I really hope Echoes' direction of new characters are the standard for future remakes than Shadow Dragon + New Mystery's.

[Alastor15243]

If they were to add more characters to the Tellius games, one thing I'd want them to do is address a rather unfortunate problem with Ike.

See, in Radiant Dawn, the Greil Mercenaries consists of... nothing but the original members. There isn't a single member of the team that wasn't hand-picked by Greil. None of the allies he made along the way in the war decided to stick with him when it was all over, and he hasn't recruited even a single new member directly in the three years since the war ended. Which is absurd, because he clearly needs more members. It's implied that unlike his father who always kept people guarding the fort until they were forced to leave entirely, when Ike goes off to do mercenary work, he leaves his entire fort unattended, just relying on his sheer reputation to keep people from robbing him or taking it over while he's gone. Also the implication that he's just *maintaining* the legacy of his father rather than adding to it in any way is pretty frustrating, and the lack of new recruits makes it feel like the writers haven't thought at all about how much can change in three years.

If they were to add new characters, I'd want some of them to join up with the Greil Mercenaries, either as new PoR characters who decided to stick around, or new RD characters Ike recruited in the three years he's been a legendary badass war hero.

[LightingChaos]

bros i just want the tellius games to get more love

[Mylady]

On 8/16/2020 at 5:57 PM, Sunwoo said:

As for me, I really hope future remakes don't add in any new playable characters, unless they already exist somewhere in that universe. Like ... if a hypothetical FE6 remake wanted to incorporate Lyn into the world properly and made her recruitable in Sacae, I'd be more okay with it than if they added some random new character who never existed before to be there for whatever reason. FE4 in particular would be pretty hard to fit a new character into. For the most part, the games really don't "need" any new playable characters because only a few of them are integral to the plot, and adding more plot-important characters just makes things needlessly messy. And I don't see the point in adding a new plot irrelevant character either.

Lyn can be Roy or Lilina's mother so it wouldn't be possible since their mothers are said to be dead. Well, at least Roy's mother. 

Honestly I don't think the future games need new characters, except maybe the other Cipher characters via DLC like in Shadows of Valentia, I would welcome it very much.

 Fe6 could add Tiana and Al via DLC since the game have a sword and staff with their names so why not, and maaaybe an avatar being Mark's child but I don't think avatar is necessary, and as far I know this community, some fans would riot. Sacred Stones could add a bard and one or two new units IF they decide to make Eirika and Ephraim routes simultaneously playable, otherwise new units aren't needed. As for Arachnea, proper supports would do wonders for that game. It would be hell to pay all the voice acting because the cast is gigantic but if they ever remake Marth games again, this is the first thing they need to focus and plus avoid adding any new character. 

 

New units were created to be in  SOV because the cast was relatively small and story was barebones so they needed new NPCs to tie the plot, even if it wasn't done perfecly. Jugdral, Elibe and Tellius have already gigantic and solid casts that just need some fleshing out. Sacred Stones has a smaller cast but it's ok as it is as well. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Mylady

[Samz707]

3 hours ago, Mylady said:

Lyn can be Roy or Lilina's mother so it wouldn't be possible since their mothers are said to be dead. Well, at least Roy's mother. 

Honestly I don't think the future games need new characters, except maybe the other Cipher characters via DLC like in Shadows of Valentia, I would welcome it very much.

 Fe6 could add Tiana and Al via DLC since the game have a sword and staff with their names so why not, and maaaybe an avatar being Mark's child but I don't think avatar is necessary, and as far I know this community, some fans would riot. Sacred Stones could add a bard and one or two new units IF they decide to make Eirika and Ephraim routes simultaneously playable, otherwise new units aren't needed. As for Arachnea, proper supports would do wonders for that game. It would be hell to pay all the voice acting because the cast is gigantic but if they ever remake Marth games again, this is the first thing they need to focus and plus avoid adding any new character. 

 

New units were created to be in  SOV because the cast was relatively small and story was barebones so they needed new NPCs to tie the plot, even if it wasn't done perfecly. Jugdral, Elibe and Tellius have already gigantic and solid casts that just need some fleshing out. Sacred Stones has a smaller cast but it's ok as it is as well. 

They could always I guess have Lyn dead if she's Roy's mother then. (or change it.)

Personally I would like a few FE7 cameos but only a small handful and/or only if you link a save from an FE7 remake. (So playing without any save-link stuff basically is just FE6 with little-to-no references to FE7 aside from the bare minimum of anything from FE7 that really should have been mentioned in FE6, maybe even go an extreme route and FE7 is treated like it doesn't exist like the original FE6 on a fresh playthrough if you don't link a save.)

