Jump to content

Are swords really bad in Three Houses?


Barren
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just a question for those who played this game through and through (and played the series' games in general). Are swords really awful in three houses? Reason why I ask is because I noticed that some people tend to say that Lances, Axes are better because of better Combat Arts and that Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lords take full advantage of them. 8 move , flight, weaponfaire and avoid +10 are all strong abilities and optimal for physical attackers. I know also that Snipers and Grapplers are worthy mentions too because of the class exclusive combat arts, but Swordmasters, Assassins and even the Hero Class gets glossed over for I'm guessing because either their growths aren't that great and their mobility is out classed compared to other classes. 

I mean the sword combat art lists aren't bad IMO. Soul Blade is a nice magic based combat art that can target Res which is generally low to below average for most physical classes. And Windsweep being able to prevent counter attacks is useful for you getting in a free hit. Sublime Creator Sword hits hard in general and has a safe 2 range attack and forged Levin Swords can be combined nicely with fiendish blow and swordfaire. Accuracy Ring helps with that too. But all in all, are swords really bad in this game or in the series in general?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't speak for the entire series, but of the FE games I've played, swords suffer the most in 3H. It's true that there are fewer good swords in 3H, and the CAs/classes that use swords aren't as good as CAs/classes using other weapons. Overall, it's 3H's sheer customisability that makes swords the 'worst' weapon type (technically offensive Faith is worse, but you get my drift).

Basically, there's always been this tradeoff that swords are the most accurate/lightest of swords/axes/lances, and also the least powerful. That had its place in other games, where the weapon triangle was a much bigger presence, and depending on game, doubling/dodgetanking/securing crits was very important, and easiest to achieve with sword users. This is still somewhat the case in 3H, but the fact that everyone can use pretty much anything in any class, and you have most of the game, and a shit-ton of resources, to fix their stats and weak areas (like accuracy), means that these niches can be filled, and filled better by users of weapons other than swords. 

38 minutes ago, Barren said:

Swordmasters, Assassins and even the Hero Class gets glossed over for I'm guessing because either their growths aren't that great and their mobility is out classed compared to other classes. 

I mean the sword combat art lists aren't bad IMO. Soul Blade is a nice magic based combat art that can target Res which is generally low to below average for most physical classes. And Windsweep being able to prevent counter attacks is useful for you getting in a free hit. Sublime Creator Sword hits hard in general and has a safe 2 range attack and forged Levin Swords can be combined nicely with fiendish blow and swordfaire. Accuracy Ring helps with that too.

The things you've listed above are certainly good, but not many of their benefits are exclusive to swords, and their unique benefits are often outweighed by other weapon types. I think Levin Sword+ is pretty useful (not too much investment, but it gives most mages 3-range magical damage even if they can't access Thoron/range-boosters, and gives physical units 3-range linked attack reach at worst) but it still won't get kills. Windsweep and Soulblade are character-locked (to just a couple of characters too) and while they are good characters, the sword CA tends to be an added bonus rather than an argument for using the character in itself. There are other worthwhile swords (Rapier+ is great, Wo Dao+/Cursed Ashiya Sword+ can be nice) but again, their bonuses can be replicated with other weapon types, which have their own things going for them that swords can't provide. 

Swords aren't bad per se, they're just worse relatively speaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big problem with swords is that there isn't a great endgame class for them.  Axes get Wyvern Lord.  Lances get Falcon Knight.  Gauntlets get access to War Master (and therefore Quick Riposte) and Grappler (for Fierce Iron Fist).  The best endgame sword class is probably Assassin, but it is severely lacking compared to other endgame classes just in terms of mobility and lack of exciting mastery combat arts or abilities.  It's egregious enough that there's a case to be made that the best endgame class for a sword user is still either Falcon Knight or Wyvern Lord, and that's despite the fact that you'd be giving up a free class-based weapon-faire ability.

Given how easy it is to customize the build pattern for units in this game, it's fairly straightforward to get units into other classes or weapon proficiencies if you want to.  So why wouldn't you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't feel swords are in that bad a place in Three Houses. It's a very player-phase focused game, which means that the lack of 1-2 range physical swords hurts a lot less than it otherwise would. You also get access to fancy named swords a lot earlier in Three Houses than you do in some other games in the series. Sword of the Creator and Thunderbrand are both great and are both available from early on.

