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Ashe is good; Change my mind

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27 minutes ago, Barren said:

I agree. If I had to pick a sniper candidate out of the blue lions house I would choose Felix since his growths are better by comparison. He has a strength growth of 55% (60 if sniper), his dex growth greatly benefits from jumping up from 45% to 65% (which is pretty good), his speed would remain at 55% which is fine and his luck growth would go up from 40% to 50%. Basically he can do what Ashe can do but far better. Not to mention his lone wolf ability allowing him to gain an additional attack +5 is nice (I know that later on there are battalions that out performs this ability, but early on it's fine), and his crest of Fraldarius allowing him to do extra damage is really good. 

I disagree here.  I just did a run with Felix as a Sniper and I was really unimpressive compared to some of the other builds I've tried him as.  55% speed growth, but on Maddening it just isn't enough to get doubles consistently, which makes his entire speed growth irrelevant.  He turns into a Hunter's Volley spammer just like most other Snipers.  He has nice strength, which may put him a bit ahead of some other Sniper options, but I think this would be wasting a unit that can be much better served in another class (e.g. Assassin).

The most impressive archer I've managed to build is Leonie, but again I feel she's better served elsewhere (she's a dynamite Falcon Knight).  I think Sniper is really only good for units that don't have great other options (e.g. Shamir).

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2 hours ago, Cysx said:

Worth noting, that doesn't work on combat arts.

Ahh good to note. At least regular attacks still works with it in case Hunter's Volley isn't needed for some reason. His crest is also very good with gauntlets so I know people also tend to make him a grappler or war master

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2 hours ago, SumG said:

I disagree here.  I just did a run with Felix as a Sniper and I was really unimpressive compared to some of the other builds I've tried him as.  55% speed growth, but on Maddening it just isn't enough to get doubles consistently, which makes his entire speed growth irrelevant.  He turns into a Hunter's Volley spammer just like most other Snipers.  He has nice strength, which may put him a bit ahead of some other Sniper options, but I think this would be wasting a unit that can be much better served in another class (e.g. Assassin).

The most impressive archer I've managed to build is Leonie, but again I feel she's better served elsewhere (she's a dynamite Falcon Knight).  I think Sniper is really only good for units that don't have great other options (e.g. Shamir).

Was his stats not good because of RNG or was it still good for maddening but not quite the damage out that you were looking for? I did try him out as a Assassin and I did like it since he'll be fast as hell and his 55% strength growth would still help him hit hard as he goes

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2 hours ago, SumG said:

I think Sniper is really only good for units that don't have great other options (e.g. Shamir).

I've found Shamir to be a very good Falcon Knight (who isn't though). She is also surprisingly decent as an Assassin. Don't get me wrong, Sniper is definitely up there for her, but there's at least some competition for her endgame classes.

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1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I've found Shamir to be a very good Falcon Knight (who isn't though). She is also surprisingly decent as an Assassin. Don't get me wrong, Sniper is definitely up there for her, but there's at least some competition for her endgame classes.

I never tried Falcon Knight Shamir. How was much damage was she doing with Lance Jab? Does Darting Blow increase the damage done with it? Or does it just affect attack speed for regular attacks? I know that Lance Jab does more damage based off your speed as well as Death Blow of course

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5 hours ago, Cysx said:

I'm inclined to disagree. Unless recruited past the point where getting Death blow is reasonable(which shouldn't really happen, he's universally an easy recruit), I'd say Ignatz is still better even on Blue Lions. Assuming you're going for Sniper on both, in any case.

Mm. I feel like you have to get Ignatz quicker than that for him to win, since otherwise Ashe picks up a repositioning skill and/or a stat+2 along with HP+5 and he just looks clearly better to me. And if you throw Ignatz back into a beginner class, not only is he in a weaker class but Ashe will use the corresponding time to pick up Hit+20. But yeah, if you get Ignatz in chapter 4, say, I see where you're coming from, and that's possible.

(Here is where I admit I find neither even remotely tempting on a route which is not their own, so divebombing for an Ignatz recruit strikes me as questionable unless you like him. Just grab Shamir if you want a sniper.)