But yeah no Avatar please, I'm already scared for an Fe7 remake that Mark is just going to become Robin 2.0, maybe even complete with a terrible chosen one/incredibly important backstory (instead of the almost nothing of the original.) and Lyn is going to be New Lyn who's practically yandere for Mark, Keep Mark out of any main-game FE6 stuff. (I'd really only want Mark to come back for some DLC that's him getting involved in trying to stop Bern's invasions at the start and even then I'd actually want Mark to die in it, such as playing the defense of Castle Araphen with Oswin, since apparently according to an FE6 novel he died at this battle and Hector with both Mark and Oswin being long dead before Roy arrives for instance.)

For the most part, I'd like an FE6 remake with Fe7 references to actually more lean into the sorta foregone conclusion stuff in FE7, like if you link a FE7 save where Lucius survives and opens up the Orphanage, he's now explicitly the head of the orphanage that got killed in FE6, have Oswin dead in Castle Araphen, play up the fact that a good chunk of the FE7 cast is dead/highly likely to be dead and have any still alive be clearly effected by this. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Samz707

[Etria]

1 hour ago, Samz707 said:

They could always I guess have Lyn dead if Roy's her mother then. (or change it.)

Now that's a plottwist I didn't see coming...

[Samz707]

5 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Tana said:

Now that's a plottwist I didn't see coming...

Oh I'm a idiot.

[vanguard333]

I don't really think Shadow Dragon and Shadows of Valentia are really comparable in this regard, as both had very different goals:

Shadow Dragon was very deliberately kept very retro. The barebones script was virtually untouched, the graphics were updated but still designed to look old-school, etc. And this is even reflected with the new characters, who have about as much characterization as the old characters did in Shadow Dragon: enough to give an understanding of who they are, but really not much beyond that. 

Shadows of Valentia, however, plays like a game very much torn on whether it wanted to be an updated retro game (like Ocarina of Time 3D) or a full overhaul that could stand alongside brand-new games (like Final Fantasy 7 Remake). These two clashing goals can also be seen in the new characters: they're added, they're given a lot of characterization like they would in a game that's a full overhaul, but their actual relevance and impact is minimal, like new characters in an updated retro. 

Berkut and Ferdinand, when it comes down to it, add nothing to the plot as antagonists; the story carries on the exact same way it did before, and no amount of heavy characterization or good voice acting changes that, and they're lack of impact makes them come across as weakly-written antagonists, despite the amount of character writing put into them. Rinea has it even worse because her character revolves around Berkut. 

Similarly, Conrad is given some impact early on as a mysterious knight who bails Celica out of certain situations, but not only does this alteration reduce Celica's agency in these situations, his impact is gone the moment the mask is removed, and it renders his addition just as needless plot-wise as Berkut and Ferdinand, but on the heroes' side.

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I prefer how Shadow Dragon handled being a remake, as at least it knew what it wanted to be. Shadows of Valentia doesn't have that, and it suffers for it, especially in the area of its characters. The more I think about the characters added to Shadows of Valentia, the more I think about how much that effort could instead have gone towards refining the story and the pre-existing characters, and that's not a good sign. I don't think about that at all when thinking about Shadow Dragon. 

[Seazas]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I don't really think Shadow Dragon and Shadows of Valentia are really comparable in this regard, as both had very different goals:

Shadow Dragon was very deliberately kept very retro. The barebones script was virtually untouched, the graphics were updated but still designed to look old-school, etc. And this is even reflected with the new characters, who have about as much characterization as the old characters did in Shadow Dragon: enough to give an understanding of who they are, but really not much beyond that. 

Shadows of Valentia, however, plays like a game very much torn on whether it wanted to be an updated retro game (like Ocarina of Time 3D) or a full overhaul that could stand alongside brand-new games (like Final Fantasy 7 Remake). These two clashing goals can also be seen in the new characters: they're added, they're given a lot of characterization like they would in a game that's a full overhaul, but their actual relevance and impact is minimal, like new characters in an updated retro. 

Berkut and Ferdinand, when it comes down to it, add nothing to the plot as antagonists; the story carries on the exact same way it did before, and no amount of heavy characterization or good voice acting changes that, and they're lack of impact makes them come across as weakly-written antagonists, despite the amount of character writing put into them. Rinea has it even worse because her character revolves around Berkut. 

