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Seazas

I really hope Echoes' direction of new characters are the standard for future remakes than Shadow Dragon + New Mystery's.

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Shadow Dragon added 7 of them. Combine that with the 5 from New Mystery (not counting the returning Shadow Dragon OC characters, the BS FE characters, etc) and that's 11 of them total in the span of these two remakes. Which is ridiculous since Archanea's cast is already big enough. These new characters don't even flesh any of the others out, they're entirely self contained. The only one close to fleshing anyone out is Norne, and she becomes a Kris cheerleader. Not once does she mention Gordin and Draug in Heroes nor Fe12. Kris is even controversial and makes established scenes worse. 

Meanwhile Echoes only has 5 of them. And only 2 are playable. None of the OCs are self contained either outside of Rinea, and she's extremely minor in the plot and not playable at all.

Faye's apart of the starting group of Ram bois, Berkut is obvious, Fernand is a founder of the deliverance and helps give Clive, Clair and the others more story and conflict, and Conrad gives Halcyon more purpose and fleshed out Celica's past some more.

FE4/FE6 remake please don't let us down.

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Well, I don't think either are especially good examples.

 

Shadow Dragon's approach has nothing to do with quantity. No one in Archanea has a personality. Not just the new characters. They couldn't be bothered to improve Shadow Dragon's lack of writing for its remake, and I don't think future remakes will repeat.

 

SoV's new characters are a mixed bag. Faye is legit one of the worst characters in the entire franchise. Fernand is also awful. Though I will say that the additions of Conrad, Berkut, and Rinea did help the story.

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1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Well, I don't think either are especially good examples.

 

Shadow Dragon's approach has nothing to do with quantity. No one in Archanea has a personality. Not just the new characters. They couldn't be bothered to improve Shadow Dragon's lack of writing for its remake, and I don't think future remakes will repeat.

 

SoV's new characters are a mixed bag. Faye is legit one of the worst characters in the entire franchise. Fernand is also awful. Though I will say that the additions of Conrad, Berkut, and Rinea did help the story.

That isn't true, most Archanean characters have some personality if you dig deep enough. Problem is you have to dig deep, because the story has severe character tunnel vision. And that bit about not improving Shadow Dragon's writing is also wrong; they really cleaned up the script. It's just what I said about tunnel vision.

For SoV I think the opposite of Fernand and Rinea, the former develops several Zofian characters while the latter is a satellite to Berkut.

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7 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Faye is legit one of the worst characters in the entire franchise.

Let's not get crazy here. By now the bar for characters has been set so low that Faye compares favorably to most modern characters simply on virtue of actually being genuine friends with her romantic rival, rather then secretly plotting to murder her. Or trying to use a voodoo doll to force Alm to love her, or whatever.
Also the fact that during her support with Alm, she has to accept the fact that she and Alm will never be together. Which is more mature then any of the juvenile crap they have been putting out these past 10 years.
And no, I'm not saying it's good. The bar has just been set that low. Especially when it comes to love and romance.

 

In any case, all the new characters at best add nothing in the case of the Berkut gang or at worst actually detract from it, like Conrad. Faye is also technically inoffensive, but it's disappointing, yet expected, that for a character who was added specifically to prevent the Ram village gang from being such a sausage fest, they couldn't think of anything better for her then having her entire existence revolve around humping the main character's leg. The only surprising thing about this is that she is wearing more then just underwear.

Edited by BrightBow

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7 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Though I will say that the additions of Conrad, Berkut, and Rinea did help the story.

I’ll agree with Berkut and Rinea but Conrad actively makes Celica’s story worse. Simply by virtue of making her look dumber than she actually is and that she’s basically an idiot without some heroic knight dude to come and save her. I realize that’s something of the point but with both Conrad and Alm serving that purpose it just comes off as a little condescending.

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34 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Let's not get crazy here. By now the bar for characters has been set so low that Faye compares favorably to most modern characters simply on virtue of actually being genuine friends with her romantic rival, rather then secretly plotting to murder her. Or trying to use a voodoo doll to force Alm to love her, or whatever.
Also the fact that during her support with Alm, she has to accept the fact that she and Alm will never be together. Which is more mature then any of the juvenile crap they have been putting out these past 10 years.
And no, I'm not saying it's good. The bar has just been set that low. Especially when it comes to love and romance.

