the slithers and the empire right afterwords. Then easily retake the silver Madan.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

This argument can be made for Edelgard and Claude as well though- especially Claude. It’s not an inherent problem with Dimitri as much as it is a problem with Byleth, I feel.

I would argue that Edelgard's is different, in that everything was built up in Byleth making a choice to side with Edelgard. Everything about choosing Edelgard is from Edelgard dropping many hints about how the time will come when Byleth will have to make a choice, how he might one day have to confront his students in battle, and how she is trying to get him to understand her worldview, till Byleth gets the power of the goddess, when she feels it becomes impossible for that. But everything was riding on Byleth making a choice, and how that choice really set the stage for Edelgard changing in a way that affected the entire story. Byleth plays a serious role for Edelgard, everything riding on a choice that's been built up.

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

In all seriousness, I assumed the fact that nobody (except Felix) really bothered to confront Dimitri was intentional, to show that they were incompetent when it came to handling Dimitri and his trauma. In the end, they couldn’t help him, he just needed a reason to move on with his life, and the only way for that to happen was for him to hear from Rodrigue- someone who died for him, like his parents and friends- that his only obligation as a survivor is to live. That’s how I looked at it, anyway.

Granted, it could have definitely been handled better, especially in scenes like the end of Gronder, but I think the arc itself is valid.

See, it's the fact that everyone else is being incompetent that makes the entire story about Azure Moon cringey. If you don't really like Dimitri or you don't find his journey really well written, it overall hurts the rest of the characters. Why are any of them there? They don't believe in Dimitri, but they are choosing to ride on Byleth on the case that it will all work out?

And the fact that it has to be Rodrigue, a character that you really only knew a handful of times, isn't playable, isn't really developed, it doesn't really work. Again, hardly anyone cares about Rodrigue himself. People are more likely praising him only because of how much Dimitri reacts. Which, again, relies on the case of needing to like Dimitri and his story. 

 

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, thing about that is that all Byleth did was... stand there, not accomplishing anything really for the most part, until that one convenient time for Rodrigue to make a crack at Dimitri by dying in his arms, and then have a rain scene. It's not really good if it's just a "right place, right time" moment here. Byleth's presence being just there for that one single moment doesn't help. If anything, if Byleth actually took more active stance against Dimitri's aggressive behavior and actually tried to direct him using his lust for vengeance, it would have served more to show Byleth playing more of a role than just being there as an enabler. 

I mean I’m not saying it’s particularly well handled. It’s honestly very poorly handled if you ask me(much like the rest of 3H’s story honestly but that’s a topic for another time) but to criticize the story for Byleth being the only one able to snap Dimitri out of it is again just missing the point of what the story sets out to accomplish 

[Anathaco]

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

See, it's the fact that everyone else is being incompetent that makes the entire story about Azure Moon cringey. If you don't really like Dimitri or you don't find his journey really well written, it overall hurts the rest of the characters. Why are any of them there? They don't believe in Dimitri, but they are choosing to ride on Byleth on the case that it will all work out?

And the fact that it has to be Rodrigue, a character that you really only knew a handful of times, isn't playable, isn't really developed, it doesn't really work. Again, hardly anyone cares about Rodrigue himself. People are more likely praising him only because of how much Dimitri reacts. Which, again, relies on the case of needing to like Dimitri and his story. 

The Azure Moon cast follows Dimitri because he’s their rightful king, and some of them probably hope that him getting his revenge will be enough to snap him out of it. It seems to me to be a kind of misplaced loyalty and general concern for Dimitri- plus fighting with him and the church is the best way to restore their home kingdom. You could probably make some poignant statement about how their siding with Dimitri even in boar mode is reflective of the misguided ideals of Faerghus in general, but I won’t claim to know enough to actually commit to that interpretation.

Thats true about nobody giving a damn about Rodrigue- the player doesn’t know him, but we do get to see a bit of his relationship with Dimitri, even a bit pre-timeskip (I think, it’s been a while since I played Azure Moon). We can see how much Rodrigue meant to Dimitri, and vice versa,  even if we don’t care about Rodrigue ourselves. The scene could have been written better to leave more of an impact on the player (and not have 2 pretty big plot holes/contrivances), but I believe the scene is believable in terms of how it begins Dimitri’s redemption. You are right in that your enjoyment of the story hinges on your investment in Dimitri as a character though- that’s what happens when a story focuses so heavily on a single character. My argument is just that Dimitri’s behaviour and arc makes sense given the version of AM we were given.

