What story/character tropes do you dislike or hate?

[vanguard333]

20 hours ago, Armchair General said:

For me it's the "chosen hero." If you're going to save the world, can you NOT suck the suspense out of it?

To be fair, there are lots of ways to play with the "chosen hero" trope, and most stories these days don't play it 100% straight; instead trying to play with it in ways that suck out less of the suspense.

 

4 hours ago, Lethakitty said:

I just hate Mind Control/Possession/Brainwashing of a character for conflict among the party. i see it too much in media and find it as lazy

Yeah, I can agree with that in general (just with a few exceptions; a certain plot event in Black Clover that I can't say without spoilers coming to mind).

For me, the biggest problem with it is that a person's free will is a powerful thing, so it feels cheap when a writer pulls those tropes just to make characters do something they wouldn't normally do. Thankfully, there is one variant of the mind-control trope that's becoming increasingly popular and averts this problem (and is less lazy): More Than Mind Control. 

More Than Mind Control - TV Tropes

Basically, the person doing the controlling uses a combination of mind-control/possession/brainwashing and psychological manipulation to exploit a person's free will rather than undermine it. A classic example of this trope is the One Ring from The Lord of the Rings, and more recent examples include pretty much every recent example of a hypnotist villain; now that it's popular knowledge that hypnotism can't do anything that the person doesn't want to do on some level, every recent example of hypnotist villains are written as getting around that by also being good at psychological manipulation and "getting inside people's heads".

[Armchair General]

13 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

To be fair, there are lots of ways to play with the "chosen hero" trope, and most stories these days don't play it 100% straight; instead trying to play with it in ways that suck out less of the suspense.

 

Yeah, but most the stuff that I had, growing up, revolved around shit happening and a child or a teenager is chosen by the gods.to save the world... As opposed to literally everyone else.

 

It just got old after I tried out the Dragon Quest games. Granted, those 2 were remakes.

[Venger_06]

7 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Yeah, but most the stuff that I had, growing up, revolved around shit happening and a child or a teenager is chosen by the gods.to save the world... As opposed to literally everyone else.

It just got old after I tried out the Dragon Quest games. Granted, those 2 were remakes.

Try Hand of the Heavenly Bride (Dragon Quest V), it adds a twist to the formula.

[Armchair General]

3 hours ago, Maof06 said:

Try Hand of the Heavenly Bride (Dragon Quest V), it adds a twist to the formula.

That was my second DQ game, lmao. It's kind of good, really.

[Etrurian emperor]

I suppose the whole Isekai trope of ''Main character was just an average high school student until he got hit by a truck that send him to another world where he can create the biggest harem!'' is a trope that instantly turns me off. 

It was a staple of hilariously bad fanfiction for so long that I was surprised when it became among the more dominant forces within actual anime in the past couple of years. Its often accompanied by the idea that this new world is actually a video game with stats and gameplay menus which also turns me off. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I suppose the whole Isekai trope of ''Main character was just an average high school student until he got hit by a truck that send him to another world where he can create the biggest harem!'' is a trope that instantly turns me off. 

It was a staple of hilariously bad fanfiction for so long that I was surprised when it became among the more dominant forces within actual anime in the past couple of years.

I agree with this. I mean, someone from our world ending up in a fantasy realm is a concept with a ton of potential, so it's weird that the most common thing Isekai use it for is wish-fulfillment and harem-building. It says something that the only Isekai I've watched is a parody of that stuff.

Perhaps what makes that trope even worse for me is that the very first anime I ever watched (and enjoyed) was a complete aversion of that stuff: it was a Japanese & Canadian show called Spider Riders with a magical subterranean world called Arachna. In it, the protagonist doesn't get hit by a truck or anything; in fact, rather uniquely among "character goes from our world into a magical world" stories, he deliberately goes looking to find Arachna to prove that his late grandpa's stories about there being such a place were true, there's no harem-building or anything, he has to earn his place in the elite warrior class (the titular Spider Riders, called that because they ride giant armored spiders into battle) and people initially regard him with suspicion because there's a prophecy that a human from our world (as they call it, the "Outer World") will bring great doom upon Arachna and be the greatest threat it ever experiences. 

Spoiler

In a clever twist, the prophecy is telling the truth, but it isn't talking about Hunter. The series' main villain turns out to have originally been a human from the Outer World.

 

[Cosmic_Dragon]

First of all would be Tsunderes. I just really don't understand the appeal for this kind of character, their whole attitude isn't cute or funny, it's just annoying and gets tiring pretty quickly to me. Why would you want to be with someone who's constantly berating you or calling you "idiot/stupid" for simply showing affection to them? (even if they "don't really mean it"/"are just being shy about it").

