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Anathaco

Budding Talent Tier List

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So, long story short, I was bored and I figured I'd try my hand at making one of these, because I always end up conflicted over which Budding Talents are actually worth getting and which should be prioritised early on.

Some basic rules, first off:

I'll be ranking each character on their own, because, while some share the same skill from their budding talent, I think some characters make more use of it than others, so I'll separate those.

The criteria for ranking each budding talent will be both the usefulness of the ability received from unlocking it and how useful that skill will be to their overall class progression. Note that this is the terminology I will use: skill as the actual weapon skill turned into a boon, and ability/art for the passive or combat art it unlocks.

I'll be assuming Maddening, No NG+ for this list, though I may mention lower difficulties at points.

Standard disclaimer that this is my opinion- I'm not the most informed person on the subject, so please feel free to let me know where I may go wrong.

That said, let's get started:

Almost Always Useful:

Spoiler

Jeritza- Flying (Darting Blow)

Yeah this is really, really good, on both counts. Jeritza is basically a ball of stats when he joins, with good bases and good growths. His only issue is his low availability, which hampers his ability to train to get into wyvern lord- he's going to want that budding talent if he's to have any hope of reaching wyvern lord by the end of the game. Even if you don't run him as a Wyvern, Darting Blow is an insanely good ability that complements his great speed, and he's the only male in the game who can learn it, outside of NG+ shenanigans with Byleth. So yeah, good ability that complements his speedy statline, and flying is a good skill to train in. I think this is probably the best budding talent in the game- definitely always worth getting.

Hubert- Lance (Frozen Lance)

Frozen Lance is a pretty good combat art that lets Hubert deal some major damage early game- 3 base might with a 9 might steel lance + Hubert's 6 base dexterity is already a 13 might spell, as an example. Plus it gives him an extra way to output magic damage without relying too heavily on his spells. Tl;dr, Frozen Lance is a pretty good art that helps Hubert's combat go even further. As an added bonus, Hubert will enjoy his shiny new boon in lances, which makes it easier to get into a class such as Dark Knight. I put Hubert's version over Marianne's, which I'll get into in a bit, but basically because he makes better use of the lance boon and, as a more combat oriented mage, more combat options is always nice.

Marianne- Lance (Frozen Lance)

I'm not sure about putting this behind Hubert's version, so I'm definitely open to moving one or both of them, but, as above, Frozen Lance is good and the lance boon is good if she wants to go Dark Knight/Holy Knight (if that's your thing). I put Marianne behind Hubert because Hubert has slightly better stats for it (1 higher magic at base, and 5% more growth in Mag and Dex) and, as a combat mage he's more likely to make use of it- Marianne tends to heal more than attack. However, its debatable whether Frozen Lance is better on a combat unit to enhance what they do or a support unit to let them pull off some good damage when they need to. Anybody who has strong opinions on this let me know.

Bernadetta- Riding (Pass)

I put this one in Almost Always Useful because pass is very useful for strategies involving 1 or 2 turn clears- especially with Vengeance Bernie. This utility carries over even if you don't put her in a riding class- say you wanted to do Vengeance Bernie with a Falcon Knight, for example- or you wanted to focus on Bows and stick with Bow Knight. Regardless of her class choice, Pass will be a readily available and useful tool. Other strategies like Holy Knight Bernie (pass + Rescue shenanigans) also rely on getting this budding talent, and if you want to make her a Bow Knight to take the most advantage of her access to arts like Encloser, riding will be a skill she needs to hone. I'm putting this behind the Frozen Lancers because I think Pass comes into its own the most in the mid-late game, once Bernie actually gets a mount, whereas Frozen Lance can be useful as soon as you get it..

Usually Useful

Spoiler

Hilda- Armour (Seal Speed)

Everybody knows that Speed is one of the biggest problems that your units face on Maddening mode. An early seal speed helps with this issue immensely- esecially on Golden Deer where this can also be coupled with Ignatz' early access to Rally Speed to completely turn the tables on a fast enemy. She also learns Shatter Slash from lances at C+, which can let her debuff defence and speed at once, which is pretty damn nice, though it may come kind of late into the early game. As an added bonus, her personal gives some extra damage to male allies if you can position her right- if you attack with a bow, for example, Hilda can seal the enemy and then a male ally can jump in front of her to attack them and make use of both benefits. Or if she uses Shatter Slash she can aid a bow unit who comes in behind her. However there comes a point where your units will start killing in two hits anyway, and when that happens this skill has outlived its utility. There’s also the fact that armour is... not particularly useful to train in. It has some uses for a tank Hilda, and she can technically be used as a Guard Adjutant for someone like Balthus, for example. Weight - 3 is also a significant ability to consider shooting for, and helps Hilda a fair bit. But since her preferred path usually involves a flier, Armour isn't going to be the most useful for her. Overall I put this one in usually useful because seal speed, and the few uses she can get out of an armour boon.

Ferdinand- Armour (Seal Speed)

I'm very conflicted about whether to place this one higher or lower than Hilda. Petra, as one of the fastest units in the game, definitely enjoys having seal speed around. Overall, however, I feel like Hilda has it a bit better because of her presence on Golden Deer where she can combine with Ignatz for more speed shenanigans, and Leonie's base speed is only 1 point lower than Petra. In addition, Ferdinand isn't going to be using Armour much- if at all- considering his best use is usually a Swift Strikes bot, which makes Wyvern or even Paladin preferable to any armoured route- Fort Knight doesn't have lancefaire and the requirements to get into Great Knight are just so steep. As with Hilda though, Weight - 3 might be a good idea to grab if you’re going to start training his armour anyway. I think Seal Speed is certainly worth considering for the early game, but I put this one lower than Hilda because he makes even less use of armour than she does. I'm definitely open to suggestions for the seal speed pair though.

Claude- Axe (Diamond Axe)

I am also conflicted about Claude's Budding Talent. Diamond Axe is a neat perk- it hits like a truck for how early you can get it, and Claude's easy access to hit +20 somewhat patches up the poor accuracy of this art. It's nothing particularly special, but it's OK for what it is. Turning Axes into a boon of Claude's is also pretty good: he doesn't really need to be trained in Axes because he gets a Wyvern-like class that lets him focus on bows anyhow, but its a neat idea to get him to Wyvern Rider for a few chapters pre-timeskip- plus easier access to Death Blow from Brigand mastery. I hesitated to put it this high, but tbh I only just remembered it means easy Death Blow, and that kinda cemented my opinion on it being usually useful.


Dorothea- Faith (White Mag Avo + 20)

While the ability itself isn't particularly useful, especially on Dorothea, I feel like unlocking Faith as a boon is important to Dorothea overall- she learns Physic, so can be a strong healer alongside Linhardt for BE. Additionally, if Dorothea wants to end as a Gremory (which, admittedly, I haven't used her enough to know if that's her best option or she'd rather end as a Warlock), she will definitely want Faith to be a boon of hers- especially since it starts as a bane

Ignatz- Reason (Seal Strength)

I struggled tiering this one. I'm personally a fan of early seal strength, it can help your allies survive counterattacks if you want them to attack at melee range, or even if the foe you're attacking has a bow. The combo with Ignatz' early access to break shot is also pretty good- you can debuff strength and defence at once by using this art. However, reason isn't useful for his preferred classes like Sniper, so after you get seal strength you'll basically never touch reason again. Plus, Ignatz' access to Rally Speed is his biggest strength as an early game unit, in my eyes- and while you can run both and use whatever fits the situation best, you obviously can't rally and attack in the same turn. For these reasons, I've got Iggy down here below the seal speed gang in Usually Useful.