Yeah, there are definitely still problems with swords, and they're probably overall the second weakest weapon type in the game (after offensive white magic), but they're still plenty usable and have definitely been worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My only good sword units have been Byleth, Felix, Catherine and Dorothea but they've all been fine so they may be worse but they certainly aren't bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is probably a hot take, but I say no. Swords were much worse off in Shadow Dragon and Blazing Blade through Path of Radiance, largely because the lance-heavy enemy ranks in those games meant sword users faced WTD constantly. If there's a bad weapon type in 3H, it's axes. Sure, everyone worships the ground Wyvern Lord walks on (or flies over, as the case may be), but that doesn't make axes good in my view. The high weight of axes is NOT a good thing when weapon weight is much harder to offset than in the last games that used weight (Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, and Shadow Dragon, where strength offset weight on a point-to-point scale. In this game, it takes 5 points of strength to negate one point of weight). It doesn't help that axes are rather lacking on the combat art front. Or that the axe relics got the short end of the stick due to them having hot garbage accuracy on top of high weight, ESPECIALLY the Crusher, which is probably the worst relic in the goddamn game. That being said, this game is pretty much the lowest point for the Hero class, as it's outclassed by Swordmaster and Assassin.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I don't feel swords are in that bad a place in Three Houses. It's a very player-phase focused game, which means that the lack of 1-2 range physical swords hurts a lot less than it otherwise would. You also get access to fancy named swords a lot earlier in Three Houses than you do in some other games in the series. Sword of the Creator and Thunderbrand are both great and are both available from early on.

Yeah, there are definitely still problems with swords, and they're probably overall the second weakest weapon type in the game (after offensive white magic), but they're still plenty usable and have definitely been worse.

I mostly agree with this, although I think the fancy named swords are less of a help than those for some other weapon types - Sword of the Creator is locked to one unit (except as a very heavy 1 range weapon which is still weaker than most other relics), and Thunderbrand is only available early on 2 out of 4 routes, and while good it does have some limitations even thereafter due to not being a good fit for combat arts (compared to Lance of Ruin or Freikugel, say).

But largely swords are held back in this game by Swordfaire classes being on the weaker side and their low might hurting more in this game than some others (e.g. GBA games where one-rounding is easy if you double). They have some nice perks and no weapon in this game is truly bad but they're probably the worst (unless, as mentioned, offensive white magic counts).

 

It's obviously not axes. Training Axe+ is light enough for most purposes (while still having the same might as an Iron Sword+), and Axe Prowess having a high boost + the many ways to boost hit in this game means it's easy to negate their weaknesses, and their high power + synergy with Wyvern makes them really useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I can't speak for the entire series, but of the FE games I've played, swords suffer the most in 3H. It's true that there are fewer good swords in 3H, and the CAs/classes that use swords aren't as good as CAs/classes using other weapons. Overall, it's 3H's sheer customisability that makes swords the 'worst' weapon type (technically offensive Faith is worse, but you get my drift).

Basically, there's always been this tradeoff that swords are the most accurate/lightest of swords/axes/lances, and also the least powerful. That had its place in other games, where the weapon triangle was a much bigger presence, and depending on game, doubling/dodgetanking/securing crits was very important, and easiest to achieve with sword users. This is still somewhat the case in 3H, but the fact that everyone can use pretty much anything in any class, and you have most of the game, and a shit-ton of resources, to fix their stats and weak areas (like accuracy), means that these niches can be filled, and filled better by users of weapons other than swords. 

The things you've listed above are certainly good, but not many of their benefits are exclusive to swords, and their unique benefits are often outweighed by other weapon types. I think Levin Sword+ is pretty useful (not too much investment, but it gives most mages 3-range magical damage even if they can't access Thoron/range-boosters, and gives physical units 3-range linked attack reach at worst) but it still won't get kills. Windsweep and Soulblade are character-locked (to just a couple of characters too) and while they are good characters, the sword CA tends to be an added bonus rather than an argument for using the character in itself. There are other worthwhile swords (Rapier+ is great, Wo Dao+/Cursed Ashiya Sword+ can be nice) but again, their bonuses can be replicated with other weapon types, which have their own things going for them that swords can't provide. 