Also, the "my girlfriend is a goddess/deity/alien/some kind of special magical girl" trope, especially if it's supposed to be the story's main romance since most of the time it basically guarantees that the romance will never actually feel equal,  and it will most likely just end up throwing the protagonist under the shadow of their partner (who by all means and purposes should've been the actual main character, but the story still wants to pretend that it's actually the guy for some reason) looking at you Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I mean, it's not like this trope cannot be handled well actually (look at Robin and Starfire from Teen Titans), but more often than not it's just not.

Then there's the Isekai trope. Okay, it's not so much the genre I dislike, more so the way it's handled. I mean, the whole "spirited away to a magical/sci-fi world" has tons of potential and many interesting opportunities for story-telling, so I don't really understand why so many people who write those kinds of stories in Japan tend to waste it by simply making it a pander-y fantasy about all the girls the protagonist meets in this world falling for him in one way or another for some inexplicable reason (especially when the guy's basically just a nerdy average joe with absolutely nothing special or really noteworthy about him). 

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

First of all would be Tsunderes. I just really don't understand the appeal for this kind of character, their whole attitude isn't cute or funny, it's just annoying and gets tiring pretty quickly to me. Why would you want to be with someone who's constantly berating you or calling you "idiot/stupid" for simply showing affection to them? (even if they "don't really mean it"/"are just being shy about it").

Also, the "my girlfriend is a goddess/deity/alien/some kind of special magical girl" trope, especially if it's supposed to be the story's main romance since most of the time it basically guarantees that the romance will never actually feel equal,  and it will most likely just end up throwing the protagonist under the shadow of their partner (who by all means and purposes should've been the actual main character, but the story still wants to pretend that it's actually the guy for some reason) looking at you Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I mean, it's not like this trope cannot be handled well actually (look at Robin and Starfire from Teen Titans), but more often than not it's just not.

Then there's the Isekai trope. Okay, it's not so much the genre I dislike, more so the way it's handled. I mean, the whole "spirited away to a magical/sci-fi world" has tons of potential and many interesting opportunities for story-telling, so I don't really understand why so many people who write those kinds of stories in Japan tend to waste it by simply making it a pander-y fantasy about all the girls the protagonist meets in this world falling for him in one way or another for some inexplicable reason (especially when the guy's basically just a nerdy average joe with absolutely nothing special or really noteworthy about him). 

1. Yeah; I don't understand the appeal either. Ottservia's probably explained it to me several times now and I'm still not sure I get it. The two examples I can think of where I actually liked a Tsundere character were cases where it was tied to their character development: they start out constantly berating and insulting, and then become more affectionate after character development. Those two examples were Midna from Twilight Princess and Riley Miller from Valkyria Chronicles 4.

2. I can agree that that one's definitely one of those, "If you're going to write it at all, write it well" tropes. I enjoy it when it's done well, but it can easily be done poorly.

Incidentally, I recently had to read a story that's probably one of the ones that started this trope: Lanval. It's a 12th Century romance about an Arthurian Knight who's down on his luck and socially forgotten until he ends up in a secret relationship with a lady of the fay. One reason it works is that the romance is intentionally lopsided: the story's a critique of the courtly world in the High Middle Ages, and the fay lady is presented by the story as something outside and beyond the courtly society. 

3. Yeah; I completely agree. Ending up in a magical world has a ton of potential; shame it's largely used for pandering and harem stuff. One story I've actually seen use that potential is also the first anime I ever actually saw almost in full: Spider Riders. 

[Cosmic_Dragon]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

1. Yeah; I don't understand the appeal either. Ottservia's probably explained it to me several times now and I'm still not sure I get it. The two examples I can think of where I actually liked a Tsundere character were cases where it was tied to their character development: they start out constantly berating and insulting, and then become more affectionate after character development. Those two examples were Midna from Twilight Princess and Riley Miller from Valkyria Chronicles 4.

Personally, I never saw Midna as tsundere. I mean, she certainly has a sassy attitude, but she comes across as far too mature to me to see her like a tsundere (I certainly don't think that's the way she'd act if she was to ever get into a relationship with Link or anyone else). But anyway, I'd say that a character that I actually found a good depiction of the Tsundere trope would be Asuka from Evangelion. Why? Because she pretty much shows what would happen if someone actually acted like that with someone they like. Her character isn't played for cutesy stuff or funny things, it's taken seriously, and shows that that kind of attitude most likely wouldn't be appealing.

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

2. I can agree that that one's definitely one of those, "If you're going to write it at all, write it well" tropes. I enjoy it when it's done well, but it can easily be done poorly.