Similarly, Conrad is given some impact early on as a mysterious knight who bails Celica out of certain situations, but not only does this alteration reduce Celica's agency in these situations, his impact is gone the moment the mask is removed, and it renders his addition just as needless plot-wise as Berkut and Ferdinand, but on the heroes' side.

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I prefer how Shadow Dragon handled being a remake, as at least it knew what it wanted to be. Shadows of Valentia doesn't have that, and it suffers for it, especially in the area of its characters. The more I think about the characters added to Shadows of Valentia, the more I think about how much that effort could instead have gone towards refining the story and the pre-existing characters, and that's not a good sign. I don't think about that at all when thinking about Shadow Dragon. 

I guess but it further makes the Shadow Dragon OCs pointless if they are just as barebones and don't add shit to anyone else. They also majorly contribute to the Archanean cast bloat problem and further makes their inclusion worthless. Especially when they're locked behind optional gaidens that require you to deliberately kill units. Only like Nagi's a justifiable exception, yet that option was retconned to never happen in New Mystery. Further making Nagi's inclusion just... pointless.

Don't get me started on New Mystery, who adds an entire support system but fucking wastes it by having the majority of many characters' only support center around Kris, a random OC that adds nothing of value. It's extremely inexcusable since that game was no longer being retro.

Also... nah, Fernand and Berkut may not be as important as Duma or Rudolf. But they have their impacts. Berkut actually fleshes out a life of a Rigelian general and is confirmed to foil Alm. Fernand is literally a major founder of a Deliverance and added so much to Clive, Clair and the Deliverance as a whole (DLC further fleshing this out). And Conrad fleshes out Celica's past, gives Halcyon more purpose since he raised and trained Conrad and even provides a canon origin of where Sirius' mask came from.

Can't say the same for the remake characters. They are entirely self contained, shallow and add nothing to nobody. Not even Marth, the main character gets any foil or significant characterization from them. Instead, Marth got a boatload of characterization from the actual story in Shadow Dragon than the mediocre new additions he interacts with. All the OCs did was help be apart of the issue of cast bloat. The only one who came close to adding more to a character was Norne with Draug. Until that awful game FE12 regressed her into a Kris cheerleader.

[vanguard333]

11 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I guess but it further makes the Shadow Dragon OCs pointless if they are just as barebones and don't add shit to anyone else. They also majorly contribute to the Archanean cast bloat problem and further makes their inclusion worthless. Especially when they're locked behind optional gaidens that require you to deliberately kill units. Only like Nagi's a justifiable exception, yet that option was retconned to never happen in New Mystery. Further making Nagi's inclusion just... pointless.

Don't get me started on New Mystery, who adds an entire support system but fucking wastes it by having the majority of many characters' only support center around Kris, a random OC that adds nothing of value. It's extremely inexcusable since that game was no longer being retro.

Also... nah, Fernand and Berkut may not be as important as Duma or Rudolf. But they have their impacts. Berkut actually fleshes out a life of a Rigelian general and is confirmed to foil Alm. Fernand is literally a major founder of a Deliverance and added so much to Clive, Clair and the Deliverance as a whole (DLC further fleshing this out). And Conrad fleshes out Celica's past, gives Halcyon more purpose since he raised and trained Conrad and even provides a canon origin of where Sirius' mask came from.

Can't say the same for the remake characters. They are entirely self contained, shallow and add nothing to nobody. Not even Marth, the main character gets any foil or significant characterization from them. Instead, Marth got a boatload of characterization from the actual story in Shadow Dragon than the mediocre new additions he interacts with. All the OCs did was help be apart of the issue of cast bloat. The only one who came close to adding more to a character was Norne with Draug. Until that awful game FE12 regressed her into a Kris cheerleader.

What I'm trying to say is that Shadows of Valentia's direction of new characters is far from flawless, and, while I personally hope any new remake (like a genealogy remake) doesn't use either game except as an example of what not to do, at least Shadow Dragon knew what it was trying to accomplish and carried it out. 

Personally, for a remake of something like Genealogy, I want to see them go all-out; give us a complete overhaul that understands the source material while bringing it up to date and able to stand alongside the new games, and I want any remake characters to follow this, with the same amount of characterization and relevance as the original characters are given in the overhaul so that they blend right in; they add to the game and seem as if they were always there. Some of the Shadow Dragon remake characters did blend right in, while most of the Shadows of Valentia remake characters stood out as add-ons. 

[Seazas]

12 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

What I'm trying to say is that Shadows of Valentia's direction of new characters is far from flawless, and, while I personally hope any new remake (like a genealogy remake) doesn't use either game except as an example of what not to do, at least Shadow Dragon knew what it was trying to accomplish and carried it out. 