Swords aren't bad per se, they're just worse relatively speaking.

Yea I can see where you're coming from. I mean everyone having certain CAs makes them unique to an extent (budding talent included). And I do like how the game gives you these options to explore. Makes you want to experiment around with them. What also bugs me is that the end game sword classes I've mentioned are just outclassed and not bad (at least for the most part).

I mean sure Swordmasters can do crit builds with their innate sword crit +10 but they have their 5 move to worry about.

Hero has a cute gimmick in having innate vantage and defiant strength but unless you're the high risk kind of player, you don't want to be on low health especially on maddening unless you have a well crafted plan.

Assassin by proxy is the most useful since they have no terrain penalty to worry about and 6 move isn't terrible but they lack not only a punch like other classes. Not to mention that assassinate and lethality are very unreliable. Though fun fact, I did manage to get Lethality to trigger a few times on my golden deer run with Leonie and Yuri when using bows and that caught me by surprise. I was on normal mode at the time and my chances had to have been around 8-10% since the formula is Dex/4. 

And Mortal Savant.....yea. One thing I will mention about it however is that Yuri does make a good Mortal Savant candidate and has a easier time getting there compared to Manuela. But again, losing the speed growth sucks even though he can afford it.

Edited by Barren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I can't speak for the entire series, but of the FE games I've played, swords suffer the most in 3H. It's true that there are fewer good swords in 3H, and the CAs/classes that use swords aren't as good as CAs/classes using other weapons. Overall, it's 3H's sheer customisability that makes swords the 'worst' weapon type (technically offensive Faith is worse, but you get my drift).

Basically, there's always been this tradeoff that swords are the most accurate/lightest of swords/axes/lances, and also the least powerful. That had its place in other games, where the weapon triangle was a much bigger presence, and depending on game, doubling/dodgetanking/securing crits was very important, and easiest to achieve with sword users. This is still somewhat the case in 3H, but the fact that everyone can use pretty much anything in any class, and you have most of the game, and a shit-ton of resources, to fix their stats and weak areas (like accuracy), means that these niches can be filled, and filled better by users of weapons other than swords. 

This begs the question, what FE games HAVE you played? Because out of the ones I have played, swords were only particularly bad in Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance, Shadow Dragon, and Sacred Stones, more because they were constantly suffering WTD than anything else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the GBA games, swords were helped by the fact that (a) they were lighter in a game where doubling was more critical than 3H [it was extremely difficult to KO without a double in those games, compared to 3H with its storebought brave, OHKO magic combat arts, and 2HKO brave combat arts], and (b) units couldn't choose what type of weapons they had and some good units were stuck with swords for at least a good part of their existence, HHM Raven being the best example. Additionally, the weapon triangle meant that sword-users were the absolute best at fighting axe users who they could reduce to low/0 hit... the same's somewhat true in 3H with Axebreaker but that eats a skill slot and is unavailable until you reach B rank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

In the GBA games, swords were helped by the fact that (a) they were lighter in a game where doubling was more critical than 3H [it was extremely difficult to KO without a double in those games, compared to 3H with its storebought brave, OHKO magic combat arts, and 2HKO brave combat arts], and (b) units couldn't choose what type of weapons they had and some good units were stuck with swords for at least a good part of their existence, HHM Raven being the best example. Additionally, the weapon triangle meant that sword-users were the absolute best at fighting axe users who they could reduce to low/0 hit... the same's somewhat true in 3H with Axebreaker but that eats a skill slot and is unavailable until you reach B rank.