Incidentally, I recently had to read a story that's probably one of the ones that started this trope: Lanval. It's a 12th Century romance about an Arthurian Knight who's down on his luck and socially forgotten until he ends up in a secret relationship with a lady of the fay. One reason it works is that the romance is intentionally lopsided: the story's a critique of the courtly world in the High Middle Ages, and the fay lady is presented by the story as something outside and beyond the courtly society. 

Hmm, sounds interesting. Gonna have to check it out later.

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

3. Yeah; I completely agree. Ending up in a magical world has a ton of potential; shame it's largely used for pandering and harem stuff. One story I've actually seen use that potential is also the first anime I ever actually saw almost in full: Spider Riders. 

Can Digimon be counted as Isekai? If it can then I'd say that's the first "Isekai" anime that I saw.

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, Cosmic_Dragon said:

Can Digimon be counted as Isekai? If it can then I'd say that's the first "Isekai" anime that I saw.

It kinda lacks the harem aspect. I think the frequent trips back to the normal world and how the Digi world affects it also doesn't combine entirely well with the Isekai gimmick of settling down in another world. 

 

[Ottservia]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:19 AM, Cosmic_Dragon said:

First of all would be Tsunderes. I just really don't understand the appeal for this kind of character, their whole attitude isn't cute or funny, it's just annoying and gets tiring pretty quickly to me. Why would you want to be with someone who's constantly berating you or calling you "idiot/stupid" for simply showing affection to them? (even if they "don't really mean it"/"are just being shy about it").

Well the answer is in the bolded portion. Tsunderes typically mean the opposite of what they say. You never take a tsundere’s word at face value because usually they don’t mean it and are awful at hiding it too boot. It’s like an angry kitten in that sense. To explain it as plainly as I can, it’s like knowing that that’s not how they truly feel and getting them to want to admit and be open with their feelings is what makes it all so sweet. They’re just fun to tease too because of how much they try to hide their feelings but are just awful at it. And speaking personally, I find it charming when a character who is usually abrasive shows a softer side to them. The contrast honestly endears me more to their character because it shows they have more depth to them than what’s on the surface.

 

21 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

1. Yeah; I don't understand the appeal either. Ottservia's probably explained it to me several times now and I'm still not sure I get it. The two examples I can think of where I actually liked a Tsundere character were cases where it was tied to their character development: they start out constantly berating and insulting, and then become more affectionate after character development. Those two examples were Midna from Twilight Princess and Riley Miller from Valkyria Chronicles 4.

2. I can agree that that one's definitely one of those, "If you're going to write it at all, write it well" tropes. I enjoy it when it's done well, but it can easily be done poorly.

The usually most well written tsunderes typically tie it to their character development in some way like Mythra, Severa, Taiga, Rin, and Asuka. It’s the cliche poorly written ones that perpetuate the awful stereotypes of the archetype. But even the cliche ones can be cute when handled well. Tsundere junkfood as I like to call it. 

[vanguard333]

6 hours ago, Ottservia said:

The usually most well written tsunderes typically tie it to their character development in some way like Mythra, Severa, Taiga, Rin, and Asuka. It’s the cliche poorly written ones that perpetuate the awful stereotypes of the archetype. But even the cliche ones can be cute when handled well. Tsundere junkfood as I like to call it. 

You'll probably really enjoy Noelle from Black Clover then, now that I think about it. She's actually a really well-written example, now that I think about it. I personally find some of her Tsundere antics more annoying than anything else, but I can't deny that her nature as a Tsundere is tied to her character development and there are some small moments that do manage to get a chuckle out of me.

Plus, she's just a really well-written character in general and, unlike at least a few female leads in shonen anime, she actually keeps up with the male leads in terms of power and skill, to the point where one of the meme nicknames for her is "The Anti-Sakura."

[Etrurian emperor]

I'm often very skeptical about Tsunderes. They can work but its very easy for them to go horribly wrong. I find that they work best if they are harsh but also very fair about the criticism they dish out. Felix is an asshole but at least he almost always has a good point to make. Tsunderes become exhausting when they are continuously unreasonable and repeatedly make their ''friends'' jump through hoops to prove their loyalty. The textbook example of that would be Mitsunari from Samurai Warriors. 

To some extend I give younger or more immature tsunderes a pass. Takumi and Mythra are clearly just kids who have a lot of growing up to do. Takumi also stands out among the tsunderes in that once he's won over he'll stay won over and doesn't insist on repeating the whole tsundere routine. Oboro and Hinata already being so obviously close to the prickly Takumi is an early sign of that and their presence helps sell Takumi as a softer and more reasonable version of a tsundere. 

