What story/character tropes do you dislike or hate?

[Ottservia]

3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Further to my earlier answer:  The heroes defeating the villain with the power of friendship is complete and absolute bollocks. Especially when those friends are just average joes with no power or influence.

I don’t understand why people like to dunk on the power of friendship so much. If anything I personally find it to be one of the most meaningful and heartfelt messages you can put into your story especially nowadays with everyone cooped up inside. It’s more realistic than you think. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve almost given up if not for my friends belief in me. I know that sounds corny but I feel like we take for granted the people in our lives. Think about what loneliness would be like. What it would be like to never have a shoulder to lean on. No one to talk to. No one to rely on you. No one to confide in or to ask for help. I dunno about you but that sounds like a terrible place to be. What I like about the power of friendship in fiction is that it basically gives those feelings an exaggerated physical form be it through a literal power up or something smaller like one character never giving up to protect or help a friend. Or throwing their life away for them. Or hell, a character realizing they view another as a friend and deciding to run in and help them. Moments like that create for some of the most emotional resonate moments in storytelling if you ask me and it’s something we can all relate to some extent cause we all know what it’s like to have a friend or to want one. Humans are social creatures. We don’t like being alone.

[Venger_06]

3 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Further to my earlier answer:  The heroes defeating the villain with the power of friendship is complete and absolute bollocks. Especially when those friends are just average joes with no power or influence.

What ruined Fairy Tail. Power of friendship is only good when done in a logical way, otherwise it's cringe.

[vanguard333]

19 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

What ruined Fairy Tail. Power of friendship is only good when done in a logical way, otherwise it's cringe.

You would like Black Clover then if you haven't seen it; in that show, no one even says "power of friendship" and the characters are instead shown to be using actual teamwork: combining spells in creative and clever ways, teammates familiar with each other are shown being able to know what the other will do, etc. 

Some of my favourite examples of this include the following scenes:

No Magic Idiot! | Black Clover - YouTube

Despair! | Black Clover - YouTube

The Power of Rivals! | Black Clover - YouTube

 

36 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I don’t understand why people like to dunk on the power of friendship so much. If anything I personally find it to be one of the most meaningful and heartfelt messages you can put into your story especially nowadays with everyone cooped up inside.

I think it has less to do with the trope itself and more just how it's often executed.

[Venger_06]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

You would like Black Clover then if you haven't seen it; in that show, no one even says "power of friendship" and the characters are instead shown to be using actual teamwork: combining spells in creative and clever ways, teammates familiar with each other are shown being able to know what the other will do, etc.

That show where the protagonist is screams nonstop? I couldn't get past the first episode. Honestly, I think I already got tired of shounens after all the works that I followed have ended up with a horrible ending. At the very least, I am not going to read/watch a work that is not finished ever again.

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I think it has less to do with the trope itself and more just how it's often executed.

Exactly. For example, it makes no sense for Krillin to remember that he has friends fighting alongside him and one-shot Frieza next second. This violates all the rules that the work has established.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Maof06 said:

That show where the protagonist is screams nonstop? I couldn't get past the first episode. Honestly, I think I already got tired of shounens after all the works that I followed have ended up with a horrible ending. At the very least, I am not going to read/watch a work that is not finished ever again.

Three years; the show's been going for three years now, and the protagonist screaming is still what people take away?! He hasn't "screamed nonstop" since episode 5, of 170 and counting. It was the VA's first time voice acting, and he improved very quickly to the point where he's now one of the best voice actors on the show. Here; see for yourself (I'm not suggesting that you watch all three of these; I'm just providing multiple examples to show that I'm not just showing an isolated case of him not screaming):

Execute Them! | Black Clover - YouTube

Asta vs Langris! | Black Clover - YouTube

We're the Same! | Black Clover - YouTube

In fact, he got so good that he sang the show's 12th ending (I'm serious; the show's 12th ending is sung by the protagonist's voice actor).

