Male or Female Avatars for Canon/Default apearences in future games

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

In another discussion, I realized that many of the Avattars in recent FE games, since Kris, have a "default" gender which they appear as in following work. From everything except for Heroes, which is a whole other beast I'll address shortly, Male Robin has been the most common representation of the character. Even in the opening cinematic, we can see robin looking mostly male. Smash is the primary culprit of this following, but even many years after his/her introduction, it's stayed somewhat consistent. Of course, with Fates it's a bit more difficult to determine. On the box art, both Corrins, or Kamui, appear. Male Corrin appears to have come to represent Birthright, and thanks to following appearances, Female Corrin has come to represent Conquest and the game as a whole. Smash is an anomaly with Corrin, as it uses the male variant. Afterward, in every instance, Female Corrin has become the standard. Personally I prefer this, as I think the design fits better for her, (and I own the Figma, but that's beside the point). Then there's Heroes. Of course the female variants have gotten the most alts, as it's a waifu gotta catch 'm all, so I feel that it doesn't really matter which is favored in Heroes. Finally, there's Byleth. They haven't had many set appearances outsude of thier own game. Of course, there's Smash, but again, it seems they chose the male default. Personally, From what I've seen, most players are chosing female Byleth to represent him/her in outside works. This could simply be an example of waifuism, but there could be more of something there. I guess, I'm indifferent, as while my first play through was with Male Byleth, but in smash, I always use female Byleth, so I'm curious what all of you think? What do you think about default genders for the avatars, and which do you think Byleth will be seen as in future spinoffs?

[Samz707]

I guess Female?

Granted I pretty much only play Female since Pegasus Rider and it's promotion Falcon Knight (even if it's really only the Echoes version.) are some of my favourite units and so I pick them if possible.

[Mylady]

Female. Only because there's a lack of good female lords THAT aren't sidelined,  outshined or treated in a bad light.

I'd rather though, to have a game with a solo female lord - like Chrom or Marth, or two female lords - like Seliph and Sigurd. Because, after all, avatar's gender is never fixed and always open to discussion, regardless if one gender is default or more popular. 

 

Ps: I know that  Robin and Kris are lords in Chrom and Marth's games, but they are avatars, so their gender is open to discussion. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Mylady

[Etrurian emperor]

I think such things are best decided retroactively. Just go with who's the better received one. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Include a non-binary option, and have them be the character's standard in outside works. Although personally, I'm not a big fan of outside representations of Avatar characters - I can customize Robin or Corrin however I want, in appearance and name. Creating a canon representation undermines that customizability.

[Samz707]

17 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Include a non-binary option, and have them be the character's standard in outside works. Although personally, I'm not a big fan of outside representations of Avatar characters - I can customize Robin or Corrin however I want, in appearance and name. Creating a canon representation undermines that customizability.

Like how we don't see Robin clearly in the pre-rendered Awakening cutscenes? (due to having their hood up, even though it's still not quite right since you can make Robin Taller/shorter but they're clearly the "medium" build in the CG cutscenes.)

 

[Alastor15243]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think such things are best decided retroactively. Just go with who's the better received one. 

Same. That seems to be what happens anyway, and I don't mind it.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I think it should be dependent on character. Certainly not one or the other.

 

Kris, Robin, and Byleth seem to be canonically male. Corrin seems to be canonically female. 

 

Of course with Byleth, the female version has far surpassed the male version in popularity, and I suspect that they'll be the canon version going forward.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Like how we don't see Robin clearly in the pre-rendered Awakening cutscenes? (due to having their hood up, even though it's still not quite right since you can make Robin Taller/shorter but they're clearly the "medium" build in the CG cutscenes.)

 

Yeah, basically. In Awakening and Fates, they take great pains not to represent the Avatar character in their cutscenes. Then Smash comes along, and says "their name is Robin, and they have this particular hairstyle". Same with portrayals in Warriors and Heroes. Doing so prioritizes a single representation of a character who can be constructed in many different ways. What's the point of letting the player name and design their own character, if that character is going to be represented in a standardized fashion across the rest of the series?

