Let's talk about OHKO Lorenz (and other Frozen Lance users)

[Owns]

Or rather I should say OHKO Frozen Lance, I just happen to be looking at Lorenz right now during my GD Madenning run. I think Lorenz is the most obvious character to use this build on but other characters who can learn Frozen Lance are Marianne, Hubert, Ingrid, and Flayn. I'll get into discussing each of them at the end.

 

I noticed during my current run that Frozen Lance is actually a pretty strong skill with high damage output. Especially when you pair it with one of the Effective spears like Horse Slayer, Spear of Assal, or Blessed Lance. Most commonly though, it will probably be used with a Silver Lance+ making it essentially a 17 mt spell (14 mt from the spear +3 might from the combat art itself). So I started considering building my Lorenz around just spamming this skill and to my pleasant surprise, it looks like he can eventually OHKO most physical and some magic class enemies with the right set up. I don't want to get too ahead of myself here and make any definitive claims though. As of now this is just hypothetical (hopefully sound at least), and I'm hoping others will chime in with their thoughts/experiences to either agree or disagree with this idea. Especially if you've already tried something like this before, I'd like to hear about your experience.

 

Damage Calculation

For the analysis I looked up the enemy stats from the final chapter (last 2 battles) using my previous BL saved states that I still have. I got examples of end game stats for Lorenz from those listed in the Builds Examples post. Here are the following stats and setup I used for the calculation:

 

Stats

• Dex: 28
• Mag: 32

 

Abilities

• Mag +2
• Fiendish Blow (+6 magic damage when attacking)
• Lancefaire (+5 mt with lances)
• Distinguished House (+2 Mt if battalion equipped, personal ability)

 

Setup

• Magic Staff (+3 Mag Attack)
• Gloucester Knights (+6 Mag Attack)
• Ferdinand Adjutant (special support with +3 mt)

 

The damage formula is:

(Weapon Mt. x Effectiveness) + (CA Mt.) + RoundDown(0.3 x Dex) + [Total Mag Attack] + [Bonuses]  - (Target Rsl.)

Here the (0.3 x Dex) comes from the way  Frozen Lance works.

CA Mt. = 3. It's just the mt of the combat art.

[Total Mag Attack] includes: Mag stat (32), Mag +2, Fiendish Blow (+6), Magic Staff (+3), and Mag Attack from battalion (+6).

[Bonuses] include: Lancefaire (+5), Distinguished House (+2), Ferdinand special support (+3)

 

I tested this formula in one of my current battles to be sure I have it right and it looks to be exact. The one thing I'm not 100% certain about is whether Lancefaire would apply to Frozen Lance. I'm unable to test that at the moment but I think it does.

 

Hopefully I haven't done anything embarrassingly dumb/wrong with these calculations, but here are the results from some example enemies in the BL Maddening final chapter (from both battles):

 

Unless they were on horseback, I didn't bother looking at magic class enemies, including mortal savant. Their resistance is so high that there's no point, but in the case of horses there are effective lances that can overcome that. Admittedly, that means a lot of enemies are left out since the BL end game is full of magic class enemies. Is the GD endgame similar in this way? Without spoilers pls. From the enemies I did include here, it's pretty clear that with this setup, and I think typical end game stats, Lorenz can OHKO many of them and quite a variety. Admittedly for some, just barely or even exactly, making it somewhat sensitive to his final stats in those cases (see hp and damage columns).

 

Thoughts:

The most important stat is obviously Mag, while Dex also factors into the damage of Frozen Lance. So the recommended path for this build is probably: Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Dark Bishop > Paladin / Dark Knight.

 

(REVISED PARAGRAPH) - Being in Paladin might be a requirement to OHKO some of these enemies since it gives you Lancefaire. However, going Dark Knight results in only an instant net loss of 3 damage since it provides +2 mag modifier. That said, in the long run, Dark Knight's boost to mag growth should result in higher damage in the long run after gaining some levels. One can later switch to a Paladin for Lancefaire after benefiting from the Mag growth. The damage output in some cases just barely gets him the OHKO (see hp and damage columns). However if you can get his Lance skill to S+, which is possible with some dedication, you can choose to either go double Lancefaire or, ideally stay in Dark Knight with both Lancefaire and Black Tomefaire to combine with his decent list of spells. It's always possible to squeeze out a little more damage from adjacency bonuses too from Hilda's PA (+3), Byleth's Sacred Power (+3), and any lord's Charm (+3). Getting 2 of those could make up for Lancefaire. In fact, Dark Knight automatically adds 2 Mag as a class modifier, so you only really need 1 of those adjacency bonuses to make up for Lancefaire to get the same amount of damage as a Dark Knight.

 

The nice thing about this build is that it can OHKO many physical units using ordinary weapons that only require smithing stones to forge/repair (silver lance+ and horse slayer). But for magic class cavalry and monsters you need Mythril for Spear of Assal and Blessed Lance which one might want to consider carefully before spending -4 endurance per hit.

 

Looking at Frozen Lance build candidates:

 

EDIT: A very important consideration when attempting this type of build is: How long does one need to spend in magic classes (to aid mag growth) before switching to a riding or flying class? The answer depends somewhat on the character and rng, but i'll offer a rule of thumb. If going as a riding final class, you'll be able to keep a significant Mag boost from battalions (I'm assuming +6 to +8). So you want your base Mag stat to reach a minimum of 28 by the end game to get at least some OHKO's on more vulnerable enemies. Ideally you want to get over 30. This is also assuming +3 mt from a special support, which if you don't have, then add +3 Mag to your base minimum. If however you're going for a flying class, I don't think there are any flying battalions offering Mag Attack boosts, in which case you want a minimum of 34 for your base Mag stat to even maintain at least some OHKO's in the end game. So you should judge based on your run whether the character should spend more time in a magic class or if they're doing okay. Stat boosters can obviously help. One thing you can do, though it can be inconvenient, is if the character is close to a level up before a battle, switch to the magic class for that battle to boost mag growth chances, then switch back to a riding/flying class afterwards. That said, anyone going along a traditional magic class path for example Monk > Mage > Warlock > Dark Knight, shouldn't really have to worry about this.