Flayn- Reason (Seal Magic)

Seal Magic is not that great, admittedly. Mages are easy enough to one-round that it's usually not worth it using an action just to make them do less damage. The reason this is so high is, for similar reasons to Dorothea, she could certainly use the Reason boon to get into classes like Gremory or Dark Flier. I have it lower than Dorothea because I can see more argument for her remaining a Bishop or Dancer, and just never needing Reason at all. I personally would recommend unlocking it for the two classes I mentioned above, but that's just me.
 

Lysithea- Sword (Soulblade)

Like Frozen Lance, Soulblade is a good combat art, particularly early on when Lysithea hasn’t quite accessed her strongest spells yet. It provides great damage up until her reason list is a bit more filled out and can even be used beyond that. However, this BT ranks lower than Hubert and Marianne because of 2 reasons: a) Soulblade has lower might all around, thanks to a lower base might, lower might of swords (steel sword for the sake of comparison) and Lysithea's lower base res and res growth, compared to the dex that FL scales on. And b) a sword boon just isn't too helpful- Mortal Savant doesn't even give the right Faire for Lysithea's spell list, and it doesn't factor into her ability to go into Dark Knight, Gremory or Dark Flier. Soulblade provides good damage in a pinch, and building around it, while maybe not optimal, is still a good idea if you want to do something different with Lysithea, so it gets into this tier on that alone.

Sometimes Useful

Spoiler

Anna- Riding (Pass)

OK, time to address the elephant in the room- why Anna is so low compared to Bernie. The big reason is that Anna just isn't as good. She doesn't have any bosskilling to speak of, which is the big reason I put Bernie so high. She can pull off the same Rescue + Pass trick, true, but it's the only real use for it unless she uses it to mess with Foul Play (which then doesn't use riding). So I have Anna here because she isn't as useful for bosskilling with Pass, and riding isn't a particularly important skill of hers, though Rescue + Pass is still good.

Dimitri- Riding (Seal Movement)

Ok, I was originally going to make a separate tier just for this one, at the very bottom, because Seal Movement is just that atrocious. It'd barely be worth it if it reduced movement TO 1, and whoever designed this had the audacity to make it reduce movement BY 1. That said, a Riding boon is pretty nice- Dimitri appreciates a mount and can put in some great work if he has one- Paladin is a decent final class for him, I think. And there are other possible endgame classes for him- Wyvern to leverage its strength for Vantage/Wrath, etc. So, despite the fact that Riding is useful for a good promotion path for Dimitri, the fact that he may as well not have an ability from it puts it way down here. Unlock it if you want to go Paladin, but never use Seal Movement. It won't help you at all..

Yuri- Bows (Deadeye)

While Deadeye isn't a great (or even really good) art by any means, a boon in Bows gives Yuri an opportunity to become a Sniper, which helps him deal great damage against enemies even on Maddening. It also lets him go Assassin, which is a good way to pump up his speed stat, if not as good an endgame class as Sniper. I could see this going lower, honestly, because IMO he's better off as a Grappler despite being neutral in brawling (his personal skill favours melee combat over ranged combat). However, because I'm saving the tier below for units who have options that are indubitably better than their budding talent, I kept him up here, as an argument could be made that he has an easier time getting into Sniper thanks to his budding talent, and this could be a valid reason for people to make use of his BT.

Ashe- Lance (Shatter Slash)

Shatter Slash is a nice debuffing art, taking some defence from the enemy, but having to send a squishy unit up close to deliver a debuff isn't usually a good idea. Break Shot is just always a better option unless you're trying to debuff an archer, but it can be nice to have for some scenarios. The Lance boon is the real prize of this budding talent IMO- it helps him have an easier time getting to Bow Knight or Wyvern Lord. Considering he can also go into Sniper and do good work there (and I wager a large amount of people would argue for that option over anything else), even the lance boon can end up useless, hence its placement as Sometimes Useful.

Rarely Useful

Spoiler

Sylvain- Reason (Black Mag Avo +20)

This’ll be a common theme with these next few. A physical unit with a magical budding talent struggles to justify going along that path because their physical options are just so much stronger. In Sylvain's case it's Swift Strikes that he's better off focusing on- by going Wyvern Lord or Paladin he gets innate Lancefaire, compared to Dark Knight which lets him leverage the extra avoid and lets him utilise Physic, but has no lancefaire. The avoid can be helpful in a lot of situations, and can be stacked with something like a breaker skill to make him decent at dodging. Its better than a flat crit boost at least. I rate it above Byleth as well because letting Sylvain use a magic class as opposed to pure physical lets him utilise Physic (though you obviously need to train his faith for that)+ his ok reason list. Overall, the ability is a decent boost if you choose to take advantage of his reason boon in a class that allows for it, and you get an extra healer from this too, but due to it only helping this specific class path, I choose to place it in rarely useful. 

Byleth- Faith (White Mag Avo +20)

An iffy talent imo. Byleth's faith spell list (and their spell list in general) is pretty bad (though recover is nice), and its not like they need faith training to get into Enlightened One. The biggest merit I can think of is the nosferatu dodgetank idea I've seen thrown around a few times- which could be really helpful in Hunting By Daybreak. But the fact that it requires activity points to even unlock is the biggest point against it in my view- it could be helpful, but you give up an awful lot for a benefit in one chapter, maybe more.

Edelgard- Reason (Black Mag Crit +10)

Similar to the rest of the Black Mag Crit Gang, in that it's not worth choosing over her normal physical route (and in this case you are forced to choose, there's no hybrid axe/magic class unless you just throw Aymr on her in a magic class). Edelgard also barely has any black magic to make use of it. She gets Fire and Bolganone, and her other 2 spells are dark magic. So the ability itself will see use on maybe Bolganone and that's it. At the very least, she has a good magic stat to make use of her reason, which makes unlocking it worth slightly more than the rest of the Black Mag Crit Gang, but Wyvern Lord Aymr is just such a good combo that almost nothing can rival it. 

Mercedes- Bows (Waning Shot)

Waning Shot, for those who don't know, is a combat art that inflicts -5 strength on the enemy. The issues I have with this budding talent are twofold: a) when Mercedes gets it, she won't really be doing any damage with it because of her poor strength, and it's better to actually do damage to the enemy so you can kill them and they can't do damage than debuff them so they deal less damage. The second issue is b) unlocking it conflicts with her role as a healer. What I mean is this: if you want her to use bows, her best bet is to try the Hunter's Volley Magic Bow build, but that requires being a Sniper, a class that cannot heal. If she stays as a healer and uses Waning Shot occasionally, she will likely only deal damage with the Magic Bow, which still requires B Bows to use, and arguably that turn would have better been spent healing. It's OK if you absolutely cannot kill an enemy that turn, and Dedue is available to tank it, but overall, effective use of the skill requires her to give up healing, and the combat art is situationally useful.

