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Path of Radiance Maniac Tier List Discussion

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You make it sound as though if I lose Oscar or Kieran late, that's as crippling, if not more so than losing Titania would be early on. That's bull. The earliest chapters in FE games tend to be the hardest ones, because you don't have the tools that you'd have later on. Even if those other characters you mentioned outclass her later on, that ain't enough to upend the fact that Titania is top dog in the hardest part of the game.

ay imao I literally just said that

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13 minutes ago, Crime and Punishment said:

Titania is hardly being competed against in all those first chapters, and it really takes Oscar a while to get going unless you're deliberately going out of your way to get him all those kills and Exp, which makes it easier to neglect the rest of your team (especially detrimental in MM, where there are like twice the amount of enemies). He definitely ends up better, but my point is that, at the end of the day, no one is competing against Titania for like 8 chapters straight, while Marcia/Oscar/Kieran/Jill are all competing against each other past that with the only real difference between them is having or not having flight.

Titania is easily the best character in the game in probably the hardest part of the game. You essentially need her, while past these points of the game, you can wing it with other characters and not really need to have to use Marcia, Oscar, Kieran or Jill.

I also don't recall BEXP being that huge until that jailbreak chapter (assuming you do things right)...

I dont think a prepromote carrying you through the first 8 chapters with 12 base strength makes them the best in the game, I think thats where we fundamentally disagree!  The games built to have a unit hold the trainees hand during the beginning like FE 7 and FE 8 but it doesnt make Titania the best unit for the rest of the game thats 20 more chapters of Maniac mode.  And its totally not true, you can not wing a Ironman play through on maniac mode with just any characters, you need those 4 mentioned, Im not saying Titania is trash obviously but dont you think you're over valuing a unit for being necessary through the early game? 

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34 minutes ago, Crime and Punishment said:

ay imao I literally just said that

I did start posting before you did, to be fair (or at least, I think I did). It took me a while to think of a phrasing that I consider satisfactory. And in the meantime, I was probably fooling around on other tabs as well.

15 minutes ago, FE Dragun said:

I dont think a prepromote carrying you through the first 8 chapters with 12 base strength makes them the best in the game, I think thats where we fundamentally disagree!  The games built to have a unit hold the trainees hand during the beginning like FE 7 and FE 8 but it doesnt make Titania the best unit for the rest of the game thats 20 more chapters of Maniac mode.  And its totally not true, you can not wing a Ironman play through on maniac mode with just any characters, you need those 4 mentioned, Im not saying Titania is trash obviously but dont you think you're over valuing a unit for being necessary through the early game? 

Seth is still considered the best unit in Sacred Stones despite that. Admittedly, Sacred Stones is one of the easiest FE games, but still.... At any rate, you still have to get through the earlygame before you can get to the later portions of the game.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I did start posting before you did, to be fair (or at least, I think I did). It took me a while to think of a phrasing that I consider satisfactory. And in the meantime, I was probably fooling around on other tabs as well.

Seth is still considered the best unit in Sacred Stones despite that. Admittedly, Sacred Stones is one of the easiest FE games, but still....

 Also this is Maniac mode with Ironman being heavily involved in my decision making since that is technically the way the game works, and this is my thread.  And yes if you get Titania killed in chapter 4 you are screwed but if Ike dies you lose the game so by that logic Ike is also the best. This game is so damn hard that not having Kieren or Oscar will be the death of you in late game and Titania doesnt need to kill everything to make it through those chapters she is there to clean up what the rookies cant. If Oscar dies Kieren and Ike become worse (Ike almost Useless unless he got maxed strength). So yes You cant win the game without Titania from chapters 1-7 but I dont think that makes her the best character. And Seth would get rocked In manaic mode that games too easy I think Titania could easily be Number 1 or 2 on hard mode but Maniac she just gets rocked late, you truly need every stat maxed out to perform at a high level.

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2 hours ago, FE Dragun said:

 Also this is Maniac mode with Ironman being heavily involved in my decision making since that is technically the way the game works, and this is my thread.  And yes if you get Titania killed in chapter 4 you are screwed but if Ike dies you lose the game so by that logic Ike is also the best. This game is so damn hard that not having Kieren or Oscar will be the death of you in late game and Titania doesnt need to kill everything to make it through those chapters she is there to clean up what the rookies cant. If Oscar dies Kieren and Ike become worse (Ike almost Useless unless he got maxed strength). So yes You cant win the game without Titania from chapters 1-7 but I dont think that makes her the best character. And Seth would get rocked In manaic mode that games too easy I think Titania could easily be Number 1 or 2 on hard mode but Maniac she just gets rocked late, you truly need every stat maxed out to perform at a high level.