 

In any case, all the new characters at best add nothing in the case of the Berkut gang or at worst actually detract from it, like Conrad. Faye is also technically inoffensive, but it's disappointing, yet expected, that for a character who was added specifically to prevent the Ram village gang from being such a sausage fest, they couldn't think of anything better for her then having her entire existence revolve around humping the main character's leg. The only surprising thing about this is that she is wearing more then just underwear.

You are exaggerating more than I am by implying that she's better than most modern characters. Which she isn't. She's damn near as bad as Peri.

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Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

You are exaggerating more than I am by implying that she's better than most modern characters. Which she isn't. She's damn near as bad as Peri.

Near as bad as the character which expects us to treat her happily murdering people as a cute quirk? ....okay.

Nevermind that Peri's mere existence reflects really, really, really poorly on everyone who associates with her.
Granted, this is the Nohr cast we are talking about. Not like they need any help in that regard.

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I'm gonna vouch for Faye, I like her MUCH better than Peri. As much as she isn't good character, Faye gracefully accepts that Alm will never feel the same way about her at the end of their support chain, and for the most part she genuinely did like Celica as a friend and is happy to see her again. Peri murders people for fun and in all supports except for the one with Laslow everyone basically gives up on trying to teach her right from wrong.

As for me, I really hope future remakes don't add in any new playable characters, unless they already exist somewhere in that universe. Like ... if a hypothetical FE6 remake wanted to incorporate Lyn into the world properly and made her recruitable in Sacae, I'd be more okay with it than if they added some random new character who never existed before to be there for whatever reason. FE4 in particular would be pretty hard to fit a new character into. For the most part, the games really don't "need" any new playable characters because only a few of them are integral to the plot, and adding more plot-important characters just makes things needlessly messy. And I don't see the point in adding a new plot irrelevant character either.

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14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I’ll agree with Berkut and Rinea but Conrad actively makes Celica’s story worse. Simply by virtue of making her look dumber than she actually is and that she’s basically an idiot without some heroic knight dude to come and save her. I realize that’s something of the point but with both Conrad and Alm serving that purpose it just comes off as a little condescending.

I'm sorry, but Celica's incredible lack of intelligence or naivety is self-evident without Conrad or anyone else involved.

 

"Hey Mr. Badguy, you may look obviously evil, and everyone is telling me not to trust you, but you're a fellow man of faith and thus can't possibly be bad. Oh god! The priest is bad! Halp!"

 

At least Eirika has the mitigating factor of Lyon being her best friend and possible marriage prospect. The only way to handwave Celica's choice to look good is to headcanon that she's already under Jedah's spell.

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28 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I'm sorry, but Celica's incredible lack of intelligence or naivety is self-evident without Conrad or anyone else involved.

 

"Hey Mr. Badguy, you may look obviously evil, and everyone is telling me not to trust you, but you're a fellow man of faith and thus can't possibly be bad. Oh god! The priest is bad! Halp!"

 

At least Eirika has the mitigating factor of Lyon being her best friend and possible marriage prospect. The only way to handwave Celica's choice to look good is to headcanon that she's already under Jedah's spell.

We all know she actually fell in the swamp and only got dragged up after severe brain damage from oxygen deprivation before meeting Jedah.

I like Celica as a character, I really do but Jedah is so obviously evil it really, really doesn't work for me.

It honestly feels less like Celica making a bad decision and more the plot forcing her to do it, it simply feels out of character for how naive she has to be. (Yes, I know she's ment to be a bit Naive but she's not THAT naive.)

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1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

I’ll agree with Berkut and Rinea but Conrad actively makes Celica’s story worse. Simply by virtue of making her look dumber than she actually is and that she’s basically an idiot without some heroic knight dude to come and save her. I realize that’s something of the point but with both Conrad and Alm serving that purpose it just comes off as a little condescending.