[Ottservia]

49 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm often very skeptical about Tsunderes. They can work but its very easy for them to go horribly wrong. I find that they work best if they are harsh but also very fair about the criticism they dish out. Felix is an asshole but at least he almost always has a good point to make. Tsunderes become exhausting when they are continuously unreasonable and repeatedly make their ''friends'' jump through hoops to prove their loyalty. The textbook example of that would be Mitsunari from Samurai Warriors. 

I mean the entire point of a tsundere is that they’re unreasonable. It’s part of what makes them endearing at least to me anyway. The way they go about their insecurities is unreasonable which makes for cute comedic moments when people call them out on it. It’s the absurdity in their reactions that make it cute or funny. It’s why the female smacking the MC across the room is a recurring gag among the archetype. It’s such an absurd reaction to a harmless compliment that it’s supposed to be funny. I’m kind of hardpressed to call Felix a tsundere because he’s too blunt to be one. Tsunderes are normally characterized by being the opposite of blunt. The point of a tsundere is that they hide their true feelings(i.e the dere) behind that outer tsun tsun shell. A tsundere being blunt is kind of missing the point cause what creates those tsun to dere transition moments is when those true feelings come out and the barriers come down. You can’t have that when the character is already being honest overtly so.

[Etrurian emperor]

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The point of a tsundere is that they hide their true feelings(i.e the dere) behind that outer tsun tsun shell. A tsundere being blunt is kind of missing the point cause what creates those tsun to dere transition moments is when those true feelings come out and the barriers come down. You can’t have that when the character is already being honest overtly so.

I think you're overlooking the point that bluntness in itself can be a shell to hide ones feelings. Bluntness can be an important aspect of that barrier. Even more textbook examples of tsunderes such as Takumi and Severa can be quite blunt at times. 

[Ottservia]

14 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think you're overlooking the point that bluntness in itself can be a shell to hide ones feelings. Bluntness can be an important aspect of that barrier. Even more textbook examples of tsunderes such as Takumi and Severa can be quite blunt at times. 

Severa’s bluntness is more so due to poor localization on the part of 8-4. Her abrasiveness is more clearly portrayed as a front in the Japanese version. Regardless, I’m not denying that it can’t be an aspect. I’m just saying there comes a point where the character is too blunt to be a tsundere. Felix comes off more as an edgy swordsman who speaks more through his actions rather than tsundere. Cause Felix doesn’t have a dere side like Takumi. He simply has his own way of showing that he cares and wants to keep up a tough image. For Felix, it’s not so much a front as it is him simply being standoff-ish. He’s more comparable to characters like Lon’qu, Navarre, and Saizo in that regard rather than Takumi or Severa who have clear tsun and dere “modes” for lack of a better term.

[Sil/phire]

i have watched so much anime at this point i either detest all tropes and find them completely obnoxious or i accept them all as inescapable parts probably necessary for a story to work, i cant make up my mind about which one im on. some i cant stand include harems, the grand "kids save the world" story, and isekai.

[Clear World]

Haha. I'll tell you a story trope I hate... well. I actually don't hate this story trope but how the story trope is often kneecapped by the story itself.

Trope: It will be like, Camus is a morally grey character because he isn't really evil but if fighting for the wrong side for loyalty and pride. This is so sad and stuff. This conflict really has grey areas in it, right?

Late Game Story Reveal: Nah. There's this bad big who is blatantly evil and if you get rid of that, all the conflict would've basically resolves itself because grey area really doesn't exist. If it looks like its grey, it's only because the bad guy(s) are forcing the good people into doing the bad stuff.

 

Oh wait. Another one.

The antagonist has a valid point/idea, but the creator wants the point/idea to be wrong, so they make them an unlikable jerk.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Clear World

[henrymidfields]

On 3/19/2021 at 1:00 PM, Clear World said:

Haha. I'll tell you a story trope I hate... well. I actually don't hate this story trope but how the story trope is often kneecapped by the story itself.

Trope: It will be like, Camus is a morally grey character because he isn't really evil but if fighting for the wrong side for loyalty and pride. This is so sad and stuff. This conflict really has grey areas in it, right?

Unfortunately, this isn't exactly unrealistic. Otherwise Erwin Rommel, and to a lesser extent Isoroku Yamamoto (if we consider his big misgivings about expanding the war to rope the United States into) would not exist as they are portrayed today... I'm sure there are a lot of other examples from history where people may see huge issues with their own contry's involvement into whatever war they are fighting, but decides to serve regardless, and try to make the best out of a bad situation...