Honestly, Black Clover is one of those shows that had a bit of a rocky start and then improved massively very quickly. I get the importance of a first impression, but I can point to a ton of famous well-loved shows that had a rocky first few episodes. Star Trek Next Generation for instance had a rock first season, yet the show is still widely loved; that show literally defined the term Growing the Beard (as it improved in quality at the same time that one of the actors had to grow a bread for another role, so the phenomenon became named after that coincidence). Black Clover didn't take nearly as long to improve as that show did, so how come Black Clover still gets so much flak after three years?

Okay; I can understand not wanting to watch a series that hasn't finished yet. I'm just saying don't judge Black Clover by your first impression of episode 1. Oh, and it's currently on hiatus for a while because it's way too close to the manga and because they're now making a movie, so you could count it as technically finished if you want to give it another try.

 

3 hours ago, Maof06 said:

Exactly. For example, it makes no sense for Krillin to remember that he has friends fighting alongside him and one-shot Frieza next second. This violates all the rules that the work has established.

I wouldn't know in regards to that example; I've never seen Dragon Ball. I'm relatively new to anime, with the list of anime I've watched to completion being the following: Spider Riders, One-Punch Man, FMA: Brotherhood, Violet Evergarden, Record of Grancrest War, Naruto (part 1 and Shippuden; it took me over a month to binge-watch), My Hero Academia, Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, Black Clover, and TONIKAWA: Fly Me to the Moon.

Edited April 9, 2021 by vanguard333

[Venger_06]

On 4/9/2021 at 7:42 PM, vanguard333 said:

Three years; the show's been going for three years now, and the protagonist screaming is still what people take away?! He hasn't "screamed nonstop" since episode 5, of 170 and counting. It was the VA's first time voice acting, and he improved very quickly to the point where he's now one of the best voice actors on the show. Here; see for yourself (I'm not suggesting that you watch all three of these; I'm just providing multiple examples to show that I'm not just showing an isolated case of him not screaming):

Execute Them! | Black Clover - YouTube

Asta vs Langris! | Black Clover - YouTube

We're the Same! | Black Clover - YouTube

In fact, he got so good that he sang the show's 12th ending (I'm serious; the show's 12th ending is sung by the protagonist's voice actor).

Honestly, Black Clover is one of those shows that had a bit of a rocky start and then improved massively very quickly. I get the importance of a first impression, but I can point to a ton of famous well-loved shows that had a rocky first few episodes. Star Trek Next Generation for instance had a rock first season, yet the show is still widely loved; that show literally defined the term Growing the Beard (as it improved in quality at the same time that one of the actors had to grow a bread for another role, so the phenomenon became named after that coincidence). Black Clover didn't take nearly as long to improve as that show did, so how come Black Clover still gets so much flak after three years?

Okay; I can understand not wanting to watch a series that hasn't finished yet. I'm just saying don't judge Black Clover by your first impression of episode 1. Oh, and it's currently on hiatus for a while because it's way too close to the manga and because they're now making a movie, so you could count it as technically finished if you want to give it another try.

Dude, chill out. I wasn't criticizing the VA's work nor diminishing the entire work. I was just saying that it didn't hook me up and then explained why I'm disheartened with shounens right now. And yes, the screaming is still infamous to this day.

On 4/9/2021 at 7:42 PM, vanguard333 said:

I wouldn't know in regards to that example; I've never seen Dragon Ball. I'm relatively new to anime, with the list of anime I've watched to completion being the following: Spider Riders, One-Punch Man, FMA: Brotherhood, Violet Evergarden, Record of Grancrest War, Naruto (part 1 and Shippuden; it took me over a month to binge-watch), My Hero Academia, Boruto: Naruto Next Generations, Black Clover, and TONIKAWA: Fly Me to the Moon.

The answer is power levels (in the generic term refering to power scaling). It's established at the start of DBZ that every being has a power level, and beings with a low power level can't defeat beings with a power level too high in a fair fight, because they aren't strong enough.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Maof06
Edited to be clearer.