What about the fact that enemies are piss weak and tend to weigh themselves down in Blazing Blade and Sacred Stones? And the fact that in the former, lances were extremely common, which hurt sword users? I'll grant, swords were best against axe users, but just how useful is that when Blazing Blade and maybe Sacred Stones spam lance units like they were going out of style? Anyway, while the weapon triangle is not a thing, facing down a sword user with an axe wielder in 3H is still moronic, because all the power in the world doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't hit home, and you're asking to get doubled. Second, there's the Mondoragon in the room of weight, which you ignored. No, I am NOT okay with using a Training Axe+ to avoid this. Bringing that up as a "solution" only suggests to me that weight is indeed a problem for axes. RE: magic combat arts, I'm rather skeptical about building around then, because if you don't OHKO, your unit is in all likelihood done for.

Edited by Shadow Mir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Swords aren't bad IMO, they just kinda have less options. Sure, they get Soulblade and Windsweep, which is nice, but Frozen Lance and even Lightning Axe are probably just as good, if not better, and Windsweep is more situational than anything else- most enemies will die to a combat art like Hunter's Volley, for example, and not eat a counterattack in the process, so it fulfils the same purpose but also kills the enemy. Not to mention Curved Shot will also usually avoid counters too, and is available earlier and on everyone. Other than that, Lances get Swift Strikes and Vengeance, Bows get Hunter's Volley and Point Blank Volley, Gauntlets get Fierce Iron Fist, etc. And in terms of early game utility, Wrath Strike is nice, but you'd much rather have Tempest Lance for more damage or Curved Shot to avoid counters/more accuracy. Hell, even Smash is probably a bit better than it

In terms of stats, swords have always been the low might, low weight, high accuracy weapon. The problem with this, at least on Maddening, is that a) low weight will still probably not let you double, and b) accuracy is still super easy to patch up. Axes are generally seen as good because of these factors- player phase combat is king on Maddening, so you want an attack that prioritises damage, and just patch up the accuracy if necessary with linked attacks or an accuracy ring, or both if it's really bad.

And then finally, class options. Throughout the whole game, sword classes are just kinda, well, outclassed. Myrmidon vs Soldier or Fighter is probably going to go the way of fighter, except for the few fast units that may actually use Speed + 2 effectively. Strength + 2 is just better, Defence + 2 is also pretty nice IMO, and Myrmidons learn Swap when mastered- which is IMO a lot worse than Reposition or Shove.

In Intermediate classes it's more of the same- you can master Mercenary if you want to go for a vantage build, or you can go for Thief if you want steal, which is... yeah. Meanwhile, Axes are universally praised as they let mortals access the almighty Death Blow, Lance classes give cav movement if nothing else, but females can also use lances to get into pegasus knight for Darting Blow.

In Advanced classes you have 3 options- Hero, which is nice for gimmicky vantage/defiant strength builds, but offers little else, Swordmaster, which is kind of average statwise, other than high speed, and doesn't improve upon mastery, and Assassin, which is nice for high speed builds and is probably the best Sword class in the game (unless you count Falcon Knight), but isn't worth going out of your way for unless you want to end in it (or really, really want Lethality for a gimmicky build). Axes get Wyvern Rider or Warrior for Wrath if you so desire. Lances get Paladin, which is nice for the mobility and a decent final class for some lance units.

Finally, in Master classes, Swords get only Mortal Savant, which suffers from being a hybrid class, necessitating your sword unit training in reason just to access it, and then them having to deal with the poor magical damage they dish out (generally speaking). Lances are arguably more limited, with it being required for Falcon Knight, plus lance training is needed to get into Dark/Holy/Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord, but female lance users still have a much better option than Mortal Savant in Falcon Knight, and Paladin is always available for the males. Axes, obviously, get Wyvern Lord and War Master, which are both amazing classes.

Overall, I still wouldn't say they're terrible or unusable, even on Maddening. White Tomes are terrible and even then they're not unusable IMO. Swords are in a much better position than that, but less good class options, a worse statline for what you want units to accomplish in Maddening, and less good combat arts makes it less desirable to specialise in Swords than other weapons. Hell, if you ask a lot of people about Felix, they'll say his best class lies along the Bow or Brawling line, and he's the swordiest swordsman to ever sword. In comparison to other games? I think they're still a bit better than in games like Blazing Blade, where 1-2 range is super important and enemy speed is pretty low, but I don't have a lot of experience with many FE games. So take that with a grain of salt I guess.

