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I really hope Royal Sword is a constant part of Alm's kit in future games/appearances involving him


Seazas
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Sol, Luna and Astra do exist in Gaiden. Except unlike Shadows of Valentia all three of them are lances. You have a 0.055% chance of getting them when you kill a Mogall. And as far as Gradivus goes, it does seem to be the same weapon as somewhere it's mentioned the white wings brought it back to Archanea. Probably in the Valentia Accord. How it got there, presumably it came with Camus.

How would you expect Echoes to retoractively include the Falchion in Awakening? The Mila tree was not originally in Gaiden, that was something Echoes added to enhance continuity, much like redesigning Rudolf to more closely resemble Whalhart. The game gives literally 0% indication that Alm just left Falchion in Duma's skull. That is pure fanfiction on your part. It is in Alm's position in Chapter 6 and would be a necessary item for him to defeat Grima. You can dismiss Chapter 6 as noncanon, but it more evidence suggesting he keeps it then the literal zero indication you have.

It's not the same weapon though. Alm's Blade is a common weapon found in the dirt in Awakening that anyone can use while the Royal Sword is an actual associated weapon to Alm that only he can use. Plus they have different names. You're mistaken a reference  for an application of continuity. I can have everyone in Awakening use Alm's Blades, does that mean you subscribe to the belief that the Royal Sword was cloned? Why can't Nowi use doublelion if I give her Alm's Blade? 

I'm not saying you can't like the Royal Sword, so you have no reason to argue this point. Though noting that the Royal Blade is a unique weapon does devalue your point that it appeared in Awakening.

Which is why it being left behind makes the most sense. It leaves a glaring plot hole otherwise and there's nothing in Alm's character for him to keep it in a world where Gods are no more. He doesn't mention keeping it nor is there a single quip of script confirming Alm kept it. Act 6 and Alm's position means nothing, the Whitewings are still in your party despite leaving to Archanea and Gradivus is usable too despite the timeline directly confirming it's immediately returned to Archanea post Duma battle. Hell, there's usable characters despite some vanishing, retiring or in Faye's case - never wanting to fight again. Too many contradictions and lack of story to blindly say Act 6 is canon. Also, Falchion isn't necessary to defeat Grima, anyone can defeat him without a special weapon unlike Duma where you absolutely needed Kingsfang. There is no evidence suggesting it was kept. If you have to bring non canon appearances then that's the weakest "indication" to exist. Falchion being left accounts for Awakening continuity way more than Alm keeping it.

Pretty sure Tyrfing is able to be used by anyone in Awakening. It's so much worse in stats in comparison to Genealogy and it no longer grants Miracle when equipped. Royal Sword is easily another weapon that just aged to the point of no longer having its full power and can be used by anyone. No point in writing it off as an easter egg when Alm's game takes place in the same world with Valm literally appearing in the game. Royal Sword resembles Echoes' design, it's definitely the same weapon, just aged... a lot. This is the same game where Falchion had nowhere near it's main power and it took an awakening for the Falchion to be its full strength again. Royal Sword being Alm's Blade has more going for it than not being one. 

Edited by Seazas
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5 hours ago, Seazas said:

Which is why it being left behind makes the most sense. It leaves a glaring plot hole otherwise and there's nothing in Alm's character for him to keep it in a world where Gods are no more. He doesn't mention keeping it nor is there a single quip of script confirming Alm kept it.

 

He doesn't mention throwing it away either. And it's not a plot hole in the slightest for something to not be present two thousand years later. We don't need a character to mention they're keeping the weapon they own to continue believing they keep it. Do you also assume Eirika and Ephraim just tossed away their national treasures after the Demon King was defeated?

5 hours ago, Seazas said:

Act 6 and Alm's position means nothing, the Whitewings are still in your party despite leaving to Archanea and Gradivus is usable too despite the timeline directly confirming it's immediately returned to Archanea post Duma battle. 

 

Well that's just poor logic considering Thabes takes place in Archanea. But even so, you can say an event is canon without saying every unit the game allows you to bring to it is canon (just like for example the Samson Arran choice in the first game, Arran is the canon choice but you're still absolutely free to choose Samson).

5 hours ago, Seazas said:

 Also, Falchion isn't necessary to defeat Grima, anyone can defeat him without a special weapon unlike Duma where you absolutely needed Kingsfang. There is no evidence suggesting it was kept. If you have to bring non canon appearances then that's the weakest "indication" to exist. Falchion being left accounts for Awakening continuity way more than Alm keeping it.

Not in gameplay in Echoes, but not in gameplay in Aakening either. In terms of plot however, Falchion, or Grima's own power, is necessary to defeat Grima.

And I'm not even claiming Thabes is canonical. Just that the existence of Chapter 6 is way more of an indication of Alm keeping Falchion than the literal zero evidence you have. If the writers wanted the game to end with Alm not ever picking up Falchion again then it would have been something that's mentioned somewhere in the ending. Or even at least alluded to. But the game says absolutely nothing on that front and it being missing a full twenty centuries later does nothing to suggest what happens to it in Alm's life time.