Celica did so much shit without Conrad though, a few scenes of his introductions don't magically make her an idiot. People overblow this shit.

8 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Well, I don't think either are especially good examples.

 

Shadow Dragon's approach has nothing to do with quantity. No one in Archanea has a personality. Not just the new characters. They couldn't be bothered to improve Shadow Dragon's lack of writing for its remake, and I don't think future remakes will repeat.

 

SoV's new characters are a mixed bag. Faye is legit one of the worst characters in the entire franchise. Fernand is also awful. Though I will say that the additions of Conrad, Berkut, and Rinea did help the story.

Not true, many Archanea characters have personality. They just aren't explored because the remakes would rather focus on OCs than completely explore others.

Fernand isn't awful, he's fucking fantastic especially with the DLC and his actions doesn't lead to shit where he suddenly gets redemption. He completely helps flesh out Clive, Mathilda and Clair's backgrounds and relations.

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Honestly, for all the flak Celica gets, there is some degree of sense to her actions.

The only naivete she has is thinking Jedah's plan to restore Duma and Mila's sanity would work... and honestly, what evidence Celica had that his plan wouldn't work? For bonus points, I don't think even Jedah knew if his plan would work, but it's pretty much the only time someone is actually trying to reverse the dragon degeneration.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Celica did so much shit without Conrad though, a few scenes of his introductions don't magically make her an idiot. People overblow this shit.

 

Thank you. I sometimes question if I played the same game when people start talking about Celica. I honestly feel like people don't really understand her character as much as they think they do.

Edited by Rose482

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27 minutes ago, Rose482 said:

 

 

Thank you. I sometimes question if I played the same game when people start talking about Celica. I honestly feel like people don't really understand her character as much as they think they do.

Clearly not. Especially when people are laser focused on Jedah's design and forget the scenes where he made valid points. 

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2 hours ago, Seazas said:
3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

 

Celica did so much shit without Conrad though, a few scenes of his introductions don't magically make her an idiot. People overblow this shit.

My problem with Conrad is that he just feels unnecessary. Cause like what exactly does he really add to Celica’s character? Not much if I’m being honest. It just kinda feels a condescending to Celica that she can’t make decisions on her own and needs a man to constantly save her. I feel like without him the mistakes she makes feel more like her own and thus she’s a more nuanced character as a result. That’s just my opinion though 

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4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

My problem with Conrad is that he just feels unnecessary. Cause like what exactly does he really add to Celica’s character? Not much if I’m being honest. It just kinda feels a condescending to Celica that she can’t make decisions on her own and needs a man to constantly save her. I feel like without him the mistakes she makes feel more like her own and thus she’s a more nuanced character as a result. That’s just my opinion though 

Conrad further fleshed out Celica's past and gave more purpose to Halcyon and the secret forest than just a plot device. Celica made many decisions on her own without a man saving her. Like successfully storming Greith's citadel despite Jesse's warnings and recommendations, making the decision to constantly fight pirates regardless of Saber's view, she helps save Est, Irma and other characters that become indebted to the princess. 

Edited by Seazas

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4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

My problem with Conrad is that he just feels unnecessary. Cause like what exactly does he really add to Celica’s character? Not much if I’m being honest. It just kinda feels a condescending to Celica that she can’t make decisions on her own and needs a man to constantly save her. I feel like without him the mistakes she makes feel more like her own and thus she’s a more nuanced character as a result. That’s just my opinion though 

I won't say it's unnecessary. To Celica, having someone who understand her and the situation she's in meant a lot to her. I remember when Conrad first revealed his identity to her, just before that I believe she was saying something about how no one understand her, and was really upset about it (It been years since i played that game, I can't for the life of me remember anything else about that conversation, but I'm pretty sure it happened.) So yes while in theory you could write him out  of the story, I still would say his character was a very nice touch to her story. And without him, it wouldn't had been better.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with him saving her. A man saving saving her doesn't really take away any of the things she has accomplished, and I would say she did quite a bit.

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Regardless of how we feel about the added characters in SoV, I don't think either of the Jugdral games really need any more characters? Don't they have a good cast already? And Tellius and Elibe DEFINITELY don't need additions.