Constance- Brawling (Mystic Blow)

Similar to Mercedes, Constance's budding talent is a good idea for runs where you feel like doing something different with her. Her best utility will probably mostly be as a pure mage, but with the release of the War Monk/Cleric she can make pretty good use of the Aura Knuckles for damage. Certainly not optimal, but usable.

The big issue here is obviously that she needs A rank in brawling to even use Aura Knuckles, so she’s forced to spam mystic blow/pneuma gale while instructing and tutoring picks up the slack. To be fair, there are worse combat arts than mystic blow- it has 13 might with steel knuckles, and Constance doesn’t learn anything that surpasses that until A+ reason, Agnea’s Arrow. Aura Knuckles also basically require you to build around them- like Mercie's HV Magic Bow build, you can't just run a mage class and occasionally use them, you have to use War Cleric otherwise you can't use gauntlets at all. Mercedes has the advantage because a) she does more damage with her build of choice and b) Waning Shot is at least something that she can use if she sticks with healing- Constance has to go all in or not use Brawling at all until she reaches War Monk.

So yeah, Constance's budding talent is only worth it if you want to build around it, though I'd argue there are good reasons to do so over other options like Dark Flier (there's a whole thread on Mixed Builds with a special debate on Aura Knuckles, but basically they hit just as hard if not harder than a lot of spells). The lack of flexibility with building around this BT leaves it squarely in Rarely Useful.

Balthus- Reason (Black Mag Crit +10)

Balthus has a pretty poor magic stat, and his spell list leaves a lot to be desired. Plus his physical class options are just better. His only benefit over the rest of the Black Mag Crit Gang is more spells to make use of, which puts him above Felix, but not Edelgard.

Felix- Reason (Black Mag Crit +10)

Mortal Savant Felix became known pretty early on as a kind of beginner's trap- it's the only master class he can use with Swordfaire, AND his budding talent lets him get there easy, so it's gotta be good, right? Unfortunately, Felix's spell list isn't very useful (Like, bro, Dedue learns more spells than you, and Thoron alone does not a spell list make), and his magic stat is also pretty bad. There's no clear reason to go reason over just using a Levin Sword or something (staying in Swordmaster even lets him keep the +10 crit), and Felix's best class path is arguably War Master anyways

Hapi- Axe (Exhaustive Strike)

I said for Claude that Axes as a budding talent were worth it because of easier access to Death Blow and Wyvern Rider. As a magical unit, Hapi does not care about either of those- DB for obvious reasons, and Wyvern because it locks her out of using spells, and her spell list is honestly the best thing about Hapi. Axes have absolutely no relevance to any class she may consider going for- even a Bolt Axe Wyvern, the ultimate clutch build for magically inclined axes, isn't particularly good on Hapi because her magic stat is average for a mage, and unlike Annette, she actually wants to use her spells. For what it's worth, her personal combined with a brave axe is the only way to get effective damage and a brave effect on monsters, which actually yields some good damage, but it requires you to forsake her magic, which is a pretty big blow IMO. And she doesn't have anything to really keep her damage relevant until Brave Axe, because no combat arts other than the generic ones (Exhaustive Strike doesn't count lol)

Speaking of, Exhaustive Strike is the final nail in the coffin for this one. A forged steel axe has 60 durability, and still only does 34 damage with the art's base might included AND the weapon's might itself- not to mention it's a physical attack, and her strength isn't that great- better than a lot of other mages, yeah, but not great. A Bolt Axe+ does 26 damage while using her stronger magic stat, so that's a bit better- but she can only use that once per weapon, and if she gets attacked, then have fun defending with a broken axe. Long story short, Exhaustive Strike deals too little damage for what it costs and is generally worthless.

So yeah, that's why I consider this the worst budding talent in the game. I did some math in the replies below on the Brave Axe thing, but if anybody has actually used this (or some other aspect of this talent as a whole) to any success let me know, because I'd unironically love to hear about it.

 

 

So there we go. That's my tier list of all the Budding Talents in the game. I think. God I hope I got them all. 

Anyway, let me know any disagreements you have- I may edit the tier list as discussion progresses.

Edited by Anathaco
Some changes in tier list

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2 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Constance- Brawling (Mystic Blow)

Similar to Lysithea, Constance's budding talent is a good idea for runs where you feel like doing something different with her. Her best utility will probably mostly be as a pure mage, but with the release of the War Monk/Cleric she can make pretty good use of the Aura Knuckles for damage. Certainly not optimal, but usable. Constance is lower than Lysithea because a) Aura Knuckles basically require you to build around it- unlike Soulblade, you can't just run a mage class and occasionally use them, you have to use War Cleric otherwise you can't use gauntlets at all. And b) Mystic Blow is pretty niche. So yeah, Constance's budding talent is only worth it if you want to build around it, though I'd argue there are good reasons to do so over other options like Dark Flier (there's a whole thread on Mixed Builds with a special debate on Aura Knuckles, but basically they hit just as hard if not harder than a lot of spells). I'm open to this moving a bit though. I don't want to put her in the same tier as the Black Mag Crit Gang because, unlike them, there's at least an argument to be had that building around her budding talent could be just as beneficial as a standard build.

Personally, I think this is more a bottom tier budding talent because mages can't use gauntlets, meaning that unlocking it does no good unless you tried to do something else, and even then, I'd hesitate to send someone who has the durability of wet toilet paper into melee range, where they're assuredly dead if they can't finish off whatever they're attacking.

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Is Byleth's Magic list that bad? They aren't a dedicated mage, but being able to Fire/Thunder and one round Armors isn't too bad. Chapter 13 is so obnoxious that even if you are only using White Magic Avoid on that map, it's worth it I feel. Enlightened One is a good utility class; yeah its not Physic but Recover heals a lot of HP and is useful for a front line unit to be able to heal other front liners.

Like Shadow Mir said I think Brawl on Constance is just as bad as Axe on Hapi. If you are looking at this from a Maddening NG perspective, it takes too much investment to make a niche built like this good.

I hate how Dorothea and Felix have those budding talents, but don't learn many spells after the fact. I haven't use Gremory Dorothea because it feels like a waste, I'd rather get Magic Range+1. 

Holy Knight Bernie sounds funny. It's gimmicky, but sounds like a fun unit.

Edited by LoneStar

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2 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Is Byleth's Magic list that bad? They aren't a dedicated mage, but being able to Fire/Thunder and one round Armors isn't too bad. Chapter 13 is so obnoxious that even if you are only using White Magic Avoid on that map, it's worth it I feel. Enlightened One is a good utility class; yeah its not Physic but Recover heals a lot of HP and is useful for a front line unit to be able to heal other front liners.