One, I don't give a damn about ironman runs. It does nothing to change my viewpoint. Second, you're exaggerating Oscar's importance. Third, you're too fixated on the lategame and SHINY GREEN NUMBERS. Anyway, the fact that you stated that you had Oscar at level 14 by chapter 8 tells me you deliberately favored him. He starts at level 3 and would need two levels a chapter at least to get there when two of those chapters are heavy on axes (factoring in the fact that he's not available in chapters 3 and 4). That sounds rather dicey when even Ike, who's advantaged in those chapters, isn't doing so well.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

One, I don't give a damn about ironman runs. It does nothing to change my viewpoint. Second, you're exaggerating Oscar's importance. Third, you're too fixated on the lategame and SHINY GREEN NUMBERS. Anyway, the fact that you stated that you had Oscar at level 14 by chapter 8 tells me you deliberately favored him. He starts at level 3 and would need two levels a chapter at least to get there when two of those chapters are heavy on axes (factoring in the fact that he's not available in chapters 3 and 4). That sounds rather dicey when even Ike, who's advantaged in those chapters, isn't doing so well.

You just seem ignorant Im just stating thats the way I do my tier list its an opinion on a videogame lets maybe be more civil. Out of curiosity how many Maniac playthroughs have you done?

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8 hours ago, FE Dragun said:

you truly need every stat maxed out to perform at a high level.

List of all stats that Oscar caps on average at Lv.20/20:

  • Skl

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2 hours ago, ping said:

List of all stats that Oscar caps on average at Lv.20/20:

  • Skl

List of all stats that Titania caps on average at Lv.20/20: nothing and not even close

Id appreciate you trying to provide more view points rather than just trying to discredit mine. And if you think you've said enough in favor of Titania over Oscar leave it to the other member's to decide plenty of other characters to discuss, such as my 6-10 selections

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12 hours ago, FE Dragun said:

You just seem ignorant Im just stating thats the way I do my tier list its an opinion on a videogame lets maybe be more civil. Out of curiosity how many Maniac playthroughs have you done?

>"Let's be more civil"
>Uses an insult to start the same sentence

. . .Are you serious? Anyway, it stands to reason I'll take issue with your arguments because they either don't have much of a leg to stand on, don't make sense, or both. Like with Ike, for example. Him being locked to swords disqualifies him from being the best in the game, because it means he has no range (aside from Ragnell, which doesn't come until the end of the game), and is frequently facing WTD. As an aside, I don't buy Muarim being a top 10 unit either. As a laguz, he has the same issues as Ike, except he also has to deal with the downtime that comes with being a laguz (ergo, the fact that once he reverts, he's helpless until he transforms again), as well as being locked to a weapon that can't improve, which really bites when beorc start making the upgrade to silver weapons.

 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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From what I gather, the idea and concept of this thread is an Iron Man Tier List. Carving out the differences between Iron Man and Efficiency or Low Turn could give this actually some value, as Iron Man strategies aren't as established and discussed. Explaining which chapter massively differ and require a total different approach, a whole guideline ha to be established before knowing which units become better or wose.

As of now, this isn't going anywhere. There is a fundamental disagreement of what makes a unit useful. Those tanky units are surely good at surviving, but all the crucial units that are mandantory for swiftly winning are disregarded.

Edited by Aircalipoor

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12 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

From what I gather, the idea and concept of this thread is an Iron Man Tier List. Carving out the differences between Iron Man and Efficiency or Low Turn could give this actually some value, as Iron Man strategies aren't as established and discussed. Explaining which chapter massively differ and require a total different approach, a whole guideline ha to be established before knowing which units become better or wose.

As of now, this isn't going anywhere. There is a fundamental disagreement of what makes a unit useful. Those tanky units are surely good at surviving, but all the crucial units that are mandantory for swiftly winning are disregarded.

Well I think when discussing Viability personally I think you should include an Ironman mentality, because Marcia or Jill are amazing and can fly all the way to the objective and or boss, then complete the chapter easily, but if you fail you just restart so that's my issue, restarting is kind of cheating when discussing how good a unit is if you have to risk getting them killed for them to actually be good. It doesn't change what they are capable of but you most certainly add more of a chess strategy and really dissect your Units down to who is the most useful. And swiftly winning on Maniac mode is a death sentence unless you are in late game and have good EXP all around, the EXP is crucial due to the enemies having really high bases and all silver with 2 range, So I think Maniac Mode swift Wins are primarily out of the question until late game chapter 24 on something like that.