 

Finally, looking at other characters who might use this build. Bear in mind the paths I'm suggesting are not to be taken as said character's ideal path, simply the path I recommend if you want to focus on optimizing Frozen Lance specifically:

 

Like I mentioned before, Mag is the most important stat here and of the candidates, Flayn and Hubert have the highest mag growth at 55. Flayn also gets 2 possible special supports in Byleth and Seteth. Not the best adjutant, but comes already in a flying class and can add follow-up attack damage so not too bad either. If you build her along Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Pegasus Knight > Falcon Knight, then she'd have Lancefaire too and could potentially reach higher damage than anyone else with Frozen Lance. Dark Flier allows her to use magic but has neither Lancefaire nor a Mag stat modifier so depending on how high her natural Mag stat gets, might hinder her ability to OHKO with this. Dark Knight is another option but her weakness in riding makes it undesirable for her. The biggest concern with her and most of these characters is how fragile they are. Frozen Lance is a melee attack and even Canto might not allow her to always fly back to safety after attacking.

 

Hubert has a special support with Edelgard only. That's a little harder to guarantee the extra +3 mt than using an adjutant, but not too big of a deal. He too should be able to reach high damage with Frozen Lance and might surpass Lorenz's damage even without Lancefaire. Hubert is only neutral in Riding but that doesn't make Dark Knight too difficult to achieve. Just go Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Cavalry > Paladin* > Dark Knight.  His natural mag growth is good enough to spend less time in magic classes and more in cavalry/paladin to boost his riding while relying on frozen lance during that time. He too is a fragile character however. With his high mag growth and relatively easy access to riding, he might be the best character to pull this off with.

 

Marianne has a mag growth of 50 which is also very high. and can likely deal more damage than Lorenz with Frozen Lance, the major caution being just how fragile she is. Recommended path for her is the Dark Knight route (or even Holy Knight): Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Bishop / Cavalry / Paladin > Dark Knight / Holy Knight. Dark Knight has an extra point in Mag modifier over Holy. The advantage here being that she still has access to her spells, as well as access to Mag boosting battalions. She may want to use Paladin for Lancefaire if her damage is a bit shy of the OHKO threshold. Alternatively, she can be built similar to Flayn: Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Pegasus Knight > Falcon Knight. The major downside is that flying battalions don't offer a Mag boost, and depending on how her growth is going this might prevent her from achieving the OHKO threshold. While Marianne is also very fragile, she has decent enough speed to double as a decent evade tank if she goes the flying route. Alert Stance will likely be delayed, but she'll get it eventually.

 

Ingrid - (REVISED) - has a very low mag growth stat of only 35. As a result I doubt she will be able to get many OHKO's with Frozen Lance even if she does follow a magical path unless she gets mag blessed or you give her many boosters. Combined with the fact that flying battalions don't offer a Mag attack boost, she probably won't be doing anything useful with Frozen Lance in a flying class. Her low mag stat makes it super important to fully optimize her build and even then, I'm not entirely sure how well she'll do against anyone other than cavalry using an effective lance. So her suggested path for anyone who really wants to try it is: Monk* > Mage* > Warlock > Dark Knight. She has some decent Black Magic spells in Thoron and Fimbulvetr, both boosting Crit. So if you focus on maximizing her Dex she can follow a crit build and potentially deal some decent damage (maybe even use Killer Lance+ for Frozen Lance and land some crits there and use a Crit Ring instead of the Magic Staff). The added Dex also contributes a little to Frozen Lance damage. Ingrid also gets 2 special supports in Felix and Sylvain for a possible +6 mt although that's not easy to pull off. Never thought of Ingrid in this way before, could be an interesting option for her if someone wanted to try something different, but probably RIP if she doesn't land her crit against certain enemies lol.

 

Finally, back to Lorenz, the reason I say he might be the most obvious option to use this build for is simply because it lies along what is arguably already his best class progression path. He's not great at too many things. Also, his special support is with Ferdinand who can easily be built into an armored class making Lorenz a serviceable tank on top which is very useful when you're getting up close and personal. While his Def growth is higher than most of the other candidates, at 30%, it isn't exactly good. His Str is the highest of the bunch though, a decent 40%, which might allow to him avoid getting doubled a little better but I doubt it'll make a difference on Maddening. His HP growth on the other hand is one of the highest in the game at 55%, while the others in this group have abysmal HP. So again, while most of the others can potentially deal more damage, he will have higher survivability. And since his damage allows him to OHKO most of the same enemies, dealing even more damage is useless, while survivability remains valuable.

 

Well, I hope this offers an interesting idea to others. I haven't seen a lot of discussion of this ability myself. Has anyone already tried this kind of build before, and if so what was your experience like with it? Anyone know for sure if Lancefaire applies to Frozen Lance damage, or is able to confirm?

 

I will be doing this build for Lorenz in my current NG Maddening run of VW so I guess I'll be able to give a more concrete account later on about how good or bad it turned out. Also, if anyone noticed anything I've overlooked or did wrong with my calculations please do let me know. (Hopefully nothing so bad to make everything I said meaningless lol, that would be terrible after all this.)

Edited August 4, 2020 by Owns
some content revised. corrected special support bonus and marianne mag growth stat, updated image

[TheChoZenOne]

53 minutes ago, Owns said:

Or rather I should say OHKO Frozen Lance, I just happen to be looking at Lorenz right now during my GD Madenning run. I think Lorenz is the most obvious character to use this build on but other characters who can learn Frozen Lance are Marianne, Hubert, Ingrid, and Flayn. I'll get into discussing the candidates at the end.

