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Yuri and the Entire Concept of Abyss really needed a game that wasn't Three Houses


Seazas
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The entire narrative doesn't support them much. It hurts a lot that I adore what they did with Yuri's writing but because he was thrown in through DLC, he doesn't feel as explored as he could've been.

He had everything going for him to be a really compelling interesting lord with a concept of an underground society having a lot of potential than just an afterthought.


Constance, Balthus and Hapi felt a little smoother even if they could've used more. Yuri had so much potential though. Now he's just left with an implied hefty arc that we don't get to witness since he's DLC, having to be an afterthought to a game with jank graphics and system, a tiny amount of supports, a conflict that blatantly doesn't involve Yuri, stuck having to shine in Cindered Shadows only (ugh), and left with so much potential without reaching half of it. 

He was blatant lord/major plot character material... What a waste.

Abyss is just all over the place and that goes without saying.

Edited by Seazas
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I feel the least they could have done was give him a support with the lords- particularly Claude. Both of them are cool with playing dirty if it’s to achieve their goal. Yuri is hardly the first person to have the motivation of “I was saved as a child so now I wanna save people too”, but his willingness to bend the rules and actively participate in Fodlan’s criminal underbelly make him unique. I agree that he certainly could have used more screen time, or a game that centres on him and his journey.

He’s like this weird blend of cynicism and naïveté, which I adore, but without ever seeing his gang in the story it’s hard to feel the influence he’s supposed to exert in Fodlan. I still enjoy him as a character though.

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Honestly I think Yuri is one of my least favourite characters in the game. I agree that our initial look at him has potential, a lord who's willing to play a bit dirty to do good is certainly intriguing enough. But unfortunately, his role in the CS plot involving the dramatic triple-cross just felt like corny and unbelievable storytelling to me. And then there's his A support with Bernadetta which really rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like it was trying justify her abusive father's behaviour. "You're lucky to have a father who cares for you enough to [traumatize you so much you felt unable to make friends]". Not cool.

And yeah, Abyss doesn't make much sense, something like that existing should completely up-end the game but is barely explored at all.

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1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

I feel the least they could have done was give him a support with the lords- particularly Claude. Both of them are cool with playing dirty if it’s to achieve their goal. Yuri is hardly the first person to have the motivation of “I was saved as a child so now I wanna save people too”, but his willingness to bend the rules and actively participate in Fodlan’s criminal underbelly make him unique. I agree that he certainly could have used more screen time, or a game that centres on him and his journey.

He’s like this weird blend of cynicism and naïveté, which I adore, but without ever seeing his gang in the story it’s hard to feel the influence he’s supposed to exert in Fodlan. I still enjoy him as a character though.

Exactly. He's lord material because he showcases that genuine heart and willingness to protect others (in this case, his gang) and can clearly do what's right when it comes down to it. Unlike the other Abyss members, Yuri feels the most disconnected and had a longer ongoing story going off his interaction with Rhea in CS, his connection to Count Rowe, connection to Bernadetta and he clearly made his way around Fodlan as a whole. Constance, Balthus and Hapi all exist for the 3 house leaders and their respective situations. Yuri doesn't. He needed his own standalone story. 

40 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly I think Yuri is one of my least favourite characters in the game. I agree that our initial look at him has potential, a lord who's willing to play a bit dirty to do good is certainly intriguing enough. But unfortunately, his role in the CS plot involving the dramatic triple-cross just felt like corny and unbelievable storytelling to me. And then there's his A support with Bernadetta which really rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like it was trying justify her abusive father's behaviour. "You're lucky to have a father who cares for you enough to [traumatize you so much you felt unable to make friends]". Not cool.

And yeah, Abyss doesn't make much sense, something like that existing should completely up-end the game but is barely explored at all.

I didn't mind the Bernie support since it gave Count Varley more than just "bad dad". It's not like it makes Bernadetta better since Varley will always negatively impact her. Glad we agree that the Abyss and Yuri got completely fucked by Three Houses' writing. The narrative blatantly doesn't support him, Yuri needs a story of his own than the mess that was CIndered Shadows.

Edited by Seazas
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I don't so much think Three Houses is the problem as opposed to how the Ashen Wolves get randomly tied into things outside of the DLC story.