I would say yes. Also, I'd think White Magic Avoid +20 isn't useful for Byleth because they're probably not doing enough to heal off any attacks that connect, to say nothing of the fact that once Nosferatu runs out, your only recourse is to equip Heal or Recover and let enemies take free shots at them. Yeah, no. That's about as smart as robbing a police station.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say yes. Also, I'd think White Magic Avoid +20 isn't useful for Byleth because they're probably not doing enough to heal off any attacks that connect, to say nothing of the fact that once Nosferatu runs out, your only recourse is to equip Heal or Recover and let enemies take free shots at them. Yeah, no. That's about as smart as robbing a police station.

I guess, but the point isn't to heal, but not get touched. Like I said if you're using EO Byleth I don't think it's a complete waste if its just for CH13.

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9 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Is Byleth's Magic list that bad? They aren't a dedicated mage, but being able to Fire/Thunder and one round Armors isn't too bad. Chapter 13 is so obnoxious that even if you are only using White Magic Avoid on that map, it's worth it I feel. Enlightened One is a good utility class; yeah its not Physic but Recover heals a lot of HP and is useful for a front line unit to be able to heal other front liners.

It's not atrocious, but it's definitely nothing special- recover is nice, but like, that's about it. That is a fair point about Chapter 13 being obnoxious enough for White Mag Avo to be worth it, but I don't know if it's necessarily the best way to tackle that chapter- and if its not there's not much more of a point to it. I'll keep it in mind though.

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I think this is more a bottom tier budding talent because mages can't use gauntlets, meaning that unlocking it does no good unless you tried to do something else, and even then, I'd hesitate to send someone who has the durability of wet toilet paper into melee range, where they're assuredly dead if they can't finish off whatever they're attacking.

Deja vu, I've been in this debate before...

Sorry, couldn't resist the joke. But yeah, I did mention mages not using gauntlets as a pretty big flaw with it, you either have to build around it or not use it at all.

I put it in sometimes useful because rarely useful kinda became the dumping ground for the budding talents that were strictly worse alternatives to normal builds. And call me biased because I spent ages defending it on the Mixed Builds thread, but I admittedly don't see it as strictly inferior to a mage build- more damage in exchange for more risk is a fair trade to me personally, but I get that others don't like that.

Though, considering that's two people arguing to lower it, I could throw it in Rarely Useful somewhere- I don't want to put it in UnHapi tier because at least Constance's BT is somewhat usable, even if only for pure gimmick. Not sure where exactly in that tier to throw it though.

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25 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

I guess, but the point isn't to heal, but not get touched. Like I said if you're using EO Byleth I don't think it's a complete waste if its just for CH13.

I do when it takes another one of your remaining four ability slots to be even remotely useful, as it alone probably won't amount to much. And still, you're stuck either doing absolutely nothing in return or doing poor damage, neither of which helps in the slightest.

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This is a really interesting topic, and your comments are also really insightful!

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

I am UnHapi with this one

I've been wondering for a while now whether Hapi can be built to make use of her budding talent and it seems like the answer is no. Even with a mag stat of 33 (average for Lv40 Gremory Hapi, Axefaire on WL brings her attack power to about the same) that's only coming out at moderate chip damage against everyone bar armours/monsters (who would take heavy damage from any normal Hapi build anyway). Damage which her spells aren't going to exceed, but the exchange of Banshee/Warp/Physic and the potential for 4+ range for chipping up to 6 times per map definitely seems too steep for Maddening. Thanks for highlighting this so I didn't waste my time on it!

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Bernadetta- Riding (Pass)

Pass is an amazing skill, and I completely agree that Anna is top of her tier just on the basis of Pass alone (it's useful even if she doesn't use her riding boon). I'd just add to your Bernie explanation that even traditional bow builds for Bernadetta like Pass in their own right. It's less important for Sniper, but Bow Knight Bernadetta (or even interim Cavalier/Paladin/Peg Knight running bows) is very happy with cutting down her movement costs where possible, and increasing canto range. I only bring it up because I've never used the Vengeance strat (can't stand low-HP builds) and still love getting her Pass.

However, from that perspective (where lances are normally secondary for Bernie), I would have to rank it lower than the Frozen Lance duo, just because Pass isn't as essential. Completely see your point with Vengeance though, and why you've put it where you have.

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Hubert- Lance (Frozen Lance)

Marianne- Lance (Frozen Lance)

I think Hubert just above Marianne is the right order, but I think both of them should be ranked even higher for their budding talents (higher than Ferd/Bernie, probably Hilda too). Frozen Lance in the early game is one of the easiest-to-achieve, lowest cost, reliable OHKOs, even on Maddening, and for Hubert in particular it never really stops OHKOing. Paladin Hubert (especially with AoI, but Silver Lance+ works just fine) kills most things through the game. And since his utility spells are a bit worse than Marianne (Physic + Silence > Banshee + Mire + Recover), it means there's less doubt about running him primarily for Player Phase offense. Of course Frozen Lance is only 1-range, but only Dark Spikes will (situationally) hit harder, and Frozen Lance has far more uses. Frozen Lance is one of, if not the, best options for Hubert overall, which is why I'd rank it so high.

Marianne can have hit rate issues which mean Frozen Lance is also her most solid offensive choice. But she is overall a bit more flexible and a bit less powerful, so while Frozen Lance is also great on her, it isn't quite as important to her as it is to Hubert. Her relic also guides her towards Swords, which is why I'd also rank her budding talent in Lances below Hubert's.

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Hilda- Armour (Seal Speed)

Ferdinand- Armour (Seal Speed)

Completely agree with everything you've said about both of them. For me, Seal Speed can also see use up until the late game as well (for example, stealing stuff, or a specific boss threshold). But I think they should come after Hubert/Marianne/Bernadetta, simply because I'm normally dropping this skill after the early game. While the early game is notably tough, it's still at most 1/3 of the game as a whole - Frozen Lance/Pass see regular use throughout the game, and the fact that Hilda/Ferd's best builds don't normally want debuff skills mean they should come at the lower end of top tier.

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Ignatz- Reason (Seal Strength)

I think early Seal Strength is only slightly worse than early Seal Speed (should let you survive a counter, could let you survive doubling, although at much lower HP than with Seal Speed, and has a lower chance of preventing doubling altogether). Seal Strength also tails off a bit harder past the early game, but Ignatz is one of the only units who can be built well as a debuffer, so I forgive it.

Like you say, Ignatz' best early game use is with Rally Speed, but I think it's very worth running both skills. You're going to need to feed Ignatz some exp in the early game anyway, and you're also lacking in firepower. Ignatz can rally if it's necessary/if he can't reach an enemy, but if not then Curved/Break Shot it is, and since he's never going to kill with that, Seal Strength means other units can do chip without fatal retaliation. On top of that, Reason training allows you to get Fiendish Blow, which could be useful for Levin Sword/Magic Bow even if you don't want to run mage Ignatz. So I personally would elevate him to the bottom of top tier, but yeah there's not much in it.

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Additionally, if Dorothea wants to end as a Gremory (which, admittedly, I haven't used her enough to know if that's her best option or she'd rather end as a Warlock)

Dorothea's faith list ends at Physic, which is a shame, but Physic is valuable enough that Gremory is naturally worthwhile, depending on army composition (i.e. what other healing capacity you have). Since the Faire isn't likely to elevate her to OHKO, and not having the Faire isn't likely to drop her beneath the significant chip threshold, I prefer Gremory in general, but it's definitely dealer's choice. Even if she were to go Dancer or Mortal Sav, I'd still unlock her Faith boon just to get Physic, so I agree with where you've put her on the list.