 

I noticed during my current run that Frozen Lance is actually a pretty strong skill with high damage output. Especially when you pair it with one of the Effective spears like Horse Slayer, Spear of Assal, or Blessed Lance. Most commonly though, it will probably be used with a Silver Lance+ making it essentially a 17 mt spell (14 mt from the spear +3 might from the combat art itself). So I started considering building my Lorenz around just spamming this spell and to my pleasant surprise, it looks like he can eventually OHKO most physical and some magic enemies with the right set up. I don't want to get too ahead of myself here and make any definitive claims though. As of now this is just hypothetical (hopefully sound at least), and I'm hoping others will chime in with their thoughts/experiences to either agree or disagree with this idea. Especially if you've already tried something like this before, I'd like to hear about your experience.

 

Damage Calculation

For the analysis I looked up the enemy stats from the final chapter (last 2 battles) using my previous BL saved stats that I still have. As for example end game stats for Lorenz, I looked at examples listed in the Builds Examples post. Here are the following stats and setup I used for Lorenz:

 

Stats

• Dex: 28
• Mag: 32

 

Abilities

• Mag +2
• Fiendish Blow (+6 magic damage when attacking)
• Lancefaire (+5 mt with lances)
• Distinguished House (+2 Mt if battalion equipped, personal ability)

 

Setup

• Magic Staff (+3 Mag Attack)
• Gloucester Knights (+6 Mag Attack)
• Ferdinand Adjutant (special support with +5 mt)

 

The damage formula is:

(Weapon Mt. x Effectiveness) + (CA Mt.) + RoundDown(0.3 x Dex) + [Total Mag Attack] + [Bonuses]  - (Target Rsl.)

Here the (0.3 x Dex) comes from the way  Frozen Lance works.

CA Mt. = 3. It's just the mt of the combat art.

[Total Mag Attack] includes: Mag stat (32), Mag +2, Fiendish Blow (+6), Magic Staff (+3), and Mag Attack from battalion (+6).

[Bonuses] include: Lancefaire (+5), Distinguished House (+2), Ferdinand special support (+5)

 

I tested this formula in one of my current battles to be sure I have it right and it looks to be exact. The one thing I'm not 100% certain about is whether Lancefaire would apply to Frozen Lance. I'm unable to test that at the moment but I think it does.

 

Hopefully I haven't done anything embarrassingly dumb/wrong with these calculations, but here are the results from some example enemies in the BL Maddening final chapter (from both battles):

 

Unless they were on horseback, I didn't bother looking at mage type enemies, including mortal savant. Their resistance is so high that there's no point, but in the case of horses there are effective lances that can overcome that. Admittedly, that means a lot of enemies are left out since the BL end game is full of magic attack enemies. Is the GD endgame similar in this way? Without spoilers pls. From the enemies I did include here, it's pretty clear that with this setup, and I think typical end game stats, Lorenz can OHKO many of them and quite a variety. Admittedly for some, just barely or even exactly, making it somewhat sensitive to his final stats in those cases (see hp and damage columns).

 

Thoughts:

The most important stat is obviously Mag, while Dex also factors into the damage of Frozen Lance. So the recommended path for this build is probably: Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Dark Bishop / Paladin* > Dark Knight / Paladin.

 

Probably sticking with Paladin will be a requirement to OHKO some of these enemies since it gives you Lancefaire, switching to Dark Knight on certain maps where you prefer using spells. The damage output in some cases just barely gets him the OHKO (see hp and damage columns). However if you can get his Lance skill to S+, which is possible with some dedication, you can choose to either go double Lancefaire or ideally stay in Dark Knight with both Lancefaire and Black Tomefaire to combine with his decent list of spells. It's always possible to squeeze out a little more damage from adjacency bonuses too from Hilda's PA (+3), Byleth's Sacred Power (+3), and any lord's Charm (+3). Getting 2 of those could make up for Lancefaire. In fact, Dark Knight automatically adds 2 Mag as a class modifier, so you only really need 1 of those adjacency bonuses to make up for Lancefaire to get the same amount of damage as a Dark Knight.

 

The nice thing about this build is that it can OHKO many physical units using ordinary weapons that only require smithing stones to forge/repair (silver lance+ and horse slayer). But for magical cavalry and monsters you need Mythril for Spear of Assal and Blessed Lance which one might want to consider carefully before spending -4 endurance per hit.

 

Looking at Frozen Lance build candidates:

Finally, looking at other characters who might use this build. Bear in mind the paths I'm suggesting are not to be taken as said character's ideal path, simply the path I recommend if you want to focus on optimizing Frozen Lance specifically:

 

Like I mentioned before, Mag is the most important stat here and of the candidates, Flayn and Hubert have the highest mag growth at 55. Flayn also gets 2 possible special supports in Byleth and Seteth. Not the best adjutant, but comes already in a flying class and can add follow-up attack damage so not too bad either. If you build her along Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Pegasus Knight > Falcon Knight, then she'd have Lancefaire too and could potentially reach higher damage than anyone else with Frozen Lance. Dark Flier allows her to use magic but has neither Lancefaire nor a Mag stat modifier so depending on how high her natural Mag stat gets, might hinder her ability to OHKO with this. Dark Knight is another option but her weakness in riding makes it undesirable for her. The biggest concern with her and most of these characters is how fragile they are. Frozen Lance is a melee attack and even Canto might not allow her to always fly back to safety after attacking.

 

Hubert has a special support with Edelgard only. That's a little harder to guarantee the extra +5 mt than using an adjutant, but not too big of a deal. He too should be able to reach high damage with Frozen Lance and might surpass Lorenz's damage even without Lancefaire. Hubert is only neutral in Riding but that doesn't make Dark Knight too difficult to achieve. Just go Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Cavalry > Paladin* > Dark Knight.  His natural mag growth is good enough to spend less time in magic classes and more in cavalry/paladin to boost his riding while relying on frozen lance during that time. He too is a fragile character however.

 

Marianne has a mag growth of 45 which is still very good. She has a special support with Bernie making it possible to get the extra +5 mt. Arguably though, Bernie isn't the best adjutant character. Marianne too can potentially deal more damage than Lorenz with Frozen Lance, the major caution being just how fragile she is. Recommended path for this build: Monk* > Mage* > Warlock / Cavalry > Paladin* / Dark Knight. Or she could use the same as Flayn's path into a flying class, potentially sacrificing Bernie as an adjutant. While Marianne is also very fragile, she has decent enough speed to double as a decent evade tank if she goes the flying route. Problem being her Alert Stance will likely be delayed, but she'll get it eventually.