Personally, for a remake of something like Genealogy, I want to see them go all-out; give us a complete overhaul that understands the source material while bringing it up to date and able to stand alongside the new games, and I want any remake characters to follow this, with the same amount of characterization and relevance as the original characters are given in the overhaul so that they blend right in; they add to the game and seem as if they were always there. Some of the Shadow Dragon remake characters did blend right in, while most of the Shadows of Valentia remake characters stood out as add-ons. 

It's not flawless but it's better than Archanea's approach. Fernand and Berkut actually impact and give a lot more to others. Nobodies like Horace and Frey don't really do that and even have a lack of significant characterization. Adding new characters are pointless if they fall flat and don't at the very least flesh others out. Others who really needed it.

[vanguard333]

On 8/26/2020 at 6:49 AM, Alastor15243 said:

If they were to add more characters to the Tellius games, one thing I'd want them to do is address a rather unfortunate problem with Ike.

See, in Radiant Dawn, the Greil Mercenaries consists of... nothing but the original members. There isn't a single member of the team that wasn't hand-picked by Greil. None of the allies he made along the way in the war decided to stick with him when it was all over, and he hasn't recruited even a single new member directly in the three years since the war ended. Which is absurd, because he clearly needs more members. It's implied that unlike his father who always kept people guarding the fort until they were forced to leave entirely, when Ike goes off to do mercenary work, he leaves his entire fort unattended, just relying on his sheer reputation to keep people from robbing him or taking it over while he's gone. Also the implication that he's just *maintaining* the legacy of his father rather than adding to it in any way is pretty frustrating, and the lack of new recruits makes it feel like the writers haven't thought at all about how much can change in three years.

Um... are you forgetting Mia? Sure, Greil rescued her when she got captured, but she wasn't exactly "hand-picked" by Greil and she was only part of the Greil Mercenaries for maybe 20 minutes before Greil's death. She's not one of the original members, but she does remain a member of the Greil Mercenaries and still is one in Radiant Dawn. 

 

6 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It's not flawless but it's better than Archanea's approach. Fernand and Berkut actually impact and give a lot more to others. Nobodies like Horace and Frey don't really do that and even have a lack of significant characterization. Adding new characters are pointless if they fall flat and don't at the very least flesh others out. Others who really needed it.

Fernand and Berkut have zero impact on the plot whatsoever; remove them and events can proceed unaltered. You say Berkut acts as a foil to Alm, but that's redundant as there's already an antagonistic foil to Alm (or at least there would be if the writing had been consistent): Rudolf. So, Berkut doesn't even do any fleshing out that could've (and probably should've) been done by an original character. 

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Um... are you forgetting Mia? Sure, Greil rescued her when she got captured, but she wasn't exactly "hand-picked" by Greil and she was only part of the Greil Mercenaries for maybe 20 minutes before Greil's death. She's not one of the original members, but she does remain a member of the Greil Mercenaries and still is one in Radiant Dawn. 

 

Fernand and Berkut have zero impact on the plot whatsoever; remove them and events can proceed unaltered. You say Berkut acts as a foil to Alm, but that's redundant as there's already an antagonistic foil to Alm (or at least there would be if the writing had been consistent): Rudolf. So, Berkut doesn't even do any fleshing out that could've (and probably should've) been done by an original character. 

Nope. Rudolf is just his father and died for the sake of Valentia. It was never directly stated nor shown that Rudolf foils Alm, not by Kaga nor the current Echoes devs. Alm and Rudolf even share the exact same ideals. While Berkut is completely different and foils Alm fantastically. In Gaiden there is no other character that can foil Alm as a villain. Even if they aren't as relevant they still ADD something to the world and add more to other characters. Better than being irrelevant AND adding nothing like what Horace and the other Archanean OCs do.

[Alastor15243]

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Um... are you forgetting Mia? Sure, Greil rescued her when she got captured, but she wasn't exactly "hand-picked" by Greil and she was only part of the Greil Mercenaries for maybe 20 minutes before Greil's death. She's not one of the original members, but she does remain a member of the Greil Mercenaries and still is one in Radiant Dawn. 