Honestly, I think it'd have been better to have had Cindered Shadows take place within the main story and after that arc concludes, rather than having everyone go their seperate ways, have Yuri try to organize the residents of Abyss to stand against everyone and usurp the church, gaining allies in the form of the house you started with and those that openly oppose the church to begin with but don't have the individual power to stand against them (House Ordelia for example).

I think that'd tie everything up nicely and the only real problem would be a temporary base until the player's faction manages to take over the Monastary or something.

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13 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

I don't so much think Three Houses is the problem as opposed to how the Ashen Wolves get randomly tied into things outside of the DLC story.

Honestly, I think it'd have been better to have had Cindered Shadows take place within the main story and after that arc concludes, rather than having everyone go their seperate ways, have Yuri try to organize the residents of Abyss to stand against everyone and usurp the church, gaining allies in the form of the house you started with and those that openly oppose the church to begin with but don't have the individual power to stand against them (House Ordelia for example).

I think that'd tie everything up nicely and the only real problem would be a temporary base until the player's faction manages to take over the Monastary or something.

The problem is Three Houses. Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude have a fully set story. Also the idea of trying to usurp the church is lame with Edelgard already making an effort to do that in the main game and completely destroy it.

A lord like Yuri would've been awesome...

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2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

The problem is Three Houses. Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude have a fully set story. Also the idea of trying to usurp the church is lame with Edelgard already making an effort to do that in the main game and completely destroy it.

A lord like Yuri would've been awesome...

I was thinking more along the lines of him taking a far different approach.

Maybe not so much as usurp it it as opposed to actually exposing them for the manipulation, lies and deceit. Of course, this'd likely lead to Abyss as a whole being targetted and thus the player's decision on who to stand with there could take an interesting turn. Maybe it's just me being a sucker for choice but I definitely agree that the characters shouldn't just randomly be there in the main game with the only reason for joining you being something you accomplished entirely elsewhere and elsewhen.

Seems like a waste of perfectly great opportunities and it'd definitely fit Yuri's leadership style to put him in command of Abyss in that way.

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I see your point, but on the other hand, would you prefer it if Cindered Shadows had only had characters who were bland and boring with no potential at all? Obviously, the best case scenario is if they have characters with a self-contained story arc that is still compelling while fitting exactly into the confines of the DLC, but that's a tricky balancing act. And if they're going to err, it's probably better that they err in the direction of leaving bits of story untold than that of not having enough story to fill all the space.

I also honestly can't see Intelligent Systems ever making a full game about an underground movement with a Yuri-style main character. Fire Emblem games tend to have very consistent theming and aesthetic; they're mostly about kingdoms and lords and princesses and dragons and nations. Even in a game like Radiant Dawn where you start out as a resistance movement against an enemy occupation has you meeting up with royalty as early as chapter 4. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see them taking a few more risks with things. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

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8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And yeah, Abyss doesn't make much sense, something like that existing should completely up-end the game but is barely explored at all.

Exactly this. Abyss had a huge amount of potential, both as a world in its own right and in its relationship to topside Garreg Mach. The devs made a small effort with that (introducing NPCs grumbling about the Abyss in the updates prior to the DLC was a nice touch) but once Abyss came out, it became clear just how token that effort was.

The worst thing about all that wasted potential is how noticeable it is. Like the OP says, Yuri in particular is wasted, with much of his world existing outside of what 3H covers, but barely a glimpse of that shown. Although I did have this complaint about the BE characters (and Constance/Mercedes/Jeritza) too, since the Empire is so much bigger than what we are shown of it.  I would have happily given up costumes and stat-boosters for the DLC to have all gone into a better Abyss experience.

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4 hours ago, lenticular said:

I see your point, but on the other hand, would you prefer it if Cindered Shadows had only had characters who were bland and boring with no potential at all? Obviously, the best case scenario is if they have characters with a self-contained story arc that is still compelling while fitting exactly into the confines of the DLC, but that's a tricky balancing act. And if they're going to err, it's probably better that they err in the direction of leaving bits of story untold than that of not having enough story to fill all the space.