[zuibangde]

I love how every time a topic that compares the lords appear, Edelgard fans always comes out immediately to talk about how much better Edelgard's route is and how nonsensical Dimitri's is. Both routes could be handled better and people have given many many reasons on why Edelgard and Dimitri are likable/unlikable. Don't worry, admitting that Edelgard/Dimitri/Claude isn't as well written won't revoke your 'I love (Lord Name)' membership. 

I'll say that I feel like Edelgard and Dimitri have way more similarities than people think and many criticism towards one can also be applied to another.

[Crysta]

47 minutes ago, zuibangde said:

I'll say that I feel like Edelgard and Dimitri have way more similarities than people think and many criticism towards one can also be applied to another.

Such as...?

[zuibangde]

5 hours ago, Crysta said:

Such as...?

As an example: Both Dimitri and Edelgard suffered from a traumatic past and developed a mental illness. Dimitri acts out in an explosive manner while Edelgard's is much more subdued. It's clear why Dimitri isn't mentally stable enough to lead effectively so I'm not going to get into that. I'd also argue that Edelgard isn't as good of a leader as what the game/people portrays her to be. I find her to be paranoid, stubborn and lacking in empathy (similar to Dimitri when he had his breakdown). Similar to Dimitri, she doesn't seem to be aware that her actions will have consequences. And if she is aware of it, she doesn't really care because it's 'part of war'.

Both of them have a ridiculously loyal group of 'friends' that are willing to follow them to help them reach their goal. I don't find it believable that characters like Bernadetta, Dorothea and Linhardt are truly invested into the war for themselves. Feels more like they're doing it for Byleth and Edelgard. 

At the end of the day, Edelgard and Dimitri are willing to go all out to accomplish their goals. It's just that the goals are different. They both have flaws (personality + the writing for their routes generally) and it's really annoying to act like one route/person is objectively 'better' than the other. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by zuibangde

[drattakbowser]

I have finished Silver Snow 6 times you know ?

[drattakbowser]

1 hour ago, zuibangde said:

As an example: Both Dimitri and Edelgard suffered from a traumatic past and developed a mental illness. Dimitri acts out in an explosive manner while Edelgard's is much more subdued. It's clear why Dimitri isn't mentally stable enough to lead effectively so I'm not going to get into that. I'd also argue that Edelgard isn't as good of a leader as what the game/people portrays her to be. I find her to be paranoid, stubborn and lacking in empathy (similar to Dimitri when he had his breakdown). Similar to Dimitri, she doesn't seem to be aware that her actions will have consequences. And if she is aware of it, she doesn't really care because it's 'part of war'.

Both of them have a ridiculously loyal group of 'friends' that are willing to follow them to help them reach their goal. I don't find it believable that characters like Bernadetta, Dorothea and Linhardt are truly invested into the war for themselves. Feels more like they're doing it for Byleth and Edelgard. 

At the end of the day, Edelgard and Dimitri are willing to go all out to accomplish their goals. It's just that the goals are different. They both have flaws (personality + the writing for their routes generally) and it's really annoying to act like one route/person is objectively 'better' than the other. 

And Claude ?

[Crysta]

"They both have trauma" is pretty broad and they handle it in very different (and significant) ways. 

CF and AM show that Edelgard is cognizant of the consequences of her actions but has come to the conclusion that the short term suffering her war will inevitably cause is worth it versus the long term suffering that the Church has and will continue to incur if something isn't done about it. I'm genuinely at a loss at how you come up with that interpretation.

They both have flaws -- perfect characters are pretty boring -- but discussing how they're different and their degrees is pretty relevant to the topic at hand. It's also a fair way to assess routes/characters.

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Crysta

[drattakbowser]

Recap Killing Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude on my playthrough.

Crimson Flower : Claude

Have killing by Lysithea and Jeritza, have no regrets and increase Edelgard motivated to prove she is no fool.

Crimson Flower : Dimitri

He must be die because his vengeance against Edelgard, it's logical Edelgard kill Dimitri. Have killing by Edelgard.

Azure Moon : Edelgard

No regrets, she is very anguish against Dimitri so killing her is surely. Killing by Dimitri

Verdant Wind : Edelgard

Killing by Claude. It's logical too kill this route after all. No regrets.