No, I haven't forgotten Mia. But it's still thanks to Greil that she's a member. Ike hasn't been responsible for recruiting even a single member of the mercenary company he leads, and in the three years since the war ended, the company roster has remained bizarrely static and unchanged, which is actually a consistent problem with every aspect of the characterization of the Greil Mercenaries. Almost nothing has changed about anyone in three whole years.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Alastor15243

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

No, I haven't forgotten Mia. But it's still thanks to Greil that she's a member. Ike hasn't been responsible for recruiting even a single member of the mercenary company he leads, and in the three years since the war ended, the company roster has remained bizarrely static and unchanged, which is actually a consistent problem with every aspect of the characterization of the Greil Mercenaries. Almost nothing has changed about anyone in three whole years.

Oh, that's what you mean. I can see that; I suppose the writers were probably trying to avoid having to abruptly introduce a bunch of new characters when Radiant Dawn is already packed with almost more new characters than it can actually manage. 

10 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope. Rudolf is just his father and died for the sake of Valentia. It was never directly stated nor shown that Rudolf foils Alm, not by Kaga nor the current Echoes devs. Alm and Rudolf even share the exact same ideals. While Berkut is completely different and foils Alm fantastically. In Gaiden there is no other character that can foil Alm as a villain. Even if they aren't as relevant they still ADD something to the world and add more to other characters. Better than being irrelevant AND adding nothing like what Horace and the other Archanean OCs do.

Oh, boy. Where do I begin?

"Just his father and died for the sake of Valentia" That is seriously oversimplifying it and also highlighting one of the big problems with Echoes' writing. I'm really tired, so I'm going to quote myself from an old topic about this that was created by @Jotari called: "Rudolf was Meant to be a Villain Folks" The internal quote is something Jotari said that I replied to with the external quote:

Quote

Quote

And Rudolf's appearance makes people think "Man, that guy was an idiot who got a shit tonne of people killed with his good intentions," as opposed to what I believe was the intended reaction "wow, so his intentions were sort of noble, but he went about them in the most heartless and inconsiderate way possible."

Recall, even in the minimalist Gaiden script, Rudolf introduces himself in a cordial way to Alm and nobly declares his men to stand down once he's dead. Yet after the battle, when Alm knows Rudolf is his father, he still calls Rudolf a horrible person. Like Alvis and Sephiran, Rudolf is meant to be a man of contrast. Someone who's goals or personality is laudable, but who's actions are despicable. Everything Rudolf does is also in line with Duma's philosophy. Strength is everything. If humans can beat the very gods they worship, then it will prove they are strong enough to weather any conflict. I found in the original, it was ambiguous whether or not it was even entirely Rudolf's plan alone, or if he was working with Duma. After all, Duma (who isn't crazy in Gaiden), praises Alm for defeating him and proving his strength.

So to put it succinctly, Rudolf's plan depends, at its very core, on Alm being able to single-handedly take on the armies of Rigel. It depends on him being the fated son of destiny that can accomplish anything. It depends on a crap tonne of people dying through no fault of their own. Because, at it's core, the plan is working off might makes right mentality. If the plan fails, then it deserves to fail because Alm and humanity (and the player), just aren't good enough to conquer the gods. It's not meant to be viewed as a smart plan, or a good plan. The fact that it succeeds is meant to be uncomfortable. It's meant to show that while this view point of the world is evil, there is logic to it. A cold hearted logic that we as a species might some day need to survive. But a logic that also isn't the be all and end all of our lives. A cold hearted logic that requires compassion to truly succeed. Because Alm didn't defeat Duma by just stabbing him in the face, he did it by standing beside Celica and abusing that 100% crit ratio! That, my friends, is gameplay and story integration.

 

Ah; now the "But in their quest for power, the Rigelians had let their hearts grow cold and numb to all kindness" line over a picture of Rudolf finally makes sense to me...

Honestly, I think you're both right, but I think the problem had less to do with appearance, and more to do with the writing. One problem with SoV was that it had topics and things like these in mind, but then did a really bad job presenting them and conveying them to the player. This goes for almost all the main characters, and Rudolf and Alm are no exceptions.

After Rudolf's death, we find Mycen telling Alm about Rudolf's plan, in such a way that it conveys, "This is the only way it could've happened, now stop crying and fight Duma." And Alm just... takes it. I get that he's grieving, but he's blaming himself without taking anything from it. If they wanted to convey that Alm and Rudolf are counterpoints to each other, then Mycen's explanation should have been laced with Rudolf's viewpoint, and then Alm, after a moment to cry, should have called the old men out on their actions; slowly starting to disagree and saying that they're wrong; that Alm has only gotten as far as he has because of the people alongside him, and called him out on the fact that Rudolf's and Rigel's obsession with strength and the next battle left them blind to both compassion and to alternative actions. Alm should have called them out on the fact that their intentions were good, but their actions were horrible, and that he is not going to lead like that.