5 hours ago, Seazas said:

Pretty sure Tyrfing is able to be used by anyone in Awakening. It's so much worse in stats in comparison to Genealogy and it no longer grants Miracle when equipped. Royal Sword is easily another weapon that just aged to the point of no longer having its full power and can be used by anyone. No point in writing it off as an easter egg when Alm's game takes place in the same world with Valm literally appearing in the game. Royal Sword resembles Echoes' design, it's definitely the same weapon, just aged... a lot. This is the same game where Falchion had nowhere near it's main power and it took an awakening for the Falchion to be its full strength again. Royal Sword being Alm's Blade has more going for it than not being one. 

So how do you explain countless versions of it being randomly found in the dirt? This supposedly royal sword is something people are casually finding lying around on the same level as a literal piece of wood. At least the Jugdral Holy Weapons have an actual story appearance and any second copies have to be obtained from Outrealms.

Edited by Jotari
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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

He doesn't mention throwing it away either. And it's not a plot hole in the slightest for something to not be present two thousand years later. We don't need a character to mention they're keeping the weapon they own to continue believing they keep it. Do you also assume Eirika and Ephraim just tossed away their national treasures after the Demon King was defeated?

Well that's just poor logic considering Thabes takes place in Archanea. But even so, you can say an event is canon without saying every unit the game allows you to bring to it is canon (just like for example the Samson Arran choice in the first game, Arran is the canon choice but you're still absolutely free to choose Samson).

Not in gameplay in Echoes, but not in gameplay in Aakening either. In terms of plot however, Falchion, or Grima's own power, is necessary to defeat Grima.

And I'm not even claiming Thabes is canonical. Just that the existence of Chapter 6 is way more of an indication of Alm keeping Falchion than the literal zero evidence you have. If the writers wanted the game to end with Alm not ever picking up Falchion again then it would have been something that's mentioned somewhere in the ending. Or even at least alluded to. But the game says absolutely nothing on that front and it being missing a full twenty centuries later does nothing to suggest what happens to it in Alm's life time.

So how do you explain countless versions of it being randomly found in the dirt? This supposedly royal sword is something people are casually finding lying around on the same level as a literal piece of wood. At least the Jugdral Holy Weapons have an actual story appearance and any second copies have to be obtained from Outrealms.

I don't care what Ephraim and Eirika did since their weapons have their own identity and they never get another game in continuity with theirs. The falchion being left in Duma would make enough sense to be justifiable. Also, yes it's a plot hole. It never being brought up again especially when we visit to Valm's continent is just ridiculous. It's not like Sacred Stones where Alm's story is left there with nothing in a future game. Awakening straight up has Valentia explored.

Which requires headcanons and a lot of loopholes. And again, nothing is specifically shown with Falchion being required so even if that battle happens... Kingsfang wasn't a weapon that was needed. Using this argument is completely pointless. It's already contradicted by the lack of story and using units that you shouldn't have access too. Especially when in that "Samson and Arran" choice, an answer is given and Mystery makes sure that choice was apart of the story and had an actual outcome.

Except Grima is in his weakest state, it was accounted for in Awakening yet not in Echoes? It's clear Grima is a non canon optional boss battle with the Falchion not being required. And by your logic if the game WANTED to keep Falchion, they would've specifically shown it than a gameplay story segregation that you're hinging on. They weren't going to wipe everyone's parties for this optional non canon fanservice battle lmao. It doesn't indicate anything. If they gave a shit about making this apart of Echoes' story. They would've accounted for continuity and make some units and items unusable. Yet they're not.

It's not that common of an item, yet Alm in the DLC of Awakening also uses Alm's Blade. And the sword Alm uses is one of the two personal weapons he has so Royal Sword being the same blade in Awakening lines up. Guess it was just Awakening being weird if you can get multiple of them. I mean, as you said you can get multiple Tyrfings. 

Edited by Seazas
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Consider Duma's final words, Falchion lodged in his skull:

"Now we shall sleep, and never will you disturb our slumber."

I'd like to think that removing Falchion would then disturb their slumber. Why would you remove the sword you just used to seal away a dragon god? And prior to Alm obtaining it, it was sealed in Mila's skull, rendering her helpless.

As for why Alm has it in Chapter 6? It's just so you can continue to enjoy using it in endgame+. This and all other endgame+ modes in the series are non-canon. The Trial Maps (FE6, FE9) and Creature Campaign (FE8) allow you to use characters, even villains, from the main story who are dead or were otherwise not playable. Thabes and Grima's backstory are just a bonus. Pretty sure Ike returned Ragnell to Begnion at the end of FE9, yet he can still use it in the Trial Maps.