[vanguard333]

5 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Dude, chill out. I wasn't criticizing the VA's work nor diminishing the entire work. I was just saying that it didn't hook me up and then explained why I'm disheartened with shounens right now. And yes, the screaming is still infamous to this day..

If it seemed like I wasn't calm, that was most certainly not my intent. At most, I had only a bit of initial shock (and even then, shock's a strong word; I guess it would be something between surprise and shock; is there a word for that?) at seeing someone bringing up Asta screaming after I thought that being the big takeaway had long died down. 

I see; I guess I'm too used to seeing it being brought up as a criticism; especially when seeing the statement "I couldn't get past episode [insert tiny number here]", as the statement I see is usually, "I couldn't get past [insert tiny episode number here] because of it". I must've misread or misinterpreted what you said; my bad.

Well, as I said (or rather as I meant to say), if you ever feel less disheartened, I would recommend giving it another try. As I said, it had a rocky start, but it improved very quickly and I haven't seen that quality decline or even stagnate; it just keeps getting better. 

I'm honestly surprised that the anime is still infamous for that. Then again, people still jokingly refer to the anime Naruto as "Boruto's Dad", so I shouldn't really underestimate how long a meme can last.

15 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

The answer is power levels. It's established at the start of DBZ that every being has a power level, and beings with a low power level can't defeat beings with a power level too high, because they aren't strong enough.

I see. That makes sense.

I will say one thing I like about Black Clover in regards to that (I promise I'm not just trying to say good stuff about Black Clover; I'm just bringing this up because I thought it's related and interesting) is that it takes a rather nuanced approach to power-scaling; different magic attributes have advantages over other specific attributes, a weak-but-skilled mage can beat a powerful opponent if they're clever but this is considered unusual (and it's always done in a way that makes sense, like one guy who uses trap spells and guile to compensate for his low amount of magic), and then there are characters whose powers are unconventional enough within the show's setting that they simply do not fit on standard power-level scaling; the characters in the show eventually have a name for it: arcane stage mages. The protagonist, due to his lack of magic and his anti-magic, is one such character.

Also, perhaps most importantly, the show isn't afraid to have characters on a lower power level lose. One of those videos links I left above (the power of rivals) has the two main characters lose to an exceptionally powerful opponent.

[NinjaMonkey]

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

It’s more realistic than you think. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve almost given up if not for my friends belief in me.

That's not the same as using the power of friendship as a means of beating a villain.

5 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Humans are social creatures. We don’t like being alone.

As an anti-social person, I can't agree.

[DarkSage861]

I don't know if this is really a trope yet, but it's becoming way to frequent as of late. Characters that are only made to have "representation" of color, gender, orientation. I don't care if it's political but the woke agenda really makes a character boring by adding in nothing but what i've mentioned  

[NinjaMonkey]

4 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

Characters that are only made to have "representation" of color, gender, orientation. I don't care if it's political but the woke agenda really makes a character boring by adding in nothing but what i've mentioned  

I don't think it's a trope per se, it's just pandering (which was known as tokenism back in the 90's).

Edited April 10, 2021 by NinjaMonkey

[vanguard333]

4 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I don't think it's a trope per se, it's just pandering (which was known as tokenism back in the 90's).

Pretty much. Nowadays, you'll see a bunch of YouTubers refer to it by the much more vague and controversy-catching title, "forced diversity" and whenever I hear about that, I'm always like, "There was already a name for this: tokenism, and most people agree that tokenism is a bad thing. Why call it something more vague like 'forced diversity'? Does that name create more buzz or something? If you're wanting to talk about tokenism, just call it tokenism!"