For a bonus, they should've also had Alm have a bit of self-reflection. It may have been Rudolf's plan, but he jumped right into it; thinking only of the next battle; a flaw shared by both father and son, and, as you (Jotari) have in your signature, was supposed to be Alm's flaw in Echoes. But he never gets called out on it; Celica just yells at him in the reunion scene in a way that makes her come off as angry and irrational, rather than as a clash of both of them being dead-set on their respective approaches, and the big scene that should really have driven the point that he's only thinking of the next battle, the moment where he learns he just killed his father, he's just going, "No! I just killed my father!" And no one learns anything from it.

Rudolf is supposed to be what Alm would've become if not for his friends; particularly Celica. But the game fails to convey this. Alm doesn't learn, he's shown as foreign to Rudolf's way of thinking rather than realizing how they are a counterpoint. The point would have been delivered so much better if we had Alm introspect, and realize at these important moments where he and Rudolf were very similar, and where they differ.

These moments in the game that are supposed to convey the philosophy of each character, where it's right, and where it's wrong, often fail to show what they're trying to show, thanks to flaws in the writing for both the plot and the characters. And I think this is the biggest reason why Rudolf comes off as an idiot rather than a villain. Thanks to the flaws in these moments, Alm comes off as "supposedly perfect and special according to the game", Celica comes off as "an irrational idiot", Rudolf comes off as an "idiot with a flimsy plan", Mycen comes off as "the world's most flat ninja grandpa; appearing and disappearing anywhere when the plot calls for it and overall not really sounding like he cares about Alm at all", and Jedah comes off as "a moustache-twirling villain" rather than a religious fanatic resigned to Duma's madness and unable to conceive of a world without Duma (in other words, something of a counterpoint to Celica). 

As for appearance, the fact that SoV Rudolf further resembles Walhart should have helped convey the point that Rudolf is just as much a victim of Duma's philosophy taken to the extreme as every other major character in Rigel, if not more so. Walhart's big failing was that he could only see in terms of strength, conquest, and the next battle, just like Rudolf. But it doesn't, for those story reasons that I mentioned. 

Basically, Shadows of Valentia is a thematic and character mess of a narrative that couldn't decide what story it was actually wanting to tell. 

[Seazas]

28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh, that's what you mean. I can see that; I suppose the writers were probably trying to avoid having to abruptly introduce a bunch of new characters when Radiant Dawn is already packed with almost more new characters than it can actually manage. 

Oh, boy. Where do I begin?

"Just his father and died for the sake of Valentia" That is seriously oversimplifying it and also highlighting one of the big problems with Echoes' writing. I'm really tired, so I'm going to quote myself from an old topic about this that was created by @Jotari called: "Rudolf was Meant to be a Villain Folks" The internal quote is something Jotari said that I replied to with the external quote:

Basically, Shadows of Valentia is a thematic and character mess of a narrative that couldn't decide what story it was actually wanting to tell. 

Rudolf doesn't foil Alm. He definitely has major themes but he does not foil Alm and the entire "thematic inconsistency" regarding Alm is people getting caught up in their headcanons. Like Alm representing Duma MUST mean Alm had to be some aggressive asshole or some bullshit.

[Ottservia]

33 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Rudolf doesn't foil Alm. He definitely has major themes but he does not foil Alm and the entire "thematic inconsistency" regarding Alm is people getting caught up in their headcanons. Like Alm representing Duma MUST mean Alm had to be some aggressive asshole or some bullshit.

I mean if Alm wasn’t supposed to represent the flaws of Duma’s ideals why else does the narrative force him to kill his own father? I mean like that moment is so obviously meant to be a moment of narrative punishment for him where he is punished for the flaws in his ideals that which he is supposed to grow from. If that’s not what that moment represents? What does it represent? Cause if my interpretation is correct that’s a thematic inconsistency because before that moment what does Alm really do to warrant such a narrative punishment? He doesn’t contradict himself nor does he take any actions that the narrative would deem thematically incorrect at least as far as I can tell anyway. So like what is it really punishing him for? 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Ottservia

[Seazas]

22 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean if Alm wasn’t supposed to represent the flaws of Duma’s ideals why else does the narrative force him to kill his own father? I mean like that moment is so obviously meant to be a moment of narrative punishment for him where he is punished for the flaws in his ideals that which he is supposed to grow from. If that’s not what that moment represents? What does it represent? Cause if my interpretation is correct that’s a thematic inconsistency because before that moment what does Alm really do to warrant such a narrative punishment? He doesn’t contradict himself nor does he take any actions that the narrative would deem thematically incorrect at least as far as I can tell anyway. So like what is it really punishing him for? 

