What story/character tropes do you dislike or hate?

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 12/29/2021 at 10:10 PM, Lord_Brand said:

 

The upcoming set is Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, which is based on Japan, so I expect that most of the humans there will be distinctly Japanese in their ethnicity. If I see one human in that set who is neither Japanese-looking nor a planeswalker (and yes, that includes white people), I'm calling shenanigans.

The Portuguese had a noticeable presence in Japan throughout most of the Sengoku Jidai, the big civil war that was the height of the Samurai. It wasn't until the third Tokugawa Shogun that Japan instituted its extremely isolationist policies that actively worked to remove European influence from Japan. Even then minor incursions by European entering Japan anyway wasn't that unheard of, although all such efforts were eventually driven off until Commodore Perry.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 8:24 AM, pong said:

 I know that there have been Africans or children of Africans in Medieval / Early Modern Europe, even outside of Iberia, although Maghrebians would most likely have been far more common than sub-saharan Africans.

I will also note that the Roman Empire spread African people into a large swaths of Europe, as it was good military sense to ship your soldiers across the empire (as more local troops might balk at fighting people they know), and as such there are historical records of black Roman soldiers from as far away as Ethiopia being stationed all the way on Hadrian's wall between Britain and Scotland (see the accounts of Emperor Septimius Severus visiting the wall at Luguvallum in the Historia Augusta).

Speaking of Ethiopia

On 12/31/2021 at 6:20 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

 

Your usual fantasy world is almost always quintessential medieval which usual means its Medieval England, maybe medieval France if the writers are feeling particularly bold. And yeah, a sassy black neighbor in medieval Paris, or an Asian Knight in medieval England does look out of place.

Fun fact, the Ethiopian Emperor sent a mission of 30 people to visit the Pope in Rome, and after discovering about the anti-pope in Avignon, then went to Medieval France to visit that Pope as well, and even met with the French king with an offer to join in a two-pronged invasion of Egypt (although nothing ever came of those talks).

Overall, I think the takeaway is that even in history, no where was ever as ethnically pure, or isolated as all the propaganda portrays, so why should fantasy be constrained in such a way.

[Lord_Brand]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The Portuguese had a noticeable presence in Japan throughout most of the Sengoku Jidai, the big civil war that was the height of the Samurai. It wasn't until the third Tokugawa Shogun that Japan instituted its extremely isolationist policies that actively worked to remove European influence from Japan. Even then minor incursions by European entering Japan anyway wasn't that unheard of, although all such efforts were eventually driven off until Commodore Perry.

I will also note that the Roman Empire spread African people into a large swaths of Europe, as it was good military sense to ship your soldiers across the empire (as more local troops might balk at fighting people they know), and as such there are historical records of black Roman soldiers from as far away as Ethiopia being stationed all the way on Hadrian's wall between Britain and Scotland (see the accounts of Emperor Septimius Severus visiting the wall at Luguvallum in the Historia Augusta).

Speaking of Ethiopia

Fun fact, the Ethiopian Emperor sent a mission of 30 people to visit the Pope in Rome, and after discovering about the anti-pope in Avignon, then went to Medieval France to visit that Pope as well, and even met with the French king with an offer to join in a two-pronged invasion of Egypt (although nothing ever came of those talks).

Overall, I think the takeaway is that even in history, no where was ever as ethnically pure, or isolated as all the propaganda portrays, so why should fantasy be constrained in such a way.

History can justify ethnic diversity thanks to diverse biomes and the practice of moving people from one biome to another, as you just demonstrated. Planes of Magic are rarely as diverse as real-world Earth (Dominaria being one of the few exceptions). If one of the colder planes I listed has some kind of equivalent to Africa, then it makes sense for black people to appear. But that has to be mentioned for me to believe it. I know not of any such land in Eldraine, Innistrad, or Kaldheim, so black people look incredibly out of place on those planes, and therefore like they were inserted purely for the sake of "wokeness", which makes the gesture feel much cheaper and shallower. Meanwhile, the heavy presence of black people in Dominaria doesn't feel out of place at all, since Dominaria has a land based on Africa from which they come, and that land has a developed culture, making the effort feel genuine.

What I'm asking for here is thorough and consistent worldbuilding, not less diversity. If you want a particular race or ethnicity in your story, fine, just don't shove them in without thinking about how to properly justify them being there. Show that you actually care about the significance of their race within your world and aren't just pandering to activists with superficial token representation. Shoving in a token minority without thought to their background is lazy and insulting.