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Yuri- Bows (Deadeye)

I think Yuri should be a bit higher on this list, because Bows also gives him access to Assassin, which is also a very fitting class for him. Probably above Lys, and below Dimitri?

3 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Ashe- Lance (Shatter Slash)

Ashe feels too high within his tier - I get that Lance proficiency allows some of his better classes, but since his best offensive power is in Sniper, it seems like he should probably go just above Constance. Wyvern + Locktouch, or +2 Bowrange, are both cool things to have, but since other units can easily do those classes/niches too (Chest Keys are very available) I think Ashe's lance proficiency isn't too important. Still within the range of sometimes useful, but not higher than Yuri or even the consistency of Soulblade.

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42 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Like Shadow Mir said I think Brawl on Constance is just as bad as Axe on Hapi. If you are looking at this from a Maddening NG perspective, it takes too much investment to make a niche built like this good

20 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Though, considering that's two people arguing to lower it, I could throw it in Rarely Useful somewhere- I don't want to put it in UnHapi tier because at least Constance's BT is somewhat usable, even if only for pure gimmick. Not sure where exactly in that tier to throw it though.

Lol definitely don't need to rehash that debate. But yeah, like Anathaco says a demotion to Rarely Useful is perhaps in order. I think the build is achievable on NG though, so maybe top of Rarely Useful.

 

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3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Pass is an amazing skill, and I completely agree that Anna is top of her tier just on the basis of Pass alone (it's useful even if she doesn't use her riding boon). I'd just add to your Bernie explanation that even traditional bow builds for Bernadetta like Pass in their own right. It's less important for Sniper, but Bow Knight Bernadetta (or even interim Cavalier/Paladin/Peg Knight running bows) is very happy with cutting down her movement costs where possible, and increasing canto range. I only bring it up because I've never used the Vengeance strat (can't stand low-HP builds) and still love getting her Pass.

However, from that perspective (where lances are normally secondary for Bernie), I would have to rank it lower than the Frozen Lance duo, just because Pass isn't as essential. Completely see your point with Vengeance though, and why you've put it where you have.

I'll definitely add the bow bit in to Bernie's- that's a good point about canto, particularly with Bow Knight and their increased bowrange.

And yeah I can see it being below Frozen Lance, if for no other reason than the fact that Pass is most useful once Bernie actually gets a mount, which takes a little bit.

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Completely agree with everything you've said about both of them. For me, Seal Speed can also see use up until the late game as well (for example, stealing stuff, or a specific boss threshold). But I think they should come after Hubert/Marianne/Bernadetta, simply because I'm normally dropping this skill after the early game. While the early game is notably tough, it's still at most 1/3 of the game as a whole - Frozen Lance/Pass see regular use throughout the game, and the fact that Hilda/Ferd's best builds don't normally want debuff skills mean they should come at the lower end of top tier.

I can probably see them both coming down to the bottom of Always Useful- that way they're also a little closer to Ignatz without having to bump him above Claude or Dorothea, because I wouldn't put him above those two. Speaking of:

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I think early Seal Strength is only slightly worse than early Seal Speed (should let you survive a counter, could let you survive doubling, although at much lower HP than with Seal Speed, and has a lower chance of preventing doubling altogether). Seal Strength also tails off a bit harder past the early game, but Ignatz is one of the only units who can be built well as a debuffer, so I forgive it.

Like you say, Ignatz' best early game use is with Rally Speed, but I think it's very worth running both skills. You're going to need to feed Ignatz some exp in the early game anyway, and you're also lacking in firepower. Ignatz can rally if it's necessary/if he can't reach an enemy, but if not then Curved/Break Shot it is, and since he's never going to kill with that, Seal Strength means other units can do chip without fatal retaliation. On top of that, Reason training allows you to get Fiendish Blow, which could be useful for Levin Sword/Magic Bow even if you don't want to run mage Ignatz. So I personally would elevate him to the bottom of top tier, but yeah there's not much in it.

Yeah, I definitely agree with the fact that it's worth running both Rally Speed and Seal Strength. I meant to say that I thought that out of the two, Rally Speed would see a bit more use, but it does sound like I was saying to ditch Seal Strength lol. I'll fix that.

 

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I think Yuri should be a bit higher on this list, because Bows also gives him access to Assassin, which is also a very fitting class for him. Probably above Lys, and below Dimitri?

Good catch, I completely forgot about Assassin. Not sure if that's enough to bump him up above Lysithea and Soulblade, though I could see it. I'll leave him where he is for now.

 

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Ashe feels too high within his tier - I get that Lance proficiency allows some of his better classes, but since his best offensive power is in Sniper, it seems like he should probably go just above Constance. Wyvern + Locktouch, or +2 Bowrange, are both cool things to have, but since other units can easily do those classes/niches too (Chest Keys are very available) I think Ashe's lance proficiency isn't too important. Still within the range of sometimes useful, but not higher than Yuri or even the consistency of Soulblade.

Fair enough about Ashe- tbh Dimitri was originally going to be much lower, then I remembered that Riding is actually good for him early game, and even a viable endgame option potentially. Hence why Ashe is around that level despite the fact that he maybe should be lower. I'll put him below Yuri.

 

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Lol definitely don't need to rehash that debate. But yeah, like Anathaco says a demotion to Rarely Useful is perhaps in order. I think the build is achievable on NG though, so maybe top of Rarely Useful.

 

Yeah, I can see that. Constance was probably the one that shifted positions the most- between bottom of sometimes and top of rarely, so I'm fine to put her back there.

EDIT: I ended up putting her lower than that because I kind of forgot that she needs A rank to use Aura Knuckles. I still think the payoff is good enough to put it above UnHapi tier, but it’s definitely on the low end of Rarely Useful- very possible to use, but a lot of effort to train.

 

3 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

This is a really interesting topic, and your comments are also really insightful!

Thanks, I appreciate it

(I spent like a day doing the write ups lol, I type waaaaay too slowly).

Edited by Anathaco

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7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Holy Knight Bernie (pass + Rescue shenanigans)

I'ma be frank - this sounds a hell of a lot more useful in theory than in actual practice. Thanks to Rescue only having a range of mag/4, I would expect her Rescue range to be garbage, which pretty much kills this build.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I definitely don't find Seal Speed that useful overall. It's only useful on enemies you can't kill in two attacks, and that's rarely a problem even in Maddening (at least once you get battalions), especially for units like Hilda whose Tempest Lance should easily take over half of most enemies' HP. It has some use, especially since you can activate it with a Hand Axe or Javelin (and thus have Hilda/Ferdinand set up a kill for someone else without taking a counter themselves) but it's pretty situational, and I always turf it as soon as I have five abilities I consider to be actually useful.