EDIT: I specifically told myself to mention Dodgetanking and then forgot. Good job, me. Swords are IMO the best weapon type for a dodgetank build, what with Sword Avo +20 and the low weight of swords, plus higher damage on enemy phase than Brawling, the other lightweight weapon with an Avo +20 skill. Whether or not it's worth giving up a dancer is up to the player, but it can still be quite effective, particularly if they also have high charm to avoid Gambits as much as possible. I'd say this niche gives swords at least some good usage even on Maddening.

Edited by Anathaco
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

No, I am NOT okay with using a Training Axe+ to avoid this. Bringing that up as a "solution" only suggests to me that weight is indeed a problem for axes. RE: magic combat arts, I'm rather skeptical about building around then, because if you don't OHKO, your unit is in all likelihood done for.

😐 everything has a problem if you are not smart and don't adress it in any way you can then. (gambits are bad they have terrible accuracy and I don't consider linked attacks a solution because I have to get out of my way to position my units!!!!!!!!!!!)

a training axe+ has 6mt, 80acc, 4wt and 65 uses

iron sword+ has 6mt, 100acc, 5wt and 45 uses

iron lance+ has 7mt, 90acc, 6wt, 35 uses

why would you not consider this a valid solution??? also iron axe+ has just 1 extra wt over the iron lance+

training axe+ wt will be offset by most good physical unit str even in the midgame

 

my personal opinion is that swords are actually useful early game since they often times are the only option that will not get you doubled, but fall off in the later chapters, mostly because they have bad endgame classes

a physical weapon tierlist imo would be: bows>lances>swords>axes in the early game and bows>lances>axes>swords in the lategame

(I rate lances that high mostly because of tempest lance and swift strikes, that and the fact that most endgame classes need lance ranks anyway)

yes I forgot guantlets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyway, while the weapon triangle is not a thing, facing down a sword user with an axe wielder in 3H is still moronic, because all the power in the world doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't hit home, and you're asking to get doubled. Second, there's the Mondoragon in the room of weight, which you ignored. No, I am NOT okay with using a Training Axe+ to avoid this.

The Training Axe+ literally has the same might as an Iron Sword+, with one less weight. Not sure why you're not okay with it. Anyway, I already mentioned why weight often matters less: it's much more possible to do good damage in 3H without actually relying on doubling. It still matters, but not all the time...and when it matters, that's what your lighter weapons are for.

Axes only have 5 to 10 less hit than equivalent swords at A rank prowess, plus 2 per rank of prowess from L5. Their peak accuracy is actually identical (Mace+ vs Iron Sword+, both have 110 hit at Prowess 5) They also have 3 or 4 more power.

Here's a typical illustration to show how axes do in fact hit things just fine on Maddening:

Average base Dex is 6 and average dex growth is 45, so let's take Level 41 and get a Dex stat of 24. We'll ignore any class growth modifiers. If you want to quibble my level you can take this down a point or two but it won't matter much because Dex is a small factor in hit.

+1 from Wyvern Lord dex mod = 25

+70 from Brave Axe+ = 95 (if using other weapons, increase this, Mace+ is a further +20)

+20 from Axe Prowess 5 = 115

+15 from Cichol Wyverns = 130

+10 from Accuracy Ring = 140

+40 from four A supports = 180

On Crimson Flower endgame, that's enough to hit 100 accuracy on everything except the Wyvern Lord miniboss (92 displayed hit) and the Swordmaster miniboss (84 displayed hit). Heck, even if you want to bump my numbers down by 10 to allow a different accessory or one fewer support, this is still enough for 100 hit on all except those two and the falcon knights... against whom you can get your hit back to 100 by using Lancebreaker. Silver Snow endgame is similar; no minibosses this time, and the only things this setup won't reach 100 hit against are Axebreaker+ Heroes... and even then you still reach 83 displayed hit. I don't have the AM/VW numbers in front of me but they should be similar. And I want to emphasize that this is with the Brave Axe+, a weapon chosen for power rather than accuracy, and not using a combat art... Smash with a Mace+ will yield up to 40 more hit if needed! There is the odd truly exceptionally anti-axe enemy, like a swordmaster on a thicket or similar terrain, but that's rare enough that it's simple to send someone else in your army after them (like magic damage-dealers, who ignore thickets).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's also been an anti-sword sentiment in the community in the last year or so. 2 years ago and earlier I didn't see much (if any) anti-sword sentiment as I see today. The biggest issue with swords is that there's no equivalent to hand axes and javelins. There's the Levin Sword, but that's more comparable to the Bolt Axe and that special spear from Three Houses.