 

Ingrid has a very low mag growth stat of only 35. As a result I doubt she will be able to get many OHKO's with Frozen Lance even if she does follow a magical path unless she gets mag blessed or you give her many boosters. That said, doing so could fix her damage on player phase while she can still be a good evade tank. Even if she doesn't OHKO with Frozen Lance, raising her mag could allow her to finish off tough physical units or significantly hurt them. Using effective lances should still allow her to OHKO physical riders fairly easily though with Frozen Lance. Ingrid also gets 2 special supports: Felix and Sylvain for a possible +10 mt even if not easy to pull off. Never thought of Ingrid in this way before, could be an interesting option for her if someone wanted to try something different: Monk* > Mage* > Pegasus Knight* > Falcon Knight*. She gets Lancefaire too. Again here, delayed Alert Stance is something to consider.

 

Finally, back to Lorenz, the reason I say he might be the most obvious option to use this build for is simply because it lies along what is arguably already his best class progression path. He's not great at too many things. Also, his special support is with Ferdinand who can easily be built into an armored class making Lorenz a serviceable tank on top which is very useful when you're getting up close and personal. While his Def growth is higher than most of the other candidates, at 30%, it isn't exactly good. His Str is the highest of the bunch though, a decent 40%, which might allow to him avoid getting doubled a little better but I doubt it'll make a difference on Maddening. His HP growth on the other hand is one of the highest in the game at 55%, while the others in this group have abysmal HP. So again, while most of the others can potentially deal more damage, he will have higher survivability. And since his damage allows him to OHKO most of the same enemies, dealing even more damage is useless, while survivability becomes valuable.

 

Well, I hope this offers an interesting idea to others. I haven't seen a lot of discussion of this ability myself. Has anyone already tried this kind of build before, and if so what was your experience like with it? Anyone know for sure if Lancefaire applies to Frozen Lance damage, or is able to confirm?

 

I will be doing this build for Lorenz in my current NG Maddening run of VW so I guess I'll be able to give a more concrete account later on about how good or bad it turned out. Also, if anyone noticed anything I've overlooked or did wrong with my calculations please do let me know. (Hopefully nothing so bad to make everything I said meaningless lol, that would be terrible after all this.)

Thats very interesting. I noticed frozen lance being an a amazing combat art as well when my Marianne learned it in my current Maddening run. I didn't recall using it before on my previous playthroughs and she did some decent work with it so far!! A great combat art to have!!

[Anathaco]

I see no reason why Lancefaire shouldn't apply to Frozen Lance- it is still a lance attack, after all.

The other thing I noticed is you have the special adjutants listed as giving 5 might. While this is true at S rank, S rank is only available for Byleth on NG+, so the highest you can get is +3, from A rank. That only makes a difference for a few enemies as listed in the table though- the grappler in the final map and the war master in Enbarr.

Overall, yeah, I quite like Frozen Lance. I've used it with Hubert and Marianne and thought they were pretty good with it. I haven't tried Lorenz or the others, though I'm mid playthrough on GD and working towards it on Lorenz. Like a lot of builds it works best lategame, but the damage is still so good, and the skill is learned so early, that it can kick butt from basically the moment you get it.

[haarhaarhaar]

Just from personal experience, I've found Hubert and Marianne to do this build better than Lorenz. It's not like Lorenz can't do it, but Hubert in particular is likely to reach or even exceed mag stat thresholds, and gets Arrow of Indra making a lance build viable without relying on Frozen Lance. In my last CF run he was getting OHKOs without Lancefaire, but Lancefaire definitely helps, and Paladin should certainly be considered for his final class.

Marianne is also more likely to reach those thresholds (SF claims her mag growth is 50, not 45), and I think her offensive spell list with its lower accuracy encourages you to use Frozen Lance/Soulblade for her offense, despite the risk of counter. Falcon Knight is also a very good class (assuming you sacrifice her magic, Dark Knight Marianne will be slightly worse but still capable)

Frozen Lance Lorenz is fine, but he is definitely a bit less reliable. 32 Mag isn't unreasonable for Lv40 Lorenz, but it is less likely than for the others (on average Lorenz is expecting 28 Mag going Mage>Warlock>Dark Knight), and my Lorenz had intermittent problems securing KOs throughout the game. While I haven't played through AM endgame, I'm pretty sure VW has fewer threatening mages (enemy Mortal Savants are always a pain, there are a couple of minibosses in the endgame with good Res, but they aren't as threatening as the siege tome users in AM), so I still think this is possible for Lorenz with a bit of investment.

Ingrid is fairly bad at this in general, unfortunately. To be fair, I have never optimised her for Frozen Lance, but she wasn't getting OHKOs at all in my VW run. I tried optimising her for Hexblade in a different run and that also didn't get OHKOs. 

I wanted to try Flayn out with this build, but haven't had the opportunity yet. A Lances means that it takes her a while to start doing damage at all with lances, and she has a budding talent in Reason so it will take a bit of time to get Warlock. I'd personally recommend Priest > Mage (master) > Peg Knight (master) > Dark Flier > Falcon Knight for her progression, which will allow her to get her Flying and Sword proficiency up a little faster. Darting Blow isn't too important for Frozen Lance, but Triangle Attack is surprisingly good if you're able to set it up (Flayn can get a decent number of kills with it and a Killer Lance, though the counter is always a threat). 

Lorenz is bulkier than these guys (bar Ingrid maybe) but with Hubert and Marianne at least, you should be able to get the KO more often than not, so the counter is less of a fear. 