I agree with OP that SoV did added characters better than the Archanea remakes, they filled in gaps mostly. But Faye sticks out like a sore thumb imo. She added nothing and was just annoying. Berkut and Rinea were well recieved, Fernand was some nice drama, Conrad, I liked him. I loved the memory prism with him and Celica as kids about the broken vase. I thought it was absolutely adorable.

I might be wrong about Jugdral, but I feel that if an Elibe remake got more characters they would all be Fayes or be bland like Shadow Dragon additions, Katarina and the assassins were okay I guess.

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Addressing the core of the post here - generally, I agree. For the record, I enjoy the "new" characters in Shadow Dragon - I find them quite memorable, and possessing of far more personality than quite a few returning characters (like, does anyone know Vyland's personality? Or Macellan's?). Echoes, on the other hand, chose to expand on the personalities of most pre-existing characters - a solid choice, if I do say so.

Still, Genealogy has enough playable characters that they don't need to add a ton. And with the "field everyone" game design, more characters means either turns taking even longer, or half your army being left behind in the home castle. As for new (playable) characters, I would be happy with 2 in gen I, 2 child units, 2 substitute units, and playable Areone. And while FE4 started giving its characters more personality, I hope to see that expanded even further in a remake.

Binding Blade is a little different, in that it takes a lot of cues from the Archanea games, in overall game design. And we already have fairly-fleshed characters, through the first modern support system. I wouldn't mind more than a handful of new characters, so long as they have reason to be there, such as a connection to FE7. We could see an older Vaida as one of King Zephiel's advisors, get Lowen (the most famous knight in all Pherae?) as a playable character, and speak to Roland himself when picking out Durandal (in fact, do apparitions for all the S-rank weapons).

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9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Binding Blade is a little different, in that it takes a lot of cues from the Archanea games, in overall game design. And we already have fairly-fleshed characters, through the first modern support system. I wouldn't mind more than a handful of new characters, so long as they have reason to be there, such as a connection to FE7. We could see an older Vaida as one of King Zephiel's advisors, get Lowen (the most famous knight in all Pherae?) as a playable character, and speak to Roland himself when picking out Durandal (in fact, do apparitions for all the S-rank weapons).

I would support some FE7 characters being in a FE6 remake, this is a good idea. I would rather have FE7 cameos so to speak than new characters.

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38 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Regardless of how we feel about the added characters in SoV, I don't think either of the Jugdral games really need any more characters? Don't they have a good cast already? And Tellius and Elibe DEFINITELY don't need additions.

I agree with OP that SoV did added characters better than the Archanea remakes, they filled in gaps mostly. But Faye sticks out like a sore thumb imo. She added nothing and was just annoying. Berkut and Rinea were well recieved, Fernand was some nice drama, Conrad, I liked him. I loved the memory prism with him and Celica as kids about the broken vase. I thought it was absolutely adorable.

I might be wrong about Jugdral, but I feel that if an Elibe remake got more characters they would all be Fayes or be bland like Shadow Dragon additions, Katarina and the assassins were okay I guess.

Faye is trash yeah, but at least she served a purpose. She was... filler for the sake of a female village.

Yeah, she's bad. At least she's irrelevant.

Jugdral didn't need new additions, but neither did Archanea yet here we are. I just have a feeling that a new character is guaranteed one way or another. 

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I could almost bet at least one new character to a Genealogy remake will be so we can get a playable character with Dáinn blood. Separate from whether they make Arion playable or not.

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Faye is a horse that has been beaten to death already so I’m not gonna talk about her. 

I’m pretty disappointed in how Rinea is treated in the story, she pretty much exists to die and drive home that Berkut has lost his mind. It would have been interesting to see her and Berkut get into an argument about their ideological differences at some point. Or for her to have an active part in the war like her trying to guide him into choosing more peaceful options, or do literally anything at all besides commentating on how she hates violence. 

But what I really don’t like is the fact that she reconciles with the man who sacrificed her so that he could gain greater power, it rubs me the wrong way. I get that he wasn’t in his right mind and she’s very forgiving, but still I think it sends out a message that they (hopefully) weren’t intending to.

