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Cavalry Need Help - Agree or Disagree?


Anacybele
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36 minutes ago, NSSKG151 said:

I was pretty much going to say what @SatsumaFSoysoy said. Lull skills alone helped cavalry units out. I think cavlary units are not in as bad a position as people are trying to make it out to be. If the developers think cavalry need a boost they will probably introduce some new skill for them to take advantage of like Lull did. Not to mention having three movement is kind of fair trade for lest bst with how small Heroes' maps are.

Pretty much every ranged cavalry unit can still be good with generic stuff like Bladetomes, Brave/Firesweep Bow, Pain/Gravity Staff etc. (Unfortunately daggers are out of luck but there has only ever been one dagger cavalry in Summer Linde) Really it's just gen 1/2 sword, lance and axe units that struggle but even then they are some decent ones like Eliwood, Ares, Cain, Abel, Roderick and Frederick that I can name off the top of my head.

Really my only problem is that the new maps in Arena Assault are not very cavalry friendly with all the trenches and whatnot placed in just a way that frustrates me at times.

i think the new maps are encouraging more mixed teams (including flying dancers). because you can use peony or azura (or flying olivia, reyson with duel skills), pop ground orders on then and then they're able to be able to navigate those issues. 

 

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Surtr is not good. He is pretty pathetic and easy to kill. A blade mage can overwhelm his bulk and Firesweepers can quickly whittle him down.

That is easier to say these days where there are approximately one million skills that invalid Wary Fighter. He was enough of a pain back around his release that they removed him from the PvE unit pool shortly afterwards.

Now if you want true cancer, try Hel with Mystic Boost when you have no mages or carelessly got the only mage you had killed like I did. I’m actually appalled that that combination is allowed to be a thing.

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22 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I'll refer you back to CA3 Firesweep Lyn. She had no counter.

Armors could just stand there and tank for ages.

 

4 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Now if you want true cancer, try Hel with Mystic Boost when you have no mages or carelessly got the only mage you had killed like I did. I’m actually appalled that that combination is allowed to be a thing.

Huh. I should do that. That sounds way more fun than Guard Bearing.

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@Ice Dragon Fair enough, and I guess that explains it as I was never in whale territory so it was a lot of WF/BL+ Effie and vanilla Hector who were never a huge threat.

Re-CA Lyn, chip, reposition, repeat until special. Might take forever, but works like a charm and even the AI wasn't too dumb to manage it on occasion 😛 I'm speaking on year 1 arena of course, so no time limit or difficult terrain. AR is a very different story. Also, don't take this too seriously. I'm being rather tongue-in-cheek. My initial point was mostly that yeah, there painful units, but Lynhardt was a problem for a reason. A problem I liked because they're still two of my favorites, but I absolutely get why IS took such a sledgehammer to it at the time.

@Anacybele I had a feeling you'd like him 😉 Sylvain was another that immediately came to mind since he's a personal favorite, the Lance of Ruin is awesome, and I remembered you linking him, but I can't imagine him being a demote. Perceval was basically everything I wanted out of a cav, dual phased mixed bulk unit that makes use of all his stats, but there's no way I'll ever be able to +10 him. So really anyone that's basically a 4* lite version of him would be a dream. Essentially cav Echidna or Norne.

As for skills, lulls are nice, though I wish they were more available, and while more toys is nice, I'm honestly okay with them having fewer unique skills. Some would be nice, but as with fliers, their movement is an innate advantage. I also think the BST boost, in conjunction with decent personal weapons, helped a lot in making all-around cavs more viable. The ceiling for stats hasn't really gone up (40 at launch vs 42 now), so this just let's them patch up their weaknesses without dumping their strengths.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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It's true that infantry got a lot of shiny new toys, doesn't mean cav sucks at all.

There's plenty of good cavs units, you just don't see them very often because they require investment to be useful.

I do think some cavs got the short end of the stick when it comes to their refine, but it's not the case for every single refine for cavs. There's bad refines for every single class.