That said, I feel different races and ethnicities deserve a chance to shine on their own rather than all being lumped together all the time. Humanity does not consist simply of "white" and "non-white" people. Humanity consists of English, Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Welsh, Polish, Finnish, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Belgian, German, Austrian, Slavic, Russian, Icelandic, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Arab, Persian, Turkish, Jewish, Indian, Mongolian, Filipino, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Aboriginal Australian, Colonial Australian, Native North American, Colonial North American, Inuit, Canadian, Cajun, Creole, Mexican, South American, African, and dozens more.

I think a good measure of how much someone actually cares about writing a particular race is to give them this challenge: Rather than write a cast of characters who are all different races, try writing a cast of characters who are all of one race, like a cast that's all African or all Japanese. See how diverse you can make that cast in terms of design, personality, occupation, etc. When your entire cast is one race, you can't fall back on stereotypes to set your characters apart; your strengths and weaknesses as a writer and designer will show through since none of your characters is a token. Diversity isn't just about diversity of races but also diversity within a given race.

And the fact is, no story has enough room in it for every possible combination of race, gender, culture, build, personality, orientation, religion, political beliefs, etc. You cannot represent everyone in any given work; even if you could, you'd dilute that work's distinct identity thanks to "kitchen sink" syndrome, not to mention end up making the work feel samey compared to every other work that tries to check every combination of boxes as well. Rather than worry about representation, it's better to focus on writing characters you like, with their ethnicities, genders, etc. being determined by your personal preferences, as that will serve as the truest expression of your own imagination. The more distinct our stories are, the more diverse our selection will become. That, to me, is the kind of diversity we should really be striving for.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

 When your entire cast is one race, you can't fall back on stereotypes to set your characters apart;

You underestimate the numerical diversity of distinct Italian sterotypes XD

[ping]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:07 PM, Lord_Brand said:

History can justify ethnic diversity thanks to diverse biomes and the practice of moving people from one biome to another, as you just demonstrated. Planes of Magic are rarely as diverse as real-world Earth (Dominaria being one of the few exceptions). If one of the colder planes I listed has some kind of equivalent to Africa, then it makes sense for black people to appear. But that has to be mentioned for me to believe it. I know not of any such land in Eldraine, Innistrad, or Kaldheim, so black people look incredibly out of place on those planes, and therefore like they were inserted purely for the sake of "wokeness", which makes the gesture feel much cheaper and shallower. Meanwhile, the heavy presence of black people in Dominaria doesn't feel out of place at all, since Dominaria has a land based on Africa from which they come, and that land has a developed culture, making the effort feel genuine.

I'm not familiar with any MtG lore, so I can't take an informed position on any of those examples. If those "planes" are just three villages in a magic bubble, then sure, it would be strange if there were a total of three human of a different ethnicity in an entire world, although I'd imagine that that extreme would have other issues with "realism", as well.

However, it seems that you're basing your argument on a very, very specific type of fantasy setting. As soon as you generalise it, I still heavily disagree with the idea that any deviation from an ethnically uniform setting is "for the sake of "wokeness"" (ughhh). Unless there's some impregnable magical barrier at every country's border, the image of isolated nations is complete poppycock. Different communities will trade. There will be migration between them. There's records of Swiss monks using cloves (you know, from the Moluccas) to season their fish in the 9th century. Isolation is not the default, so "breaches" in isolation don't have to be meticulously explained.

And maybe the black trader in the Medieval Fantasy city is just meant to indicate that this city is a big trade hub? My apologies, but the tendency in gaming discourse to attribute any non-default characters as fucking ""wokeness"" and "pandering" (ughhhh) really ticks me off.

On 1/3/2022 at 12:07 PM, Lord_Brand said:

When your entire cast is one race, you can't fall back on stereotypes to set your characters apart; your strengths and weaknesses as a writer and designer will show through since none of your characters is a token.

...look, I don't want to make this about 3DS FE, but I don't believe that Basilius and Flavia are the most "stereotypical" characters in Awakening's cast.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Look guys. I hate to barge in. But just make sure you aren't confusing this-

Spoiler

with this-

Spoiler

and I'm sure you'll find more common ground to stand on.

[vanguard333]

I dislike the trope A Sinister Clue: basically, any scenario where the hero deduces that the culprit must've been left-handed. I dislike this trope less from its existence and more from its sheer overuse; once or twice and it would be a neat clue: approximately 10% of the population is left-handed, so it can beat a neat way to reduce the list of suspects. However, it is used so often that I am sick and tired of it.

More than that, speaking as a left-handed person, I can't help but think that the fact that, the vast majority of the time that there's a left-handed character in fiction, it's in the context of this trope, creates some unfortunate implications; it feels less like a hero uncovering a clue, and more like some kind of persistent carryover from a time when left-handed people were stigmatized and considered to be evil.