 

5 hours ago, SumG said:

I disagree here.  I just did a run with Felix as a Sniper and I was really unimpressive compared to some of the other builds I've tried him as.  55% speed growth, but on Maddening it just isn't enough to get doubles consistently, which makes his entire speed growth irrelevant.  He turns into a Hunter's Volley spammer just like most other Snipers.  He has nice strength, which may put him a bit ahead of some other Sniper options, but I think this would be wasting a unit that can be much better served in another class (e.g. Assassin).

Felix has 2+20% extra strength on Ashe and Ignatz. By Level 31 that means he'll do 16 extra damage with Hunter's Volley. He vastly outperforms Ashe and Ignatz even if you aren't able to get him to double. If you do get him more speed, he can go Bow Knight (with its +3 mod dismounted) and really tear things in half (Brave Bow kills enemies too fast for him to double). And as mentioned, before Hunter's Volley, he both doubles more often AND when doubling isn't possible, has a +8 dmg combat art, so he's always dealing far more damage.

Now if you think Assassin is better for him still (I personally don't), that's fair. And it's also fair to bring up, as you did, that Sniper is better at saving unimpressive characters than many other classes, especially ones with lower speed. Thinking on it, I should try Sniper Raphael one day; I know he's weak in bows but it certainly fits his stat build well, and Snipers don't need many other skills to function well (just authority and a touch of axe, really).

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6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mm. I feel like you have to get Ignatz quicker than that for him to win, since otherwise Ashe picks up a repositioning skill and/or a stat+2 along with HP+5 and he just looks clearly better to me. And if you throw Ignatz back into a beginner class, not only is he in a weaker class but Ashe will use the corresponding time to pick up Hit+20. But yeah, if you get Ignatz in chapter 4, say, I see where you're coming from, and that's possible.

Ashe is probably not keeping HP+5 equipped for the whole game though, and a +2 skill isn't enough to compensate for the difference in their P.skills and the fact that Ignatz has an authority boon, imo. As for a repo, well the better it is, the worst the +2 skill, so it evens out to an extent. Admittedly, on Annette route there is less of a use for rally speed, though.
But yeah, I'd say Ignatz probably becomes worse if recruited post ch 7. Around that time.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(Here is where I admit I find neither even remotely tempting on a route which is not their own, so divebombing for an Ignatz recruit strikes me as questionable unless you like him. Just grab Shamir if you want a sniper.)

That's fair, even Ignatz isn't a high priority recruit exactly. Basically it's just a way to demonstrate that they are very much not equals. Frankly on the bench meter, Ignatz is probably only 3rd of his house(behind Raph and arguably Lorenz), while Ashe is probably first of his.

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7 hours ago, Barren said:

How was much damage was she doing with Lance Jab? Does Darting Blow increase the damage done with it?

I remember Lance Jab being solidly powerful, but not ridiculously so. Shamir had solid Spd (was around 38 Spd at CF Ch.18 with a couple of Speedwings) and the damage boost was sometimes the difference between chip and kill (though not normally OHKOs, and a Brave Bow was certainly more useful overall).

I actually don't know if any of the Blow skills (bar Death/Fiendish) can actually increase CA Mt, and would be interested in finding out. My suspicion is no in this case (Darting Blow boosts AS, not the literal Spd stat, and Lance Jab scales off Spd, not AS) but I don't know for sure, I didn't check those numbers. And I also don't know if Armored/Warding Blow help Armored Strike/Soulblade either.

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2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I remember Lance Jab being solidly powerful, but not ridiculously so. Shamir had solid Spd (was around 38 Spd at CF Ch.18 with a couple of Speedwings) and the damage boost was sometimes the difference between chip and kill (though not normally OHKOs, and a Brave Bow was certainly more useful overall).

I actually don't know if any of the Blow skills (bar Death/Fiendish) can actually increase CA Mt, and would be interested in finding out. My suspicion is no in this case (Darting Blow boosts AS, not the literal Spd stat, and Lance Jab scales off Spd, not AS) but I don't know for sure, I didn't check those numbers. And I also don't know if Armored/Warding Blow help Armored Strike/Soulblade either.