Concerning all the weapon references in Awakening such as "Alm's Blade", first of all I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume Alm's Blade is the Royal Sword. Could we not also make similar presumptions for other weapons? The way I see it Hector's Axe is Wolf Beil, Leif's Blade is Light Sword, and Ephraim's Lance is Reginleif, Finn's Lance is his Brave Lance (w/o the brave effect), Eliwood's Blade and Roy's Blade are Elibean rapiers (w/o cav/armor effectiveness), and Eirika's Blade is a Magvel rapier (the brave effect probably reflects Eirika being a myrmidon-esque Lord like Lyn, but with a horse on promotion). I think the [Noble] Rapier are Archinean or refined Yllisean rapiers. I may be wrong and these may have just been up to our interpretation. And second of all, Awakening was to be the series swan song after all; who freaking cared (or cares) if anyone can wield Jugdral's holy weapons or that any A-rank swordsman can wield Ragnell? I sure don't. It's all in good fun, certainly a fun way to theorectically close out the series.

With this in mind, I quite honestly think you guys might be reading too much into what is, again, simply open to interpretation. I'll reiterate the OP's notion that we aren't saying get rid of the Kingsfang; we just want to make sure the Royal Sword doesn't get left behind.

23 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alm's not the only one who got shafted by legendary weapon use in Heroes. Roy had the basic Roy's blade too even though the sword of seals is super important to him, being tied to his promotion and being the name of his entire game. In fact none of the GBA lords have their legendary weapons present in Awakening. And the only reason Genealogy lords have Tyrfing there is because they brought back all the holy wepaons, not that there's any special connection between Seliph and Sigurd and Tyrfing, both of them getting their own Seliph's Sword and Sigurd's Lance, also no sign of Leif's light sword or Blagi sword. Awakening's a terrible example as the only lords who did get their associated weapons were the two I brought up, Marth and Ike, and Awakening's Ragnell can't even shoot sword beams -_-

. . .

Armads and Sol Katti would like a word with you.

Yes, I know Sol Katti is technically not "legendary". Even Athos makes this point himself. But for these intents and purposes, it counts.

Edited by Baron the Shining Blade
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13 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I don't care what Ephraim and Eirika did since their weapons have their own identity and they never get another game in continuity with theirs. The falchion being left in Duma would make enough sense to be justifiable. Also, yes it's a plot hole. It never being brought up again especially when we visit to Valm's continent is just ridiculous. It's not like Sacred Stones where Alm's story is left there with nothing in a future game. Awakening straight up has Valentia explored.

Which requires headcanons and a lot of loopholes. And again, nothing is specifically shown with Falchion being required so even if that battle happens... Kingsfang wasn't a weapon that was needed. Using this argument is completely pointless. It's already contradicted by the lack of story and using units that you shouldn't have access too. Especially when in that "Samson and Arran" choice, an answer is given and Mystery makes sure that choice was apart of the story and had an actual outcome.

Except Grima is in his weakest state, it was accounted for in Awakening yet not in Echoes? It's clear Grima is a non canon optional boss battle with the Falchion not being required. And by your logic if the game WANTED to keep Falchion, they would've specifically shown it than a gameplay story segregation that you're hinging on. They weren't going to wipe everyone's parties for this optional non canon fanservice battle lmao. It doesn't indicate anything. If they gave a shit about making this apart of Echoes' story. They would've accounted for continuity and make some units and items unusable. Yet they're not.

It's not that common of an item, yet Alm in the DLC of Awakening also uses Alm's Blade. And the sword Alm uses is one of the two personal weapons he has so Royal Sword being the same blade in Awakening lines up. Guess it was just Awakening being weird if you can get multiple of them. I mean, as you said you can get multiple Tyrfings. 

Siegmund and Sielinde have far less of an identity than Alm's Falchion. All we know about them is...well they're effective against monsters and were used against Fomortiis. Who made them or why or when is completely unknown. Where's we know exactly who made Falchion, how it was made, why it's in Valentia and what it's been used for. I'm not saying Alm simply leaving Falchion embedded in Duma isn't possible, but it's canonical. It's not what the game wants you to think is the result of the story. Believing it is what happened is your personal headcannon. How do I know this? Because they do let you use it in Chapter 6. If they wanted to imply Falchion was something Alm used for that singular battle then they could have made it a weapon he only has access to in that singular battle. Plenty of games have done that in the past. Further more, IS released a Hero King variation of Alm for Heroes which features him with the Falcion, so as far as IS is concerned, Alm continued to use it after he was crowned King of Valentia. If they wrote a game suggesting otherwise they wouldn't have later made this incarnation of him that uses it. You can imagine Alm abandoned Falchion all you want, but that is not what the game is intentionally trying to depict and it is not what IS have established in follow up materials.

13 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

It's not that common of an item, yet Alm in the DLC of Awakening also uses Alm's Blade. And the sword Alm uses is one of the two personal weapons he has so Royal Sword being the same blade in Awakening lines up. Guess it was just Awakening being weird if you can get multiple of them. I mean, as you said you can get multiple Tyrfings. 

I said you can get multiple Tyrfings via the outrealms. As far as the story of Awakening is concerned there's only one copy of the Holy Weapons, used by the Dread Lords in a chapter near the end game. They aren't weapons you can literally find in the dirt.

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1 hour ago, Baron the Shining Blade said:

Consider Duma's final words, Falchion lodged in his skull:

"Now we shall sleep, and never will you disturb our slumber."

I'd like to think that removing Falchion would then disturb their slumber. Why would you remove the sword you just used to seal away a dragon god? And prior to Alm obtaining it, it was sealed in Mila's skull, rendering her helpless.