That said, aside from the fact that I'd move it down a tier, I don't think I'd move it past anything else you currently have below it... budding talent abilities just aren't that great on average IMO. Also, since you seem to be considering the value of the skill itself, Armour is great for both Hilda and Ferdinand, since it unlocks Weight-3 at C, so there's that.

I do think Lysithea's Soulblade should probably be a bit higher. You cover the reasons why it's worse than Frozen Lance and I agree, but it's not THAT much worse, and still a notable improvement for Lysithea's earlygame peak damage, especially since her options against low-res enemies are relatively low power until B reason (Miasma is the best at 5).

Black Magic Avoid is far better than Black Magic Crit. The Crit skill is bad because hardly any reason spells actually have significant crit, so you never get anything remotely reliable from it. On the other hand, +20 avoid is a pretty big deal, even if Reason Prowess is not that conducive to dodge-tanking builds; it definitely helps Sylvain's survivability in a magic build. (And while you can say "he just shouldn't use that build", I would argue he certainly has more reason to use it than Edelgard, Balthus, or Felix, due to getting Physic.)

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15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'ma be frank - this sounds a hell of a lot more useful in theory than in actual practice. Thanks to Rescue only having a range of mag/4, I would expect her Rescue range to be garbage, which lets all the air out of this build.

True. Honestly I’m not too familiar with it, which is why I only touched on it briefly. I assume some people have had success with it, but I’m not sure what they did to set it up for max utility. Bernie being as high as she is is mainly due to her being able to use Pass for boss kill strategies with Vengeance and easier hit and run strategies with Bow Knight, plus her 2 best class options IMO (Paladin and Bow Knight) both need riding.

EDIT: @Dark Holy Elf Missed your post and can’t work out how to add a quote into an edit on mobile so I’ll just mention you: Fair enough for Hilda and Ferdinand. I personally found seal speed to be pretty useful for a long while, hence why they were rated so high. As you said, weight - 3 is pretty useful for them both, and they probably don’t belong below any of the characters in the lower tiers, so I’ll leave them where they are for now.

True on Lysithea, I can probably bump that way up to maybe below Flayn? Swords not being necessary for her was the main reason I had her so low, but you’re right about Soulblade being a good early game art like FL.

Thats also a good point on Sylvain, admittedly I kinda rushed through him + the Black Mag Crit Gang. I can see him above those three for sure.

Edited by Anathaco

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Best frozen lance user is a bit of a tossup imo; Hubert has a statistical edge and wants it more, but Marianne has easier access to lancefaire classes, thanks to her being female and having boons in riding and flying, and where a bunch of others can physic just as well as her, few of them have straightforward access to high damage builds.
I don't really have a strong opinion on which is the best.

I've personally had great success with Assassin Lysithea using a levin sword+, though it's a bit of a taxing build since the point is to have her double with a 9 wt weapon, on maddening. It does work but you have to stack a lot of things(both blows, plus preferably wt-3 and spd+2, and assassin requires you to raise bow a bit; also it's somewhat of a pricey build). That was probably the most I ever got out of the class, period, though. Reliable long range ORKO on almost everything, with Shade for survivability. Didn't actually use soulblade all that much, so this is really about the sword boon, but thanks to her having prodigy, I think I can also mention Swordfaire 2 without too many contestations.

Not a massive fan of 3H sealing skills pretty much for the reasons Dark Holy Elf brought up, but I also don't have much experience with them truth be told, so eh.

I agree with pretty much all the rest, can't think of much of anything to add to any entry either.

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Love seeing a tier list like this!

I would definitely jump Sylvain's talent up a rank. While Sylvain's is useless on physical builds, it's essential on magical builds. Black Magic Avoid +20 can eventually be combined with Bowbreaker, to make Sylvain an effective counter, and enemy-phase lure, for Snipers and Bow Knights. Finally, while his strength is better than his magic, he does get a decent Reason list, plus Physic.

Also, I don't think Hapi's is quite as trash as it sounds at first. Yeah, Lightning Axe would have been better than Exhaustive Strike. But a talent in Axes helps her get Brigand (like Claude), which is good for literally any physical build of Hapi. Including Wyvern Lord, which is still a strong class on basically anyone - even if it's not optimal on Hapi. At the very least, I would consider the talent on par with Felix's (poor spell list, poor magic growth, and Crit +10 is such a small boost).

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would definitely jump Sylvain's talent up a rank. While Sylvain's is useless on physical builds, it's essential on magical builds. Black Magic Avoid +20 can eventually be combined with Bowbreaker, to make Sylvain an effective counter, and enemy-phase lure, for Snipers and Bow Knights. Finally, while his strength is better than his magic, he does offer a good spell list on both sides (Thoron, Physic).

Sylvain doesn’t get Thoron, at least according to Serenes Forest. He does get physic though, which is nice on magical builds.
I agree that the avoid is nice and helpful for durability, which is why it’s as high as it is (it was much lower originally, like below Felix). The reason I have it in rarely useful is the fact that most Sylvain builds won’t use magic, at least on maddening runs, whereas the tier above his is for budding talents where the skill can be used in one of the unit’s optimal class lines (Wyvern for Ashe, Sniper for Yuri, for example). I’m not familiar enough with magic Sylvain to know whether that would qualify as an optimal build for maddening- my only experience with Dark Knight Sylvain was on hard mode, where he was admittedly pretty bad. Hence it’s in rarely useful- good should you choose to build around it but there are certainly better paths for him to take. I can see an argument for him moving up, but I’ll leave him as is for the time being.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, I don't think Hapi's is quite as trash as it sounds at first. Yeah, Lightning Axe would have been better than Exhaustive Strike. But a talent in Axes helps her get Brigand (like Claude), which is good for literally any physical build of Hapi. Including Wyvern Lord, which is still a strong class on basically anyone - even if it's not optimal on Hapi. At the very least, I would consider the talent on par with Felix's (poor spell list, poor magic growth, and Crit +10 is such a small boost

My issue with Hapi is there is almost no reason to run her as a physical class. Her strength is surprisingly decent, as her growth is on par with Ashe, however her base is lower (2 lower, which admittedly isn’t so bad). The issue is that you’re actively harming her strongest aspect- her spell list- by putting her in a class that can’t use it, and she has no combat arts, other than Exhaustive Strike, which is Exhaustive Strike. My reasoning was at least with Felix’s talent he could keep using swords for actual damage and use Thoron occasionally for range, even if he’d rather just use a Levin Sword in Swordmaster instead. The only reason I’d see you ever using Hapi as a Wyvern other than just to try it  is if you have some restriction like all Wyverns or no mages, because there’s nothing that makes her stand out as a Wyvern- they work on almost anybody with a passable strength stat, but Hapi is decent enough on her own to not need Wyvern to contribute. If you just wanted to run a mage class and run axes on her as backup- say against high res enemies- would she be better off making use of her faith list or hitting said enemy for damage that may not even kill?

I can consider moving Felix or even the whole Black Mag Crit Gang down a bit closer to her, but I don’t think they’re worse than Constance or Mercedes. Hmm... How about moving Felix and Balthus below Mercedes? I can always move them back later if people want.