Hmm, I suppose that would be worth testing at some point. 

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14 hours ago, Barren said:

Was his stats not good because of RNG or was it still good for maddening but not quite the damage out that you were looking for? I did try him out as a Assassin and I did like it since he'll be fast as hell and his 55% strength growth would still help him hit hard as he goes

Assassin Felix is fine as a damage dealer on maddening.  He can double up most units aside from enemy assassins and swordmasters, he still has above average strength, his crest will chip in some bonus damage fairly regularly (with two chances to proc most combats due to his speed), and he'll be about as evasive as a unit can be without being in a flying class with Alert Stance.  He does have some disadvantages compared to other physical classes due to being footlocked and limited to swords, but it's manageable.

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On 8/11/2020 at 9:09 AM, Cysx said:

Ashe is extremely straightforward to build towards HV Sniper(which is likely his strongest build on maddening), I'll give him that. And while the above is true, when you introduce brave effects alongside crit builds, suddenly that 70% chance becomes a 91% chance to get at least one crit. Also Deadeye is decent utility(can't believe I'm defending it now when I used to think it was very overrated, my how the tables have turned).

Until then it's mostly chip town for him, though, and people are right; Dex is a minor stat in 3H. It's unusual for FE(well, it rarely is a top end stat, but typically it's at least useful), but that's just the way things are this time.

Basically it's tough to think of one thing Ashe does that Ignatz doesn't do better. He has a marginally easier road to Death Blow, and Deadeye..., that's pretty much all I can think of. And on the other hand, Ignatz gets a lot of useful tools, between better accuracy, better utility combat arts, his authority proficiency, and rally speed; they just didn't give enough to Ashe, even his personal skill could be neat if the economy wasn't so thoroughly broken in 3H. I'd argue 300 per chest isn't actually that cheap(especially since those do have a tendency to have nothing interesting in them), but who cares when you have almost infinite money the moment the shop with the lures is unlocked?

I dont really think ashe should be compared to ignatz. Their growths may be similar, but their combat arts and boons in weapons are different, leading them perform better in different roles. I personally believe ignatz to be a perfect fit for assassin, whilst ashe is better off in warrior or wyverns. Ashe can do the same roles as ignatz, but would be outperformed in them (sword, bow and authority boon vs axe, bow, lance).

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6 hours ago, Cysx said:

Ashe is probably not keeping HP+5 equipped for the whole game though, and a +2 skill isn't enough to compensate for the difference in their P.skills and the fact that Ignatz has an authority boon, imo. As for a repo, well the better it is, the worst the +2 skill, so it evens out to an extent. Admittedly, on Annette route there is less of a use for rally speed, though.
But yeah, I'd say Ignatz probably becomes worse if recruited post ch 7. Around that time.

Being recruited around chapter 7 (for example) does a lot to blunt that authority boon, because you miss out on combat authority exp and instruction. Assuming Ashe doesn't get a battalion in Chapter 2, he'll have one for chapter 3, 4, 5, and 6, and let's say two optional fights as well (e.g. Dedue's paralogue and the merchant quest battle). If Ashe averages 7-8 combats in each of those maps (this is high for the quest battle, low for chp 5), that's around 90-100 authority exp. Then Ashe has 12 extra weeks of instruction, if we tutor him in 8 of those and assuming some mix of statue bonus/professor expertise so the average base boost is 6 that's an extra ~300 exp Ignatz isn't getting. Ashe also has an axe boon, not as important as authority of course if they're training as archers but worth noting. Meanwhile once Ignatz joins the boon means he'll get +4 auth experience per week of passive tutoring, +1 per combat, and around +13 or so (RNG dependent) per instruction in authority. By the time he catches up (probably somewhere around ~8 chapters at a casual estimate), both will certainly have reached the B which is required for most major foot battalions, and could be close to A if that's a priority for you.

This is less about Ashe vs Ignatz and more about the significance of joining earlier in this game, which I think is often underappreciated.