 

8 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

I don't know if this is really a trope yet, but it's becoming way to frequent as of late. Characters that are only made to have "representation" of color, gender, orientation. I don't care if it's political but the woke agenda really makes a character boring by adding in nothing but what I've mentioned  

It's not political and it's not a 'woke agenda'; it's media companies trying to go for broad appeal without putting the work in to write interesting characters. It's the same corporate logic that's behind any other case of a play for broad appeal that ends up appealing to no one, like Fallout 76 trying to be both an RPG and an online-only survival game and ending up being decent at neither. Those two things may not seem similar, but the corporate logic behind both decisions is the exact same.

[Ottservia]

16 hours ago, Maof06 said:

The answer is power levels. It's established at the start of DBZ that every being has a power level, and beings with a low power level can't defeat beings with a power level too high, because they aren't strong enough.

Here’s the thing about power levels in dragon ball though they never mattered. You notice that the only characters who care about power levels in the series are villains who are supposed to be wrong.

[Venger_06]

26 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Here’s the thing about power levels in dragon ball though they never mattered. You notice that the only characters who care about power levels in the series are villains who are supposed to be wrong.

The earthlings being massacred by Nappa prove you wrong. Also, power levels only lose relevance after the Frieza Saga, and even then they remain consistent during the Cell Saga, with a few exceptions.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Maof06 said:

The earthlings being massacred by Nappa prove you wrong. Also, power levels only lose relevance after the Frieza Saga, and even then they remain consistent during the Cell Saga, with a few exceptions.

Raditz had a higher power level than Goku and Piccolo combined, but they still managed to beat him (and in fact they actually got pretty close to beating Nappa once they started coordinating). Power levels were always a short hand for the characters relative strength, but right from the get go were never meant to suggest it was impossible for someone with a lower power level to beat someone with a higher power level.

That being said the sheer jump in numbers they used to try and sell further threats just got silly.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

I like the idea of power level only meaning relative strength and that's its possible for a lower ranking powerlevel to beat a higher one. Sadly Dragonball itself doesn't like that idea. It got to a point where every character not named Goku or the exception that particular arc would be completely unable to contribute. One of the few things Super has over the original is that it restores the possibility that experience and tactics can be more important than powerlevels. 

[Venger_06]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Raditz had a higher power level than Goku and Piccolo combined, but they still managed to beat him (and in fact they actually got pretty close to beating Nappa once they started coordinating). Power levels were always a short hand for the characters relative strength, but right from the get go were never meant to suggest it was impossible for someone with a lower power level to beat someone with a higher power level.

That being said the sheer jump in numbers they used to try and sell further threats just got silly.

Raditz's power level wasn't magnitudes above Goku and Piccolo's, and they still needed to exploit his weakness (and Gohan weakening him in the second time) to kill him. Even then, Piccolo lost an arm during the fight (thankfully, he can regenerate) and Goku sacrificed himself. Makankosappo is also a very powerful technique that takes time to charge, and without a doubt they wouldn't be able to defeat him without it.

Only a rage-boosted Gohan was able to do real damage to Nappa, and Nappa still could easily kill him and Krillin after it.

22 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

One of the few things Super has over the original is that it restores the possibility that experience and tactics can be more important than powerlevels. 

By throwing away it, Super became an incoherent mess where the author can justify any shit he pulls out of his ass, aka Bad Writing.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Maof06

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Raditz's power level wasn't magnitudes above Goku and Piccolo's, and they still needed to exploit his weakness (and Gohan weakening him in the second time) to kill him. Even then, Piccolo lost an arm during the fight (thankfully, he can regenerate) and Goku sacrificed himself. Makankosappo is also a very powerful technique that takes time to charge, and without a doubt they wouldn't be able to defeat him without it.

 

That's the point though. They still beat him. And again they later beat Great Ape Vegeta using similar methods of team work.

 

[Venger_06]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's the point though. They still beat him. And again they later beat Great Ape Vegeta using similar methods of team work.

