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What story/character tropes do you dislike or hate?

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15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think people are speaking over each other here because you're conflating the in universe concept of a power level with the general principle of power scaling.

...But that's kinda the point. Scouter levels aren't the only power level meter. Power Level is generally an ambiguous term used in the franchise that describes the concept of physical ability. I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but we always use the term "power level" here to refer to power scaling. Guidebooks use the term power level in this sense, even when there was no Scouter involved. Even some English communities that I frequented use the term like that.

It's like taking a temperature. Celsius and Fahrenheit are different scales, but the two can measure correctly.

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43 minutes ago, Maof06 said:

...But that's kinda the point. Scouter levels aren't the only power level meter. Power Level is generally an ambiguous term used in the franchise that describes the concept of physical ability. I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but we always use the term "power level" here to refer to power scaling. Guidebooks use the term power level in this sense, even when there was no Scouter involved. Even some English communities that I frequented use the term like that.

It's like taking a temperature. Celsius and Fahrenheit are different scales, but the two can measure correctly.

Well yes and no. I think there is a difference between saying characters are relatively stronger than other characters and assigning an actual number to that value as if its quantifiable and mathematical. Especially when the story goes out of its way to demonstrate that its not, while gulfs exists between characters, fights themselves contain varying degrees of power being on display at any given time.

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2 hours ago, Maof06 said:

Because their difference in power decided the outcome of the battle.

No, not only the villains cares about power levels. Every time a character says "X person is stronger than me!" its about power levels.

That's because earthlings can camouflage their Ki. When they're going to fight, they power up back. Just because they hide they presence doesn't mean that power levels doesn't matter.

Power levels permeated Dragon Ball from start to finish, even before they were properly introduced (Classic Dragon Ball) until it became muddied (Majin Buu Saga). Goku, when fighting Tien in the WT (before the concept was introduced) had a power level. Goku, when fighting Buu at the end of Z, also has a power level, although it is not stated the exact amount. That's the reason why Goku can fight Buu evenly: SS3 Goku has a similar power level to Buu's. Vegeta, for example, doesn't have, that's why when they fight he got his ass handed to Buu.

Krillin is weak. That doesn't mean he is a bad character. There is nothing said in that thread that came close to stating that a character was bad because he was weak.

You completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. Like Jotari said you confusing power scaling with what Power levels are supposed to represent within the confines of the narrative. The only characters in dragonball who care at all about their power level are villains. They flaunt their power level. They view their power level as something to be feared. The heroes aren’t like that. They don’t flaunt their power levels. To them power levels are simply just a number that doesn’t reflect the quality of who they are as people. To the villains power levels are everything. It defines them. You notice that when Vegeta becomes a good guy he stops giving a shit about power levels and starts to care more about protecting his new family which is the whole point of his character arc. 
 

You’re not supposed to take Power levels as this hard mathematical rule. That is how the villains view power levels and you’re not supposed to agree with the villains that’s why they’re villains. The point of power levels as a narrative tool is to show how little they actually matter because they don’t reflect who a person truly is. Like even in older manga like kinnikuman you see this trope where characters with supposedly high power levels are beaten by characters with extremely low power levels because the point is that power levels aren’t everything and you shouldn’t let yourself be defined by them.

Edited by Ottservia

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well yes and no. I think there is a difference between saying characters are relatively stronger than other characters and assigning an actual number to that value as if its quantifiable and mathematical. Especially when the story goes out of its way to demonstrate that its not, while gulfs exists between characters, fights themselves contain varying degrees of power being on display at any given time.

Well, the manga and the guides used mathematical values to quantify. While the numbers should not be treated as absolute, the importance of this concrete data is to compare the power between two combatants relatively. For example, when Freeza becomes his second form, he says that his power is approximately 1 million. We then use this data to compare it to other Z warriors, and we see that he is much stronger than them.

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. Like Jotari said you confusing power scaling with what Power levels are supposed to represent within the confines of the narrative. The only characters in dragonball who care at all about their power level are villains. They flaunt their power level. They view their power level as something to be feared. The heroes aren’t like that. They don’t flaunt their power levels. To them power levels are simply just a number that doesn’t reflect the quality of who they are as people. To the villains power levels are everything. It defines them. You notice that when Vegeta becomes a good guy he stops giving a shit about power levels and starts to care more about protecting his new family which is the whole point of his character arc. 
 

