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What story/character tropes do you dislike or hate?


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19 minutes ago, Tessie Spoon said:

One particular use (or in my opinion, misuse) of the Rule of Sexy is one of my biggest pet peeves. Said peeve is: having a character dress like ogle-bait without any decent in-universe justification for it. One example that always stood out to me is Mythra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2. She's far from the type who enjoys being ogled, yet she dresses the way she does... and that one scene where she went hysterical on Rex for what clearly wasn't his fault? That didn't endear her to me. 

I find it extra bothersome that this trope use is so common since it's easy to avoid. Something as simple as "Oh, she likes the male attention" or "Oh, with how poor she is, she has little choice" would've been good enough, but I see such far too rarely 😕

I actually think that fits more with Pyra who's far more shy than Mythra yet still dresses half naked all the time. One of her idle quotes when its dark is ''Oh great I'm glowing....I'm a little self conscious'' which she says unironically while not wearing any clothing.  Mythra on the other hand strikes me as someone who's more confidant in her appearance.  

I think I know which scene you mean and it definitely had me roll my eyes and going ''oh Xenoblade...''

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8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I actually think that fits more with Pyra who's far more shy than Mythra yet still dresses half naked all the time. One of her idle quotes when its dark is ''Oh great I'm glowing....I'm a little self conscious'' which she says unironically while not wearing any clothing.  Mythra on the other hand strikes me as someone who's more confidant in her appearance.  

I think I know which scene you mean and it definitely had me roll my eyes and going ''oh Xenoblade...''

Mythra's certainly more confident, but she's also one not to deal with bullshit or to get a sense of satisfaction from people oogling her. Though, somewhat amusingly, given that they're actually artificial in this case, the reason why they look like that in universe could be interpreted as being the same as in our universe, namely they were intentionally deisgned to be that way by their creator (although Myrtha was the one who created Pyra...so I'm not sure what that says about her).

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On 12/5/2021 at 2:20 AM, Jotari said:

Mythra's certainly more confident, but she's also one not to deal with bullshit or to get a sense of satisfaction from people oogling her.

Agreed, confidence in one's appearance is one thing, and enjoying being the target of the male or female gaze is another. Mythra's no Zeke.

 

On 12/5/2021 at 2:20 AM, Jotari said:

the reason why they look like that in universe could be interpreted as being the same as in our universe, namely they were intentionally deisgned to be that way by their creator (although Myrtha was the one who created Pyra...so I'm not sure what that says about her).

Understandable interpretation, and it begs the question: why would Mythra still choose to wear that outfit? She spends the vast majority of her time outside the company of her creator, so you'd think that by default, she'd still go with an outfit that doesn't contradict her personality. There's one more problem... Has said creator been revealed to be the type of guy who'd have her wear such an outfit in the first place? From what I remember, he's far from a Sir Lustful :/

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3 minutes ago, Tessie Spoon said:

Agreed, confidence in one's appearance is one thing, and enjoying being the target of the male or female gaze is another. Mythra's no Zeke.

 

Understandable interpretation, and it begs the question: why would Mythra still choose to wear that outfit? She spends the vast majority of her time outside the company of her creator, so you'd think that by default, she'd still go with an outfit that doesn't contradict her personality. There's one more problem... Has said creator been revealed to be the type of guy who'd have her wear such an outfit in the first place? From what I remember, he's far from a Sir Lustful :

Well he didn't see much need to add clothes to Arglas's wardrobe (nor Shulk's if everyone plays Xenoblade like me!).

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Its not exactly a trope but I tend to develop strong distastes for characters that I don't think ever do anything. 

Take Hdrid  for instance. We meet him late in book 2 and despite him being hyped up he proceeds to do absolutely nothing. He contributes nothing to the defeat of Surtr nor does he have a vital presence in cutscenes, yet gets to be king at the end.

Or Judith. She's not a playable character and unlike Rodrigue she doesn't get to shine in the story. All she does is give Claude a contact in the Alliance that's neither Holst or count Gloucester which would have been far more interesting. That she brings nothing to the table and only seems to be there in order to block more interesting Alliance nobles from getting involved with the plot always made me resent her.

Or on the subject of Xenoblade: Cole. What does he add to Torna aside from the obligation of honoring his stated backstory in the main game? He fills a slot for Adam's blade but he never gets to do anything, and his ties to Amalthus aren't really explored. I don't believe he even has dialogue in the ending. 