To return to the rest of what you said: no argument that Ignatz's personal skill is better, but I may be a bit less impressed by it than you are? It's good but there are definitely personal skills I value more. Although it's definitely worth pointing out that in general, there's a soft accuracy boost for in house characters, because they'll have more supports; this is particularly notable with gambits.

 

6 hours ago, Cysx said:

That's fair, even Ignatz isn't a high priority recruit exactly. Basically it's just a way to demonstrate that they are very much not equals. Frankly on the bench meter, Ignatz is probably only 3rd of his house(behind Raph and arguably Lorenz), while Ashe is probably first of his.

Yep, I can agree with every word here. I don't think the gap is dramatic but I'm convinced that Ignatz is better, at least if they're both going for archer anyway. (Ashe does dramatically better if both go for wyvern, although BL's problems with flying battalions may eat into this advantage in practice.)

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I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post. I believe ashe is the best fit for the vantage wrath build. He has the tied second highest dexterity in the game, beaten only by claude and lysithea. Claude is best in barbarossa and who would put lysithea in warrior?.

The people tied with ashe: shamir, leonie and bernadetta.

Bernadetta is better suited in other roles, and Shamir is a better assassin or falcon knight. Leonie also better off in other roles. Of all the high dexterity units, ashe is the best user of vantage wrath builds due to the most optimised crit rate.

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34 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post. I believe ashe is the best fit for the vantage wrath build. He has the tied second highest dexterity in the game, beaten only by claude and lysithea. Claude is best in barbarossa and who would put lysithea in warrior?.

The people tied with ashe: shamir, leonie and bernadetta.

Bernadetta is better suited in other roles, and Shamir is a better assassin or falcon knight. Leonie also better off in other roles. Of all the high dexterity units, ashe is the best user of vantage wrath builds due to the most optimised crit rate.

Unfortunately for Ashe, not only is Vantage/Wrath not that good, he's outclassed at it by Dimitri, who gets the Battalion versions of both, which are much safer due to not needing half health or less.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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37 minutes ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post. I believe ashe is the best fit for the vantage wrath build. He has the tied second highest dexterity in the game, beaten only by claude and lysithea. Claude is best in barbarossa and who would put lysithea in warrior?.

The people tied with ashe: shamir, leonie and bernadetta.

Bernadetta is better suited in other roles, and Shamir is a better assassin or falcon knight. Leonie also better off in other roles. Of all the high dexterity units, ashe is the best user of vantage wrath builds due to the most optimised crit rate.

Is Ashe even killing, though? Maddening has a lot of high-defense enemies that could probably take a crit from Ashe, given his lackluster strength stat. He could wield an armor-effective weapon like the Hammer, I suppose, but then he's nerfing his crit rate. If he doesn't kill, he's pretty much toast.

Also, mastering Mercenary and Warrior sound like serious chores, when those classes do little for him in the short term. Wouldn't he be more useful in a high-mobility class, like Wyvern Rider or Paladin? Or with extra attacking range, as a Sniper? I get that Wrath/Vantage could work on Ashe, but it hardly seems optimal.

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16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is Ashe even killing, though? Maddening has a lot of high-defense enemies that could probably take a crit from Ashe, given his lackluster strength stat. He could wield an armor-effective weapon like the Hammer, I suppose, but then he's nerfing his crit rate. If he doesn't kill, he's pretty much toast.

Also, mastering Mercenary and Warrior sound like serious chores, when those classes do little for him in the short term. Wouldn't he be more useful in a high-mobility class, like Wyvern Rider or Paladin? Or with extra attacking range, as a Sniper? I get that Wrath/Vantage could work on Ashe, but it hardly seems optimal.

And even if he could kill, the enemy can just bypass that with a gambit, which, due to his low charm, will likely connect, and leave him open for something else to kill him (if it didn't kill him).

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The game gives you enough crit resources to allow pretty much everyone to get to very high Crit rates. Ashe's Dex will at most mean that he uses one less resource than another Vantage/Wrath build would (like a Crit ring, or a battalion with a slightly lower Crit boost), and his boons will help him get to Warrior, sure. But neither of those are significant enough, unique enough or strong enough to claim that Ashe is the 'best' user of this build.