Edited by Nym
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32 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Now if you want true cancer, try Hel with Mystic Boost when you have no mages or carelessly got the only mage you had killed like I did. I’m actually appalled that that combination is allowed to be a thing.

That's actually an amazing combo. I've been using Hel quite a lot these days and I didn't think about this. Even at neutral with all flowers and Spd/Res Solo she can tank one mage or two. When does Eir return (quite the Irony an Eir will die to make Hel stronger, IS did or on purpose) ? I need to make this happen (I hate guard bearing). 

Edited by SuperNova125
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2 hours ago, daisy jane said:

i think the new maps are encouraging more mixed teams (including flying dancers). because you can use peony or azura (or flying olivia, reyson with duel skills), pop ground orders on then and then they're able to be able to navigate those issues. 

Yeah, I got the sense that the new maps was encouraging mixed movement type teams. It's something I need to consider when playing Arena Assault now since I'm too used to using mono movement teams in most modes.

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41 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Next duo unit - Gatrie and Tree with Skirt

LMAO I'd actually build that! XD That Shinon line is the funniest thing in this series imo.

26 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

 I had a feeling you'd like him 😉 Sylvain was another that immediately came to mind since he's a personal favorite, the Lance of Ruin is awesome, and I remembered you linking him, but I can't imagine him being a demote. Perceval was basically everything I wanted out of a cav, dual phased mixed bulk unit that makes use of all his stats, but there's no way I'll ever be able to +10 him. So really anyone that's basically a 4* lite version of him would be a dream. Essentially cav Echidna or Norne.

I ADORE Sylvain. I love him as much as I love Frederick and about as much as I love Ike. He's effectively my third fav with those two. So hella yes I really want Lance of Ruin horse Sylvain. But I wouldn't say him being 5 star only is guaranteed. His summer version is a demote, so you never know.

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30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Huh. I should do that. That sounds way more fun than Guard Bearing.

 

5 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

That's actually an amazing combo. I've been using Hel quite a lot these days and I didn't think about this. Even at neutral with all flowers and Spd/Res Solo she can tank one mage or two. When does Eir return (quite the Irony an Eir will die to make Hel stronger, IS did or on purpose) ? I need to make this happen (I hate guard bearing). 

BRB, I'm going to tape my mouth shut for the rest of the day because otherwise I'll never truly learn when I seriously need to keep my mouth shut.

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46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Armors could just stand there and tank for ages.

 

Huh. I should do that. That sounds way more fun than Guard Bearing.

 

 

I'd recommend Bracing stance/Swift stance 3 or something like that on the A, Mystic boost B, C slot is flexible, but pulse/panic/atk smoke are all fair game and Spd/Res solo on the Seal 
Spd or Res asset would be great. 

If I had the money, I'd make a Cav Line with Rallying Hel in the back, she rallies, gets left in the back. High probability that the Red tome on the map gets sniped by the cav line. Have an unkillable unit in the back. 

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29 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But I wouldn't say him being 5 star only is guaranteed. His summer version is a demote, so you never know.

Good point. That is very true. I have no clue what his average stats are in 3h, especially since mine went cav > dark knight > wyvern lord, but a current gen version of Ares would be a dream. Good stats, great weapon, solid starting kit, and easy to merge.

 

8 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

If I had the money, I'd make a Cav Line with Rallying Hel in the back, she rallies, gets left in the back. High probability that the Red tome on the map gets sniped by the cav line. Have an unkillable unit in the back. 

This seems cruel. I like it.

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1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

Good point. That is very true. I have no clue what his average stats are in 3h, especially since mine went cav > dark knight > wyvern lord, but a current gen version of Ares would be a dream. Good stats, great weapon, solid starting kit, and easy to merge.