Coupled with this is usually a lack of charisma. Sleep Fairy is only barely more relevant that Hdrid but she makes up for it by having amusing banter with Veronica, and had Judith been a more buffed and ruder lady with a lot of presence I might have forgiven her lack of contribution to the plot. Cole similarly is just boring. And not the fun kind of boring like Aegaeon where the plot occasionally stops to make fun of him being Hugo's boring dad, or show that his boring traits amusingly turn him into a ladies man. When compared to Hugo's dad there's just not much room for a character who plays the bore entirely straight. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its not exactly a trope but I tend to develop strong distastes for characters that I don't think ever do anything. 

I know you're not actually challenging anyone to come up with reasons here...and for the most part I agree with you...but I still have something to say for each of them so...

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Take Hdrid  for instance. We meet him late in book 2 and despite him being hyped up he proceeds to do absolutely nothing. He contributes nothing to the defeat of Surtr nor does he have a vital presence in cutscenes, yet gets to be king at the end.

I'd say him becoming King is the whole reason he exists. The wanted someone to take charge of the kingdom, but they also wanted Fjorn to continue to be playable and maintain the idea that the Fjorn fighting in your army is a real person and not a summoned hero like the others. Same reason the Giantess takes control of the Kingdom in the most recent book, only she's more of a character there. Of course I doubt anyone would have been pushed too much if they just ignored this issue entirely and just had Fjorn remain playable without justification. But eh, at least it justifies her a bit more to be in Forging Bonds stuff. So, yeah, Hrid could have been implemented better, but I think they shoved him in for a specific  reason.

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Or Judith. She's not a playable character and unlike Rodrigue she doesn't get to shine in the story. All she does is give Claude a contact in the Alliance that's neither Holst or count Gloucester which would have been far more interesting. That she brings nothing to the table and only seems to be there in order to block more interesting Alliance nobles from getting involved with the plot always made me resent her.

Hey, at least she weirdly has the Lord Class. That makes her noteable.

9 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Or on the subject of Xenoblade: Cole. What does he add to Torna aside from the obligation of honoring his stated backstory in the main game? He fills a slot for Adam's blade but he never gets to do anything, and his ties to Amalthus aren't really explored. I don't believe he even has dialogue in the ending. 

You know he was so poorly implemented, I didn't even realize it was the same character at first. It was only upon finishing Torna I remembered the old guy and wondered why he wasn't in Torna only to realize they had mentioned every single obligatory detail about him and added nothing else (which is kind of Torna as a whole). What he does bring to the table, however, is the Darkness element for the party, which no other blade has and is kind of needed for the gameplay. Course there was nothing stopping them from just inventing a new blade for Adam that had the darkness element, but Torna was kind of low effort fan service all around. Why bother to create anything new when even if you do, fans will just complain about the stuff that was referenced before being absent?

 

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On 12/4/2021 at 1:58 PM, Tessie Spoon said:

One particular use (or in my opinion, misuse) of the Rule of Sexy is one of my biggest pet peeves. Said peeve is: having a character dress like ogle-bait without any decent in-universe justification for it. One example that always stood out to me is Mythra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2. She's far from the type who enjoys being ogled, yet she dresses the way she does... and that one scene where she went hysterical on Rex for what clearly wasn't his fault? That didn't endear her to me. 

I find it extra bothersome that this trope use is so common since it's easy to avoid. Something as simple as "Oh, she likes the male attention" or "Oh, with how poor she is, she has little choice" would've been good enough, but I see such far too rarely :/ 

Another possible justification being what TV Tropes calls "Go-Go Enslavement", where the character is forced to wear a provocative outfit by someone else (but good luck getting away with that in today's mainstream media).

I'd like to point out though that the Rule of Sexy isn't just for heterosexual people. A girl can dress sexy to get attention from other women too, just as a muscular man can show off his pecs and abs for other men. Though this isn't really a story/character trope per se, I do hate when people assume straight men are the only humans on the planet who care about sex appeal and fanservice. Anyone of any gender or orientation can enjoy a skimpy outfit, lots of exposed skin, and emphasized muscles or curves. What counts as attractive will vary from person to person, but the fact is, many people are attracted to some kind of titillation. It's in our DNA.

