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Reason to hate Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude.


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IMO the real problem with Edelgard isn't the Slithers OR starting the war, it's her stubbornness and inability to trust leading her to walk a path that basically leaves her the obvious villain for Fodlan.

Starting the war isn't a problem for me because it was going to happen anyways. The Slithers are clearly aiming towards this, given their past with Nemesis, and then the Duscur mess, having one of their number in close proximity to the Prince (Cornelia) and one as Regent of the Empire (Arundel) meant they had more than enough pull to start the war regardless. Edelgard really started it on her own terms instead of whatever method they used, but it was going to happen anyways.

Likewise, working with the Slithers allows her to keep at least some grasp on what they're doing instead of just knowing they're out there plotting and maneuvering and not being in a position to do anything about it (Rhea). The biggest problem here is actually CF route (because in the other paths she keeps Rhea alive specifically as a countermeasure against the Slithers, as stated by an NPC in Garreg Mach after Enbarr in VW (and presumably SS)), because in this route Rhea dies, and given how focused on the war Edelgard has been (and she let Arundel take Failnaught in Deirdru, among other things to let the Slithers strengthen their side), what countermeasures are in place to make sure she doesn't get assassinated and thus the Slithers take over via Arundel?

 

The main issue for me is her inability to trust others and her stubbornness in believing her way was the ONLY way (while her decisions are somewhat justified in many cases, there's definitely room for improvement). Life isn't a board game where there's only one way to win, after all. Given her past with Dmitri, he could have been an ally against the Slithers, which would also give her a fallback option if the Empire fell into the Slithers' hands. Claude is an outsider who does absolutely nothing to give reason to trust him, but Dmitri and Byleth are both options, and possibly Jeralt. Instead of vague hints about needing to make a choice in BE WC, hints about the Slithers manipulating things might have led to a very different outcome. Instead she is reliant on Hubert and Jeritza, neither of which has much of a moral compass and both are more or less enablers (not to mention Jeritza barely functions as anything other than a weapon).

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2 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

The main issue for me is her inability to trust others and her stubbornness in believing her way was the ONLY way (while her decisions are somewhat justified in many cases, there's definitely room for improvement). Life isn't a board game where there's only one way to win, after all. Given her past with Dmitri, he could have been an ally against the Slithers, which would also give her a fallback option if the Empire fell into the Slithers' hands. Claude is an outsider who does absolutely nothing to give reason to trust him, but Dmitri and Byleth are both options, and possibly Jeralt. Instead of vague hints about needing to make a choice in BE WC, hints about the Slithers manipulating things might have led to a very different outcome. Instead she is reliant on Hubert and Jeritza, neither of which has much of a moral compass and both are more or less enablers (not to mention Jeritza barely functions as anything other than a weapon).

While it is true that Edelgard has serious trust issues, you have to look at it from her perspective. Who is she able to trust precisely? Her own uncle suddenly turned evil, betrayed her father, and then mole people experimented on her and her siblings. And those mole people can take the guise of nearly anyone around them. 

How can she trust Dimitri, when she no longer has memory of him? Keep in mind that serious traumatic events CAN cause people to suffer memory problems, especially given that Edelgard was trapped in the dungeons underneath the palace. So Edelgard no longer knew Dimitri. So what does Edelgard know about Dimitri? He's the prince of a nation that is basically subservient to the Church. 

And Edelgard DOES approach Claude in GD, even offering to exchange secrets with him, but Claude refuses to trust her and tries to make an unreasonable demand to get her to back off. 

Hubert is unquestionably loyal to her, and Jeritza depends on Edelgard to keep the Death Knight tame. 

Edelgard does try to trust Byleth, but when she reveals some sensitive things to him in Chapter 5 in the BE class, Hubert chastises her for saying too much. Because what Edelgard says is blasphemous and can get her executed.

Can you honestly say that you can trust the people around you through simple faith after dealing with so many issues with trust?

Even so, she tries to get him to understand her worldview. 

She might have wanted to get Jeralt on board as well, but he was constantly kept busy by Rhea, so Edelgard couldn't even approach him, let alone talk to him. 

And by the time the war starts... the war starts. 

Trust is a luxury. One that is now extremely dangerous to handle. 

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I wouldn't hope to find an ally for the revolution in Dimitri because what little he does share about his view re: the inherent corruption of the crest system is essentially "both sides have a point, there's a reason why things are the way they are." And if he finds out she's allied with the Slitherers hahahaha good luck talking him off that cliff so he can help her out afterwards.

Claude is a much better option, but I'm not sure how she'd realize that without getting to know him because he has no observable history before they meet at the monastery and... he is not helpful in that regard. He doesn't even tell Byleth the entirety of what he intends to do until the second half of the game. That said, she does outright dismiss him (after apparently learning they're working towards the same goals somehow) and she's convinced she needs to kill him when he clearly doesn't feel the same during the final meeting, so she definitely screws herself over there.