For example, Alois arrives in the Warrior class automatically, at a time when Ashe might not have reached Warrior yet, and quite close proficiency-wise to the certification for War Master (which gives a straight +20 Crit boost to all attacks, which Ashe won't catch up to by relying on Dex growths). With fairly little relative effort he'll get higher Crit than Ashe, is probably more usable in battle/as a Warrior, and Vantage isn't that hard for him to pick up either. Alois isn't even that great a unit - my point is just that you have to do a lot more to show Ashe really is the best at something.

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6 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post. I believe ashe is the best fit for the vantage wrath build. He has the tied second highest dexterity in the game, beaten only by claude and lysithea. Claude is best in barbarossa and who would put lysithea in warrior?.

The people tied with ashe: shamir, leonie and bernadetta.

Bernadetta is better suited in other roles, and Shamir is a better assassin or falcon knight. Leonie also better off in other roles. Of all the high dexterity units, ashe is the best user of vantage wrath builds due to the most optimised crit rate.

Even going off the argument that Dex is the best stat for Vantage/Wrath (which I disagree with), you forgot about Cyril- with aptitude his Dex growth is 60%. He has higher strength AND luck than Ashe, so he does more damage and has an even higher crit rate. He also has access to combat arts like Vengeance and Point Blank Volley, which can be used to mop up a troublesome enemy (like if they have a gambit) on player phase and put him in the position to vantage sweep anybody else. And I’d argue Bernadetta is even better for this- her stats are the same as Ashe, with the exception of lower luck, but she also has the advantage of Persecution Complex and Vengeance so she can be dominant on both phases. Her biggest weakness is the fact that she’ll need to get the battalion version of wrath instead, to avoid her axe bane, so managing both endurance and health may be troublesome- annoying, but possible.

Anyway, this is just to say that Ashe definitely has stiff competition for the vantage wrath niche, and that’s only taking into account the high Dex characters. The high strength ones are arguably even better. 
 

That said, I do like using Ashe, but he simply doesn’t have anything to set him apart from other characters. People calling him bad are basically saying he’s bad compared to the rest of the cast- in a vacuum he’d be decent, but with everybody around him he struggles very much to outshine anybody.

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17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Being recruited around chapter 7 (for example) does a lot to blunt that authority boon, because you miss out on combat authority exp and instruction. Assuming Ashe doesn't get a battalion in Chapter 2, he'll have one for chapter 3, 4, 5, and 6, and let's say two optional fights as well (e.g. Dedue's paralogue and the merchant quest battle). If Ashe averages 7-8 combats in each of those maps (this is high for the quest battle, low for chp 5), that's around 90-100 authority exp. Then Ashe has 12 extra weeks of instruction, if we tutor him in 8 of those and assuming some mix of statue bonus/professor expertise so the average base boost is 6 that's an extra ~300 exp Ignatz isn't getting. Ashe also has an axe boon, not as important as authority of course if they're training as archers but worth noting. Meanwhile once Ignatz joins the boon means he'll get +4 auth experience per week of passive tutoring, +1 per combat, and around +13 or so (RNG dependent) per instruction in authority. By the time he catches up (probably somewhere around ~8 chapters at a casual estimate), both will certainly have reached the B which is required for most major foot battalions, and could be close to A if that's a priority for you.

Yeah, that's part of the general reason(though I won't pretend that I had the math in my head or anything, it very much was an estimation); ultimately if Ignatz is left with only his P.skill as an advantage and has to play catchup too hard on death blow, Ashe starts to dominate.

17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To return to the rest of what you said: no argument that Ignatz's personal skill is better, but I may be a bit less impressed by it than you are? It's good but there are definitely personal skills I value more. Although it's definitely worth pointing out that in general, there's a soft accuracy boost for in house characters, because they'll have more supports; this is particularly notable with gambits.