I'm all for justifying sex appeal, and for characters who embrace that aspect of themselves rather than acting embarrassed about it. Really, I think it'd be more empowering to dress and act sexy because you can, rather than letting someone else force you to do so (or not to do so). And, in Pyra and Mythra's case, I think it would have been funnier and cuter if Mythra was the more, ah, proactive personality as opposed to being an abrasive tsundere. Where Pyra would be mellow and a little shy about expressing her feelings (in other words, "moe"), Mythra would be the sort to flirt much more aggressively and shamelessly. Pyra would make us go "Aww, how cute!" Mythra would make us go "WHOAH! DOWN, GIRL!" Both personalities would be sweet on Rex, but one would be a lot more forward about it than the other.

Although, if they were to write Mythra that way, they'd probably want to make Rex older than 15. Seriously, what is with Japanese media's fixation on teenage protagonists? Like, okay, 16-17 I get because that's actually a legal adult in much of the world, but 15? Kid's not even old enough to drive yet! (And yet he's already a Driver.) So, I guess that's why Mythra's more of the "You pervert!" tsundere stereotype; that's a more acceptable dynamic for a centuries-old sword girl to have with a teenager.

At any rate, they did cover Mythra up more in Ultimate, and added that variant to XC2 itself as DLC.

Edited by Lord_Brand
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10 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Although, if they were to write Mythra that way, they'd probably want to make Rex older than 15. Seriously, what's with Japan's fixation on teenage protagonists? Like, okay, 16-17 I get because that's actually a legal adult in much of the world, but 15? Kid's not even old enough to drive yet! (And yet he's already a Driver.) So, I guess that's why Mythra's more of the "You pervert!" tsundere stereotype; that's a more acceptable dynamic for a centuries-old sword girl to have with a teenager.

I never really considered it much of a problem since I don't think the Aegis girls are supposed to be much older. A little bit older than Rex but only just that. 

Pyrah and Mythra don't seem adults either. They're teenagers who are probably about 16 or if we're really generous 17. Yeah they're um....''big'' but otherwise they both look and act fairly young. Mythra even behaves as Adam's bratty teenage daughter in Torna which limits how old she's supposed to be. The pairing looking off has more to do with Rex being short rather than being too young for them. Technically they're centuries old but they spend most of those centuries in a coma. Its not like Nowi where they actively live for centuries but still act like children. If anything they probably ''lived'' much shorter than Rex. I recall Milton saying Mythra's only been with Adam for two years, and Pyra seemed to have been sealed very shortly after her creation. 

Though yeah. Rex more ''shotacon'' design really isn't helping. Especially with that weird yandere blade you can give him. The original game was more kosher by having an older cast.

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4 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Another possible justification being what TV Tropes calls "Go-Go Enslavement", where the character is forced to wear a provocative outfit by someone else (but good luck getting away with that in today's mainstream media).

I'd like to point out though that the Rule of Sexy isn't just for heterosexual people. A girl can dress sexy to get attention from other women too, just as a muscular man can show off his pecs and abs for other men. Though this isn't really a story/character trope per se, I do hate when people assume straight men are the only humans on the planet who care about sex appeal and fanservice. Anyone of any gender or orientation can enjoy a skimpy outfit, lots of exposed skin, and emphasized muscles or curves. What counts as attractive will vary from person to person, but the fact is, many people are attracted to some kind of titillation. It's in our DNA.

I'm all for justifying sex appeal, and for characters who embrace that aspect of themselves rather than acting embarrassed about it. Really, I think it'd be more empowering to dress and act sexy because you can, rather than letting someone else force you to do so (or not to do so). And, in Pyra and Mythra's case, I think it would have been funnier and cuter if Mythra was the more, ah, proactive personality as opposed to being an abrasive tsundere. Where Pyra would be mellow and a little shy about expressing her feelings (in other words, "moe"), Mythra would be the sort to flirt much more aggressively and shamelessly. Pyra would make us go "Aww, how cute!" Mythra would make us go "WHOAH! DOWN, GIRL!" Both personalities would be sweet on Rex, but one would be a lot more forward about it than the other.

Although, if they were to write Mythra that way, they'd probably want to make Rex older than 15. Seriously, what is with Japanese media's fixation on teenage protagonists? Like, okay, 16-17 I get because that's actually a legal adult in much of the world, but 15? Kid's not even old enough to drive yet! (And yet he's already a Driver.) So, I guess that's why Mythra's more of the "You pervert!" tsundere stereotype; that's a more acceptable dynamic for a centuries-old sword girl to have with a teenager.

At any rate, they did cover Mythra up more in Ultimate, and added that variant to XC2 itself as DLC.

If it actually happened I'd proba my hate it for how fanservice and irrelevant to the plot it is for Mythra to be so sexually aggressive, but thinking of it in a vaccine, the thought of her openly flirting with Rex and him having absolutely nonclue what to do or how to react is pretty damn funny.