In Three Houses, the biggest issue with swords is

  • No real good endgame class. Swordmaster, Assassin, and Trickster are fine, but there's no Master Class requiring you to learn swords. Mortal Savant exists, but it's not great except for a select few characters.
  • No 1-2 range.
  • Most characters that are proficient in swords are better off in a different class line (Felix and Ignatz will function better as a Sniper/Bow Knight, Dorothea and Marianne would be better in a magic class, etc.)

However, if you still like swordies, use them! It's a good secondary weapon if you need one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

I think there's also been an anti-sword sentiment in the community in the last year or so. 2 years ago and earlier I didn't see much (if any) anti-sword sentiment as I see today. The biggest issue with swords is that there's no equivalent to hand axes and javelins. There's the Levin Sword, but that's more comparable to the Bolt Axe and that special spear from Three Houses.

Bolded: That's true, but in the context of this game, I don't see that as a big problem when throwing axes and javelins aren't very good compared to an Iron Bow+.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

This begs the question, what FE games HAVE you played? Because out of the ones I have played, swords were only particularly bad in Blazing Blade, Path of Radiance, Shadow Dragon, and Sacred Stones, more because they were constantly suffering WTD than anything else.

Fair enough. I've played FE10 (Radiant Dawn), FE11 (Shadow Dragon), and FE13 (Awakening) enough to be able to talk about them. I've also played FE9 and FE12, but I don't own the physical copies, so less game time, and thus can't speak so much for those. But you might be misunderstanding my earlier comment - I was trying to say that of these games, 3H gives swords the worst deal. Again, swords aren't bad per se, they're just worse relatively speaking (other people have already given good reasons as to why).

@AxelVDP's point about the early game is a good one, and a point in favour of swords. In my experience spamming Smash and Tempest Lance gets bigger damage for similar accuracy, but that can be a bit costly depending on how you play. 

29 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

I specifically told myself to mention Dodgetanking and then forgot. Good job, me. Swords are IMO the best weapon type for a dodgetank build, what with Sword Avo +20 and the low weight of swords, plus higher damage on enemy phase than Brawling, the other lightweight weapon with an Avo +20 skill. Whether or not it's worth giving up a dancer is up to the player, but it can still be quite effective, particularly if they also have high charm to avoid Gambits as much as possible. I'd say this niche gives swords at least some good usage even on Maddening.

Oooh interesting. I'd say that gauntlets end up making a better dodge tank overall, but the sword dodge tank is available quicker (which is a point in its favour, but not a massive one). 

Swords do require less work - your dodge tank skill set is basically ready from Ch. 11 after all. Losing your one dancer is definitely a sacrifice (though not necessarily a big one), but unless you're gonna run a sword flier, that's your one (and only) big shot at a sword dodge tank. But in comparison, C Faith isn't as daunting - I can't think of any character off the top of my head who wants to do a gauntlets dodge tank build who would have an issue getting this, and you could have as many gauntlets dodge tanks as you like.

Gauntlet dodge tanks will have slightly better avoid in the midgame (better strength to weight ratios), and they get even better in the late game, since they can get Quick Riposte more easily. Two chances to hit (and two chances to crit - most gauntlets users get decent crit too) and only one attack per enemy (except brave weapons) is big. They lose out on range, but not by much (and only really against Blutgang/SCS) - you'll probably want Retribution for your dodge tank anyway, so it's not a huge concern. You're right that sword users can get more damage in (especially high-crit weapons/SCS) but enemy phase kills from a dodge tank is a lucky bonus, rather than what I normally expect from them. Getting Fierce Iron Fist as well is a push, but in theory you'd have a better Player Phase than Assassin too. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bolded: That's true, but in the context of this game, I don't see that as a big problem when throwing axes and javelins aren't very good compared to an Iron Bow+.