 

The difference is that Mila turned to stone and intentionally made the Falchion helpless, Duma is not shown to do this. If they wanted that be the suggestion they could have, but the scene just fades away.

1 hour ago, Baron the Shining Blade said:

Concerning all the weapon references in Awakening such as "Alm's Blade", first of all I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume Alm's Blade is the Royal Sword. Could we not also make similar presumptions for other weapons? The way I see it Hector's Axe is Wolf Beil, Leif's Blade is Light Sword, and Ephraim's Lance is Reginleif, Finn's Lance is his Brave Lance (w/o the brave effect), Eliwood's Blade and Roy's Blade are Elibean rapiers (w/o cav/armor effectiveness), and Eirika's Blade is a Magvel rapier (the brave effect probably reflects Eirika being a myrmidon-esque Lord like Lyn, but with a horse on promotion). I think the [Noble] Rapier are Archinean or refined Yllisean rapiers. I may be wrong and these may have just been up to our interpretation. And anyways, Awakening was to be the series swan song after all; who freaking cared (or cares) if anyone can wield Jugdral's holy weapons or that any A-rank swordsman can wield Ragnell? I sure don't. It's all in good fun, certainly a fun way to theorectically close out the series.

 

Yes, I know Sol Katti is technically not "legendary". Even Athos makes this point himself. But for these intents and purposes, it counts.

There's a difference between those things being references to those weapons and literally being those weapons though. And not that it really matters but anyone with the right weapon rank can wield Ragnell in Tellius too, it's just always locked into Ike's inventory.

1 hour ago, Baron the Shining Blade said:

 

Armads and Sol Katti would like a word with you.

Yes, I know Sol Katti is technically not "legendary". Even Athos makes this point himself. But for these intents and purposes, it counts.

Oh wait Armads is in Awakening, you're right. I can envision its icon now. Not that it really matters for this conversation one way or the other (although funnily enough Armads is one of the weapons we do know the lord stopped using after the events of the game, yet it's been made ridiculously synonymous with Hector in Heroes).

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Siegmund and Sielinde have far less of an identity than Alm's Falchion. All we know about them is...well they're effective against monsters and were used against Fomortiis. Who made them or why or when is completely unknown. Where's we know exactly who made Falchion, how it was made, why it's in Valentia and what it's been used for. I'm not saying Alm simply leaving Falchion embedded in Duma isn't possible, but it's canonical. It's not what the game wants you to think is the result of the story. Believing it is what happened is your personal headcannon. How do I know this? Because they do let you use it in Chapter 6. If they wanted to imply Falchion was something Alm used for that singular battle then they could have made it a weapon he only has access to in that singular battle. Plenty of games have done that in the past. Further more, IS released a Hero King variation of Alm for Heroes which features him with the Falcion, so as far as IS is concerned, Alm continued to use it after he was crowned King of Valentia. If they wrote a game suggesting otherwise they wouldn't have later made this incarnation of him that uses it. You can imagine Alm abandoned Falchion all you want, but that is not what the game is intentionally trying to depict and it is not what IS have established in follow up materials.

I said you can get multiple Tyrfings via the outrealms. As far as the story of Awakening is concerned there's only one copy of the Holy Weapons, used by the Dread Lords in a chapter near the end game. They aren't weapons you can literally find in the dirt.

Disagree. They have more design differences and don't share the same name and origin. That's enough for me to consider Ephraim's legendary flame lance and Eirika's legendary thunder sword to have more going for them. They even have mounts to use. All while Alm just wields another falchion of light with the same exact name. Again, Act 6 is irrelevant since it throws continuity down the shitter and lets you use Whitewings and many characters that retired or immediately got the hell out of Valentia. Plenty of games did it, but Act 6 has no story like even Awakening's outrealm journeys. Act 6 was an afterthought and their lack of changing anything in Alm and Celica's party shows. 

Oh great, you're relying on a mobile spinoff that would naturally do whatever it wants. It's the same game that brought a completely non canonical version of Ike in the game and throws contradictory stuff in on the regular. Like Eirika using a class she never used. There is nothing "intentionally depicting" Alm keeping Falchion post Duma in the timeline and actual game of Echoes nor in Awakening, but whatever dude I'll "imagine" whatever I want if you're going to act that disrespectfully. At this point don't bother to debate any further. Especially when you're pushing your own beliefs as fact, constantly trying to undersell any other viewpoint with stuff of weak canoncity and relying on material that is questionably canon. In the same damn franchise that copped out with multiple universes.

This debate is a fucking waste of time when Royal Sword still outlasted Kingsfang (and isn't a legendary weapon in Gaiden at the time. Further justifying lack of extremely special treatment) and this waste of messages and time only covered one part of my personal preference and reasoning. I'm here to appreciate the Royal Sword, not have a shitty debate about canon in a franchise full of outrealms and inconsistencies. 