I also honestly can't see Intelligent Systems ever making a full game about an underground movement with a Yuri-style main character. Fire Emblem games tend to have very consistent theming and aesthetic; they're mostly about kingdoms and lords and princesses and dragons and nations. Even in a game like Radiant Dawn where you start out as a resistance movement against an enemy occupation has you meeting up with royalty as early as chapter 4. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see them taking a few more risks with things. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

But that's the thing, Lenticular. Constance, Hapi and Balthus are interesting and fit Fodlan well. They directly tie into Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude, they downright have supports with them too. Yuri is an outlier and just doesn't fit as smoothly. He provides so much potential outside of Three Houses. A lord like him works since he still has heart and can directly fight for good. At the very least be a good major character in another game. Abyss in its current state just doesn't work in Fodlan. I definitely believe it could work in a narrative that supports it. 

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Actually, I think that over the course of the short dlc campaign, Yuri is incredibly well realized. He's basically the chessmaster & trickster that Claude was pitched as (but never really had the opportunity to show himself as). Yuri is quite possibly the most intelligent lord we've had (and yes, I do consider him to be a full lord), going off of our very short time with him.

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18 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Actually, I think that over the course of the short dlc campaign, Yuri is incredibly well realized. He's basically the chessmaster & trickster that Claude was pitched as (but never really had the opportunity to show himself as). Yuri is quite possibly the most intelligent lord we've had (and yes, I do consider him to be a full lord), going off of our very short time with him.

Don't know if I can agree. Yuri's whole concept could've used a story to itself than a mediocre DLC campaign narrative. Because at the end of the day, it's still Byleth's, Edelgard's. Dimitri's and Claude's story. I wish Yuri was accepted as a full lord, but he's clearly not. 

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Just now, Seazas said:

Don't know if I can agree. Yuri's whole concept could've used a story to itself than a mediocre DLC campaign narrative. Because at the end of the day, it's still Byleth's, Edelgard's. Dimitri's and Claude's story. 

Honestly, when you take out all of the padding (monastery exploration, auxiliary battles) the number of chapters available in Cindered Shadows is comparable enough to that of the war arc for each campaign - and it's the war arc where the main lords actually get their own stories.

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10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And then there's his A support with Bernadetta which really rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like it was trying justify her abusive father's behaviour. "You're lucky to have a father who cares for you enough to [traumatize you so much you felt unable to make friends]". Not cool.

Yeah I didn't think we needed count Varley of all characters to get a rehabilitation. 

However I think the support also brings another problem with Yuri to the table. They just made the character do far too much to make much sense. 

Yuri's a fairly young guy but he's got a backstory and status worth of several lifetimes. Its as if they combined the backstory of every character they had to cut.

-For years he was raised by an old sage implied to be one of the Apostles
- He's the maffia boss of western fodlan despite his age
-He's Bernie's first friend
- The adopted son of count Rowe
- Founder of the Ashen wolves
-Blackmailed right hand of mister friendzone
- And finally Rhea's double agent. 

Yuri's 19. Only barely not a kid anymore. Where did he even find the time to do all of those things? 

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

But that's the thing, Lenticular. Constance, Hapi and Balthus are interesting and fit Fodlan well. They directly tie into Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude, they downright have supports with them too. Yuri is an outlier and just doesn't fit as smoothly. He provides so much potential outside of Three Houses. A lord like him works since he still has heart and can directly fight for good. At the very least be a good major character in another game. Abyss in its current state just doesn't work in Fodlan. I definitely believe it could work in a narrative that supports it. 

Honestly, I feel that Abyss as a concept works well with Fódlan as a setting. One of the big themes throughout the game is how the Church and the system of Crests and nobility can break people. We see what happened to Mercedes, for instance, or Miklan. But then at the same time, we also see the more benevolent side of the Church. In fact, Mercedes is an example of that as well, but there's also Cyril, for example. That duality is a huge part of the setting. And so, we have Abyss, a city beneath a city, inhabited by outcasts and those who have been failed by society, struggling to make ends meet as best they can. And yet, it's not completely disconnected, as some members of the church do take an interest, and do try to do right by Abyss. Which many Abyssians are distrustful of, since they've been mistreated in the past.

To me, that's a pretty compelling conept that fits really well within the world and expands upon it. I have some issues with how it actually ended up, but that's mostly a problem of implementation rather than any conceptual flaw.

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51 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yuri's a fairly young guy but he's got a backstory and status worth of several lifetimes. Its as if they combined the backstory of every character they had to cut.

-For years he was raised by an old sage implied to be one of the Apostles
- He's the maffia boss of western fodlan despite his age
-He's Bernie's first friend
- The adopted son of count Rowe
- Founder of the Ashen wolves
-Blackmailed right hand of mister friendzone
- And finally Rhea's double agent. 

