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Wraith

Anime’s Shortcomings

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I’ve been thinking about this recently, especially after watching this Gigguk video:

One of the shortcomings of anime in my opinion is that because of the proliferation of the concept of moe, many modern anime feel incredibly similar to one another. This seems to be the case even in shows that are completely different genres and tonally different from one another. Despite its popularity, many of the modern shows also come off as relatively bland based upon my own eclectic tastes. Finally, I find that the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ anime simply don’t hold a candle to the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ genre fiction found in literature. These are just some of the supposed shortcomings of anime in my opinion. Now tell me what your thoughts on the shortcomings of anime?

Edited by Wraith

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55 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Finally, I find that the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ anime simply don’t hold a candle to the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ genre fiction found in literature.

Sci-fi and cyberpunk anime would beg to differ. Thanks.

 

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A few things here.

1. I wouldn’t trust Gigguk’s analytical content. He’s the one who tried to say MHA isn’t a battle shounen because it uses fights to further its themes and character arcs.... which is what a battle shounen is so yeah.

2. could for once stop with the condescending attitude and just accept this medium isn’t for you. Like excuse my language but phrases like this piss me off

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Finally, I find that the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ anime simply don’t hold a candle to the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ genre fiction found in literature. These are just some of the supposed shortcomings of anime in my opinion. Now tell me what your thoughts on the shortcomings of anime?

Why? Because you’re completely throwing the whole of the animation medium under the bus just to justify for like for something else. Why do you have to constantly say “anime is a worse medium in every way I only enjoy high literature art” like stop with that. It’s arrogant and condescending and quite frankly it’s a little racially insensitive. No artistic medium is better than another why can’t you understand that. Every medium has its own strengths and weaknesses. Every industry has its problems. 
 

3. oh great the whole “all anime is the same” argument as if I hadn’t heard that garbage argument a million times. You only say that because you don’t understand all the nuances of what makes each show different or unique. Every story is different. It’s all in the little nuances and the different messages each story wants to tell. Saying they’re all the same is like saying all horror movies are the same simply because they follow similar genre tropes abd conventions when that’s just a dumb thing to say. I don’t like American action movies but do I say all action movies are the same? No I don’t because I realize each story is different with its own themes and ideas. 

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38 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

2. could for once stop with the condescending attitude and just accept this medium isn’t for you. Like excuse my language but phrases like this piss me off

Why? Because you’re completely throwing the whole of the animation medium under the bus just to justify for like for something else. Why do you have to constantly say “anime is a worse medium in every way I only enjoy high literature art” like stop with that. It’s arrogant and condescending and quite frankly it’s a little racially insensitive. No artistic medium is better than another why can’t you understand that. Every medium has its own strengths and weaknesses. Every industry has its problems. 

Again I’m not being condescending by simply stating an opinion and encouraging people to reply with their own opinions on the topic of this thread. I also recently started a thread of why people think anime is so prolific and wished to hear what other people had to say. No one is holding a gun to your head saying you have to agree with me. In fact you ardently disagree with me, which is fine. I never said that anime is the worst thing under the sun, just that I personally find it has a few issues. Also genre fiction as a whole has never really been considered ‘high art’ especially pulp authors like Manly Wade Wellman and Karl Edward Wagner. And just while I’m on the subject, there is a lot rubbish in genre fiction the has been produced over the years as well, it’s not something unique to anime.

How is critiquing an art form racially insensitive if I never once used any profanity or pejoratives towards any of the people who create it? So does that mean if I critique rap I’m automatically being racially insensitive to the people who create it as well? How does that logic make any sense? Also, genre fiction in literature has had 100+ years to develop as a medium and I feel as a result it has developed more then anime, which is still pretty young as a medium with only around 50-60 years to develop as a art form. I can one day see anime become well know around the world and it’s creators being household names, save for Hayao Miyazaki who already has that honor. Give it a few more decades an this will easily be the case.

Edited by Wraith

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6 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Also genre fiction as a whole has never really been considered ‘high art’ especially pulp authors like Manly Wade Wellman and Karl Edward Wagner.

Didn't people say the same thing for Bob Howard and H.P. Lovecraft? Moorcock was as much inspired by the former as he was by Poul Anderson, and every horror writer has written paeans to Lovecraft at least once.

Quote

How is critiquing an art form racially insensitive if I never once used any profanity or pejoratives towards any of the people who create it?

Yeah, you're not using profanity or pejoratives, but you are treating the art form with an overall air of derision and just off-handedly writing it off without basis of individual merit of examples, which strikes a raw nerve.

Edited by Karimlan

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1 minute ago, Karimlan said:

Didn't people say the same thing for Bob Howard and H.P. Lovecraft? Moorcock was as much inspired by the former as he was by Poul Anderson, and every horror writer has written paeans to Lovecraft at least once.

Sure Moorcock and others were inspired by H.P. Lovecraft and Robert Howard, but save S.T. Joshi very little scholarship exists on such authors and in academia such writers are still considered to be ‘low brow’. 