Edited by Seazas
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Just to point out, but according to the calendar, Act 6 happens before Alm and Celica's coronation. The endings likely only start applying after the, well, ending, which chronologically happens after Act 6. One can justify the Whitewings' presence in Act 6 as them going with Alm and Celica to Archanea because... well, they have to return there at some point, no? It's likely that, assuming Act 6 does happen, they simply stayed behind when the rest returned to Valentia. It's just that it won't be reflected in the gameplay, because Act 6 is also the Postgame and it'd be kinda unfair to suddenly remove people from your party for clearing Thebes.

Also, the beginning of the War of Heroes is still about three-quarters of a year away, so there's no continuity issues there either.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just to point out, but according to the calendar, Act 6 happens before Alm and Celica's coronation. The endings likely only start applying after the, well, ending, which chronologically happens after Act 6. One can justify the Whitewings' presence in Act 6 as them going with Alm and Celica to Archanea because... well, they have to return there at some point, no? It's likely that, assuming Act 6 does happen, they simply stayed behind when the rest returned to Valentia. It's just that it won't be reflected in the gameplay, because Act 6 is also the Postgame and it'd be kinda unfair to suddenly remove people from your party for clearing Thebes.

Also, the beginning of the War of Heroes is still about three-quarters of a year away, so there's no continuity issues there either.

That still doesn't cover Falchion not being required against Grima, in general Act 6 is extremely awkward especially with the lack of dialogue and actual acknowledgement of the situation by Alm and Celica. 

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12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Disagree. They have more design differences and don't share the same name and origin. That's enough for me to consider Ephraim's legendary flame lance and Eirika's legendary thunder sword to have more going for them. They even have mounts to use. All while Alm just wields another falchion of light with the same exact name.

You really going to claim they have more history and identity just because they have different names? Do you think Marth's Falchion has no idenity because that's not unique either? What about Chrom's? There's literally two with the same design in his very game. Honestly at this point I feel you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing. It feels like if I claimed Marth had blue hair you'd argue it has red just for opposition even though it wouldn't strengthen your point. What is your point anyway? Part of me feels like you just made this thread because the Royal Sword came up in that other Shadows of Valentia thread and you wanted to highlight how you think it works for the themes of Shadows of Valentia. If your argument here is just that you don't like the Falchion, then fair enough. But you're argument is that Falchion is not important to Alm's story and is not established in the narrative then you're going to have to bring something much better to the table than Siegmund having a unique name means they have more identity.

12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Again, Act 6 is irrelevant since it throws continuity down the shitter and lets you use Whitewings and many characters that retired or immediately got the hell out of Valentia. Plenty of games did it, but Act 6 has no story like even Awakening's outrealm journeys. Act 6 was an afterthought and their lack of changing anything in Alm and Celica's party shows.

 

And yet it's still more evidence that Alm continued to carry Falchion after defeating Duma then anything you've suggested to the contrary. I'm not saying Act 6 is canonical, I'm just pointing out how if they wanted to suggest something they could. Instead they do absolutely nothing, zero, zilch, zipall, not a line or a cutscene or an image or and ending card to allude to the fate of Falchion after the end of the game. Saying that he didn't keep it is complete headcanon, while saying he did at least has some support from material that occurs in game. You're free to dismiss it, but it doesn't actually prove anything you say. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Oh great, you're relying on a mobile spinoff that would naturally do whatever it wants. It's the same game that brought a completely non canonical version of Ike in the game and throws contradictory stuff in on the regular. Like Eirika using a class she never used. There is nothing "intentionally depicting" Alm keeping Falchion post Duma in the timeline and actual game of Echoes nor in Awakening, but fucking whatever dude I'll "imagine" whatever the hell I want if you're going to act that disrespectfully. At this point don't bother to debate any further. Especially when you're pushing your own beliefs as fact, constantly trying to undersell any other viewpoint with stuff of weak canoncity and relying on material that is questionably canon. In the same damn franchise that copped out with multiple universes. 

I haven't pushed any of my own views as facts at all. Were I to do so I'd be talking about how Alm's dynasty lasted a thousand years which is coincidentally puts its end in the same era as Grima first arose in Awakening's backstory as an explanation as to what happened to Falchion. But I know that's not something the game is actually suggesting and merely just a possible explanation for the continuity.

12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

This debate is a fucking waste of time when Royal Sword still outlasted Kingsfang (and isn't a legendary weapon in Gaiden at the time. Further justifying lack of extremely special treatment) and this waste of messages and time only covered one part of my personal preference and reasoning. I'm here to appreciate the Royal Sword, not have a shitty debate about canon in a franchise full of outrealms and inconsistencies. 

Royal Sword didn't outlast the Kingsfang, there's a reference to it in a weapon in Awakening. If the makers of Awakening wanted it to literally be the same sword they would have literally given it the same name. To treat it as if it's the same weapon is reaching, you have to admit that. It's a generic plot unimportant weapon in Awakening on par with literal logs. There's no story to attach to it, hell it probably wasn't even the Royal Sword at the time of its creation, instead being the "box art sword." It's no more the Royal Sword than Leif's Sword is the Light Brand.