You’re not supposed to take Power levels as this hard mathematical rule. That is how the villains view power levels and you’re not supposed to agree with the villains that’s why they’re villains. The point of power levels as a narrative tool is to show how little they actually matter because they don’t reflect who a person truly is. Like even in older manga like kinnikuman you see this trope where characters with supposedly high power levels are beaten by characters with extremely low power levels because the point is that power levels aren’t everything and you shouldn’t let yourself be defined by them.

Power levels are the relative measure of a warrior's battle power. They're DBZ power scaling. This is a narrative tool of the work to say more or less how strong someone is. They do not represent anything deep in "the confines of the narrative". You are making up stuff to justify your vision. Here's Word of God about the origin of power levels. Toriyama just created it and removed for simplicity's sake. Again, there's no deeper meaning. If you can't provide a source in the manga or through the author, its only headcanon.

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

You notice that when Vegeta becomes a good guy he stops giving a shit about power levels and starts to care more about protecting his new family which is the whole point of his character arc. 

Vegeta stopped caring about the exact numbers on the Scouter at the start of the Namek Saga, while he's still clearly the bad guy. He becomes a father when he's an antihero at best. Even when he settles down he never stopped caring about power, about becoming stronger and surpassing Goku. This is true to his character to this day.

11 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Like even in older manga like kinnikuman you see this trope where characters with supposedly high power levels are beaten by characters with extremely low power levels because the point is that power levels aren’t everything and you shouldn’t let yourself be defined by them.

Dragon Ball is not like kinnikuman. There is no deeper meaning about power levels. It is not because a character is good that he will win. Farmer with a shotgun will never defeat Raditz. And again, it's not because of the thematic importance "in the confines of the narrative". There's no deeper meaning, it is just a rule of that universe.

Edited by Maof06

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On 4/11/2021 at 5:33 AM, Maof06 said:

Farmer with a shotgun will never defeat Raditz.

That's not entirely true actually. Super has Goku get shot in the back by one of Frieza's goons who's otherwise depicted as a non combatant. And it works too. Goku's out for the count because of it. 

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55 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's not entirely true actually. Super has Goku get shot in the back by one of Frieza's goons who's otherwise depicted as a non combatant. And it works too. Goku's out for the count because of it. 

That happened because Goku lowered his guard and supressed his Ki. By the time Raditz is introduced, only earthlings can supress their Ki, so Raditz couldn't be killed by the farmer even if he wanted.

Anyway, I think I should rephrase my quote there at the beginning. When I said that x wouldn't be able to defeat y, I meant in a fair fight. Ambushing your opponents when they are off guard does not prove that you are stronger than your opponent. It's basically the "Did Vegeta beat Goku in the Buu saga?" question again.

P.s. : He didn't.

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Someone being overly dense when it comes to someone having feelings towards them gets kinda old, i guess. more nitpicky than it actually bothering me, though.

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13 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Someone being overly dense when it comes to someone having feelings towards them gets kinda old, i guess. more nitpicky than it actually bothering me, though.

I can definitely understand and agree with this. That said, I also don't like when all the other characters act like the person somehow should've been figured it out already even though the person with the crush never said anything. It's really weird how the more poorly-written examples of this can somehow make me simultaneously think both, "Notice it already!" and "Stop blaming them for not noticing when the person has yet to confess!" without any cognitive dissonance on my part.

Basically, I would really like it if there were more stories where the characters are actually open and honest about their feelings for each other. Less, "Why are you blushing?" and more of this:

 

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1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I can definitely understand and agree with this. That said, I also don't like when all the other characters act like the person somehow should've been figured it out already even though the person with the crush never said anything. It's really weird how the more poorly-written examples of this can somehow make me simultaneously think both, "Notice it already!" and "Stop blaming them for not noticing when the person has yet to confess!" without any cognitive dissonance on my part.

 

Said much better than me but yeah, something like that! Xd

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4 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Said much better than me but yeah, something like that! Xd

Thanks. What did you think of the video? It's from one of only two shows I've seen this year where two characters that like each other actually communicate, and the other show was a rom-com where the premise is that they get married midway through episode 1 (and that was the only reason I decided to even try the show: that it looked like it was actually going to be creative for once, which fortunately turned out to be the case).

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