 

Same thing: Vegeta's power level wasn't magnitudes above them. See my first example: no matter how many people came to help, they still failed to defeat Freeza. And he wasn't even in his final form.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Same thing: Vegeta's power level wasn't magnitudes above them. See my first example: no matter how many people came to help, they still failed to defeat Freeza. And he wasn't even in his final form.

Well actually Great Ape Vegeta's power level was monstrously higher than the rest of them. In fact it was the same as Goku's was when he took out the Ginyu Force (and yet Vegeta was piss scared of them, him losing his tail should have been a way more significant aspect of his character than it was).

I'm not saying any character can beat any other character, but the series does make a point about how the villains over rely on a device that tells them they're stronger rather than learning to actually sense how powerful their enemies are.

[Venger_06]

45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well actually Great Ape Vegeta's power level was monstrously higher than the rest of them. In fact it was the same as Goku's was when he took out the Ginyu Force (and yet Vegeta was piss scared of them, him losing his tail should have been a way more significant aspect of his character than it was).

According to the guidebooks, Vegeta's power as great ape was 180.000, way higher than the Ginyu force, so take that with a grain of salt. And in the manga (the canon), they didn't even fight Great Ape Vegeta, Krillin only missed an attack and then Yajirobe cut his tail (his weakness).

Look, we probably won't see eye to eye on this matter, so I'm just going to put here the scene that illustrates my point.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Maof06

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

According to the guidebooks, Vegeta's power as great ape was 180.000, way higher than the Ginyu force, so take that with a grain of salt. And in the manga (the canon), they didn't even fight Great Ape Vegeta, Krillin only missed an attack and then Yajirobe cut his tail (his weakness).

It's not just the guide books. Vegeta's power level is 18,000 and he says the Great Ape form makes him 10 times stronger, and when Goku destroys the Ginyu force his power level is measured as 180,000. Which coincidentally is exactly the same as 18,000 x 10. By power level Vegeta would have been able to destroy the Ginyu force just as easily as Goku did before losing his tail, yet is always shit scared of them regardless. A line about how he wish he had his tail would have been nice, but Vegeta's tail is literally never mentioned after he gets healed from the Earth fight (where in he actually says the tail would grow back! Guess he was wrong about that).

Quote

Look, we probably won't see eye to eye on this matter, so I'm just going to put here the scene that illustrates my point.

 

Filler content! But seriously I'm not disagreeing that some characters are so much more powerful than others to the extent that they can't contribute (unless they're a BAMF like Tien). I'm saying it's not a hard number. Characters with lower power levels can and do beat characters with higher power levels.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Jotari

[Venger_06]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Filler content! But seriously I'm not disagreeing that some characters are so much more powerful than others to the extent that they can't contribute (unless they're a BAMF like Tien). I'm saying it's not a hard number. Characters with lower power levels can and do beat characters with higher power levels.

I choose this scene because it's impactful, but you can just as easily read chapter 382 and see Krillin's kicking him to no avail. It's not a hard number, but there are limits where teamwork and/or power of friendship can't (and shouldn't) help. Like I said,

On 4/9/2021 at 4:32 PM, Maof06 said:

Exactly. For example, it makes no sense for Krillin to remember that he has friends fighting alongside him and one-shot Frieza next second. This violates all the rules that the work has established.

23 hours ago, Maof06 said:

The answer is power levels. It's established at the start of DBZ that every being has a power level, and beings with a low power level can't defeat beings with a power level too high, because they aren't strong enough.

Krillin can't, realistic, defeat full power Frieza. There's a difference of over 100 million in power levels. And if he did, it would simply be an asspull.

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not just the guide books. Vegeta's power level is 18,000 and he says the Great Ape form makes him 10 times stronger, and when Goku destroys the Ginyu force his power level is measured as 180,000. Which coincidentally is exactly the same as 18,000 x 10. By power level Vegeta would have been able to destroy the Ginyu force just as easily as Goku did before losing his tail, yet is always shit scared of them regardless. A line about how he wish he had his tail would have been nice, but Vegeta's tail is literally never mentioned after he gets healed from the Earth fight (where in he actually says the tail would grow back! Guess he was wrong about that).