Probably best not to make this about Ignatz too much, but I do consider it top 10 in the game myself. Or I did before the dlc characters anyway, I'd have to look at it again. It's extremely useful in the earlygame, and even later on where some builds have enough accuracy, most would certainly appreciate it and for bow using classes specifically, there are some pretty obvious advantages(there's even room for making use of +40 hit). This also goes for brave axe wyvern builds, but then again, yeah, neutral axes/lances, and weak flight, that's too much work to overcome. I guess the question is if Ashe is better on a wyvern or as a sniper. I think I've made it clear that it's sniper afaic, but that's definitely debatable.

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is Ashe even killing, though? Maddening has a lot of high-defense enemies that could probably take a crit from Ashe, given his lackluster strength stat. He could wield an armor-effective weapon like the Hammer, I suppose, but then he's nerfing his crit rate. If he doesn't kill, he's pretty much toast.

Well the bigger thing imo is, a few dex points do not a build make. His advantage is completely negligible compared to what others have.

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21 hours ago, SumG said:

Assassin Felix is fine as a damage dealer on maddening.  He can double up most units aside from enemy assassins and swordmasters, he still has above average strength, his crest will chip in some bonus damage fairly regularly (with two chances to proc most combats due to his speed), and he'll be about as evasive as a unit can be without being in a flying class with Alert Stance.  He does have some disadvantages compared to other physical classes due to being footlocked and limited to swords, but it's manageable.

True. Being footlocked isn't always a good thing but I do agree that 6 move isn't too bad and being able to ignore terrain penalty can be more helpful than people think. I always like to keep him as a sword/bow attacking unit as opposed to just sword myself so he has ranged options. Losing Bowfaire sucks but I guess there are worse things for him to lose.

 

18 hours ago, ThatsEnoughBackTalk said:

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this post. I believe ashe is the best fit for the vantage wrath build. He has the tied second highest dexterity in the game, beaten only by claude and lysithea. Claude is best in barbarossa and who would put lysithea in warrior?.

The people tied with ashe: shamir, leonie and bernadetta.

Bernadetta is better suited in other roles, and Shamir is a better assassin or falcon knight. Leonie also better off in other roles. Of all the high dexterity units, ashe is the best user of vantage wrath builds due to the most optimised crit rate.

Bernadetta can pull off the vantage/wrath combo better than Ashe because of Persecution Complex. She doesn't even need to go to Warrior because she also gets Battalion Wrath which does combo with Vantage. Sure she has a weakness in swords but that is still manageable getting to rank D+ at minimum. She can easily go into Bow Knight with a forged Killer's Bow and get Bow Prowess, Bow Crit/Close Counter, Hit +20, Vantage and Battalion Wrath and as long as she has the retribution gambit applied to her, gets hit once or twice with a guard adjutant with her, she will absolutely mop the floor with the entire enemy opposition with this set up. And others have said that Dimitri is the best with that combo but the battalion versions and I completely agree with that. 

I don't think Ashe is a shit character by any means, and I know I'm repeating what others are saying but he really does have some stiff competition. 

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18 hours ago, Anathaco said:

Even going off the argument that Dex is the best stat for Vantage/Wrath (which I disagree with), you forgot about Cyril- with aptitude his Dex growth is 60%. He has higher strength AND luck than Ashe, so he does more damage and has an even higher crit rate. He also has access to combat arts like Vengeance and Point Blank Volley, which can be used to mop up a troublesome enemy (like if they have a gambit) on player phase and put him in the position to vantage sweep anybody else. And I’d argue Bernadetta is even better for this- her stats are the same as Ashe, with the exception of lower luck, but she also has the advantage of Persecution Complex and Vengeance so she can be dominant on both phases. Her biggest weakness is the fact that she’ll need to get the battalion version of wrath instead, to avoid her axe bane, so managing both endurance and health may be troublesome- annoying, but possible.

Anyway, this is just to say that Ashe definitely has stiff competition for the vantage wrath niche, and that’s only taking into account the high Dex characters. The high strength ones are arguably even better. 
 

That said, I do like using Ashe, but he simply doesn’t have anything to set him apart from other characters. People calling him bad are basically saying he’s bad compared to the rest of the cast- in a vacuum he’d be decent, but with everybody around him he struggles very much to outshine anybody.