Overall she and Faye feel like they exist just to exist pretty much, really nice designs but not much else. 

Edited by Silver Star

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23 minutes ago, Silver Star said:

Faye is a horse that has been beaten to death already so I’m not gonna talk about her. 

I’m pretty disappointed in how Rinea is treated in the story, she pretty much exists to die and drive home that Berkut has lost his mind. It would have been interesting to see her and Berkut get into an argument about their ideological differences at some point. Or for her to have an active part in the war like her trying to guide him into choosing more peaceful options, or do literally anything at all besides commentating on how she hates violence. 

But what I really don’t like is the fact that she reconciles with the man who sacrificed her so that he could gain greater power, it rubs me the wrong way. I get that he wasn’t in his right mind and she’s very forgiving, but still I think it sends out a message that they (hopefully) weren’t intending to.

Overall she and Faye feel like they exist just to exist pretty much, really nice designs but not much else. 

If I’m being honest the relationship between Rinea and Berkut already sort of came off as one sided and abusive and I’m confused(as with a lot of other things in this narrative) as to whether or not that was intentional. Like I never really got the impression that Rinea ever truly loved Berkut. It felt more like he was forcing her into it. Even the memory prism gives me that impression. Also I dunno about you but if you want me to believe the two are close then why is Rinea referring to Berkut with honorifics? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Like if they truly loved each other wouldn’t they be more on a first name basis without honorifics. What’s with the whole “Lord Berkut/Berkut-Sama” business? Like why is she so formal with him. Is it poor localization or what? Again it just feels like she’s being forced into it by Berkut’s sheer arrogance and dominating power. Maybe that’s the point but even so that doesn’t explain why she forgives him in the end. I don’t know this narrative just confuses me

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On 8/17/2020 at 2:14 PM, Ottservia said:

If I’m being honest the relationship between Rinea and Berkut already sort of came off as one sided and abusive and I’m confused(as with a lot of other things in this narrative) as to whether or not that was intentional. Like I never really got the impression that Rinea ever truly loved Berkut. It felt more like he was forcing her into it. Even the memory prism gives me that impression. Also I dunno about you but if you want me to believe the two are close then why is Rinea referring to Berkut with honorifics? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Like if they truly loved each other wouldn’t they be more on a first name basis without honorifics. What’s with the whole “Lord Berkut/Berkut-Sama” business? Like why is she so formal with him. Is it poor localization or what? Again it just feels like she’s being forced into it by Berkut’s sheer arrogance and dominating power. Maybe that’s the point but even so that doesn’t explain why she forgives him in the end. I don’t know this narrative just confuses me

From my interpretation she truly loves him, but the distance created by his responsibilities as prince have kinda driven them apart a little- she says that she never wanted to be Empress, and that she only cares about being with him. She also sounds super disappointed when Berkut tells her that he's marching for the border, and expresses as much. That distance could also play into the use of honorifics.

The main problem they have is that their relationship was clearly meant to be for the sole reason of showing Berkut's humanity before meeting and losing to the Deliverance. Berkut is at his most vulnerable around her, but we only ever see her open up to him in Act 5, and then he sacrifices her immediately after. A couple earlier scenes with the two of them that aren't just Berkut ranting or Rinea feeling even more isolated from Berkut after he promises to make her Empress would have made their relationship more clearly two-sided.

Actually now that I think about it there was the original dance cutscene, where both of them are clearly happy just being in each other's company. So I'd say they do both love each other, but Rinea does feel a little distant from him during and over the course of the story.

EDIT: Wrt the main topic of the post, I legitimately wouldn't recognise if a character was added in the remake or not, as I haven't played any of the Tellius or Jugdral games. I liked the quality of the Echoes characters at least, notwithstanding my issues with Rinea- Faye is nowhere near as bad as people make her out to be (though I agree she isn't good), I like Fernand and Berkut a lot, and Conrad is... a thing, I guess. He's fun to watch, at the very least. So yeah, if future remakes get characters roughly of the same quality I'll be satisfied.

Edited by Anathaco

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