Silver Snow : Edelgard 

Normally it's very dark to kill Edelgard in this route but me is satisfied to kill her because taunt me in the Goddess Tower and I agree Edelgard or me die in this battle. Killing by me and Lysithea.

[zuibangde]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

CF and AM show that Edelgard is cognizant of the consequences of her actions but has come to the conclusion that the short term suffering her war will inevitably cause is worth it versus the long term suffering that the Church has and will continue to incur if something isn't done about it.

She's aware of the consequences but she justifies it because she believes it's 'for the greater good'. Your summary is just a nicer way of packaging  a generally apathetic attitude towards the consequences of war. 

As evident by all four routes, not everyone is on board on her idea of what's best for Fodlan but when did she really care about what those people thought? It was either 'you're with me or against me' or 'you'll see what I did is for the greater good' and there was little to no middle ground. 

Anyways, I'm not arguing whether the war was right or wrong (since the purpose was to have a split opinion on it) but I think it's undeniable that she was mostly apathetic and distant from everyone as a result from her traumatic past and Byleth helped create a connection for her and other people. In that sense, a part of Byleth's role in Edelgard's route is the same as when he's with Dimitri which is to help them overcome the trauma and find human connection again.

[Rose482]

 

 

If there is anything FE16 did well, is that it gave good reasons to both like and dislike each lord. I do love to reflect on how my opinions changed from when I first played the game until now when it comes to the lords. I would say Claude is the character I keep having my opinion on go back and forth, that used to be Edelgard, but now it's Claude. I really like his personality, and the concept of his character, but I feel like the writing team didn't do him justice. I do wish he needed Byleth as much as Dimitri and Edelgard did, I think that would had brought out more of him in the second part of the game. 

Dimitri I thought would be boring before playing the game, but he quickly won me over after I got the chance to play it. My opinion on him hasn't changed since then. To see a lord so broken was...an interesting experience.  I do also think few things in his route could had been handled better, but that is something that could be said about every route in the game. His route was the most emotional to me in my opinion, and I like how different it is in compression to the other routes.

And then there's Edelgard...who I used to go from liking, to being mixed, to disliking, and then back to liking, every single day. I think I'm at a point now where I can confidently say that I'm mixed on her. I wish her route was handled differently. I feel like the way they did her route was both rushed and also handled in the most generic way they could have went about it. And while I am mixed on  Edelgard, I'm not afraid to say that I hate her fans  who can't understand that not everyone is going to be okay with her actions. Yes. some people hate Edelgard for starting a war, how STUPID of them. Now get over it.

11 hours ago, zuibangde said:

I love how every time a topic that compares the lords appear, Edelgard fans always comes out immediately to talk about how much better Edelgard's route is and how nonsensical Dimitri's is

Shhhh, don't call them out like that. Let them continue to live the "changing the system and taking down  the evil church" fantasy they love to live. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Rose482

[Crysta]

12 hours ago, zuibangde said:

She's aware of the consequences but she justifies it because she believes it's 'for the greater good'. Your summary is just a nicer way of packaging  a generally apathetic attitude towards the consequences of war. 

It's not apathy. Holding that position does not make someone inherently apathetic. Leaders make these decisions under this justification all the time, because it's their responsibility to.

12 hours ago, zuibangde said:

As evident by all four routes, not everyone is on board on her idea of what's best for Fodlan but when did she really care about what those people thought? It was either 'you're with me or against me' or 'you'll see what I did is for the greater good' and there was little to no middle ground.

This is arrogance and stubbornness, not apathy. This is also something ordinary, completely empathetic people do all the time on a lesser scale. It isn't helped by the fact that Rhea is not someone apt to budge: are we gonna contend she also doesn't have empathy/acknowledge consequences because of that?

12 hours ago, zuibangde said:

I think it's undeniable that she was mostly apathetic and distant from everyone as a result from her traumatic past and Byleth helped create a connection for her and other people. In that sense, a part of Byleth's role in Edelgard's route is the same as when he's with Dimitri which is to help them overcome the trauma and find human connection again.

Being emotionally distant also isn't being apathetic. It's very deniable because you haven't really proven she's apathetic, you're only very, very convinced that she is due to how you've perceived her actions.

And weren't you just complaining about people speaking as though their opinions are objective?

The idol worship is prevalent in all three routes, but Edelgard and Claude do not become radically different people with Byleth gone nor do they become radically different because of his presence. That distinction belongs to Dimitri alone, and I can't really blame anyone for being put off by it.