(Shout out to Rinoa, the one female video game protagonist I can think of who openly pursues her man).

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dense character in a non comedy focused story. i get it, its there for comedic relief purpose, but if any character cant figure it out (something that reader can even understand the 1st time) after 3rd time or more of it happening, it just break the characterization. because more often than not dense character are not actually dumb. i would rather have them outright reject their feeling  than left it hanging. which is kinda cruel imo but somehow get a pass if they are MC

another trope would be a situation that somehow portray a character misery like its the only misery in the world. dunno what its called. for a example a character doing more harm and tragedy chain than the actual misery that he experienced before, to innocent people that dont have anything to do with him/her. granted its quite rare i forgot the actual example, but usually all other side character somehow are also unreasonable  jerk to justified it (bad/lazy writing).

a character with good intention but stuck with wrong side..especially if its female. save those damsel dang it.

On 12/13/2021 at 7:59 AM, Lord_Brand said:

Another possible justification being what TV Tropes calls "Go-Go Enslavement", where the character is forced to wear a provocative outfit by someone else (but good luck getting away with that in today's mainstream media).

i find it cringe. maybe its because im getting older, but i find it almost offensive making someone do that for amusement purpose (while the character doing it forced to swallow their embarrassment).

On 12/13/2021 at 7:59 AM, Lord_Brand said:

Although, if they were to write Mythra that way, they'd probably want to make Rex older than 15. Seriously, what is with Japanese media's fixation on teenage protagonists? Like, okay, 16-17 I get because that's actually a legal adult in much of the world, but 15? Kid's not even old enough to drive yet! (And yet he's already a Driver.) So, I guess that's why Mythra's more of the "You pervert!" tsundere stereotype; that's a more acceptable dynamic for a centuries-old sword girl to have with a teenager.

the only thing i wish they could change in XC2.

japan fixation toward dreamy age is surreal. no wonder many commit suicide when get older, like they dont believe success when getting older is a thing

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20 minutes ago, joevar said:

japan fixation toward dreamy age is surreal. no wonder many commit suicide when get older, like they dont believe success when getting older is a thing

Im going to go slightly off topic here and into serious discussion territory (and to ensure the topic doesn't get entireltnderailed I'm committing to making this comment alone on the matter) but I don't like how people depict Japan as suicide general. Yes, it has a pretty high suicide rate, but Japan is not the only country with a high suicide rate. The suicide rate in Japan is in fact comparable to that of the US. Japan's suicide rate is 16.5 per 100,000 while the US's is 14.5 per 100,000. That's also less than many European countries like Belgium and Hungary that have higher rates of suicide. He'll Japan doesn't even have the highest suicide rate on East Asia, as South Korea has a higher suicide rate than Japan, and not by a small margin. Yet Japan is the only country that gets saddled with the suicide reputation. No doubt because it's more romanticized in Japan (by which I don't mean the whole Romeo And Juliet romanticized, but more the whole chivalry romance in the form of Hare Kare). But suicide is an increasing epidemic in the world and Japan is far from the only country from dealing with it and not even the worse for it.

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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Im going to go slightly off topic here and into serious discussion territory (and to ensure the topic doesn't get entireltnderailed I'm committing to making this comment alone on the matter) but I don't like how people depict Japan as suicide general. Yes, it has a pretty high suicide rate, but Japan is not the only country with a high suicide rate. The suicide rate in Japan is in fact comparable to that of the US. Japan's suicide rate is 16.5 per 100,000 while the US's is 14.5 per 100,000. That's also less than many European countries like Belgium and Hungary that have higher rates of suicide. He'll Japan doesn't even have the highest suicide rate on East Asia, as South Korea has a higher suicide rate than Japan, and not by a small margin. Yet Japan is the only country that gets saddled with the suicide reputation. No doubt because it's more romanticized in Japan (by which I don't mean the whole Romeo And Juliet romanticized, but more the whole chivalry romance in the form of Hare Kare). But suicide is an increasing epidemic in the world and Japan is far from the only country from dealing with it and not even the worse for it.

fair enough. saying it like i did seems like undermining the other more severe cases somewhere else. i more shocked to how so many japan game like to portray MC whos not older than highschool kid shouldering fate of the world. nothing wrong with that. but then comes the fanservice that range from character with similar age to presumably 30s or older character like they are enticed by some kind of endangered species.