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41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You really going to claim they have more history and identity just because they have different names? Do you think Marth's Falchion has no idenity because that's not unique either? What about Chrom's? There's literally two with the same design in his very game. Honestly at this point I feel you're just disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing. It feels like if I claimed Marth had blue hair you'd argue it has red just for opposition even though it wouldn't strengthen your point. What is your point anyway? Part of me feels like you just made this thread because the Royal Sword came up in that other Shadows of Valentia thread and you wanted to highlight how you think it works for the themes of Shadows of Valentia. If your argument here is just that you don't like the Falchion, then fair enough. But you're argument is that Falchion is not important to Alm's story and is not established in the narrative then you're going to have to bring something much better to the table than Siegmund having a unique name means they have more identity.

And yet it's still more evidence that Alm continued to carry Falchion after defeating Duma then anything you've suggested to the contrary. I'm not saying Act 6 is canonical, I'm just pointing out how if they wanted to suggest something they could. Instead they do absolutely nothing, zero, zilch, zipall, not a line or a cutscene or an image or and ending card to allude to the fate of Falchion after the end of the game. Saying that he didn't keep it is complete headcanon, while saying he did at least has some support from material that occurs in game. You're free to dismiss it, but it doesn't actually prove anything you say. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I haven't pushed any of my own views as facts at all. Were I to do so I'd be talking about how Alm's dynasty lasted a thousand years which is coincidentally puts its end in the same era as Grima first arose in Awakening's backstory as an explanation as to what happened to Falchion. But I know that's not something the game is actually suggesting and merely just a possible explanation for the continuity.

Royal Sword didn't outlast the Kingsfang, there's a reference to it in a weapon in Awakening. If the makers of Awakening wanted it to literally be the same sword they would have literally given it the same name. To treat it as if it's the same weapon is reaching, you have to admit that. It's a generic plot unimportant weapon in Awakening on par with literal logs. There's no story to attach to it, hell it probably wasn't even the Royal Sword at the time of its creation, instead being the "box art sword." It's no more the Royal Sword than Leif's Sword is the Light Brand.

Falchion is Marth's weapon, Chrom's Falchion is completely different but still Marth's. Chrom's blade has an identity by virtue of drastically changing its design and giving it a lot of different shine. Alm's is the least standout. I'm not denying Kingsfang's importance to the plot. I literally never did, it just doesn't stand out as much as Royal Sword does for me regarding Alm's weapons. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're treating your own viewpoint as fact while completely disregarding any other viewpoint in this vague situation with Kingsfang as a delusional headcanon. Which is just beyond disrespectful. Especially treating HEROES of all things as the end all. Heroes... The same game that throws out multiple Alms on one map and doesn't keep consistent with characterization and unit handling. There is merit for Falchion being left in Duma but it still being an associated weapon with Alm in spinoffs, because why would it not be? Alm used it, regardless if he dropped it off or not. Spinoffs don't care for continuity, Heroes itself had Deliverance based Alm (without the promotion design nor Act 5 based) randomly use Falchion and never talk about slaying Duma. Fuck that dude, I don't care. That's not definitive proof for the timeline, random spinoffs don't dictate everything.

It shares a similar design and Alm's blade HAS to be the Royal Sword. There's no other weapon associated with Alm outside of Falchion. That's the only Alm exclusively weapon left. It doesn't resemble any other sword in Valentia either. 

Edited by Seazas
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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Falchion is Marth's weapon, Chrom's Falchion is completely different but still Marth's. Chrom's blade has an identity by virtue of drastically changing its design and giving it a lot of different shine. Alm's is the least standout. I'm not denying Kingsfang's importance to the plot. I literally never did, it just doesn't stand out as much as Royal Sword does for me regarding Alm's weapons. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

And evidently Falchion is also Alm's weapon of choice. See all the Heroes and Cipher incarnations of hum using it. Marth uses a rapier and Falcion, Alm uses the Royal Sword and Falchion. They both have two weapons of choice. This is not a view point, it's a fact.

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

You're treating your own viewpoint as fact while completely disregarding any other viewpoint in this vague situation with Kingsfang as a delusional headcanon. Which is just beyond disrespectful.

 

You say I'm treating my viewpoint as fact, but let me ask you, what is my viewpoint? Because I have treated nothing as fact (and yes, that includes Echoe's postgame), I've only said that you're headcanon is not supported by the evidence in game and thus cannot be used to argue the merit of how it influence's Alm's future design directions.

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Especially treating HEROES of all things as the end all. Heroes... The same game that throws out multiple Alms on one map and doesn't keep consistent with characterization and unit handling. There is merit for Falchion being left in Duma but it still being an associated weapon with Alm in spinoffs, because why would it not be? Alm used it, regardless if he dropped it off or not. Spinoffs don't care for continuity, Heroes itself had Deliverance based Alm (without the promotion design nor Act 5 based) randomly use Falchion and never talk about slaying Duma. Fuck that dude, I don't care. That's not definitive proof for the timeline, random spinoffs don't dictate everything.