12 hours ago, Rose482 said:

Shhhh, don't call them out like that. Let them continue to live the "changing the system and taking down  the evil church" fantasy they love to live. 

It's one person lmao

Being passive aggressive like this is also a good way to signal how little interest there is in actually arguing in good faith, but you do you

Edited July 25, 2020 by Crysta

[Anathaco]

27 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The idol worship is prevalent in all three routes, but Edelgard and Claude do not become radically different people with Byleth gone nor do they become radically different because of his presence. That distinction belongs to Dimitri alone, and I can't really blame anyone for being put off by it.

I personally wouldn't say Dimitri becomes radically different inherently through Byleth, with or without. He's consistently nuts through AM (the first half, at least), VW and SS. The one time things go differently for him is CF, which is due to the fact that the coup didn't happen in that route. In order to compare Dimitri with Byleth and without Byleth, I'll compare AM to VW:

In VW, the coup happens and Dimitri loses his eye. I believe we're told that Dimitri was executed in VW, so presumably Dedue saved his life again there too. Sometime off screen he reunites with the other Blue Lions, Dedue and Gilbert, and they make their way to Gronder Field, where he dies trying to chase Edelgard while gravely wounded.

In AM he resides in the remains of Garreg Mach (I assume this happened long before the promise to show up there, considering there were reports of soldiers getting killed in that area long before that, I think) after the coup that cost him both his eye and Dedue. Gilbert, the Blue Lions, and eventually Dedue show up along the route, and he kills Randolph at Garreg Mach, causing Fleche to swear revenge- which of course leads to Rodrigue dying at Gronder. Before that happened though, he was about to go after Edelgard the same way he did in VW- the reason this didn't happen is because of Fleche attacking him. If we were to have an AM where Byleth didn't exist- i.e. Dimitri regrouped with the Blue Lions and the Church at Garreg Mach, the route would have played out much the same way, I feel. 

Anyway, tl;dr: Dimitri, personality-wise, in AM and VW is almost the same until after Gronder, and this was mainly spurred by the events that preceded it, not Byleth themselves- their main influence on Dimitri is (maybe) the promise to go back to Garreg Mach which lets most of AM happen, and the scene in the rain, which happened after, and as a direct cause of, Gronder. If I missed anything feel free to correct me.

(That was a bit long for a tl;dr)

If I were to compare this to Edelgard or Claude, I'd say Claude is basically the exact same in VW and AM. Off the top of my head I can't remember any distinct changes in Claude's story in VW compared to AM- he keeps the Alliance turned on each other to feign neutrality, he amasses his army at Gronder, and then the main change comes as a result of either his victory or defeat- which seems to be a result of Byleth/The Church, but that's not an issue with Claude so much as it is Byleth (its always Byleth).

With Edelgard I don't really know her route well enough to comment: I know that the coup is never instigated in CF, but I have no idea why that is. I know a lot of people say that Edelgard is more human and empathetic with Byleth around than without, but I don't know of any evidence for that other than like their supports I guess making her a bit more relatable. But yeah, I don't really know enough to fully comment here.

[Crysta]

4 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Anyway, tl;dr: Dimitri, personality-wise, in AM and VW is almost the same until after Gronder, and this was mainly spurred by the events that preceded it, not Byleth themselves- their main influence on Dimitri is (maybe) the promise to go back to Garreg Mach which lets most of AM happen, and the scene in the rain, which happened after, and as a direct cause of, Gronder. If I missed anything feel free to correct me.

There's a better argument to be made that Byleth has less of an influence on Dimitri in WC across all routes, but I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that Byleth was his teacher in AM/WC is what makes him susceptible towards accepting Byleth's aid or advice at all... but that's more speculative than explicitly spelled out. Byleth being there post-TS definitely changes the trajectory of how the events, and how Dimitri as a character unfolds.

Gronder was the catalyst, but Byleth being there and talking him down through the rain is what triggers the actual change and stops Dimitri from continuing to just chase after Edelgard... which is exactly what he still wanted to do. And that attempt at introspection, again, is probably rooted in Byleth being his teacher in WC.

18 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

If I were to compare this to Edelgard or Claude, I'd say Claude is basically the exact same in VW and AM. Off the top of my head I can't remember any distinct changes in Claude's story in VW compared to AM

Yeah Claude doesn't really covet Byleth's attention or advice to the same degree. It's probably a big reason why people don't find him as compelling as the other two outside of just not having much of a character arc in general (though I'd argue Edelgard's is basically done after the TS lol).