Alm firmly represents Duma's strength and beliefs regarding humanity. That's the only thing official in game stated by Duma. Him "representing Duma's flaws" when Rigel already does that is just pure headcanon since there's nothing showing otherwise that Alm was meant to represent Rigel's flaws.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Seazas said:

Alm firmly represents Duma's strength and beliefs regarding humanity. That's the only thing official in game stated by Duma. Him "representing Duma's flaws" when Rigel already does that is just pure headcanon since there's nothing showing otherwise that Alm was meant to represent Rigel's flaws.

You didn’t answer my question. What is the thematic significance of Alm killing his father if not to showcase the flaws in his ideals? If that is the case what exact flaws is that moment punishing him for?

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You didn’t answer my question. What is the thematic significance of Alm killing his father if not to showcase the flaws in his ideals? If that is the case what exact flaws is that moment punishing him for?

The end of a era, the era of the gods. The whole thing was a gambit by Rudolf, after all. He seemingly embraced Duma's philosophy while conspiring to overthrow him and Mila. By backing Desaix and invading Zofia, with even some Rigelians questioning the whole thing, he would draw the ire of Valentia to himself. Become the fall guy, as it were. Between his actions and those of Lima, the people of Valentia would see just how bad is it to fall into the extremes of the dragons' doctrines. The deaths of both men were then meant to symbolize the death of the past as well, ushering into a future were they would not be bound by the will of the gods. That's basically it. He set up Alm to be the face of the new era, so the thematic comes from the new doing away with the old.

Also... is it really meant to be a punishment to Alm? Sure, he's his father but... he never really knew the guy. Only as the ruthless heartless conqueror Rudolf himself acted to keep the charade.

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The end of a era, the era of the gods. The whole thing was a gambit by Rudolf, after all. He seemingly embraced Duma's philosophy while conspiring to overthrow him and Mila. By backing Desaix and invading Zofia, with even some Rigelians questioning the whole thing, he would draw the ire of Valentia to himself. Become the fall guy, as it were. Between his actions and those of Lima, the people of Valentia would see just how bad is it to fall into the extremes of the dragons' doctrines. The deaths of both men were then meant to symbolize the death of the past as well, ushering into a future were they would not be bound by the will of the gods. That's basically it. He set up Alm to be the face of the new era, so the thematic comes from the new doing away with the old.

Also... is it really meant to be a punishment to Alm? Sure, he's his father but... he never really knew the guy. Only as the ruthless heartless conqueror Rudolf himself acted to keep the charade.

Exactly. Rudolf chose for this gambit to happen, not some thematic punishment for Alm. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh, that's what you mean. I can see that; I suppose the writers were probably trying to avoid having to abruptly introduce a bunch of new characters when Radiant Dawn is already packed with almost more new characters than it can actually manage. 

Oh, boy. Where do I begin?

"Just his father and died for the sake of Valentia" That is seriously oversimplifying it and also highlighting one of the big problems with Echoes' writing. I'm really tired, so I'm going to quote myself from an old topic about this that was created by @Jotari called: "Rudolf was Meant to be a Villain Folks" The internal quote is something Jotari said that I replied to with the external quote:

Basically, Shadows of Valentia is a thematic and character mess of a narrative that couldn't decide what story it was actually wanting to tell. 

Hey, someone's quoting from an old thread of mine. Maybe I'll jump into this convo *looks at the next few messages*. Nope. I know exactly where this is going and it's a big flat circle.

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The end of a era, the era of the gods. The whole thing was a gambit by Rudolf, after all. He seemingly embraced Duma's philosophy while conspiring to overthrow him and Mila. By backing Desaix and invading Zofia, with even some Rigelians questioning the whole thing, he would draw the ire of Valentia to himself. Become the fall guy, as it were. Between his actions and those of Lima, the people of Valentia would see just how bad is it to fall into the extremes of the dragons' doctrines. The deaths of both men were then meant to symbolize the death of the past as well, ushering into a future were they would not be bound by the will of the gods. That's basically it. He set up Alm to be the face of the new era, so the thematic comes from the new doing away with the old.

Also... is it really meant to be a punishment to Alm? Sure, he's his father but... he never really knew the guy. Only as the ruthless heartless conqueror Rudolf himself acted to keep the charade.