the suicidal part is just needless added argument

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3 hours ago, joevar said:

fair enough. saying it like i did seems like undermining the other more severe cases somewhere else. i more shocked to how so many japan game like to portray MC whos not older than highschool kid shouldering fate of the world. nothing wrong with that. but then comes the fanservice that range from character with similar age to presumably 30s or older character like they are enticed by some kind of endangered species.

the suicidal part is just needless added argument

Well broadly speaking, yes, I do agree that Japan does use young protagonists a bit too much. Though in a bit of a reverse to your stance that's actually what endeared me to Rex, he is just a small bit younger than a typical JRPG/Anime character who are usually solidly put at vaguely the cusp of adulthood while Rex is clearly still a kid (to put numbers on it, 15 vs 17, but largely it's less about solid numbers and more about how the character looks, acts and is placed in the world, see the complaints I'm having currently on the Great Ace Attorney thread about a character who's listed as 16 but clearly should have been older for a multitude of reasons).

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On 12/12/2021 at 7:59 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Another possible justification being what TV Tropes calls "Go-Go Enslavement", where the character is forced to wear a provocative outfit by someone else (but good luck getting away with that in today's mainstream media).

That would be a reasonable justification... it's just too bad it more than likely isn't the case in XC2. You'd think that otherwise it would've been made extra-clear in the story, to show that said outfit isn't just sex appeal for its own sake.

  

On 12/12/2021 at 7:59 PM, Lord_Brand said:

I'd like to point out though that the Rule of Sexy isn't just for heterosexual people. A girl can dress sexy to get attention from other women too, just as a muscular man can show off his pecs and abs for other men. 

Very true. Quite a few yaoi and yuri series take full advantage of that.

 

On 12/12/2021 at 7:59 PM, Lord_Brand said:

I'm all for justifying sex appeal, and for characters who embrace that aspect of themselves rather than acting embarrassed about it. Really, I think it'd be more empowering to dress and act sexy because you can, rather than letting someone else force you to do so (or not to do so). And, in Pyra and Mythra's case, I think it would have been funnier and cuter if Mythra was the more, ah, proactive personality as opposed to being an abrasive tsundere. Where Pyra would be mellow and a little shy about expressing her feelings (in other words, "moe"), Mythra would be the sort to flirt much more aggressively and shamelessly. Pyra would make us go "Aww, how cute!" Mythra would make us go "WHOAH! DOWN, GIRL!" Both personalities would be sweet on Rex, but one would be a lot more forward about it than the other.

That actually sounds pretty good. If only such feedback was given and considered more during the development of games like this, we'd have less nonsensical uses of the Rule of Sexy.

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On 12/13/2021 at 7:32 PM, Jotari said:

Well broadly speaking, yes, I do agree that Japan does use young protagonists a bit too much. Though in a bit of a reverse to your stance that's actually what endeared me to Rex, he is just a small bit younger than a typical JRPG/Anime character who are usually solidly put at vaguely the cusp of adulthood while Rex is clearly still a kid (to put numbers on it, 15 vs 17, but largely it's less about solid numbers and more about how the character looks, acts and is placed in the world, see the complaints I'm having currently on the Great Ace Attorney thread about a character who's listed as 16 but clearly should have been older for a multitude of reasons).

Not sure if this is related, button the subject of Rex,  yo that kid should have been black. He comes from like a tropical island filled with dark skinned people. He looks so blatantly different I thought they had to be setting up a plot point with it. And sure enough he's an orphan whose unknown parents died when he was a baby. But then there's no reveal. Rex is just racially different for no reason. And to make matters worse, it is a plot point that he's genetically connected to the people of that island! So where the hell did he come from? So yeah, that's a trope I dislike, randomly whitening (though I guess darkening is possible too even if can't think of any examples) a character. I throw Robin in that category too. And I'm not type to get excited about racelifting established characters in remakes and the like, but like come on, try to be consistent with what actually exists in your world.

Edited by Jotari
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5 hours ago, Jotari said:

So where the hell did he come from?

Adam's loins?

But its certainly a bit weird yes. That Rex doesn't look like the villagers because he's adopted doesn't really explain much when its revealed he's from a village next door. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Not sure if this is related, button the subject of Rex,  yo that kid should have been black. He comes from like a tropical island filled with dark skinned people. He looks so blatantly different I thought they had to be setting up a plot point with it. And sure enough he's an orphan whose unknown parents died when he was a baby. But then there's no reveal. Rex is just racially different for no reason. And to make matters worse, it is a plot point that he's genetically connected to the people of that island! So where the hell did he come from? So yeah, that's a trope I dislike, randomly whitening (though I guess darkening is possible too even if can't think of any examples) a character. I throw Robin in that category too. And I'm not type to get excited about racelifting established characters in remakes and the like, but like come on, try to be consistent with what actually exists in your world.