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25 minutes ago, Wraith said:

How is critiquing an art form racially insensitive if I never once used any profanity or pejoratives towards any of the people who create it?

Because you’re saying and I quote

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Finally, I find that the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ anime simply don’t hold a candle to the ‘classics’ or ‘best of’ genre fiction found in literature.

Which carries with it the implication that Japanese creators cannot hope to create anything as good as western literature because anime is Japanese by definition. Meaning you view the work by such creators as inherently inferior to western literature or at least that’s the implication I’m getting and that bothers me. And even beyond that your criticisms of the medium don’t even male any sense to which I’ve already outlined.

Edited by Ottservia

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10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Because you’re saying and I quote

Which carries with it the implication that Japanese creators cannot hope to create anything as good as western literature because anime is Japanese by definition. Meaning you view the work by such creators as inherently inferior to western literature or at least that’s the implication I’m getting and that bothers me.

Did not read the other part of my reply were I said that in a few decades I can see anime having a wider world wide apply and that it’s creators will be household names? Or the fact that I said that genre fiction has had about half-a-century more then anime to develop as an art form and that anime is still a relatively young medium? I think you’re reading a bit to much into my opinions.

Edited by Wraith

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Every form of media has its own different advantages and shortcomings; are you actually wanting to talk about that, as the title would imply, or are you just wanting to say how you think anime is worse than western media, as the content of your thread implies?

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Did not read the other part of my reply were I said that in a few decades I can see anime having a wider world wide apply and that it’s creators will be household names? Or the fact that I said that genre fiction has had about half-a-century more then anime to develop as an art form and that anime is still a relatively young medium? I think you’re reading a bit to much into my opinions.

No I read that part still doesn’t change the fact that what you said is a little racist and even then there are problems with what you said in that paragraph. The anime industry is probably the place where the animation medium is thriving the most. It’s the one animation industry that is willing to push this medium to its absolute limits in terms of what it can do in terms of cinematography and visual storytelling which I can’t say same for western animation which while it does have its diamonds in the rough is far too corporate and cookie cutter nowadays especially in terms of adult western cartoons.

You just don’t get animation sequences of this quality in western animation

 

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4 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sure Moorcock and others were inspired by H.P. Lovecraft and Robert Howard, but save S.T. Joshi very little scholarship exists on such authors and in academia such writers are still considered to be ‘low brow’. 

Your argument, quite frankly, is all over the place.

Are you now advocating being "informed in the classics" as the barometer which anime ought to be judged by? For that merit, you just might chalk Psycho-Pass up as a proponent of, considering the topics it delves in and elaborates (and no, it's not just the movie Minority Report).

Edited by Karimlan

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17 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You just don’t get animation sequences of this quality in western animation

 

Yeah; one thing I do love about anime is that, unlike western animation, it didn't give up on 2D animation, so it's able to pull off stuff like that. The only 2D western animation left is low-budget kids cartoons, which, while they can be great (like the first three seasons of SpongeBob SquarePants), can't really push the envelope like anime can both because of limited budget and because they're "kids' stuff". as if, "meant for kids" is a valid excuse for limiting quality.

Don't get me wrong; 3D animation can be great in its own ways and is perfect for making locations in animated media, but 2D animation allows the characters to be far more artistic. 

Here's another great bit of animation that helps with your point:

 

Edited by vanguard333

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16 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; one thing I do love about anime is that, unlike western animation, it didn't give up on 2D animation, so it's able to pull off stuff like that. The only 2D western animation left is low-budget kids cartoons, which, while they can be great (like the first three seasons of SpongeBob SquarePants), can't really push the envelope like anime can both because of limited budget and because they're "kids' stuff". as if, "meant for kids" is a valid excuse for limiting quality.

Here's another great bit of animation that helps with your point:

 

Ah Madhouse how I love you so and even beyond shounen if you want more quieter examples of anime really taking advantage of its medium I could just point to the entirety of kyoto animation as a proponent of some of the best animation the industry has to offer. Opening 1 of K-on alone has some of the best animated band sequences I’ve ever seen and that show was released like 11 years ago 
 

Kyoto animation are also the masters of expressive character animation. You can take a single screenshot if any character in this show and immediately tell what that character is thinking without any form of dialogue simply by their expression and the way they act.

Edited by Ottservia

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23 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Ah Madhouse how I love you so and even beyond shounen if you want more quieter examples of anime really taking advantage of its medium I could just point to the entirety of kyoto animation as a proponent of some of the best animation the industry has to offer. Opening 1 of K-on alone has some of the best animated band sequences I’ve ever seen and that show was released like 11 years ago 

Interestingly, season 1 of One-Punch Man wasn't just animated by Madhouse; for many scenes including the Saitama vs Boros fight, the guy in charge of Madhouse called in favors from animators that work for other studios, including Studio Bones and Wit Studio, and those animators had to work on the show under aliases and go uncredited because they're part of studios that weren't officially attached to the show. 

A lot of people blame JC Staff for the drop in animation quality in season 2, but it's very likely that Madhouse wouldn't have been able to achieve the same level of animation if they had done season 2. 