[Barren]

Interesting details on Frozen Lance, I'm going to try Falcon Knight Marianne on my BE/SS playthrough and see how she fares. I've already done Dancer/Holy Knight Marianne on my GD playthrough and had her as my Mortal Savant on the Blue Lions. So Falcon Knight is my next goal for her

[Owns]

  

9 hours ago, TheChoZenOne said:

Marianne learned it in my current Maddening run

Indeed. I honestly did not expect to ever say that Marianne can turn into a OHKO machine before doing this.

 

9 hours ago, Anathaco said:

The other thing I noticed is you have the special adjutants listed as giving 5 might. While this is true at S rank, S rank is only available for Byleth on NG+, so the highest you can get is +3, from A rank.

Ah, you're right, I did overindulge a bit there. Thanks for noticing this, I've corrected it and updated the calculations. I think unlike Lorenz, Hubert and Marianne can probably reach the OHKO threshold without fully optimizing Frozen Lance, but I'm hoping that Lorenz can get there too. It might change some of the opinions out there too about him being weak.

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Marianne is also more likely to reach those thresholds (SF claims her mag growth is 50, not 45),

Indeed, I must've just looked at the wrong row. Corrected. Thanks for pointing this out. About the rest of your comment, I'm glad to see that my analysis largely agrees with your experience too. You're right about Lorenz's mag stat potentially not getting over the OHKO threshold, he might need a bit of favoritism to pull this off, on average. Now that I think about it, it might actually be better for him to slot into Dark Knight asap instead of staying in Paladin. This would push his mag growth to 50% instead of 40% helping raise his mag further. It would sacrifice Lancefaire but only loses net 3 damage, which will probably be more than made up for over 10 level gains at 50% growth. One can decide as they go depending on how his mag is doing during the run.

Edit:

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

A Lances means that it takes her a while to start doing damage at all with lances, and she has a budding talent in Reason so it will take a bit of time to get Warlock. I'd personally recommend Priest > Mage (master) > Peg Knight (master) > Dark Flier > Falcon Knight for her progression, which will allow her to get her Flying and Sword proficiency up a little faster.

Oh and good points about Flayn, you might be right about this being a better path for her. Her Mag is high enough too to likely not need the Mag +2 from Monk, nor spend too much time in magic classes.

 

2 hours ago, Barren said:

Interesting details on Frozen Lance, I'm going to try Falcon Knight Marianne on my BE/SS playthrough and see how she fares. I've already done Dancer/Holy Knight Marianne on my GD playthrough and had her as my Mortal Savant on the Blue Lions. So Falcon Knight is my next goal for her

Good luck, honestly it sounds like a fun path for her. Clearly you're a fan of this character too 😀

Edited August 2, 2020 by Owns

[DriftingWaterBottle]

Thank you for the detailed topic! I too am considering doing FK Marianne with FL for my CF run. I was also looking for alternative builds for Ingrid, and going magic CA looks pretty fun for variety since I play on lower difficulties. 

By the way, I'm not sure that Marianne can benefit from Might+3 with adj. Bernie, since they don't actually have a support chain, thus can only have the basic Avo/Hit +3. The same goes with Hilda x Dorothea I believe. 

[Myssdii]

In my latest VW maddening NG run, I've used both Marianne and Lorenz as Frozen Lance users. They've ended up really different, and their strong points were at different periods of time in terms of pure damage output.

Basically, in the beginning of the game when they've both mastered mage, their Frozen Lance output is pretty similar, they are reliable for kills, and you can start unlocking Cavalier and Pegasus Knight for Lorenz and Marianne respectively. When Lorenz unlocks Paladin, his damage output is slightly superior: he gets Lancefaire and his passive, and Marianne is still stuck with Pegasus Knight (unless you also train her in riding, but it hinders her progression in flying, lances and sword ranks), so it's a trade.

Marianne has better magic growth than Lorenz, so in the end game and after unlocking Falcon Knight for Lancefaire, she'll outdamage him. But before that, it's pretty much a trade between Paladin!Lorenz slightly higher damage output, and Pegasus!Marianne mobility as a flyer. Marianne got a lot of MVP ranks before the timeskip as a Pegasus Knight.

I still trained Marianne in swords as her speed was actually really good (I always end up with speed-blessed Marianne in all of my runs), and in the final chapters she was really reliable at doubling axe wielders and snipers with Blutgang without risking too much. Frozen Lance was missing most OHKO for both, unless I used Horseslayer/Blessed Lance/Spear of Assal damage effectiveness, but while Marianne was still able to double with swords, Lorenz was also filling as an amazing tank unit (with some help from stat boosters in HP and a bit in def). To note: I was slightly underleveled on most of my units since I was warp-skipping a lot of maps post-timeskip. See spoiler for final map stats on both.
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Barren]

22 hours ago, Owns said:

Good luck, honestly it sounds like a fun path for her. Clearly you're a fan of this character too 😀

I do like her a lot I won't deny it. Her voice is cute. Seeing the favorite FE lines video the other day and seeing Xanthe Huynh do her voice was amazing to see. Aside from favoritism, I do see a lot of potential options for her and I'm currently playing these routes on normal mode just to experiment around and see what I think of them

6 hours ago, DriftingWaterBottle said:

Thank you for the detailed topic! I too am considering doing FK Marianne with FL for my CF run. I was also looking for alternative builds for Ingrid, and going magic CA looks pretty fun for variety since I play on lower difficulties. 

By the way, I'm not sure that Marianne can benefit from Might+3 with adj. Bernie, since they don't actually have a support chain, thus can only have the basic Avo/Hit +3. The same goes with Hilda x Dorothea I believe. 