 

Okay, so what are we talking about here? The thread is "I really hope royal sword is a constant part of Alm's kit in future games and appearances involving him." So what does that entail? Are you hoping Royal Sword will appear in another Gaiden remake? That's a given if we should ever get another one a few decades down the line. Alm's story is finished, barring some unexpected sequel, all he has are spin offs and cameos. You're also fundamentally missing my point when I'm referring to Heroes, Cipher and Chapter 6. I'm not arguing those things are canon to Shadows of Valentia. What I'm saying is that if, as you believe, the people writing Shadows of Valentia wrote a story in which they intended the take away from the ending to be that Alm abandoned Falchion after the final battle, they failed immensely to convey that and in the material made (or in Chapter 6's case set) after it, they have not just failed to make this plot point clearer, they have in fact contradicted it by repeatedly associating Falchion with Alm, even in incarnations that take place after the game.

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

It shares a similar design and Alm's blade HAS to be the Royal Sword. There's no other weapon associated with Alm outside of Falchion. That's the only Alm exclusively weapon left. It doesn't resemble any other sword in Valentia either. 

Two things looking similar don't make them the same thing. Alm's Blade is a reference to the Royal Sword, that does not make it the Royal Sword. If they wanted it to be the Royal Sword then they would have called it the Royal Sword just like the called Ragnell, Ragnell or Armads, Armads. Instead they took the same formula they had for almost every other lord in the franchise at that point and called it "(Lord's) (Weapon)" and then regulated it to something you can pick up on the ground. And they easily could have kept it the same name and made it a weapon of note, evidently they just thought Sol, Luna and Astra were better choices for weapons to reference Gaiden (if those even were references and not convergent evolution, there is a Vengeance Axe too).

 

Edited by Jotari
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44 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And evidently Falchion is also Alm's weapon of choice. See all the Heroes and Cipher incarnations of hum using it. Marth uses a rapier and Falcion, Alm uses the Royal Sword and Falchion. They both have two weapons of choice. This is not a view point, it's a fact.

You say I'm treating my viewpoint as fact, but let me ask you, what is my viewpoint? Because I have treated nothing as fact (and yes, that includes Echoe's postgame), I've only said that you're headcanon is not supported by the evidence in game and thus cannot be used to argue the merit of how it influence's Alm's future design directions.

Okay, so what are we talking about here? The thread is "I really hope royal sword is a constant part of Alm's kit in future games and appearances involving him." So what does that entail? Are you hoping Royal Sword will appear in another Gaiden remake? That's a given if we should ever get another one a few decades down the line. Alm's story is finished, barring some unexpected sequel, all he has are spin offs and cameos. You're also fundamentally missing my point when I'm referring to Heroes, Cipher and Chapter 6. I'm not arguing those things are canon to Shadows of Valentia. What I'm saying is that if, as you believe, the people writing Shadows of Valentia wrote a story in which they intended the take away from the ending to be that Alm abandoned Falchion after the final battle, they failed immensely to convey that and in the material made (or in Chapter 6's case set) after it, they have not just failed to make this plot point clearer, they have in fact contradicted it by repeatedly associating Falchion with Alm, even in incarnations that take place after the game.

Two things looking similar don't make them the same thing. Alm's Blade is a reference to the Royal Sword, that does not make it the Royal Sword. If they wanted it to be the Royal Sword then they would have called it the Royal Sword just like the called Ragnell, Ragnell or Armads, Armads. Instead they took the same formula they had for almost every other lord in the franchise at that point and called it "(Lord's) (Weapon)" and then regulated it to something you can pick up on the ground. And they easily could have kept it the same name and made it a weapon of note, evidently they just thought Sol, Luna and Astra were better choices for weapons to reference Gaiden (if those even were references and not convergent evolution, there is a Vengeance Axe too).

 

And? Of course Alm would use a weapon he used in Echoes in Cipher + Heroes. I just don't want Royal Sword to be shafted and to get at least equal shine with the Falchion. I know that a legendary weapon will always be associated. I don't magically want it to disappear or some nonsense. I appreciate the Royal Sword, it's uniqueness and how much stuff it brings more than Falcon.

By actively saying that the idea of Alm casting Falchion to the side is impossible and cannot happen over spinoffs. When what happened to the Kingsfang is vague, Alm using his iconic weapon in other FE media non canon to Echoes doesn't erase the possibility. Then saying shit actively shit like "iMAGINE IT ALL YOU WANT. DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT VALENTIA INTENDED-" which was petty and unnecessary. You are not Intsys. Don't speak for them and trying to pretend you know everything. I fully accept that Alm keeping Falchion in Duma is only a possibility. You're trying to treat that Alm keeping it is canon no matter what and that non canon gameplay based stuff is the indicators. Which is so stupid since they're non canon scenarios.

No. I just want Royal Sword to be apart of any future appearances with Alm. Spinoff (like Warriors) or mainline (through amiibo). Not getting completely shafted by Kingsfang. Alm still using weapons in non canon Act 6 that doesn't change or alter your party in any way to account for continuity. It being a continuation of the story or not is entirely left in the air and the canoncity is debatable. Alm being associated with an iconic weapon in spinoffs that naturally would that doesn't speak for continuity. They're just using the main character with the main known weapon. That doesn't account for Awakening nor directly answers if Alm kept it or not. That is just your assumption and view on it.