I would believe that if his death wasn’t treated as this tragic thing that could’ve been avoided cause that’s how it’s framed. If that moment truly were just as “the new doing away with the old” like you say then shouldn’t Alm be narratively rewarded for it not punished? Like okay don’t tell me it’s not supposed to be a narrative punishment for Alm because it obviously is otherwise it would not be framed as tragic as it is. Alm is distraught and grief stricken after he learns the truth. He’s quiet and even lashes out at friends and family. Hell it takes a lecture from Mycen to snap him out of his funk. If killing Rudolf was supposed to be in line with the themes of the story like you say then Alm would not be as emotionally distraught as he is as that doesn’t make any sense.
 

If a character succeeds in embracing the themes of the story then they are narratively rewarded for it. If a character goes against the themes of the story then they are narratively punished for it. That’s usually how it works. I dunno about you but I don’t think Alm being depressed and distraught over the death of the only true family he had is the narrative’s way of saying he’s right in what he did. If anything it’s a telltale sign he did the wrong thing otherwise he wouldn’t be suffering right now. So ask again what is he punished for exactly?

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would believe that if his death wasn’t treated as this tragic thing that could’ve been avoided cause that’s how it’s framed. If that moment truly were just as “the new doing away with the old” like you say then shouldn’t Alm be narratively rewarded for it not punished? Like okay don’t tell me it’s not supposed to be a narrative punishment for Alm because it obviously is otherwise it would not be framed as tragic as it is. Alm is distraught and grief stricken after he learns the truth. He’s quiet and even lashes out at friends and family. Hell it takes a lecture from Mycen to snap him out of his funk. If killing Rudolf was supposed to be in line with the themes of the story like you say then Alm would not be as emotionally distraught as he is as that doesn’t make any sense.
 

If a character succeeds in embracing the themes of the story then they are narratively rewarded for it. If a character goes against the themes of the story then they are narratively punished for it. That’s usually how it works. I dunno about you but I don’t think Alm being depressed and distraught over the death of the only true family he had is the narrative’s way of saying he’s right in what he did. If anything it’s a telltale sign he did the wrong thing otherwise he wouldn’t be suffering right now. So ask again what is he punished for exactly?

It makes perfect sense why Alm is distraught, he killed his father, a father he didn't even get to know. It'd be shit writing if Alm celebrated over killing his father and Rudolf's gambit ultimately lead to the success of Alm so... It's tragic but it exactly aligns with the plans Rudolf aimed. Alm killing him doesn't mean he represents Duma's flaws. That's ridiculous and entirely stringed off of headcanons and bad assumptions. It's not a "wrong thing" Alm did since he didn't have a choice, he didn't even KNOW Rudolf was his father until he was murdered. Doesn't mean Alm can't be sad lmao.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Seazas

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It makes perfect sense why Alm is distraught, he killed his father, a father he didn't even get to know. It'd be shit writing if Alm celebrated over killing his father and Rudolf's gambit ultimately lead to the success of Alm so... It's tragic but it exactly aligns with the plans Rudolf aimed. Alm killing him doesn't mean he represents Duma's flaws. That's ridiculous and entirely stringed off of headcanons and bad assumptions. It's not a "wrong thing" Alm did since he didn't have a choice, he didn't even KNOW Rudolf was his father until he was murdered. Doesn't mean Alm can't be sad lmao.

Thank you for completely missing the point of my argument 

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It makes perfect sense why Alm is distraught, he killed his father, a father he didn't even get to know. It'd be shit writing if Alm celebrated over killing his father and Rudolf's gambit ultimately lead to the success of Alm so... It's tragic but it exactly aligns with the plans Rudolf aimed. Alm killing him doesn't mean he represents Duma's flaws. That's ridiculous and entirely stringed off of headcanons and bad assumptions. It's not a "wrong thing" Alm did since he didn't have a choice, he didn't even KNOW Rudolf was his father until he was murdered. Doesn't mean Alm can't be sad lmao.

I don't think it'd be shit writing if Alm took Rudolf's death in it's stride. Rudolf is both a complete stranger for Alm and his enemy. Him reacting without guilt could have easily have been played off as "He may be your father, but he wasn't your daddy." For contrast, Robin isn't all that broken up about killing Validar as far as I recall. Killing one's father isn't an immediate "Character must be sad" narrative choice. You could make the character sad or you could make the character not sad, it's all about how you handle their perspective.

(yes, I said I wouldn't respond. Someone please help).

Edited August 29, 2020 by Jotari