I can think of a non white case of this now too, actually. In Frozen 2 (not what I'd call a great movie), there's a black guy as the head of the knights in the Nordic inspired kingdom. That gave me a bit of an eye roll until a line came up how his father brought him to the land to look for a better life and I was like, alright, sure, people travelled, now that you established he's an immigrant and not just randomly of a different race, it's more palatable for me. Meanwhile throughout the movie he's talking about this girlfriend he had back home before being trapped in some magical force field for 20 years. And then at the ending when said girl showed up for a second, she's black too! Black guy's back at home sweetheart just has to be the only other black person around for five thousand kilometers, because god forbid there's a completely normal interracial relationship.

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One story trope that I really dislike, albeit with one exception, is the trope where most of the story's conflict is against a particular antagonist, that antagonist gets enough development, buildup and focus to be interesting and compelling, only for their position as the main antagonist to be promptly hijacked by someone else who declares, "Sike! I'm the real antagonist!" when they haven't received anywhere near the focus, attention, or buildup needed to be a compelling final antagonist.

One of the main reasons I really dislike it because it often feels hollow; we spent all this time focused on the conflict between the protagonist(s) and the first antagonist, only for it to be upstaged by the new villain. But, even when the old villain isn't developed enough to be even remotely interesting as an antagonist, it will still be problematic because it often leaves a ton of loose story ends untied and just causes more problems (Snoke's death in The Last Jedi and the leader of The Hand's death in Marvel's The Defenders are good examples of this).

 

The one and only exception; the only example I can think of where this trope did manage to actually work, is this (Black Clover spoilers ahead):

Spoiler

The reveal of Zagred in the elf arc. The main villains of the first main saga of the series was the Eye of the Midnight Sun, led by the elf Patry, who is the main villain. He is compelling thanks to his clever tactics and his goal being to revive the elf tribe and get revenge on the Clover Kingdom, which wiped out the elf tribe 500 years ago. However, right at the climax, Patry is upstaged as the main villain by a devil named Zagred, who was using Patry as his unwitting pawn. However, it works for a number of reasons:

Over the course of the saga, it gradually becomes increasingly clear that something more is going on: the royal family of the Clover Kingdom wiped out the elf tribe, but the only two royals who knew where the elf tribe would be that day were Lumiere: the best friend of the elf leader Licht, and Tetia: Licht's bride, and it's clear that neither of them would've betrayed the elves. Patry believes that Lumiere must've done it, but it's clear to an attentive viewer/reader that there was more going on, especially when this is combined with other mysteries to which Patry does not know the answer. As a result, Zagred slots in nicely as the answer; the missing piece of the puzzle. 

Another reason is that Zagred's emergence as the true main antagonist does not deprive the conflict with Patry of resolution; Zagred plunges Patry into the depths of despair and corrupts him into a mindless dark elf before setting him against Asta (the protagonist) and Yuno (Asta's main rival), and they must fight both a physical battle against Patry and a mental/emotional battle as Asta confronts Patry inside his mind and forces him to confront the reality of what he's done and help them fight Zagred.

 

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Its more of a design than a character trope but I really dislike the ''beauty mark'' trope where a character has one singular prominent mole somewhere on their face. Contrary to the name I find it rather off putting and it also highlights how artificial the design is. To my annoyance it seems to have gotten more prevalent in recent years. 

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On 12/24/2021 at 11:00 AM, vanguard333 said:

One story trope that I really dislike, albeit with one exception, is the trope where most of the story's conflict is against a particular antagonist, that antagonist gets enough development, buildup and focus to be interesting and compelling, only for their position as the main antagonist to be promptly hijacked by someone else who declares, "Sike! I'm the real antagonist!" when they haven't received anywhere near the focus, attention, or buildup needed to be a compelling final antagonist.

hmm sounds like Naruto, and some other big hit titles.. i think its not that uncommon 😕

the way i see it, its like the story want us the reader to give a sliver of our sympathy for current big protagonist before the final ultimate foe that does not need or deserve any redemption. since you know the antagonist got so much char development people might start to agree with them, but making them repent (might) feels flat, so might as well backstabbed by final-last-ultimate enemy to gain that minuscule sympathy.