--

  

14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

>"Let's be more civil"
>Uses an insult to start the same sentence

. . .Are you serious? Anyway, it stands to reason I'll take issue with your arguments because they either don't have much of a leg to stand on, don't make sense, or both. Like with Ike, for example. Him being locked to swords disqualifies him from being the best in the game, because it means he has no range (aside from Ragnell, which doesn't come until the end of the game), and is frequently facing WTD. As an aside, I don't buy Muarim being a top 10 unit either. As a laguz, he has the same issues as Ike, except he also has to deal with the downtime that comes with being a laguz (ergo, the fact that once he reverts, he's helpless until he transforms again), as well as being locked to a weapon that can't improve, which really bites when beorc start making the upgrade to silver weapons.

 

I feel like I put a solid case up for Oscar over Titania, its fine you disagree but you are completely disregarding the points I put up, so to say I don't have much of a leg to stand on, doesn't make sense, or both, seems Ignorant to me but maybe what Im saying makes absolutely no sense and Oscar is bottom 5,  its debatable is all im saying, and I never said Ike was best im confused by your wording here but Ike is doo doo and not even top 20 or 25 most likely, which sucks because he is the coolest main character in the series. Maurim is very debatable and I would down grade him on Hard but Maniac, If you are Using Maurim (surely you gave him the Demi Band so transforming is not an issue) he is very basic but his bases and Join time just make him super usable throughout most of the game. As a unit you dont need to train and hits pretty hard as well as being a potential front liner he easily fits into a team, also the lack of forging on him is kind of a buff on maniac because I always find that you can never forge for everyone, and there as so many enemies with high bases you cant tear through without maxed out damage weapons so they dont last long, but its debatable whether Id put Volke or Geoffrey at 10 but Maurim grabs the spot for the reasons I mentioned, If Volke could do any Damage or didnt get Held back till CH 19 I would bump him way up.

Edited by Parrhesia

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I've only ever played the Western version so my only experience is with Hard Mode, though I'd assume similar arguments apply in Maniac from what I've seen of lets plays of that difficulty. 

For a tier list like this I personally just ask myself the question 'if I had to run an iron man and got to use only one of the two units I am comparing, which one would I use and why?'. With that in mind, my personal tier list would be :

S Tier:

1. Oscar. Yep, he's better than Titania in the harder versions of the game, and not by just a little either. Titania is noticeably more frail due to lacking his broken earth-earth support with Ike, and has worse defenses than Oscar as well. She will hit slightly harder through much of the game, but in the harder versions of the game it's more important to be able to tank through a ton of damage while you grind away at the hordes of enemies facing you than it is to one-round enemy generals. Losing Oscar in a hard mode / maniac mode run not only eliminates your best mid-game front-line unit, but also makes the rest of your front line decidedly more prone to dying (Ike and Kieren badly need his support to survive). He falls off a bit in late game but not nearly as hard as the other paladins do. 

2. Titania. I actually am not a huge fan of Titania (sacrilege, I know), in the sense that she is best at a point in time where I don't feel I need her. The early chapters aren't too difficult on hard mode, but the reason she still sits at number 2 on this list is that chapter 7 and non-cheese chapter 8 are incredibly difficult without her. Prior to getting access to the base she's just so far and away your strongest unit that losing her would hurt worse than, i.e. losing Ike in the final few chapters - though only by a little, I think. She becomes nearly useless once you hit like chapter 23 or so, as she stops OHKOing enemies and becomes too frail to be on the front line even at max level. The later chapters are longer and more difficult, so personally I consider her usefulness as being invaluable for 1/3 of the game, incredibly useful in the middle third, and then completely replaceable / borderline useless in the last third. 

3. Ike. This is where I'm probably going to diverge from most of you, as this forum seems to have some fetish for claiming Ike isn't a tremendous unit. I get that everyone is trying to be hip and edgy but the reality is that while Ike noticeably lags behind in chapters ~12-17 or so, he is your best front-line option outside of Oscar or Titania in the early levels, and is absolutely indispensable in the later levels. Additionally, even when he is at his weakest, he can provide invaluable dodge supports to the rest of your frontline. If you take Ike out of your team as a combat unit then you will struggle in every phase of the game outside of a few chapters in the mid-game where paladins can run rampant, and the late game chapters will become impossibly difficult in the harder modes. 