I have tried Dark Flier Ingrid and she was fun but unless you pump magic into her she would have similar issues in terms of her offensive growth. Though her spell list is pretty decent. She does get Physic which can be nice on a flier and Blizzard, Thoron, Fimbulvetr are decent spells but you would want either Caduceus Staff or Thyrsus if you want Ingrid to be more effective as a mage unit. Also, getting her to master Warlock to get Bowbreaker imo is worth going for if you're going to make her a Dark Flier since you'll just be spamming magic anyways

[DriftingWaterBottle]

52 minutes ago, Barren said:

I have tried Dark Flier Ingrid and she was fun but unless you pump magic into her she would have similar issues in terms of her offensive growth. Though her spell list is pretty decent. She does get Physic which can be nice on a flier and Blizzard, Thoron, Fimbulvetr are decent spells but you would want either Caduceus Staff or Thyrsus if you want Ingrid to be more effective as a mage unit. Also, getting her to master Warlock to get Bowbreaker imo is worth going for if you're going to make her a Dark Flier since you'll just be spamming magic anyways

Thank you for the tip! ^^ I was considering going Valkyrie for Uncanny Blow before ending at Dark Flier, but Bowbreaker with Dark Flier is an interesting option too. Either way, like you said, I won't expect her to be the heavy hitter of the team. 

[Barren]

10 minutes ago, DriftingWaterBottle said:

Thank you for the tip! ^^ I was considering going Valkyrie for Uncanny Blow before ending at Dark Flier, but Bowbreaker with Dark Flier is an interesting option too. Either way, like you said, I won't expect her to be the heavy hitter of the team. 

Uncanny Blow is a good skill but that would mean you would to invest into riding. Plus I'm assuming you're taking her down to monk, mage, pegasus knight, warlock/dark flier? It's a path I tend to take because it takes less time. I mean I guess you could go for riding at C+ rank if you want the minimum requirements. I haven't tested it out the valkyrie path line for her so maybe you could make it work if you're not going to invest heavily into flying

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

8 hours ago, Myssdii said:

In my latest VW maddening NG run, I've used both Marianne and Lorenz as Frozen Lance users. They've ended up really different, and their strong points were at different periods of time in terms of pure damage output.

Basically, in the beginning of the game when they've both mastered mage, their Frozen Lance output is pretty similar, they are reliable for kills, and you can start unlocking Cavalier and Pegasus Knight for Lorenz and Marianne respectively. When Lorenz unlocks Paladin, his damage output is slightly superior: he gets Lancefaire and his passive, and Marianne is still stuck with Pegasus Knight (unless you also train her in riding, but it hinders her progression in flying, lances and sword ranks), so it's a trade.

Marianne has better magic growth than Lorenz, so in the end game and after unlocking Falcon Knight for Lancefaire, she'll outdamage him. But before that, it's pretty much a trade between Paladin!Lorenz slightly higher damage output, and Pegasus!Marianne mobility as a flyer. Marianne got a lot of MVP ranks before the timeskip as a Pegasus Knight.

I still trained Marianne in swords as her speed was actually really good (I always end up with speed-blessed Marianne in all of my runs), and in the final chapters she was really reliable at doubling axe wielders and snipers with Blutgang without risking too much. Frozen Lance was missing most OHKO for both, unless I used Horseslayer/Blessed Lance/Spear of Assal damage effectiveness, but while Marianne was still able to double with swords, Lorenz was also filling as an amazing tank unit (with some help from stat boosters in HP and a bit in def). To note: I was slightly underleveled on most of my units since I was warp-skipping a lot of maps post-timeskip. See spoiler for final map stats on both.
 

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You know, I was considering using either of these two as a Dancer for whatever GD Maddening run I do. Lorenz doesn’t have much else to be other than becoming a Dark Knight or using something like the build above.
One thing I’d like to say is that Marianne might be able to utilize a mix of Soul Blade (or Frozen Lance, better to choose one or the other) and her magical utility as a Dark Flier, but I’m not sure if that’s spreading her too thin.

[Owns]

12 hours ago, Barren said:

She does get Physic which can be nice on a flier and Blizzard, Thoron, Fimbulvetr are decent spells but you would want either Caduceus Staff or Thyrsus if you want Ingrid to be more effective as a mage unit.

In my BL run, I used a crit build for Ingrid and I found that fixes her damage, I'd argue better (or at least more easily) than anything else. She still won't get ORKO's on tough physical enemies, but she can do it if she lands at least 1 crit from her fairly consistent double attacks against weaker enemies like mages and archers (of which there's aplenty in the AM route). Can't remember but maybe even ORKO cavalry units with a rapier. For context, I did this using mostly swords but she also had a killer lance and Luin. Even her spell list has a crit focus and her Dex growth is decent, but not exceptional at 40%, so I get the sense she was designed with crits in mind. It worked fairly well for me switching between crit/evasion rings as needed. Dex boosters and Sword Crit +10 help too.

"Landing at least 1 crit" might sound like a lot to ask, but it's not really. Take Cursed Ashiya Sword+, that alone has a crit stat of 50. Similarly Wo Dao+ has a crit of 40 (and is much lighter, better if you need to dodge afterwards). This is before factoring in Dex, Crit Ring, and Sword Crit +10. Let's assume her crit value when attacking is 50 and she can double. That's a true hit of 50.5, then the odds of getting at least 1 crit (out of 2 hits) is 69.75% (assuming they both hit). I don't usually stake her life on it and I think to ensure her safety I often went with an evasion ring and Crused Ashiya Sword+, getting a crit chance closer to a high 30, low 40, depending on the enemy. For some reason crit 36 is popping in my head, to use it as an example, true hit = 26.28, chance of at least 1 crit = 45.6%. For me, that's honestly not bad at all when the consequences of missing are very low since she's an evade tank. If you think of the ORKO as just a bonus (as opposed to an expectation), I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how often it does happen, or at least that's how I feel.

19 hours ago, DriftingWaterBottle said:

Thank you for the detailed topic! I too am considering doing FK Marianne with FL for my CF run. I was also looking for alternative builds for Ingrid, and going magic CA looks pretty fun for variety since I play on lower difficulties. 

By the way, I'm not sure that Marianne can benefit from Might+3 with adj. Bernie, since they don't actually have a support chain, thus can only have the basic Avo/Hit +3. The same goes with Hilda x Dorothea I believe. 