On 12/27/2021 at 8:35 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

Its more of a design than a character trope but I really dislike the ''beauty mark'' trope where a character has one singular prominent mole somewhere on their face. Contrary to the name I find it rather off putting and it also highlights how artificial the design is. To my annoyance it seems to have gotten more prevalent in recent years. 

hey people with (small) mole on their face can be actually attractive too you know. provided its placed just right ofc which is purely luck

on design case, thats just easy/cheap way to differentiate character face without trying to make it different i guess. designing different face is hard while keeping the same quality. but if the mole somehow placed on a woman breast that has voluptuous chest that also happen to like to show it, now thats where i start questioning the purpose

Edited by joevar
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10 hours ago, joevar said:

hmm sounds like Naruto, and some other big hit titles.. i think its not that uncommon 😕

the way i see it, its like the story want us the reader to give a sliver of our sympathy for current big antagonist before the final ultimate foe that does not need or deserve any redemption. since you know the antagonist got so much char development people might start to agree with them, but making them repent (might) feels flat, so might as well backstabbed by final-last-ultimate enemy to gain that minuscule sympathy.

There are quite a few examples I can think of; I avoided listing examples in part because the list would be really long. Funny enough, though I have seen Naruto, I wasn't actually going to list Naruto or other anime; I was going to list examples like Zant getting hijacked by Ganon in Twilight Princess.

That could be the case, but most of the time, the story would've been better if they just let the current big antagonist be the final ultimate villain.

 

On 12/27/2021 at 5:35 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

Its more of a design than a character trope but I really dislike the ''beauty mark'' trope where a character has one singular prominent mole somewhere on their face. Contrary to the name I find it rather off putting and it also highlights how artificial the design is. To my annoyance it seems to have gotten more prevalent in recent years. 

I'm rarely one to notice when a character has one singular mole, but I know what you mean; for me, being someone with freckles, I always find it weird how, most of the time, when a story wants a character to have freckles, that character will only have four freckles arranged in a diamond on each facial cheek, and nowhere else. They pretty much never have any more freckles than that or anywhere else on their body.

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You do have artificial beauty marks that are applied as a form of cosmetics.

On 12/23/2021 at 4:41 AM, Jotari said:

I can think of a non white case of this now too, actually. In Frozen 2 (not what I'd call a great movie), there's a black guy as the head of the knights in the Nordic inspired kingdom. That gave me a bit of an eye roll until a line came up how his father brought him to the land to look for a better life and I was like, alright, sure, people travelled, now that you established he's an immigrant and not just randomly of a different race, it's more palatable for me.

Yeah, I hate when stories randomly shove in people of different races without an explanation of why those different races exist. That's something that drives me nuts about modern Magic; sets like Innistrad, Throne of Eldraine, and Kaldheim just randomly have black people in there because "representation", but there's no justifiable reason why anyone in those planes would have heavy amounts of melanin in their skin. Dominaria and Amonkhet do it right; Dominaria has an equivalent to Africa in the form of Jamuraa. Sisay and Teferi hail from Jamuraa, and Jamuraa was the focus of the Mirage block. Amonkhet is basically Egypt, which is part of Africa, so it's not hard to believe people with dark skin would live there, either. Even Theros is somewhat believable since it's presumably quite warm there, too.

The upcoming set is Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, which is based on Japan, so I expect that most of the humans there will be distinctly Japanese in their ethnicity. If I see one human in that set who is neither Japanese-looking nor a planeswalker (and yes, that includes white people), I'm calling shenanigans.

I'm all for diversity, but do it right. Don't shove in/racelift characters for the sake of checking a diversity box. If you're gonna have different races in your story, commit and explain. Don't just have a token in there, have an entire populace of people of that ethnicity with varied designs and don't shove them all into one town unless it can be justified, like by in-series prejudice (if your elves consider other races beneath them, it makes sense that they don't travel outside far from their little forest utopia much). If inter-cultural and inter-racial travel and trade are commonplace, show different ethnicities visiting different towns, maybe even setting up homes if the setting allows for it.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

You do have artificial beauty marks that are applied as a form of cosmetics.

Yeah, I hate when stories randomly shove in people of different races without an explanation of why those different races exist. That's something that drives me nuts about modern Magic; sets like Innistrad, Throne of Eldraine, and Kaldheim just randomly have black people in there because "representation", but there's no justifiable reason why anyone in those planes would have heavy amounts of melanin in their skin. Dominaria and Amonkhet do it right; Dominaria has an equivalent to Africa in the form of Jamuraa. Sisay and Teferi hail from Jamuraa, and Jamuraa was the focus of the Mirage block. Amonkhet is basically Egypt, which is part of Africa, so it's not hard to believe people with dark skin would live there, either. Even Theros is somewhat believable since it's presumably quite warm there, too.