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7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Sylvain doesn’t get Thoron, at least according to Serenes Forest. He does get physic though, which is nice on magical builds.
I agree that the avoid is nice and helpful for durability, which is why it’s as high as it is (it was much lower originally, like below Felix). The reason I have it in rarely useful is the fact that most Sylvain builds won’t use magic, at least on maddening runs, whereas the tier above his is for budding talents where the skill can be used in one of the unit’s optimal class lines (Wyvern for Ashe, Sniper for Yuri, for example). I’m not familiar enough with magic Sylvain to know whether that would qualify as an optimal build for maddening- my only experience with Dark Knight Sylvain was on hard mode, where he was admittedly pretty bad. Hence it’s in rarely useful- good should you choose to build around it but there are certainly better paths for him to take. I can see an argument for him moving up, but I’ll leave him as is for the time being.

Ah good catch, I mixed Sylvain up with Ferdinand, who I'm raising to be a Dark Knight on my current Church playthrough. Ferdinand learns Thoron, Sylvain doesn't (he gets Fire, Bolganone, Sagittae, and Ragnarok). I sent Sylvain down a magic path on Maddening Blue Lions, and he was... okay. He's probably better as a Paladin or Wyvern Lord, but I've never used him as a physical class. Put it wherever you feel is appropriate, I'm just something of a sucker for +20 Avoid skills.

7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

My issue with Hapi is there is almost no reason to run her as a physical class. Her strength is surprisingly decent, as her growth is on par with Ashe, however her base is lower (2 lower, which admittedly isn’t so bad). The issue is that you’re actively harming her strongest aspect- her spell list- by putting her in a class that can’t use it, and she has no combat arts, other than Exhaustive Strike, which is Exhaustive Strike. My reasoning was at least with Felix’s talent he could keep using swords for actual damage and use Thoron occasionally for range, even if he’d rather just use a Levin Sword in Swordmaster instead. The only reason I’d see you ever using Hapi as a Wyvern other than just to try it  is if you have some restriction like all Wyverns or no mages, because there’s nothing that makes her stand out as a Wyvern- they work on almost anybody with a passable strength stat, but Hapi is decent enough on her own to not need Wyvern to contribute. If you just wanted to run a mage class and run axes on her as backup- say against high res enemies- would she be better off making use of her faith list or hitting said enemy for damage that may not even kill?

Ah, I was gonna mention her surprisingly-passable strength growth, but you beat me to the punch! Anyway, Hapi going Wyvern would be about mobility more than anything else. And I think she could get into some hijinks with her personal skill - now that she's in a class with more speed and bulk, you can have her lure Monsters wherever you want. Also, monster effectiveness would carry over, so she could get effective hits in with weapons like the Brave, Killer, and Devil Axes. For the record, I haven't used this build on Hapi yet, but I think she could do some interesting stuff with it, even if it isn't necessarily optimal. As for Felix, wouldn't he rather be using bows for ranged attacks? He has proficiency in them, and a chance to activate his crest (when not using combat arts). For 3-range, he can spend time in the Archer class, or just use a Longbow. Thoron would do more against Armors, I guess, and have higher hit... hm, interesting tradeoff. And as for the question at the end - rarely is there a reason for units in magical classes to wield a weapon. If she's staying a Mage, then her budding talent is of no use.

7 hours ago, Anathaco said:

I can consider moving Felix or even the whole Black Mag Crit Gang down a bit closer to her, but I don’t think they’re worse than Constance or Mercedes. Hmm... How about moving Felix and Balthus below Mercedes? I can always move them back later if people want.

The real tragedy is, Mercedes doesn't get a magical bow combat art. Also, how does the Tathlum Bow not do magical damage? It's mystifying. That said, her budding talent is worth it only if you're doing an off-brand Bow build on her. TBH all of them (Mercedes, Felix, Balthus, Constance) have pretty crap budding talents. I don't really care about the order, but I would continue to assert that Hapi is still in their league, at least. Just my take, though, really appreciate the discussion!

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ah, I was gonna mention her surprisingly-passable strength growth, but you beat me to the punch! Anyway, Hapi going Wyvern would be about mobility more than anything else. And I think she could get into some hijinks with her personal skill - now that she's in a class with more speed and bulk, you can have her lure Monsters wherever you want. Also, monster effectiveness would carry over, so she could get effective hits in with weapons like the Brave, Killer, and Devil Axes. For the record, I haven't used this build on Hapi yet, but I think she could do some interesting stuff with it, even if it isn't necessarily optimal. As for Felix, wouldn't he rather be using bows for ranged attacks? He has proficiency in them, and a chance to activate his crest (when not using combat arts). For 3-range, he can spend time in the Archer class, or just use a Longbow. Thoron would do more against Armors, I guess, and have higher hit... hm, interesting tradeoff. And as for the question at the end - rarely is there a reason for units in magical classes to wield a weapon. If she's staying a Mage, then her budding talent is of no use.

Touche on Felix with Bows- I kinda just forgot about them lol.

 

OK so I did the math because I have way too much time on my hands rn.

I've chosen to assume a Lvl 30 Hapi in Wyvern Lord in Chapter 16- the bridge map. I don't know how accurate that actually is, but oh well. This is what I get for not paying attention to when all my guys promote.

Hapi in this chapter has, on average, roughly 45 HP, 26 strength, 24 speed and 18 defence.

A demonic beast in this chapter has 88 HP (for the first 2 health bars), 48 total attack, 21 AS and 30 defence

I enjoy the idea of Brave Axe Hapi, admittedly, so I'll use that, especially considering its something nobody else can replicate.

A brave axe + has 13 might, and I believe her personal skill works like combat arts that deal effective damage in that the might is doubled- if that's wrong let me know. So a brave axe + will have 26 might against monsters.

With her average strength, death blow, the Immortal Corps battalion equipped (8 might at C rank is pretty nice, despite being VW exclusive. Anyway.), and strength +2, that comes out to 68 attack, which comes out to 38 x 2, unfortunately not enough to kill (though that's still pretty good damage). Because the brave axe weighs so much, I believe she gets doubled on retaliation, which will kill her without a guard adjutant or a shield.

So she does really good damage (not enough to kill, but I doubt many people could at this point, other than maybe a Brave combat art user with a killer weapon) and can bait monsters assuming she equips a lighter weapon. So overall this does perform a lot better than I expected it to do, admittedly.

My issue is still the fact that she needs to give up her spell list for this. Even if you just wanted flier mobility Dark Flier exists. And compared to somebody like Felix who can still use his physical weapons while being able to use magic- going the reason route may hinder his physical prowess but it doesn't outright remove it. But then magic Felix isn't anywhere near as potent as Brave Axe Hapi on monsters.

Hmm... OK. I concede. I'll move Hapi out of her tier to the bottom of rarely useful. 

And considering I'm slamming Hapi for her talent restricting her natural strengths I think it's fair to move Constance down a bit too. I'll put her above Hapi because at least Mystic Blow can substitute for her spells while she trains in brawling.

Goodbye UnHapi tier. You were the only good joke I ever made.