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, basically. In Awakening and Fates, they take great pains not to represent the Avatar character in their cutscenes. Then Smash comes along, and says "their name is Robin, and they have this particular hairstyle". Same with portrayals in Warriors and Heroes. Doing so prioritizes a single representation of a character who can be constructed in many different ways. What's the point of letting the player name and design their own character, if that character is going to be represented in a standardized fashion across the rest of the series?

I mean to be fair default Robin is kinda the best designed one at least in my opinion. I don’t really care for Shota Robin and the large build looks too old looking for my tastes. Honestly the default build is just kinda the best one. Though the same can’t be said about female Robin.

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

13 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, basically. In Awakening and Fates, they take great pains not to represent the Avatar character in their cutscenes. Then Smash comes along, and says "their name is Robin, and they have this particular hairstyle". Same with portrayals in Warriors and Heroes. Doing so prioritizes a single representation of a character who can be constructed in many different ways. What's the point of letting the player name and design their own character, if that character is going to be represented in a standardized fashion across the rest of the series?

 While yeah, I can see why it's disappointing, in any franchise with customizable characters, there's the issue of what the canon representation of said character is. The Elder scrolls has discussed in length, and for morrowind for isntance the Canon Nerrevarine is assumed to be a male Dark Elf. Now, that's not going to stop me from making my Nerrevarine a female imperial, but it still allows me to think of the canon character when they are brought up in, say, Skyrim. I think the reason this issue feels more current is FE has only had avatars since 2013, whereas the elder scrolls had avatars since the 1990s. 

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Include a non-binary option, and have them be the character's standard in outside works. Although personally, I'm not a big fan of outside representations of Avatar characters - I can customize Robin or Corrin however I want, in appearance and name. Creating a canon representation undermines that customizability

While I agree that a possible gender ambiguous representation of the character is a half decent compromise, I don't see Nintendo going that way, as it took them till Fates to allow two quite poorly done homosexual S Supports. 

6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair default Robin is kinda the best designed one at least in my opinion. I don’t really care for Shota Robin and the large build looks too old looking for my tastes. Honestly the default build is just kinda the best one. Though the same can’t be said about female Robin.

I agree, and I'd throw in Female Corrin. Both have designs that best fit the gender they've assumed to be. I think the issue with Byleth is both his and her designs are not all that great in my opinion. Honestly, I think the Enlightened One atture is the superior Byleth outfit. Battle robes are just something that surpasses gender barriers and looks cool on everyone.

[Acacia Sgt]

19 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, basically. In Awakening and Fates, they take great pains not to represent the Avatar character in their cutscenes. Then Smash comes along, and says "their name is Robin, and they have this particular hairstyle". Same with portrayals in Warriors and Heroes. Doing so prioritizes a single representation of a character who can be constructed in many different ways. What's the point of letting the player name and design their own character, if that character is going to be represented in a standardized fashion across the rest of the series?

Because characters like Robin or Corrin are still their own. Yes, we have a choice in how they look or play, and get to choose what they say in a few occations, but ultimately "Avatar" is a bit of a misnomer. They're still their own characters at the end of the day, they're really not fully an avatar for us to project on. As such, they need a set appearance to come with their set personalities.

[Ottservia]

12 minutes ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

I agree, and I'd throw in Female Corrin. Both have designs that best fit the gender they've assumed to be. I think the issue with Byleth is both his and her designs are not all that great in my opinion. Honestly, I think the Enlightened One atture is the superior Byleth outfit. Battle robes are just something that surpasses gender barriers and looks cool on everyone.

Hey I’ll vouch for male Corrin and Female Byleth. They’re both pretty cute if you ask me. 3H character design overall is some of the blandest I’ve seen for any video game but it does have a few standouts and F!Byleth is one of them in my opinion at least

[Samz707]

52 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair default Robin is kinda the best designed one at least in my opinion. I don’t really care for Shota Robin and the large build looks too old looking for my tastes. Honestly the default build is just kinda the best one. Though the same can’t be said about female Robin.