@DriftingWaterBottle You're welcome, glad you found it interesting. Wait, what? Then why's Bernie listed as a special support for Marianne? I checked my game and indeed she isn't even listed in her support list! This is a bit of a shock to me because, well I checked special support before starting this run and although I'm not planning on using Bernie as an adjutant or even at all during this run, I thought I'd be unlocking some interesting supports between these two recluses. The idea of them forming a special bond just felt nice. I recruited Bernie and never really bothered checking the support list lol, thanks for pointing this out, as disappointing as it is.

18 hours ago, Myssdii said:

In my latest VW maddening NG run, I've used both Marianne and Lorenz as Frozen Lance users. They've ended up really different, and their strong points were at different periods of time in terms of pure damage output.

Basically, in the beginning of the game when they've both mastered mage, their Frozen Lance output is pretty similar, they are reliable for kills, and you can start unlocking Cavalier and Pegasus Knight for Lorenz and Marianne respectively. When Lorenz unlocks Paladin, his damage output is slightly superior: he gets Lancefaire and his passive, and Marianne is still stuck with Pegasus Knight (unless you also train her in riding, but it hinders her progression in flying, lances and sword ranks), so it's a trade.

Marianne has better magic growth than Lorenz, so in the end game and after unlocking Falcon Knight for Lancefaire, she'll outdamage him. But before that, it's pretty much a trade between Paladin!Lorenz slightly higher damage output, and Pegasus!Marianne mobility as a flyer. Marianne got a lot of MVP ranks before the timeskip as a Pegasus Knight.

I still trained Marianne in swords as her speed was actually really good (I always end up with speed-blessed Marianne in all of my runs), and in the final chapters she was really reliable at doubling axe wielders and snipers with Blutgang without risking too much. Frozen Lance was missing most OHKO for both, unless I used Horseslayer/Blessed Lance/Spear of Assal damage effectiveness, but while Marianne was still able to double with swords, Lorenz was also filling as an amazing tank unit (with some help from stat boosters in HP and a bit in def). To note: I was slightly underleveled on most of my units since I was warp-skipping a lot of maps post-timeskip. See spoiler for final map stats on both.
 

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@Myssdii thank you for sharing your experience and I think it does help to plan this type of build out. Firstly, yes the build does assume reaching Lv 40 or so in the final chapter, so your stats are unsurprisingly low. But even then it raises the issue of how long does the character need to remain in magic classes to pull this off reliably? I think the best rule of thumb I can give based on the calculation is that you'll want to reach a minimum of 28 Mag to be able to OHKO at least some of the more vulnerable or lower HP enemies (almost anyone apart from grapplers and war masters who have very high hp). This is also assuming a battalion that boosts Mag Attack. In the example I used Gloucester Knights who give +6 Mag Attack. There are other magic battalions that reach up to +8 Mag Attack. However, and this is an important point I didn't address in the OP, I don't believe any flying battalions offer Mag Attack, meaning if you're going flying you want to reach at least 34 base Mag stat. This is easy (low even) for most magic-attuned characters nearing Lv 40 along a magic classes progression, but if you switch to a flying/riding class too early it might be difficult. I think anyone planning to do this kind of build should keep this important point in mind and feel it out as they go (@Barren, @DriftingWaterBottle). For the signficant Mag Attack you can get from battalions alone, that automatically makes the riding classes Dark Knight or even Holy Knight easier options to pull this off with than any flying class (Unless there's some flying Mag boosting battalions I'm unaware of).

For your lv35 Lorenz here, had you maximized his Mag Attack with Mag +2, Magic Staff, and say Alliance Sages (+8) instead of Gloucester Knights, then you could still OHKO the majority of the enemies listed above (assuming special support for +3 mt). Sticking with Gloucester Knights and without Ferdinand though, you're only going to OHKO the sniper and 3 cavalries from that list.

As for your lv36 Marianne, yea she's not OHKO'ing anyone with those stats because she's missing out a lot on a Mag battalion. She'd need at least 34 Mag to start OHKO'ing the weakest few.

I've revised the OP to reflect some of these new considerations. Completely overhauled the suggestion for Ingrid, among other changes marked by either EDIT or REVISED.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Owns

[Myssdii]

3 hours ago, Owns said:

 

@Myssdii thank you for sharing your experience and I think it does help to plan this type of build out. Firstly, yes the build does assume reaching Lv 40 or so in the final chapter, so your stats are unsurprisingly low. But even then it raises the issue of how long does the character need to remain in magic classes to pull this off reliably? I think the best rule of thumb I can give based on the calculation is that you'll want to reach a minimum of 28 Mag to be able to OHKO at least some of the more vulnerable or lower HP enemies (almost anyone apart from grapplers and war masters who have very high hp). This is also assuming a battalion that boosts Mag Attack. In the example I used Gloucester Knights who give +6 Mag Attack. There are other magic battalions that reach up to +8 Mag Attack. However, and this is an important point I didn't address in the OP, I don't believe any flying battalions offer Mag Attack, meaning if you're going flying you want to reach at least 34 base Mag stat. This is easy (low even) for most magic-attuned characters nearing Lv 40 along a magic classes progression, but if you switch to a flying/riding class too early it might be difficult. I think anyone planning to do this kind of build should keep this important point in mind and feel it out as they go (@Barren, @DriftingWaterBottle). For the signficant Mag Attack you can get from battalions alone, that automatically makes the riding classes Dark Knight or even Holy Knight easier options to pull this off with than any flying class (Unless there's some flying Mag boosting battalions I'm unaware of).

For your lv35 Lorenz here, had you maximized his Mag Attack with Mag +2, Magic Staff, and say Alliance Sages (+8) instead of Gloucester Knights, then you could still OHKO the majority of the enemies listed above (assuming special support for +3 mt). Sticking with Gloucester Knights and without Ferdinand though, you're only going to OHKO the sniper and 3 cavalries from that list.

As for your lv36 Marianne, yea she's not OHKO'ing anyone with those stats because she's missing out a lot on a Mag battalion. She'd need at least 34 Mag to start OHKO'ing the weakest few.

I've revised the OP to reflect some of these new considerations. Completely overhauled the suggestion for Ingrid, among other changes marked by either EDIT or REVISED.