A Tier:

4. Marcia. Flying utility is amazing, but in the hardest modes of the game her combat starts to be a little suspect. She can't OHKO many enemy units, and if she isn't using the full guard then she will get one-hit by a variant of enemies (and if she is using the full guard then she can't be using something like the fighter band to buff her strength growth). That being said, there are tons of strategies that are impossible without a buff Marcia or Jill, and there's a reason that she's generally first pick in LTC or speedrun drafts. For this tier list I'm primarily considering iron man runs on hard / maniac modes, however, and I just don't think that Marcia really shines in safer playthroughs on harder difficulties. Also she has worse availability than any of the above units, as she can't help at all in the early game and will take a chapter or two of the early-mid game to get going. 

5. Jill. Basically the same as Marcia except she's harder to get going and get doubled by a lot of enemies early on, which makes her difficult to front-line with. She has worse availability than Marcia by a few crucial chapters as well. 

6. Reyson. Going through hard (or maniac) mode without Reyson sounds really awful. I've never tried it, admittedly, but he's such a great insurance policy that trying to run an iron man without him sounds incredibly taxing. Also joins roughly halfway through the game. 

7. Kieren. I know a lot of people love this guy (and I do too, honestly - he's so much fun to use!) his hit rates are pretty bad on harder difficulties and he doesn't have flying utility to make up for joining later than the top-tier picks in slots 1-3. 

B Tier:

8. Soren. His offensive prowess, tremendous growths, and long-range tome and staff utility make him useful throughout the game, but man does he suck in the early game - he is actively a liability if you're trying to train him for a few chapters, and takes way longer to get going in the harder difficulties. Additionally, he can never front line at all and has relatively poor movement, meaning he gets left behind on a lot of mid- and late-game chapters. A lot of the early chapters are set up for him to sit behind a front line and take kills, though, so in some sense the game pushes you to use him and he is easy enough to use even with mediocre growths. I will still use him in every single playthrough since he's my favorite character, but I'm not going to pretend that if it were an iron man I'd want him on my team over any of the A tier units. 

9. Lethe. She's really useful in tougher difficulties as her gauge is tremendous, she has great movement that can keep up with your paladin front-liners, and she can tank a lot while transformed. Laguz in general are pretty bad in the longer fights that hard / maniac mode cause, however, and so in that sense she needs other front-liners who are strong to be able to hide behind while she is untransformed. 

10. Boyd. He suffers a bit in hard mode as compared to normal, but he has a lot of potential as a secondary front-liner who can tank a hit or two but not five or six. He is with you the entire game, uses the best weapon type in the game, has good supports, and lots of offensive potential to help supplement the tankier, lower damage options you get like Oscar or Ike (pre-Ragnell). This pick vs. Astrid, Gatrie, Tanith, or Makalov was pretty tough and I'm open to changing this since I think there is a decent drop-off after Lethe. 

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On 8/2/2020 at 10:47 AM, Aircalipoor said:

From what I gather, the idea and concept of this thread is an Iron Man Tier List. Carving out the differences between Iron Man and Efficiency or Low Turn could give this actually some value, as Iron Man strategies aren't as established and discussed. Explaining which chapter massively differ and require a total different approach, a whole guideline ha to be established before knowing which units become better or wose.

As of now, this isn't going anywhere. There is a fundamental disagreement of what makes a unit useful. Those tanky units are surely good at surviving, but all the crucial units that are mandantory for swiftly winning are disregarded.

Even so, I'd say trying to sell Titania short in a Maniac discussion is not exactly smart. I watched a bit of a Maniac mode playthrough, and it really sunk in how much anyone not named Titania struggles early on. Ike is 3HKOed and 4-5HKOs back. Oscar needs something like 5 or 6 hits just to down an axe dude (which, by the way, are the majority of what you see in the first few chapters). Boyd really needs strength and speed asap to avoid being doubled.