Yeah the customization for Robin is kinda bad, It feels like I'm using an amatuer Palette Swapper tool than any sort of actual intended customization. (It simply doesn't look right IMO if you change it.)

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

30 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Hey I’ll vouch for male Corrin and Female Byleth. They’re both pretty cute if you ask me. 3H character design overall is some of the blandest I’ve seen for any video game but it does have a few standouts and F!Byleth is one of them in my opinion at least

I agree design wise, but I really dislike her default outfit. It just didn't come off to me as Mercanary or Professor. I feel some more armor/coverage would improve it. Now, I won't say it's a bad design, I just don't feel it fits the character of Byleth.

[Samz707]

3 hours ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

I agree design wise, but I really dislike her default outfit. It just didn't come off to me as Mercanary or Professor. I feel some more armor/coverage would improve it. Now, I won't say it's a bad design, I just don't feel it fits the character of Byleth.

She looks more like she stumbled out of a modern nightclub than an actual mercenary.

I basically changed my combat look away from her default outfit as soon as I unlocked Class Changing since it looks dumb for a mercenary to wear on the job.

It's almost as silly looking as Lissa's dress cage.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

4 hours ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

I agree design wise, but I really dislike her default outfit. It just didn't come off to me as Mercanary or Professor. I feel some more armor/coverage would improve it. Now, I won't say it's a bad design, I just don't feel it fits the character of Byleth.

I mean I like her design better than Male Byleth’s because like I feel her design reflects the kuudere aspect of her character better than her male counterpart

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

She looks more like she stumbled out of a modern nightclub than an actual mercenary.

I basically changed my combat look away from her default outfit as soon as I unlocked Class Changing since it looks dumb for a mercenary to wear on the job.

It's almost as silly looking as Lissa's dress cage.

I mean, at least War Cleric Lissa's dress cage offered some protection. I believe there is a form of medieval armor that was similar. And yeah, I do wish they had used the DLC proffesor outfit and something more Mercanary like for previously.

19 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean I like her design better than Male Byleth’s because like I feel her design reflects the kuudere aspect of her character better than her male counterpart

I agree it fits better with female Byleth than male, but I feel that practicality wise, a mercenary would wear aomething more armored. And I'm still figuring out the dere typea. Kuudere is emotionless, right?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

While I agree that a possible gender ambiguous representation of the character is a half decent compromise, I don't see Nintendo going that way, as it took them till Fates to allow two quite poorly done homosexual S Supports. 

Fair enough, this is more a "pie in the sky" wish than anything else. Nintendo is a "family-friendly Japanese game company", after all. At the same time, though - in Animal Crossing: New Horizons, your player character is basically genderfluid. So this sort of character in Fire Emblem might not be that far off.

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean to be fair default Robin is kinda the best designed one at least in my opinion. I don’t really care for Shota Robin and the large build looks too old looking for my tastes. Honestly the default build is just kinda the best one. Though the same can’t be said about female Robin.

My own preference is older female Robin, then middle male Robin. But I kind of like the "old man" version, just for how different he is.

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Because characters like Robin or Corrin are still their own. Yes, we have a choice in how they look or play, and get to choose what they say in a few occations, but ultimately "Avatar" is a bit of a misnomer. They're still their own characters at the end of the day, they're really not fully an avatar for us to project on. As such, they need a set appearance to come with their set personalities.

I recognize that the Avatar characters have set personalities and personal journeys. But I don't think that necessarily means they need a set appearance, or even name (although I admit to using the names "Robin", "Corrin", and "Byleth", for convenience sake - even if they're of unclear canonicity).

Think of it this way - in a thousand playthroughs of Awakening, Chrom always has the same name, appearance, and voice. But in those thousand playthroughs, Chrom's partner can have a thousand different names and looks. In playthrough #001, they're a young man with short white hair, named Robin. In #049, they're a little girl with pink pigtails, named Kira. In #776, they're a brown-haired boy named Leif.