The Nuvelle Fliers Corps is the only magic flying battalion (tied to Constance/Yuri paralogue with DLC), so she had a +7 mag boost that helped a lot. She was in range for kills on some units, but not everything. To be honest, the only units in my underleveled team that were capable of one-round every unit in the map (apart from Nemesis) were Ignatz, Claude and Byleth with crit builds XD

To note: Lorenz might bonus with Ferdinand is only +2 as his support with him is limited to B. I could have optimized Lorenz more for offense with what you said (I had the resources), but I liked the extra bulk on him provided by the Gloucester Knights and the shield. With how underleveled I was, Lorenz was the only unit capable of choke point blocking at the beginning of the final map, which proved extremely useful with how much units you need to handle in the first 2-3 turns. I also had a dodgetank Claude, but it was difficult for him to handle all sides at the same time, so Lorenz filled in ^^

[haarhaarhaar]

9 hours ago, Owns said:

Firstly, yes the build does assume reaching Lv 40 or so in the final chapter, so your stats are unsurprisingly low. But even then it raises the issue of how long does the character need to remain in magic classes to pull this off reliably? I think the best rule of thumb I can give based on the calculation is that you'll want to reach a minimum of 28 Mag to be able to OHKO at least some of the more vulnerable or lower HP enemies (almost anyone apart from grapplers and war masters who have very high hp). This is also assuming a battalion that boosts Mag Attack. In the example I used Gloucester Knights who give +6 Mag Attack. There are other magic battalions that reach up to +8 Mag Attack. However, and this is an important point I didn't address in the OP, I don't believe any flying battalions offer Mag Attack, meaning if you're going flying you want to reach at least 34 base Mag stat. This is easy (low even) for most magic-attuned characters nearing Lv 40 along a magic classes progression, but if you switch to a flying/riding class too early it might be difficult. I think anyone planning to do this kind of build should keep this important point in mind and feel it out as they go (@Barren, @DriftingWaterBottle). For the signficant Mag Attack you can get from battalions alone, that automatically makes the riding classes Dark Knight or even Holy Knight easier options to pull this off with than any flying class (Unless there's some flying Mag boosting battalions I'm unaware of).

I just did the calculations for Falcon Knight Marianne's Frozen Lance OHKOs for VW endgame in a different thread, and discovered that even with Nuvelle Fliers, her average stats at Lv40 (which are 32 Mag, 28 Dex) meant she was OHKOing very little by endgame. Even if Lorenz will get a +1 atk boost from running a different battalion and a +2 boost from Ferdinand Adjutant, Dark Knight Lorenz at Lv40 is on average expecting base 28 Mag, 26 Dex. Which means even with Lance of Ruin, he is almost completely shut out of getting any KOs. If he spends 10 levels in DK then switches back to Paladin, then he'll get an early assassin and the first bars of Flying Birds, but that's it.

Basically that means you want RNG-blessing and a ton of stat-boosters/over-leveling if you want to run an effective Frozen Lance Lorenz for endgame. Not impossible though (and he should still get some OHKOs before that point). 

Edited August 4, 2020 by haarhaarhaar

[Owns]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:43 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I just did the calculations for Falcon Knight Marianne's Frozen Lance OHKOs for VW endgame in a different thread, and discovered that even with Nuvelle Fliers, her average stats at Lv40 (which are 32 Mag, 28 Dex) meant she was OHKOing very little by endgame. Even if Lorenz will get a +1 atk boost from running a different battalion and a +2 boost from Ferdinand Adjutant, Dark Knight Lorenz at Lv40 is on average expecting base 28 Mag, 26 Dex. Which means even with Lance of Ruin, he is almost completely shut out of getting any KOs. If he spends 10 levels in DK then switches back to Paladin, then he'll get an early assassin and the first bars of Flying Birds, but that's it.

Basically that means you want RNG-blessing and a ton of stat-boosters/over-leveling if you want to run an effective Frozen Lance Lorenz for endgame. Not impossible though (and he should still get some OHKOs before that point). 

Ah so Lorenz just doesn't have enough mag to pull it off without hassle? What about a Dark/Holy Knight Marianne? Hard for me to tell without knowing the enemy stats of VW. Do you know if enemy stats are available anywhere? Would be great for theorizing builds to have this information.

Edit: Found the thread you mentioned and link with enemy stats. Looked at a few of them and they seem to have significantly higher HP and Rsl in VW's final battle compared to AM, which is interesting. Maybe balanced around Lysithea. A few direct comparisons

Lv 50 Grappler:

• AM - Rsl 17, HP 69
• VW - Rsl 19, HP 72, needing total of 5 extra mag attack to kill.

Lv 50 Fortress Knight:

• AM - Rsl 8, HP 72
• VW - Rsl 13, HP 81, needing total of 14 extra mag attack to kill.

Lv 50 Sniper:

• AM - Rsl 18, HP 57
• VW - Rsl 26, HP 66, needing total of 17 extra mag attack to kill.

So yea this screws the whole OHKO with Frozen Lance idea for the VW route 🤪. But this is interesting, makes one wonder what it means to borrow certain units from other houses for a particular route.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Owns

[Myssdii]

Verdant Wind endgame enemy stats are off the charts... But these builds are pretty good for the vast majority of the game, don't expect any magical unit to get one shots on the final map though.

Even my 46 magic Lysithea with Dark Spikes couldn't OS a regular Paladin on this map... They're broken... You should rely on other units to get kills on this map.

[Owns]

16 hours ago, Myssdii said:

Verdant Wind endgame enemy stats are off the charts... But these builds are pretty good for the vast majority of the game, don't expect any magical unit to get one shots on the final map though.

Even my 46 magic Lysithea with Dark Spikes couldn't OS a regular Paladin on this map... They're broken... You should rely on other units to get kills on this map.

Ah this is a good point. I probably shouldn't let the final map alone determine how good/bad a build is. It's important of course but there's usually a big jump in enemy stats in the final 1-2 battles that overshadow what builds were capable of doing until then.