Another reason is that, half the time that this trope is used, the person doesn't necessarily have to actually be left-handed. For instance, 2% of the population is mixed-handed (one hand is dominant for some things and the other hand is dominant for other things) or ambidextrous (both hands are equally dominant for all tasks). Just because the culprit must've used their left hand for one particular task doesn't mean that their left hand is always dominant. Also, sometimes people use their non-dominant hand for certain things; it happens. So the hero's logic of assuming that the person must've been left-handed is actually rather shaky a lot of the time as it often doesn't take stuff like this into account.

And, finally, it's just boring. The writer is writing their own unique story with their own unique characters; surely they could come up with something more unique/specific, right? That's usually the more interesting mysteries; where the clues are more tailored to the particular narrative. "The culprit must've been left-handed" is very generic.

[Lord_Brand]

I don't know if this is a particularly widespread trope, but one thing I hated about the Kung Fu Panda TV series was how it often felt like the writers had it out for Po. He would often be at fault for the problems going on in the episode, compounded by his personality being derailed into an arrogant jerk (incidentally, that's what DreamWorks originally intended him to be, but Jack Black wisely advised them to make him a more humble and likeable character). The absolute worst example of this I can think of is the episode about the food shortage, where not only is Po written as an idiot like usual but they had to insert a dirty old woman and a villain who is quite literally doing evil for its own sake, a combination of sheer discomfort and the most one-dimensional kind of villain you can possibly think of. Jeez, people, we're supposed to root for Po, here. Yes, he needs to learn and grow and thus needs to have flaws, but there's a marked difference between "humble and slightly lazy guy who has to learn how to muster up a bit more effort" and "selfish egotistic idiot who does nothing but cause problems and learns nothing in the process".

Like, look at Po in the original film. Yes, his laziness does get in the way of his training, but he himself is not the cause of the main problem in the story (were this an episode of the show, Po would have somehow been responsible for Tai Lung being released from prison). And even when he's being lazy, he's still likeable because he's at least making some kind of effort and acting like a complete dork the whole time. Po's flaws make him relatable and allow us to sympathize with him. He never intended to become the Dragon Warrior, heck, he never intended to become an actual martial artist. He dreamt of it, sure, but he was content to watch his heroes, the Furious Five, practice their martial arts and wanted to see which of them would be chosen to become the Dragon Warrior. And yet, despite his laziness and seemingly sheer dumb luck, Po's love for martial arts also benefitted him by giving him a natural enthusiasm for learning. However, he had to learn to love himself and his own unique shape in order to realize his destiny as the Dragon Warrior.

I also hated how the Riders of Berk pigeonholed Snotlout into being a hate sink and at times a borderline monster even though he's supposed to be one of the good guys. I get it, he was a jerk in the original film, but he also warmed up to Hiccup faster than Astrid did. Why play him up as the bully-turned-rival? That was lazy writing, and it lead to my least favorite episode of Riders, the one where they're competing in the games. They seriously expect us to believe Snotlout outperformed Astrid, easily the most competent of the kids (barring Hiccup's expertise in dragon training)? And they seriously had Astrid criticize Hiccup for his rivalry with Snotlout when she's usually the one engaging in petty scuffles with the latter? Worst of all, Snotlout gets to win, pleasing his jerk of a dad, and neither learns anything from it, thereby denying any sense of character growth and basically rewarding toxicity. The whole episode was a colossal waste.

I dunno, seemed like writers for DreamWorks shows at the time were under contractual obligations to include things like "poop jokes in episode 1" and "designated asshole character who the writers hate and will do everything in their power to make the viewers hate as well". A real shame too, those shows could actually be quite good when the writers could be bothered to do their jobs right.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Here's one: when one character suddenly has an idea or realization, and doesn't tell anyone else about it, but goes away wordlessly to pursue it. Especially if it happens in the middle of a conversation. Like, no, by all means, please keep holding the audience in suspense, even though it's not in your or your allies' interest.

[Karboy101]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:45 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's one: when one character suddenly has an idea or realization, and doesn't tell anyone else about it, but goes away wordlessly to pursue it. Especially if it happens in the middle of a conversation. Like, no, by all means, please keep holding the audience in suspense, even though it's not in your or your allies' interest.

Honestly, where the hell are you going? What the hell is actually so important that you also can't bother to tell anyone of its importance?

[Jotari]

On 4/18/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's one: when one character suddenly has an idea or realization, and doesn't tell anyone else about it, but goes away wordlessly to pursue it. Especially if it happens in the middle of a conversation. Like, no, by all means, please keep holding the audience in suspense, even though it's not in your or your allies' interest.

To be fair, I've done that in real life just to troll people.