So why is it only the first one that gets any representation? Maybe the one from playthrough #001 can fit into Warriors, while Heroes brings in those from #014, #981, and #231. They all have the same backstory, and share the brand and Avatar outfit, but come from different instances of Chrom's story. I could even see #776 getting his own spin-off game (I kid, I kid).

At least, that's my own (likely unpopular) take on how portrayals of a customizable character should be done outside of their base game. Smash, to its credit, includes both sexes of Robin (and Corrin), and gives them varied hair colors - but still sticks to a single build and hairstyle for each. I'm generally fine with how they did Byleth, although they should have been called "Professor" instead - that's basically their name in-game, whereas "Byleth" doesn't inherently exist in Three Houses.

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, Sir Gerwald of Vallora said:

I agree it fits better with female Byleth than male, but I feel that practicality wise, a mercenary would wear aomething more armored. And I'm still figuring out the dere typea. Kuudere is emotionless, right?

Ehh fuck realism honestly. Stories are inherently unrealistic anyway. If I can suspend my disbelief enough for a character having naturally colored blue hair or a character doing a back flip on a wyvern of all things I can buy into F!Byleth’s outfit. Besides F!Byleth’s outfit is just honestly more memorable to me because of how weird it is. Male Byleth’s design is one I tend to forget a lot because of just how bland it is. I prefer a design be weird but memorable rather than generic and forgettable personally speaking 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Ottservia

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Ehh fuck realism honestly. Stories are inherently unrealistic anyway. If I can suspend my disbelief enough for a character having naturally colored blue hair or a character doing a back flip on a wyvern of all things I can buy into F!Byleth’s outfit.

I inherently disagree, but that's mostly on a basis of my tastes. I'm a medieval/renaissance history buff, so I absolutely adore real world weapons and armor, and the fact that 3H has a lot of armor that looks more realistic in the lower levels makes me quite happy. And on the subject of "stories are inherantly unrealistic" I feel that's a bit of a generalization. In three houses the characters we see are human, they share the same gravity, night and day cycle, and air as the real world. While there may be magical elements, that doesn't change the way weapons and armor interact on the battlefield, and since there is no magic tied to Byleth's armor, it should follow these same rules. Now, I understand your point, while aesthetically unrealistic armor can be appealing to some people, in generally not one of them. But hey, that's just me, and I'm not on the production team of Fire Emblem, so what we get next is completely in the air.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Sir Gerwald of Vallora

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I tend to go with:

-Kris as male
-Robin as male
-Corrin as female
-Byleth as male

Kris, Robin, and Corrin all make more sense to me that way. Dunno why, they just do. It's how I think of and envision them. Byleth is purely for aesthetic reasons; I do not like Byleth's female design at ALL, but the male one is okay.

I'd be down for the next new avatar of the franchise (NEW as in brand new game, not remake like Mark in FE7) to default to female. That'd be good, give more representation.

[Sunwoo]

I actually don't agree with Corrin being female, Fates itself seems to go with the assumption that Hoshido - male, Nohr - female. I just get the idea that both male and female Corrin exist, even if not at the same time, and whichever one is canon depends on whether you're in Hoshido or Nohr.

I actually feel like all the avatars are written with the assumption that they're default male (except for Nohr), and female Corrin only feels like an exception because she's so insanely popular compared to her male counterpart that they market her more than the dude. Also, certain decisions in Cipher, at the very least, make me feel like male Corrin was intended to be the "default", even if the female being way popular may have pushed her above him in other areas.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Sunwoo

[IkaMusumeYiyaRoxie]

And talking about this thread, did you remember Kirs from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~ Heroes of Light and Shadow?

[Sir Gerwald of Vallora]

3 hours ago, IkaMusumeYiyaRoxie said:

And talking about this thread, did you remember Kirs from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem ~ Heroes of Light and Shadow?

I mentioned him/her in the first post, and other people have disccused them. From what I understand, IS is treating them as male from here on out, which is a shame.