Yuri's 19. Only barely not a kid anymore. Where did he even find the time to do all of those things? 

Yuri's backstory does have a lot going on, but I tried to sort things out:

-It's implied that that Aubin(?) didn't spend much time with the Leclercs before he died; Yuri became sick not too long after Aubin taught him to read and write, then Aubin cured him and died shortly after. If we assume that Yuri caught the plague that Cornelia cured, then this would be the year 1165 at latest, when Yuri would be five. 1165 is also the year that Aelfric founded the Ashen Wolves.

-Yuri describes himself as "a kid" when he was hired to assassinate Bernie, so this probably happened before he was adopted into House Rowe at age 14. He doesn't seem to have a high opinion of House Rowe, so he probably continued his gang business on the side.

-Yuri attends the Officers Academy in 1178 at age 17-18, but he doesn't graduate and ends up in Abyss. Constance attended the previous year and probably ended up in Abyss before him. Balthus and Hapi both entered Abyss in 1179. Since Yuri being in Abyss was Aelfric's plan all along, he probably arranged his leverage beforehand. Maybe Rhea asked him to keep an eye on Aelfric after he was expelled?

Edelgard's younger than him and has been planning her takeover for some years, so evidently teenagers can get a lot done in Fódlan (even if Yuri didn't have an evil organization helping him).

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5 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

Yuri describes himself as "a kid" when he was hired to assassinate Bernie, so this probably happened before he was adopted into House Rowe at age 14. He doesn't seem to have a high opinion of House Rowe, so he probably continued his gang business on the side.

When fighting Gwendal, his battle quote seems to confirm that nobody in House Rowe (outside of Gwendal) treated him particularly well. If you were already referring to that, then apologies - if not, then I'd be interested to know what other evidence there is about his time in House Rowe.

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7 hours ago, Seazas said:

Don't know if I can agree. Yuri's whole concept could've used a story to itself than a mediocre DLC campaign narrative. Because at the end of the day, it's still Byleth's, Edelgard's. Dimitri's and Claude's story. I wish Yuri was accepted as a full lord, but he's clearly not. 

I would say Yuri is comparable to Lyn in this regard. They both get their own stories - not especially long ones, but they're their own. We get to see what their character is like, amd how they perform as a unit. Then they generally get overshadowed when it comes to the main story, but they still have the chance to participate.

Yuri was sort of "teased" to be a Lord, and shares some similarities with the main three (Sword and Authority boons, sort of a house leader). But he can't even access the Lord class. So I don't think IS intended him to be thought of as a "main character", outside of the Cindered Shadows campaign. 

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3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would say Yuri is comparable to Lyn in this regard. They both get their own stories - not especially long ones, but they're their own. We get to see what their character is like, amd how they perform as a unit. Then they generally get overshadowed when it comes to the main story, but they still have the chance to participate.

Yuri was sort of "teased" to be a Lord, and shares some similarities with the main three (Sword and Authority boons, sort of a house leader). But he can't even access the Lord class. So I don't think IS intended him to be thought of as a "main character", outside of the Cindered Shadows campaign. 

If Yuri was anything like Lyn, we would've had a lot of his personal story explored. The DLC campaign was more about Byleth and his/her's mom than Yuri himself. 

They failed at their intentions. Since Yuri feels the least connected and the most unsatisfying. He needed a bigger campaign since to many... his current story feels all over the place.

11 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Honestly, when you take out all of the padding (monastery exploration, auxiliary battles) the number of chapters available in Cindered Shadows is comparable enough to that of the war arc for each campaign - and it's the war arc where the main lords actually get their own stories.

Dimitri, Claude and Edelgard still get a lot of action pre timeskip so... They definitely have more than Yuri. 

9 hours ago, lenticular said:

Honestly, I feel that Abyss as a concept works well with Fódlan as a setting. One of the big themes throughout the game is how the Church and the system of Crests and nobility can break people. We see what happened to Mercedes, for instance, or Miklan. But then at the same time, we also see the more benevolent side of the Church. In fact, Mercedes is an example of that as well, but there's also Cyril, for example. That duality is a huge part of the setting. And so, we have Abyss, a city beneath a city, inhabited by outcasts and those who have been failed by society, struggling to make ends meet as best they can. And yet, it's not completely disconnected, as some members of the church do take an interest, and do try to do right by Abyss. Which many Abyssians are distrustful of, since they've been mistreated in the past.