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10 hours ago, Anathaco said:

I believe her personal skill works like combat arts that deal effective damage in that the might is doubled- if that's wrong let me know

I don't know how it works exactly, but I don't think it worked exactly like CAs do. I used Lysithea as a comparison one time - there wasn't any difference between their Seraphim IIRC, and the gap in Miasma and Hades wasn't straightforwardly the Mt of the spell. It's been a while since I did that though, so I'd have to recheck to be sure.

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11 hours ago, Anathaco said:

OK so I did the math because I have way too much time on my hands rn.

Hey, thanks for doing the math that I was too lazy to! I wasn't expecting Hapi to be one-rounding monsters, but it sounds like she can still do a lot (admittedly, after the shield is broken). Conceivably, with those stats, she can knock out a full health bar with a Killer Axe (11 Mt, for 32 x 3), but that's hardly reliable. It's more likely with Smash (Hit +20, Crit +20) on the Killer Axe+ (35 base crit), but that's pretty expensive. Also, I don't think she'll be doubled in return with Darting Blow, but getting three masteries at this point is a lot to ask for, haha. On the flip side, giving her Immortal Corps is quite generous - on non-VW NG routes, she'll need to hit B Authority before getting nearly comparable battalions, like Galatea Pegasus Co (+7 Attack).

Regardless, I did enjoy the joke! I just think Hapi's talent, while quite bad, isn't a full tier below most of those in "rarely useful".

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On 7/29/2020 at 5:01 AM, Anathaco said:

Dorothea- Faith (White Mag Avo + 20)

While the ability itself isn't particularly useful, especially on Dorothea, I feel like unlocking Faith as a boon is important to Dorothea overall- she learns Physic, so can be a strong healer alongside Linhardt for BE. Additionally, if Dorothea wants to end as a Gremory (which, admittedly, I haven't used her enough to know if that's her best option or she'd rather end as a Warlock), she will definitely want Faith to be a boon of hers- especially since it starts as a bane.

I feel like this should be this should move down because it isn't the skill that is good, it is just faith turning from bane to boon that is good.

And any seal skills can probably go down a tier

 

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1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I don't know how it works exactly, but I don't think it worked exactly like CAs do. I used Lysithea as a comparison one time - there wasn't any difference between their Seraphim IIRC, and the gap in Miasma and Hades wasn't straightforwardly the Mt of the spell. It's been a while since I did that though, so I'd have to recheck to be sure.

I don’t think Seraphim stacks with Hapi’s personal- assuming it works the same way as, say, ridersbane with a knightkneeler (the damage will come out as 3 x the mt of the Ridersbane (So normal effective damage)+ the base might of Knightkneeler.) then only the highest multiplier occurs I guess? I’m not sure how Hapi’s skill works though, the page I relied on doesn’t mention her: https://fe3h.com/calculations#effective-damage

55 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Hey, thanks for doing the math that I was too lazy to! I wasn't expecting Hapi to be one-rounding monsters, but it sounds like she can still do a lot (admittedly, after the shield is broken).

I forgot completely about the shield lol.
...Whoops.

But yeah, I figured Immortal Corps was the best tool she could reasonably get at that point. Authority banes suck.

(Thank you for finding my joke funny).

 

@leesangstar10 I really need to work out how to edit quotes in on mobile. Anyway, faith being so helpful for Dorothea is why it’s as high as it is, though I could bump it down within that tier. I guess putting it closer to Flayn, who’s in that tier for the exact same reason, makes sense.

In terms of seal skills, I’m still not sure- I’ve had a lot of success with speed and strength. I haven’t used magic or movement but the skills that come with them are why I rate them so highly. A few people now have argued Ferdinand and Hilda to move down though, so maybe I’ll bump them to the top of usually and see how that pans out.

Edited by Anathaco

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I've never run a lance build for Marianne, so I might be missing something, but I'm curious what the attraction is for lances over swords for her? She starts out with a strength in swords, she gets soulblade which is probably slightly better for her than frozen lance given her res base and growth, and swords give her access to both levin swords and Blutgang later on, whereas for lances she will always be dependent on frozen lance (Arrow of Indra excepted, since that has awful availability). For lances, the only real long term benefit seems to be if you're looking to go into a class that requires lance skill for certification and/or gives lancefaire. Are you rating Frozen Lance purely as an early game tool that then gets dropped very quickly, or am I missing something?

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9 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I've never run a lance build for Marianne, so I might be missing something, but I'm curious what the attraction is for lances over swords for her? She starts out with a strength in swords, she gets soulblade which is probably slightly better for her than frozen lance given her res base and growth, and swords give her access to both levin swords and Blutgang later on, whereas for lances she will always be dependent on frozen lance (Arrow of Indra excepted, since that has awful availability). For lances, the only real long term benefit seems to be if you're looking to go into a class that requires lance skill for certification and/or gives lancefaire. Are you rating Frozen Lance purely as an early game tool that then gets dropped very quickly, or am I missing something?

I completely missed that Marianne got Soulblade, actually. Marianne has slightly better stats to use Soulblade, true, but a 5% growth and 2 base difference doesn’t make up for the higher might of both lances and Frozen Lance for a while, so the damage will always be pretty similar.

With that in mind, to answer your question, I put it as high as it is because of how good it is early game, how good it stays throughout the game, and the fact that a Dark/Holy Knight Marianne will want that lance boon. I didn’t take into account the fact that Soulblade gives swords a competition against lances, but since the damage is so similar, which one you choose just depends on the class you choose for her. So you could see frozen lance as an early game tool, but it holds up for a fair while against Soulblade, so I’d say it lasts longer than just the early game.
 

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8 hours ago, lenticular said:

I've never run a lance build for Marianne, so I might be missing something, but I'm curious what the attraction is for lances over swords for her? She starts out with a strength in swords, she gets soulblade which is probably slightly better for her than frozen lance given her res base and growth, and swords give her access to both levin swords and Blutgang later on, whereas for lances she will always be dependent on frozen lance (Arrow of Indra excepted, since that has awful availability). For lances, the only real long term benefit seems to be if you're looking to go into a class that requires lance skill for certification and/or gives lancefaire. Are you rating Frozen Lance purely as an early game tool that then gets dropped very quickly, or am I missing something?

Lances get high mt relics for flexibility and boss killing, and lancefaire is on better classes. As said above Soulblade using res rather than dex is only enough to account for the base difference between Frozen Lance and itself(you need a >3.5 difference to breach that), not the one between swords and lances; plus swordfaire classes tend not to give res while lancefaire ones do give dex, so while early on it compensates since monk and mage boost res more(she won't have soulblade as a monk though), the moment she moves into a faire class that kinda just disappears(as a lv 30 Paladin she has 20.6 Dex, and as a lv 30 Assassin she has 21.8 Res). And while the levin sword is nice to have, more consistent OHKOing with higher movement and canto trumps it, imo. Lances are also just in a better place on the weapon triangle, as they check evasive swordies with swordbreaker.

The Blutgang is actually not that special for magic combat arts since it has meh might for a relic; she also doesn't need to specialize in swords to use it, it's E rank. So it depends how much you care to make Beast fang stronger, keeping in mind that swords already get rapier+ for cavalry.

Edited by Cysx

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