Edited by vanguard333

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56 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Interestingly, season 1 of One-Punch Man wasn't just animated by Madhouse; for many scenes including the Saitama vs Boros fight, the guy in charge of Madhouse called in favors from animators that work for other studios, including Studio Bones and Wit Studio, and those animators had to work on the show under aliases and go uncredited because they're part of studios that weren't officially attached to the show. 

A lot of people blame JC Staff for the drop in animation quality in season 2, but it's very likely that Madhouse wouldn't have been able to achieve the same level of animation if they had done season 2. 

that doesn't surprise me considering I've heard tale of the animation team being insecure about being unable to do Murata's artwork justice and who could blame? trying to adapt artwork like THIS into animation while also giving it the justice it deserves by staying true to its quality is not an easy feat to put it milidly

Spoiler

One-Punch Man Chapter 131 - Read One-Punch Man Chapter 131 manga ...

One-Punch Man Manga Vols 1&2 Review - Renegade Revolution

One-Punch Man 105-109 - Manga Review - All Your Anime Are Belong To Us

 

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40 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

that doesn't surprise me considering I've heard tale of the animation team being insecure about being unable to do Murata's artwork justice and who could blame? trying to adapt artwork like THIS into animation while also giving it the justice it deserves by staying true to its quality is not an easy feat to put it milidly

  Reveal hidden contents

One-Punch Man Chapter 131 - Read One-Punch Man Chapter 131 manga ...

One-Punch Man Manga Vols 1&2 Review - Renegade Revolution

One-Punch Man 105-109 - Manga Review - All Your Anime Are Belong To Us

 

Wow; that is some good art, which reminds me of one actual shortcoming of anime that I think most would agree on: the difficulty in keeping up with the manga it's adapting without overtaking it. Naruto was stuffed full of filler to the point where over 40% of the show is non-canon just to keep from overtaking the manga, the first Fullmetal Alchemist anime did overtake the manga and ended up having to write its own second half (and I heard the same thing happened to some other anime called Akime ga Kill or something like that; I haven't seen it and I've barely heard of it). Of course, not all anime are adaptations of manga; Code Geass was completely original... though it's perhaps not the best example since it was a writing trainwreck, but that's beside the point. 

 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Kyoto animation are also the masters of expressive character animation. You can take a single screenshot if any character in this show and immediately tell what that character is thinking without any form of dialogue simply by their expression and the way they act.

Oh, yeah; Kyoto Animation is really good at that. I haven't seen the show you used as an example, but I have seen Violet Evergarden, which was made by Kyoto Animation, and you're absolutely right. The amount of expression on the characters is amazing and it was used extremely well in Violet Evergarden since so much of the show's emotion depends on the characters, and it manages to make the show easily one of the saddest things I've ever seen (if a show can make you cry, this one definitely will). Here's the "full" opening of the show just to give an idea:

 

Edited by vanguard333

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also can I just say I agree with @Karimlan here. What exactly are you arguing here @Wraith. Anime is inferior because it hasn't been around as long? or it's inferior because it uses tropes you don't like? or is it inferior because you personally have never heard of the people behind such works? either way all arguments don't work since they're all a matter personal preference and taste meaning the argument you're making has no leg to stand on. Like again what exactly are you trying to argue here? The quality of a piece of art should not be judged on it's popularity or longevity that doesn't make any sense. SAO is one of the most anime of all time. Does that make it any good? no, no it doesn't. Also since when were you the authority of what medium can be considered better or worse? No medium is inherently better or worse than another. You're failing to consider that animation and Literature are two completely different mediums so comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. It's just not possible because animation is different entirely with different strengths and weaknesses

Edited by Ottservia

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9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Also since when were you the authority of what medium can be considered better or worse? No medium is inherently better or worse than another. You're failing to consider that animation and Literature are two completely different mediums so comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges. It's just not possible because animation is different entirely with different strengths and weaknesses

I agree completely with all of this: every medium has its own strengths and weaknesses that make it better for certain forms of storytelling than others. For instance, I could say that Ico is a video game with a great story. However, if one were to try to write an Ico novel (and someone actually did), it just wouldn't work as well, because the kind of story being told in Ico is one that plays to the strengths of a video game for storytelling, but not those of a novel.

Even within mediums, different genres, art styles, etc., have different strengths and weaknesses. 2D animation has completely different strengths and weaknesses from 3D animation, and some of the best animated works of fiction combine the two in ways that have all the strengths and few-to-none of the weaknesses. This is true for western animation and for anime, but in different ways because of the very different art styles. 

The different strengths and weaknesses of the different mediums and how well they're utilized could be a great topic for discussion all on its own; trying to argue that one is inherently better than the other is just not true. Literature arguably has been more impactful than anime, sure, but that's because literature has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years, while anime is only 103 years old. The "classics" of literature like The Lord of the Rings and such have simply had more time to be more impactful than, say, Dragon Ball, and even there, different anime like Dragon Ball and Miyazaki's works have been able to be huge worldwide phenomenons with lasting impact even outside of other anime. 

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