On 8/2/2020 at 3:51 PM, FE Dragun said:

I feel like I put a solid case up for Oscar over Titania, its fine you disagree but you are completely disregarding the points I put up, so to say I don't have much of a leg to stand on, doesn't make sense, or both, seems Ignorant to me but maybe what Im saying makes absolutely no sense and Oscar is bottom 5,  its debatable is all im saying, and I never said Ike was best im confused by your wording here but Ike is doo doo and not even top 20 or 25 most likely, which sucks because he is the coolest main character in the series. Maurim is very debatable and I would down grade him on Hard but Maniac, If you are Using Maurim (surely you gave him the Demi Band so transforming is not an issue) he is very basic but his bases and Join time just make him super usable throughout most of the game. As a unit you dont need to train and hits pretty hard as well as being a potential front liner he easily fits into a team, also the lack of forging on him is kind of a buff on maniac because I always find that you can never forge for everyone, and there as so many enemies with high bases you cant tear through without maxed out damage weapons so they dont last long, but its debatable whether Id put Volke or Geoffrey at 10 but Maurim grabs the spot for the reasons I mentioned, If Volke could do any Damage or didnt get Held back till CH 19 I would bump him way up.

On the other hand, I feel you haven't met the burden of proof, which is on you, since you think Oscar is oh so amazing as to be the best unit in Maniac, and second, only one person actually told me how I could expect Ike and other non-Titania characters to do in Maniac mode earlygame - and it was not exactly good. Hint: It ain't you. So why does Oscar get all these glowing reviews, while you try to sell Titania short every opportunity you get??? Because as it is, I'm far more inclined to believe the other guy than you. RE: Muarim, I think that's bullshit. Laguz don't scale well in hard mode; why should I expect him to be a top performer in Maniac, where him being locked to a 9 might weapon is going to hurt even more, especially when your beorc units start packing silver (to say nothing of them having the option of effective weapons)?? Just to put things in perspective, Demi Banded Muarim only has 36 attack at max level - which is not exactly awe-inspiring. I cannot say how that does against final chapter enemies because we don't have stats. And this is all putting aside that max level tends to be unrealistic for most units. Oh, and fun fact: Maniac mode was beaten with 0% growths. 

15 hours ago, UncleSam said:

3. Ike. This is where I'm probably going to diverge from most of you, as this forum seems to have some fetish for claiming Ike isn't a tremendous unit. I get that everyone is trying to be hip and edgy but the reality is that while Ike noticeably lags behind in chapters ~12-17 or so, he is your best front-line option outside of Oscar or Titania in the early levels, and is absolutely indispensable in the later levels. Additionally, even when he is at his weakest, he can provide invaluable dodge supports to the rest of your frontline. If you take Ike out of your team as a combat unit then you will struggle in every phase of the game outside of a few chapters in the mid-game where paladins can run rampant, and the late game chapters will become impossibly difficult in the harder modes. 

I don't think Ike sucks, per se; the problem is more that he's sword-locked and infantry - two of the worst things to be in this game. That said, he is a solid unit in spite of this.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I don't think Ike sucks, per se; the problem is more that he's sword-locked and infantry - two of the worst things to be in this game. That said, he is a solid unit in spite of this.

I don't really see the point with infantry - he has good move for an infantry unit, and in harder modes it isn't like you can just charge way ahead in most maps anyway. Plus Ike is by far the best candidate for the boots in the game (though Reyson also really enjoys them and I don't think Ike should be judged in light of using the Boots). Sword-locked isn't great though, although I'd point out that there are some ranged sword options though Ike generally isn't great with them, and that Ike is strong and fast enough to OHKO most enemy units at 1 range regardless. Still, I do get that his not having good 1-2 range until he gets Ragnell does decrease his dominance in the late game. I just think that in an iron man he is more consistent if you train him at higher-end combat than any other options, since his avoid and earth affinity makes him so so much better in combat than someone like Marcia or Jill in hard or maniac mode, even with a silver sword or storm sword. 

Edited by UncleSam

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21 hours ago, UncleSam said:

I don't really see the point with infantry - he has good move for an infantry unit, and in harder modes it isn't like you can just charge way ahead in most maps anyway. Plus Ike is by far the best candidate for the boots in the game (though Reyson also really enjoys them and I don't think Ike should be judged in light of using the Boots). Sword-locked isn't great though, although I'd point out that there are some ranged sword options though Ike generally isn't great with them, and that Ike is strong and fast enough to OHKO most enemy units at 1 range regardless. Still, I do get that his not having good 1-2 range until he gets Ragnell does decrease his dominance in the late game. I just think that in an iron man he is more consistent if you train him at higher-end combat than any other options, since his avoid and earth affinity makes him so so much better in combat than someone like Marcia or Jill in hard or maniac mode, even with a silver sword or storm sword. 

Here's the thing - while being mounted was pretty much always an advantage in the Fire Emblem series, this game magnifies that; I would say this game is second only to Genealogy of the Holy War in terms of being favorable for mounts. Also, I would indeed argue that Reyson gets more out of the boots than Ike does.

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