22 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

With Edelgard I don't really know her route well enough to comment: I know that the coup is never instigated in CF, but I have no idea why that is. I know a lot of people say that Edelgard is more human and empathetic with Byleth around than without, but I don't know of any evidence for that other than like their supports I guess making her a bit more relatable. But yeah, I don't really know enough to fully comment here.

The changes between CF Edelgard and the other Edelgards are actually mostly inferred instead of actually explained or witnessed in the story. In CF, Byleth is someone she clearly wants to admire and trust, so it's natural to assume he may be the deciding factor absent of any other variables. She still does this in the other routes, but Byleth just reaffirms that he's not on her side and things just go according to plan. In CF she doesn't levy her forces to the same extent she does in the other routes in spite of having a bigger reason to (the Church/the Kingdom are still on the board in CF). I'm not sure how realistic it actually is assuming she doesn't know that Byleth is alive and will return, and the whole reason why she's allied with the Slitherers is because she feels she needs them versus the Church.

And I'm not sure why she doesn't just rick roll the Alliance in non-CF routes while Byleth is sleeping.

Best to just not think too hard about it, I guess.

  

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think in general the differences between the lords' personalities on different route are often exaggerated; Edelgard and Claude are always fundamentally the same people, you just see more of them and/or see them in a more favourable light on their own route, Edelgard in particular. It turns out that people are nicer to their friends and allies!

Dimitri is the most different but even then that's mostly Crimson Flower, where the major trigger for his AM/VW/SS behaviour does not occur. That is, CF lacks Cornelia's coup, the resulting (apparent) death of Dedue, and Dimitri living on his own in the wilderness for years after. I basically agree with @Anathaco that AM/VW Dimitri are essentially the same character, until his life is cut short at Gronder on non-AM routes.

On the original topic of this thread, I think hating all three of the lords would be pretty sad, and I can't imagine enjoying this game if you feel that way.

[Crysta]

Eh, I'm willing to concede the point and admit that there's a whole lot of other things that factor into Dimitri's development that don't necessarily hinge on Byleth thank god

You can probably manage to hate all the lords and still enjoy the story if you're an SS stan and they all die, which... might be what the author is getting at lol

[vikingsfan92]

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

With Edelgard I don't really know her route well enough to comment: I know that the coup is never instigated in CF, but I have no idea why that is.

There is quiet easy answere for this: Rhea. The kingdom becomes her new base of operations after the battle for gareg mach. I imagine all of Rhea's direct forces being in every major Kingdom city would make it quiet a bit tougher to stage a coup.  Heck Rhea herself may have stayed parts of the timeskip in Arianrhod and moved to the capital later on.  If not her Gilbert, Seteh or Catherine may have stayed in Arianrhod while they may not be as fearsome as Rhea herself are strong and Rhea probably would notice if something happened to either of them.

Edited July 25, 2020 by vikingsfan92

[Anathaco]

43 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Eh, I'm willing to concede the point and admit that there's a whole lot of other things that factor into Dimitri's development that don't necessarily hinge on Byleth thank god

You can probably manage to hate all the lords and still enjoy the story if you're an SS stan and they all die, which... might be what the author is getting at lol

Yeah, Byleth is still important for Dimitri's character- I agree that Dimitri probably would have kept going for Edelgard without the rain scene (either that or he gets a scene with his ghosts that tell him to move on with his life, which, while cliche, would have been pretty sweet). Personally I never minded it because I'm a sucker for over the top praise and being revered as a savior because Dimitri's arc without Byleth was compelling enough for me to overlook it. 

And as somebody who enjoys all the lords at least a little bit I am still a hardcore Seteth stan. 

40 minutes ago, vikingsfan92 said:

There is quiet easy answere for this: Rhea. The kingdom becomes her new base of operations after the battle for gareg mach. I imagine all of Rhea's direct forces being in every major Kingdom city would make it quiet a bit tougher to stage a coup.  Heck Rhea herself may have stayed parts of the timeskip in Arianrhod and moved to the capital later on.  If not her Gilbert, Seteh or Catherine may have stayed in Arianrhod while they may not be as fearsome as Rhea herself are strong and Rhea probably would notice if something happened to either of them.

Ah, OK. That makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks for clearing that up.