If I recall correctly, the library conversation was Claude and Edelgard poking at each other for being so secretive and he offers to share his secrets if she helps him achieve his goals and she's like nah you have yours and I have mine. I don't remember Claude saying anything that was particularly unfair (and he probably wasn't seriously expecting her to agree tbh).

 

Edited by Crysta
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25 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Claude is a much better option, but I'm not sure how she'd realize that without getting to know him because he has no observable history before they meet at the monastery and... he is not helpful in that regard. He doesn't even tell Byleth the entirety of what he intends to do until the second half of the game. That said, she does outright dismiss him (after apparently learning they're working towards the same goals somehow) and she's convinced she needs to kill him when he clearly doesn't feel the same during the final meeting, so she definitely screws herself over there.

If I recall correctly, the library conversation was Claude and Edelgard poking at each other for being so secretive and he offers to share his secrets if she helps him achieve his goals and she's like nah you have yours and I have mine. I don't remember Claude saying anything that was particularly unfair (and he probably wasn't seriously expecting her to agree tbh).

Claude basically says that he'll answer her questions if she helps him achieve his goals without question, which is unfair when you think about it. Without knowing what his goal is, Edelgard has to agree to help him before he answers anything, which is basically signing a contract without reading the contents. It's sketchy. 

The other issue is that non-CF Edelgard is one that no longer has the support of others and has worsened trust issues. Claude doesn't even offer parley like Dimitri does, and instead goes straight for the invasion, so at that point, any efforts in peace talk ends, so Edelgard will ensure that either she wins or she dies. Edelgard won't surrender, which makes sense when you recall her conversation in CF. If you're going to surrender, why bother fighting in the first place? 

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There was no "without question" attached. Trust is a two-way street, so I'd expect him to ask for some kind of commitment before sharing secrets she could easily use against him. It'd be pretty dumb of him not to, otherwise.

There was a whole five years between Edelgard declaring war on the Church and Byleth/Claude/the Church allying against her. She had plenty of time to talk to Claude, but she wasn't interested. Hell, if negotiations were the thing that actually stopped her from outright steamrolling the Alliance during that time, it would have made more sense than "civil war is happening so I better let it play out for some reason". But it wasn't.

As for Claude not reaching out to her instead, well, she is the one who kind of toppled over his sandcastle and is using the creepy demonic beast things to tear the kingdom asunder so... he might be under the impression that his odds of being listened to aren't very good.

Edited by Crysta
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15 hours ago, Crysta said:

There was no "without question" attached. Trust is a two-way street, so I'd expect him to ask for some kind of commitment before sharing secrets she could easily use against him. It'd be pretty dumb of him not to, otherwise.

There was a whole five years between Edelgard declaring war on the Church and Byleth/Claude/the Church allying against her. She had plenty of time to talk to Claude, but she wasn't interested. Hell, if negotiations were the thing that actually stopped her from outright steamrolling the Alliance during that time, it would have made more sense than "civil war is happening so I better let it play out for some reason". But it wasn't.

As for Claude not reaching out to her instead, well, she is the one who kind of toppled over his sandcastle and is using the creepy demonic beast things to tear the kingdom asunder so... he might be under the impression that his odds of being listened to aren't very good.

It was pretty much without question. He claims that he has a selfless dream, but he says that if she wants to have her questions answers, she must agree to help him fulfill his dream. Keep in mind that this is still not a developed Claude. A pre-developed Claude is someone that doesn't trust anyone, and actually wanted to rule over Fodlan, which is precisely what he confesses to in Crimson Flower. So his dream of wanting to end racism by opening borders is still in the lines of him wanting to rule over Fodlan. That's precisely why he doesn't help Edelgard in CF, despite how that's the route she's developed and isn't ruthless like she is in the other routes.

As you said, trust is a two-way street, and just as you claim Edelgard could have opened channels, so too could Claude. I mean, Dimitri opened channels with Edelgard and talked in AM, so why couldn't Claude. Dimitri's issue is that he's not the most compromising individual. Claude didn't even try and just went straight for conquering Adrestia. So you can't say that this is solely on Edelgard. 

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On 7/24/2020 at 1:29 AM, Ottservia said:

That’s the point though... Dimitri’s entire arc is about him overcoming the grief, despair, regret, and frustration that his survivor’s guilt dragged him towards. The reason he isn’t able to overcome it in other routes is because Byleth isn’t by his side to be his light such is the same with Edelgard. Byleth is their light. The one thing to keep them from diving headlong into darkest depths of despair. Without that light, they are lost and can’t find their way. They can’t stay true to themselves which is kinda the whole thematic through line of 3H’s story

Whether or not it’s the point doesn’t make it good writing though.

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