To me, that's a pretty compelling conept that fits really well within the world and expands upon it. I have some issues with how it actually ended up, but that's mostly a problem of implementation rather than any conceptual flaw.

Dunno, the Church had a lot of flaws as is. Didn't need an underground society that really failed to change any of the current debates and discussion much. Even worse when Intsys copped out and made it clear that only some of the books are true and some are not. Then they purposefully made it vague on which ones. That makes the Abyss library unreliable for what's the actual lore and what's not. Constance, Hapi and Balthus were great and would've worked either way without Abyss.

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6 hours ago, Seazas said:

Even worse when Intsys copped out and made it clear that only some of the books are true and some are not. Then they purposefully made it vague on which ones. That makes the Abyss library unreliable for what's the actual lore and what's not.

How is that a cop out? As far as I'm aware, it was never intended to be fully reliable. Did I manage to miss something where they said that and then changed their minds? Honestly, I'm happy that they didn't have the library be full of "this is the actual one true unambiguous history" because that's not how any of the rest of the story worked. Everything else in teh game has been about different sides with different perspectives having their own version of history, with all of them being flawed and biased in some way. I see the fact that people are able to play the game and come away with wildly different interpretations (cf. literally every discussion ever about Edelgard or Rhea) as a strength of the story, not a weakness.

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On 8/13/2020 at 1:08 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly I think Yuri is one of my least favourite characters in the game. I agree that our initial look at him has potential, a lord who's willing to play a bit dirty to do good is certainly intriguing enough. But unfortunately, his role in the CS plot involving the dramatic triple-cross just felt like corny and unbelievable storytelling to me. And then there's his A support with Bernadetta which really rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like it was trying justify her abusive father's behaviour. "You're lucky to have a father who cares for you enough to [traumatize you so much you felt unable to make friends]". Not cool.

And yeah, Abyss doesn't make much sense, something like that existing should completely up-end the game but is barely explored at all.

I didn't find the end of CS to be that far-fetched, I don't really see it as a triple-cross - more that he didn't want to double-cross in the first place. He was forced to, and had to make it convincing enough to fool Aelfric. It was a fake double-cross. I'll admit that the writing was fairly corny, but I can see what they were going for.

That aside, it definitely does bother me that Yuri is written as an arrogant edgelord where it wasn't necessary. This might be more of an issue with him being written into the monastery than with CS itself. I feel like they probably tried too hard to make him a 'tough guy' since he's effeminate -  I'm thinking of his supports with Byleth. It's kind of the opposite of how they messed up Leon in SoV. (btw, couldn't they make them look different at all??)

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Yuri has my favorite lord support chain and I think he’s a pretty dynamic character, but I’m still not sure how I liked how a secret underground society was slotted under the monastery... particularly if it was the church that helped persecute many of them.

Also not sure I was a fan of the monologue explaining everything to the villain when he could still retaliate lol

Edited by Crysta
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1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Yuri has my favorite lord support chain and I think he’s a pretty dynamic character, but I’m still not sure how I liked how a secret underground society was slotted under the monastery... particularly if it was the church that helped persecute many of them.

Also not sure I was a fan of the monologue explaining everything to the villain when he could still retaliate lol

No, but, see, Yuri was trying to prove that he’s a villain and Aelfric isn’t by monologuing endlessly.

They really should have cut that speech down a bit, if they kept it in at all. But then players wouldn’t know what the hell was going on in Yuri’s head this whole time, I guess.

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On 8/12/2020 at 10:08 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

And then there's his A support with Bernadetta which really rubbed me the wrong way because it seemed like it was trying justify her abusive father's behaviour. "You're lucky to have a father who cares for you enough to [traumatize you so much you felt unable to make friends]". Not cool.

Bernie's trauma was always horribly told imo. No matter which support it is, it either completely sweeps the problem under the rug or plays it for a laugh.

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On 8/21/2020 at 7:32 PM, Dandy Druid said:

Bernie's trauma was always horribly told imo. No matter which support it is, it either completely sweeps the problem under the rug or plays it for a laugh.

I strongly disagree (and Bernadetta's high popularity, particularly among people who struggle with anxiety themselves, suggests I'm not alone) but I think that debate is outside the scope of this thread.

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