It seems to depend on the class you pick for him. I always made him go Great Knight, so he had high Str and Def, but low Spd and Res. His Def was through the roof in my VW playthrough, and his Spd was actually decent. He wasn't as good in my AM run unfortunately. But that VW Sylvain holy shit he was insane. Could tank any physical attack with ease, one-shot and almost one-shot stuff, and occasionally he doubled things. He also took out Nemesis for me with a nice critical hit. Haha.

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3 hours ago, Anacybele said:

It seems to depend on the class you pick for him. I always made him go Great Knight, so he had high Str and Def, but low Spd and Res. His Def was through the roof in my VW playthrough, and his Spd was actually decent. He wasn't as good in my AM run unfortunately. But that VW Sylvain holy shit he was insane. Could tank any physical attack with ease, one-shot and almost one-shot stuff, and occasionally he doubled things. He also took out Nemesis for me with a nice critical hit. Haha.

Yeah, 3 Houses made it a bit tricky to pin down characters' growths just from a playthrough or two. My Sylvain was kind of mediocre as a dark knight, but based on reclassing, that seems more like it's just dark knight not having very good bases. When I switched him to the dracoknight, he was a beast. He was strong, had solid defense, surprisingly fast, and even had good res thanks to his time in the magic using classes. It's probably a completely baseless assumption, but I got the impression he had fairly solid strength regardless of class path, so I could see him being a heavy-hitter. I am curious what the effects would be. It + ruined sky have effective damage and just a buttload of might. A simple one could be DB + effective damage. It'd be strong, but seems almost a bit tame.

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11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Yeah, 3 Houses made it a bit tricky to pin down characters' growths just from a playthrough or two. My Sylvain was kind of mediocre as a dark knight, but based on reclassing, that seems more like it's just dark knight not having very good bases. When I switched him to the dracoknight, he was a beast. He was strong, had solid defense, surprisingly fast, and even had good res thanks to his time in the magic using classes. It's probably a completely baseless assumption, but I got the impression he had fairly solid strength regardless of class path, so I could see him being a heavy-hitter. I am curious what the effects would be. It + ruined sky have effective damage and just a buttload of might. A simple one could be DB + effective damage. It'd be strong, but seems almost a bit tame.

Yeah, the wyvern line is pretty good in general too, so that's not too surprising. I really want Lance of Ruin Sylvain to also get Ruined Sky as a special in Heroes, but I dunno if IS is gonna go that far, and if they did, he probably would be 5 star exclusive. But at least he'd be a pretty good unit.

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1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, the wyvern line is pretty good in general too, so that's not too surprising. I really want Lance of Ruin Sylvain to also get Ruined Sky as a special in Heroes, but I dunno if IS is gonna go that far, and if they did, he probably would be 5 star exclusive. But at least he'd be a pretty good unit.

Yeah, they seem to be pretty reluctant to put non-weapon personal skills on non-premium units. They only did it for BK, Arvis, Arden, Anniversary Marth, and Anniversary Minerva, and in addition to the non-anniversary ones being a long time ago, none of them are in the regular summoning pool.

They also seem to have gone back to being reluctant to put even personal weapons on main pool demotes. They did several in early 2018, but in the 2+ years since Ares, they've only done it for the two laguz and Altena.

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1 minute ago, Othin said:

Yeah, they seem to be pretty reluctant to put non-weapon personal skills on non-premium units. They only did it for BK, Arvis, Arden, Anniversary Marth, and Anniversary Minerva, and in addition to the non-anniversary ones being a long time ago, none of them are in the regular summoning pool.

They also seem to have gone back to being reluctant to put even personal weapons on main pool demotes. They did several in early 2018, but in the 2+ years since Ares, they've only done it for the two laguz and Altena.

Yeah, free and demote units have gotten worse. 😕 Greedy IS wants players to spend money to get the good units...

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5 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

I'd recommend Bracing stance/Swift stance 3 or something like that on the A, Mystic boost B, C slot is flexible, but pulse/panic/atk smoke are all fair game and Spd/Res solo on the Seal 
Spd or Res asset would be great.