As for Tsunderes, the only one that I really liked was Yukari from Persona 3, and that's because it is not a straight example. Yukari's tsundere personality is considered to be a bad thing that damages her relationship with other, and it's also brought up as a product of having to be suspicious of other people who may or may not stigmatise Yukari due to what her dad was involved in.

As for a trope that definitely overstayed it's welcome, on at least one game franchise, it's Damsel in Distress. Especially when that particular damsel (actually, replace "damsel" with "idiot") turned out to fight back just fine in Smash Bros.

As for one that overstayed its welcome in Fire Emblem, well "Never a Self Made Woman" is one. Why Micaiah and Celica weren't given their own stories is beyond me when gamers in general (*)  seemed to have little to no issues with Edelgard in Three Houses having her own way in her own story, or at least not enough to affect game sales and character polls. Heck, 3H also had a non-Caucasian lord/hero too, and the gamers didn't mind enough to negatively affect sales on that front either; it shows how Nintendo can sometimes be needlessly conservative in their design decisions.
(*) I'm not talking about FE fans here, because let's face it, in many ways we generally scrutinise things more of the FE games compared to the average FE gamer!

Edited April 2, 2021 by henrymidfields

[Ottservia]

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

As for Tsunderes, the only one that I really liked was Yukari from Persona 3, and that's because it is not a straight example. Yukari's tsundere personality is considered to be a bad thing that damages her relationship with other, and it's also brought up as a product of having to be suspicious of other people who may or may not stigmatise Yukari due to what her dad was involved in.

That’s kind of like every tsundere ever though.  Or at the very least the well written ones. That’s kind of how you play the archetype straight. The only time a tsundere’s tsun side isn’t treated as a flaw is when the character is a highly fetishized caricature used for harem bait

[Jotari]

One trope that you might have seen me ranting about if you're on Serenes enough is the idea of the special ancestor in any time frame above two or three hundred years. Because reality just does not work that way. If someone in the present time of the story is related to someone from a few centuries prior, then they are not the only one. There's going to be thousands upon thousands of people related to that ancestor, because the number of descendants a person produces is logarithmic. It doubles with every generation. And a single ancestor is only going to make up a tiny portion of a given person's ancestry. Characters in universe tracing their lineage and all I don't have an issue with, it's just when the story itself promotes it as some kind of magically significant feature of a character. And even just factoring in an acceptable break from reality, I just don't like it on a moral level. We're all equals, we're not defined by our ancestry, so I don't see any strong narrative purpose for a story to inadvertently push that we are beyond the handful of generations that actually do directly influence us.

[Venger_06]

The ending of Shingeki no Kyojin made me hate so many things that I have a hard time choosing one...

Edited April 7, 2021 by Maof06

[vanguard333]

On 4/2/2021 at 5:44 AM, Jotari said:

One trope that you might have seen me ranting about if you're on Serenes enough is the idea of the special ancestor in any time frame above two or three hundred years. Because reality just does not work that way. If someone in the present time of the story is related to someone from a few centuries prior, then they are not the only one. There's going to be thousands upon thousands of people related to that ancestor, because the number of descendants a person produces is logarithmic. It doubles with every generation. And a single ancestor is only going to make up a tiny portion of a given person's ancestry. Characters in universe tracing their lineage and all I don't have an issue with, it's just when the story itself promotes it as some kind of magically significant feature of a character. And even just factoring in an acceptable break from reality, I just don't like it on a moral level. We're all equals, we're not defined by our ancestry, so I don't see any strong narrative purpose for a story to inadvertently push that we are beyond the handful of generations that actually do directly influence us.

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion then of a special ancestor of more than 2 or 3 hundred years that's the ancestor of a special clan, rather than just a particular special descendant? For example, the different clans in Naruto that trace their ancestry back to the Sage of Six Paths (such as the Uzumaki Clan and the Uchiha Clan)? 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Out of curiosity, what's your opinion then of a special ancestor of more than 2 or 3 hundred years that's the ancestor of a special clan, rather than just a particular special descendant? For example, the different clans in Naruto that trace their ancestry back to the Sage of Six Paths (such as the Uzumaki Clan and the Uchiha Clan)? 

An entire clan makes a lot more sense since the people in an isolated area are going to share more with the given ancestor via inbreeding (ie you have 256 great great great great great great grandfathers, in an isolated area all of them all 256 ancestors are the same guy versus only one of those 256 people being that guy in a larger population).

[NinjaMonkey]

Further to my earlier answer:  The heroes defeating the villain with the power of friendship is complete and absolute bollocks. Especially when those friends are just average joes with no power or influence.

Edited April 9, 2021 by NinjaMonkey