Royal Sword was nothing in Gaiden, just a footnote blade that happened to be exclusive to Alm. Echoes is the game that actually gave it a standout design and role. Royal Sword and Alm's Blade are the same thing: similar design and the only blade left that's exclusive to Alm. You haven't proven otherwise outside of gameplay story segregation. Even worse when Alm uses "Alm's Blade" in Awakening DLC with it literally looking exactly like the Royal Sword in Awakening's official artwork of Alm's Blade. 

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2 hours ago, Seazas said:

And? Of course Alm would use a weapon he used in Echoes in Cipher + Heroes. I just don't want Royal Sword to be shafted and to get at least equal shine with the Falchion. I know that a legendary weapon will always be associated. I don't magically want it to disappear or some nonsense. I appreciate the Royal Sword, it's uniqueness and how much stuff it brings more than Falcon.

 

I know you're saying that. And I don't dispute that. And it is in Cipher and Heroes (albeit not on Alm).

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

By actively saying that the idea of Alm casting Falchion to the side is impossible and cannot happen over spinoffs. When what happened to the Kingsfang is vague, Alm using his iconic weapon in other FE media non canon to Echoes doesn't erase the possibility. Then saying shit actively shit like "iMAGINE IT ALL YOU WANT. DOESN'T CHANGE WHAT VALENTIA INTENDED-" which was petty and unnecessary. You are not Intsys. Don't speak for them and trying to pretend you know everything. I fully accept that Alm keeping Falchion in Duma is only a possibility. You're trying to treat that Alm keeping it is canon no matter what and that non canon gameplay based stuff is the indicators. Which is so stupid since they're non canon scenarios.

 

When did I say it was impossible? In fact.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Siegmund and Sielinde have far less of an identity than Alm's Falchion. All we know about them is...well they're effective against monsters and were used against Fomortiis. Who made them or why or when is completely unknown. Where's we know exactly who made Falchion, how it was made, why it's in Valentia and what it's been used for. I'm not saying Alm simply leaving Falchion embedded in Duma isn't possible, but it's not canonical. It's not what the game wants you to think is the result of the story. Believing it is what happened is your personal headcannon. How do I know this? Because they do let you use it in Chapter 6. If they wanted to imply Falchion was something Alm used for that singular battle then they could have made it a weapon he only has access to in that singular battle. Plenty of games have done that in the past. Further more, IS released a Hero King variation of Alm for Heroes which features him with the Falcion, so as far as IS is concerned, Alm continued to use it after he was crowned King of Valentia. If they wrote a game suggesting otherwise they wouldn't have later made this incarnation of him that uses it. You can imagine Alm abandoned Falchion all you want, but that is not what the game is intentionally trying to depict and it is not what IS have established in follow up materials.

 

I don't you're actually listening to what I'm saying. You're reading the text but you're not actually hearing me when you say stuff like I'm treating my few as fact when I've done nothing of the sort. All I've said is that the idea of Alm abandoning Falchion is not supported by the text and that there is more support for the alternative from ancillary materials. That's it. If you agree with that statement then we're golden. Maybe Alm abandoned Falchion, maybe he didn't, but saying the Royal Sword should have more prominence because he did isn't really factual (and also that Alm's Blade is a reference to the Royal Sword and not literally the same weapon).

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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

I know you're saying that. And I don't dispute that. And it is in Cipher and Heroes (albeit not on Alm).

When did I say it was impossible? In fact.

I don't you're actually listening to what I'm saying. You're reading the text but you're not actually hearing me when you say stuff like I'm treating my few as fact when I've done nothing of the sort. All I've said is that the idea of Alm abandoning Falchion is not supported by the text and that there is more support for the alternative from ancillary materials. That's it. If you agree with that statement then we're golden. Maybe Alm abandoned Falchion, maybe he didn't, but saying the Royal Sword should have more prominence because he did isn't really factual (and also that Alm's Blade is a reference to the Royal Sword and not literally the same weapon).

Which was lame since the Royal Sword is Alm's personal weapon. It should be apart of Alm's kit, Celica has more than enough of her own stuff.

It felt like you treated it as impossible especially when you're trying to claim what Valentia's writers intended. When we don't know that. Hell, they never entertained the idea of Alm keeping it. The stuff with Act 6 was purely gameplay with no alterations to the party. I believe the Royal Sword would fit well since it covers up the entire vague Kingsfang situation. I firmly believe Royal Sword and Alm's Blade are similar weapons. There's no other sword of Alm's that looks like that, it just wasn't treated too special because Gaiden didn't treat it special. Echoes is the only game to make it stand out.

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On 8/12/2020 at 8:57 PM, Seazas said:

Alm and Celica should at least show up fairly often due to being lords

Why would they show up in future FE games, especially if said games take place on a completely different continent? It would make no narrative sense whatsoever.

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18 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Why would they show up in future FE games, especially if said games take place on a completely different continent? It would make no narrative sense whatsoever.

Amiibo 

But spinoffs should at least allow them the opportunity. Even if it's just Alm and Celica from Echoes.

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