I'm currently thinking of keeping Distant Counter and using her with full Ward Fliers support as a player-controlled unit.

In the hands of the AI... I think Ward Fliers stacking will still work, considering my current Aether Raids defense team is already a flier ball. Baiting her is still dangerous since it's hard to kill her in one round of combat, and attacking into her is difficult with that many stacks of Ward Fliers.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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8 hours ago, Anacybele said:

They score low in arena and aren't as useful in some infernal and abyssal maps because of the lower BST

Just curious, what made you think this? In my experience, the old combo of LynHardt+2 dancers still crushes most Abyssal maps to this very day, 2+ years later. Admittedly some maps might take tinkering on what support seals to use, but the base builds of the clearing cavalry usually don't change much.

If you meant only the lesser used cavalry units and not cavalry as a whole, then I see your point.

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34 minutes ago, Azuni said:

Just curious, what made you think this? In my experience, the old combo of LynHardt+2 dancers still crushes most Abyssal maps to this very day, 2+ years later. Admittedly some maps might take tinkering on what support seals to use, but the base builds of the clearing cavalry usually don't change much.

If you meant only the lesser used cavalry units and not cavalry as a whole, then I see your point.

Lesser used cavalry, yeah. Reinhardt and Brave Lyn are pretty much the only ones who are really good.

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I dont think Cavs need much help. Infact i think they are in a good spot. Cavs per say dont suck the personal weapon of most Cav units suck.
Besides i am of the mindset that each class is its pros and cons depending on the mode. Its clear that Arena is Armor heaven because of the way points are calculated

meanwhile Cavs excell at AR Defense. I mean Cav-Line is still a thing and every mixed AR Defense map uses 1-2 Cavs in the forms of Leif Veronica Eliwood etc. Heck i even see sometimes Brave Lyn hit and run tactics on Offense.

Cavs are also good in the new mode they introduced due to their mobility, meanwhile Armors suck gigantic in that mode.

It really all boils down to personal weapon and stat spread. Hrid for example is still an excellent cav unit due to his stat Spread and Personal weapon. Meanwhile Leo is garbage because his Personal weapon and refine focuses on something that is nearly inexistent unless you are called Brave Ike: Defensiv battle.

And everyone that thinks Ophelia is opressiv: yes she can be much, but i dont even need to enter combat against her to dimish her offensiv power. Pulse Smoke cripples Ophelia to hell.

If anything Lysethea is  way more oppressiv with Times pulse, because Pulse Smoke doenst work when she runs a 2 cooldown special.

You cant make all Cavs good just as you cant make all armorers infantrys etc excell at everything. But to say that all Cavs suck is an really not the truth there are couple of excellent cavs existing that are very good various/some modes:

Regular Eliwood (GF frontline or Distant Counter Tank your pick!)
Brave Eliwood (GF frontline and Dragon Killer)
Legendary Eliwood (Excellent Support)
Hrid (Dualphase unit that is excellent)
LetheNewYear (excellent Dualphase unit)
Seliph (monstrious Enemy phase unit)
Sirius
VeronicaPirate (excellen tDualphase unit)
Ares (fantastic Vantage user)
The Reinhardt! Is still very good
Kaden (excellent support)
Leif, i mean comon there needs no introduction for this
Roderick
Brave Roy
Brave Lyn
Brave Veronica

There are others that are still ok, and you dont see most of those above, because most are 5 Star exclusiv and Cavs really get the most out of merged stats in my opinion.

Now I am not saying that every of the above units is totally viable on every mode, but they sure arent bad.
 

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Armours are the least worst movement type to face in the game. Even one as strong as Surtr is incredibly predictable, and easy to out-manœuvré. Cavalry is the worst movement type to face, for the same reason Azura is the worst dancer (the worst type of unit) to face.

Ranged cavalry in particular have always been, and will always be, excellent. If you think Reinhardt, Brave Lyn or Legendary Leif are bad units because they don’t have high BST, you’re.

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