The upcoming set is Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, which is based on Japan, so I expect that most of the humans there will be distinctly Japanese in their ethnicity. If I see one human in that set who is neither Japanese-looking nor a planeswalker (and yes, that includes white people), I'm calling shenanigans.

I'm all for diversity, but do it right. Don't shove in/racelift characters for the sake of checking a diversity box. If you're gonna have different races in your story, commit and explain. Don't just have a token in there, have an entire populace of people of that ethnicity with varied designs and don't shove them all into one town unless it can be justified, like by in-series prejudice (if your elves consider other races beneath them, it makes sense that they don't travel outside far from their little forest utopia much). If inter-cultural and inter-racial travel and trade are commonplace, show different ethnicities visiting different towns, maybe even setting up homes if the setting allows for it.

It's not so much the randomness that bothers me, but the lack of consistency that makes it feel like tokenism.  I don't really care that Bassilio is black in Awakening, despite coming from the cold northern climates with countrymen like Olivia...maybe if Awakening cared more about its world building that would actually bother me. But Validar and Robin being related is actually a plot point that the appearances of the characters involved contradicts with the lack of consistency. Coming to think of it, while I wouldn't expect them to go through with it, especially when they're not even giving a skin tone option for Robin, a Morgan fathered by Basilio should have much darker skin. That'd be a kid with 3/4 dark skinned grandparents, but I guess Robin's mother is just so completely lightskinned, her tone overwrites the genetics of anyone her lineage reproduces with.

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On 12/30/2021 at 7:10 AM, Lord_Brand said:

Yeah, I hate when stories randomly shove in people of different races without an explanation of why those different races exist. That's something that drives me nuts about modern Magic; sets like Innistrad, Throne of Eldraine, and Kaldheim just randomly have black people in there because "representation", but there's no justifiable reason why anyone in those planes would have heavy amounts of melanin in their skin. Dominaria and Amonkhet do it right; Dominaria has an equivalent to Africa in the form of Jamuraa. Sisay and Teferi hail from Jamuraa, and Jamuraa was the focus of the Mirage block. Amonkhet is basically Egypt, which is part of Africa, so it's not hard to believe people with dark skin would live there, either. Even Theros is somewhat believable since it's presumably quite warm there, too.

To some extend I think the problem isn't as much other ethnicities in fantasy worlds. I think the chief problem is a lack of originality in modern fantasy worlds.

Your usual fantasy world is almost always quintessential medieval which usual means its Medieval England, maybe medieval France if the writers are feeling particularly bold. And yeah, a sassy black neighbor in medieval Paris, or an Asian Knight in medieval England does look out of place.

But the medieval world doesn't begin in London and end in Paris. There are tons more countries to draw inspiration from and many of those countries would be pretty ideal for representation. Why not base a fantasy world on medieval Spain where its close proximity to another continent and kingdoms of invading outsiders could easily create a setting full of all sorts of ethnicities. Or base a country of the famously multicultural Sicilian kingdom. Place your setting in an international trading hub based on Venice or Constantinople or just have an Arabian Nights setting rather than a Medieval English one.

 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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I heavily disagree with the notion that every character with a different ethnicity than the majority needs a justification to exist, even if the setting is your standard British Medieval Fantasy. If the entire planet is elaborately mapped out, then sure, it would be strange to have, what, exactly three black people in the whole world. But if there's a "most faraway country" that Not-Britain has trading relations with, it's not too far-fetched that, say, a trader from the other side of Most Faraway Country ends up in Most Faraway Country, and from there they (or one of their children) travels to not-Britain. If that person is a main character, it would be nice to learn about that kind of background, of course, but a random potion seller most definitely doesn't need a "Why aren't you white?!" dialogue option.

In the real world, trade between western Africa and the Maghreb has been established well before the age of discovery, so that kind of story (Timbuktuan trader ends up in Morocco, later he or his child travels from there to Europe) would not be too outlandish. I know that there have been Africans or children of Africans in Medieval / Early Modern Europe, even outside of Iberia, although Maghrebians would most likely have been far more common than sub-saharan Africans.

Random examples: Alessandro de' Medici, first duke of Florence, Adrian of Canterbury.

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