I think is more of a "Toriyama forgot" moment than a power level problem.

[Ottservia]

6 hours ago, Maof06 said:

The earthlings being massacred by Nappa prove you wrong. Also, power levels only lose relevance after the Frieza Saga, and even then they remain consistent during the Cell Saga, with a few exceptions.

How does that prove me wrong exactly? That doesn’t undo the fact that the only characters in dragonball that give a shit about power levels are villains and guess what they’re supposed to be wrong. This is even reflected in how a lot of the “good guys” are able to hide their power levels because they don’t flaunt it like the villains do. Power levels in dragon ball have never really mattered and that’s kind of the point because it’s supposed to show that one’s power level doesn’t reflect the quality of their character. 

[Venger_06]

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

How does that prove me wrong exactly?

Because their difference in power decided the outcome of the battle.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

That doesn’t undo the fact that the only characters in dragonball that give a shit about power levels are villains and guess what they’re supposed to be wrong.

No, not only the villains cares about power levels. Every time a character says "X person is stronger than me!" its about power levels.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

This is even reflected in how a lot of the “good guys” are able to hide their power levels because they don’t flaunt it like the villains do.

That's because earthlings can camouflage their Ki. When they're going to fight, they power up back. Just because they hide they presence doesn't mean that power levels doesn't matter.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

Power levels in dragon ball have never really mattered

Power levels permeated Dragon Ball from start to finish, even before they were properly introduced (Classic Dragon Ball) until it became muddied (Majin Buu Saga). Goku, when fighting Tien in the WT (before the concept was introduced) had a power level. Goku, when fighting Buu at the end of Z, also has a power level, although it is not stated the exact amount. That's the reason why Goku can fight Buu evenly: SS3 Goku has a similar power level to Buu's. Vegeta, for example, doesn't have, that's why when they fight he got his ass handed to Buu.

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

that’s kind of the point because it’s supposed to show that one’s power level doesn’t reflect the quality of their character. 

Krillin is weak. That doesn't mean he is a bad character. There is nothing said in that thread that came close to stating that a character was bad because he was weak.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Maof06

[Jotari]

42 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

Because their difference in power decided the outcome of the battle.

No, not only the villains cares about power levels. Every time a character says "X person is stronger than me!" its about power levels.

That's because earthlings can camouflage their Ki. When they're going to fight, they power up back. Just because they hide they presence doesn't mean that power levels doesn't matter.

Power levels permeated Dragon Ball from start to finish, even before they were properly introduced (Classic Dragon Ball) until it became muddied (Majin Buu Saga). Goku, when fighting Tien in the WT (before the concept was introduced) had a power level. Goku, when fighting Buu at the end of Z, also has a power level, although it is not stated the exact amount. That's the reason why Goku can fight Buu evenly: SS3 Goku has a similar power level to Buu's. Vegeta, for example, doesn't have, that's why when they fight he got his ass handed to Buu.

Krillin is weak. That doesn't mean he is a bad character. There is nothing said in that thread that came close to stating that a character was bad because he was weak.

I think people are speaking over each other here because you're conflating the in universe concept of a power level with the general principle of power scaling. The in universe mechanic of power levels as detected by scouters isn't and never was intended to be a hard number and the reliance on it was meant to be a weakeness of the villains. And the very identification of it was utilized to hype up enemies (without necessarily having the enemies do anything, it's actually a rather good use of telling over showing).

Where's power scaling is something that pretty much every fight based story is going to have. Some characters are undeniably stronger than other characters, with the gap getting so wide it's like a level 1 unit in Heroes against a level 40. But that's different in concept to the specific mechanic in the specific story of Dragon Ball, given the specific mechanic in Dragon Ball is not designed to be a mathematical hard formula.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Jotari