I completely forgot about cyril. His growths, combat arts, and boons really do just make him better bernadetta

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Here is my take.

Three houses standards, no. He isn't garbage like fe6 wendy, but just not great when almost every other unit is just as good or better.

1. Anything Ashe can do, other units can do better

Wyvern: Petra, Ferdinand, Sylvain, Cyril

Sniper: Ignatz, Felix, Shamir

Bowknight: Leonie, Bernadetta

2. Offers nothing really unique/good compared to other units similar to him.

Bernadetta has vengence, encloser, and dmg boosting personal

Ignatz has rallies, hit+20 as personal, and break shot

Petra has better base stats and growths, can fly as early as lvl 10, base D in flying

Claude has better base stats and growths and encloser

Leonie, Ferdinand, Sylvain have better base stats and growths and a brave effect combat art

3. Has a garbage personal skill, pretty lackluster combat art, bad bases and growths

4. Wrath+vantage combo isn't unique to Ashe and there are units that can pull it off better/easier

Dimitri gets both Battalion wrath+vantage.

Caspar, Bernadetta, Petra etc gets Battalion Wrath at C authority. It allows them to access the combo much earlier than Ashe

Byleth, Felix gets Battalion vantage so instead of mastering vantage as merc, they can get other better skills ex. death blow, hit+20

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Ashe might not be "good", but he is one of the comfiest units to use for lazies like me. Flying lockpick is amazing, and you don't need to clutter your inventory with keys meaning you're free to have access to all the weapons you need without compromises. If you were to collect all chests in the story chapters (no paralogues counted) you'd save around 6300 gold in keys not bought. Money kinda loses its value in the late game since you'll be swimming in it but 6k+ (more if you include paralogues) is quite a decent sum

Also, for one (very) casual friend of mine, Ashe was his MVP for most chapters (NG hard mode Azure Moon, no dlc/online) (including the final one where he soloed the map basically. I could not believe my eyes when I saw him do that, extreme luck with crits and dodges)

 

not every unit needs to one round every enemy to be decent

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1 hour ago, AxelVDP said:

Ashe might not be "good", but he is one of the comfiest units to use for lazies like me. Flying lockpick is amazing, and you don't need to clutter your inventory with keys meaning you're free to have access to all the weapons you need without compromises. If you were to collect all chests in the story chapters (no paralogues counted) you'd save around 6300 gold in keys not bought. Money kinda loses its value in the late game since you'll be swimming in it but 6k+ (more if you include paralogues) is quite a decent sum

Also, for one (very) casual friend of mine, Ashe was his MVP for most chapters (NG hard mode Azure Moon, no dlc/online) (including the final one where he soloed the map basically. I could not believe my eyes when I saw him do that, extreme luck with crits and dodges)

 

not every unit needs to one round every enemy to be decent

Is the argument that Ashe is "good", or that Ashe is "decent"? Because I would agree that Ashe is decent, but only in the sense that basically any unit in Three Houses can be turned into something decent.

I do agree that Ashe is very easy to use - his proficiencies in Axes and Bows give him easy access to the Brigand and Archer classes (and their great mastery skills); his budding talent in Lances helps for getting mobility through any mounted class; and he has a fairly easy road to Wyverndom. Lockpick is convenient, too, for what you said (looting chests while retaining a full inventory). But do note - some Chest Keys are dropped by enemies, and it's not as though you can sell those at-cost. Ergo, Ashe isn't saving you quite as much as it may appear.

Still, Ashe offers very little unique to give him an advantage over his peers. No OP combat arts (like Point-Blank Volley) or combat-enhancing personals (like Persecution Complex). And hus growths lend themselves to a lackluster strength stat. I have to ask, though - what class was your friend using Ashe in, when he gave an MVP-level performance? And should "extreme luck with crits and dodges" really be attributed to how good a unit is, overall?

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5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

some Chest Keys are dropped by enemies, and it's not as though you can sell those at-cost. Ergo, Ashe isn't saving you quite as much as it may appear.
 

My 6300 number accounted for that

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