That is true. Who needs a hand axe and/or javelin when an iron bow with close counter would be more effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Swords do require less work - your dodge tank skill set is basically ready from Ch. 11 after all. Losing your one dancer is definitely a sacrifice (though not necessarily a big one), but unless you're gonna run a sword flier, that's your one (and only) big shot at a sword dodge tank.

I would argue you don't need to give up your dancer. The dancer can play this role just fine, and it's a neat one, and a bit of a niche for swords for sure. If you're just planning to build a generalized dodge-tank, though, it's not the only way: Alert Stance+ (best done on a flier to speed the training) and Brawl Avo+20 (requires DLC) are two other routes. You can stack Alert Stance+ with one of the other two but I rarely find it necessary if you do all the appropriate evasion stacking tricks otherwise.

 

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

@AxelVDP's point about the early game is a good one, and a point in favour of swords. In my experience spamming Smash and Tempest Lance gets bigger damage for similar accuracy, but that can be a bit costly depending on how you play. 

I think it's pretty useful to have either a Training Sword or some sort of gauntlet on most physical units as a backup weapon, so you can trade them to it if necessary. This often will prevent them from being doubled, and is an inexpensive investment. I generally favour lances/axes using Tempest Lance/Smash on player phase, though. Lances in particular are very good for this, and since every mounted build requires some level of lance, going for early D rank in lances on most physical units is something I find quite helpful. Faster units like Petra may be able to start doubling with that low-weight weapon pretty quickly, but due to low mt it may not outdamage Comat Arts for a while anyway, except on enemy phase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Oooh interesting. I'd say that gauntlets end up making a better dodge tank overall, but the sword dodge tank is available quicker (which is a point in its favour, but not a massive one). 

Swords do require less work - your dodge tank skill set is basically ready from Ch. 11 after all. Losing your one dancer is definitely a sacrifice (though not necessarily a big one), but unless you're gonna run a sword flier, that's your one (and only) big shot at a sword dodge tank. But in comparison, C Faith isn't as daunting - I can't think of any character off the top of my head who wants to do a gauntlets dodge tank build who would have an issue getting this, and you could have as many gauntlets dodge tanks as you like.

Gauntlet dodge tanks will have slightly better avoid in the midgame (better strength to weight ratios), and they get even better in the late game, since they can get Quick Riposte more easily. Two chances to hit (and two chances to crit - most gauntlets users get decent crit too) and only one attack per enemy (except brave weapons) is big. They lose out on range, but not by much (and only really against Blutgang/SCS) - you'll probably want Retribution for your dodge tank anyway, so it's not a huge concern. You're right that sword users can get more damage in (especially high-crit weapons/SCS) but enemy phase kills from a dodge tank is a lucky bonus, rather than what I normally expect from them. Getting Fierce Iron Fist as well is a push, but in theory you'd have a better Player Phase than Assassin too.

Ngl I didn't put nearly as much thought into this as I perhaps should have- eg: I completely forgot about Quick Riposte, which you are right, is a massive factor in making a build like this. In addition, to add to your point about FIF, mastering Grappler also gives Tomebreaker, which is super nice considering magic avoid is generally lower than physical avoid. 

The one thing I forgot to explicitly state, but I was thinking of as I was writing, is that brawling can't be used while flying, so you miss out on Avo + 10 from flying classes- but then training for War Monk in addition to Wyvern Lord is quite hard to pull off. A Sword dodgetank has a similar issue where they should be training swords as high as they can to get to Prowess lvl 5, but also has to fill the requirements of a flying class-  a female using the Sword Avo method somewhat avoids this by needing sword training anyway, plus they can pick up Alert Stance/+ and even defiant avoid if you want. So somebody like Ingrid, Petra or Leonie has a natural progression to this path, and will likely yield the best results in terms of pure avoid. Male units who want to dodgetank, however, are probably best served going the brawling route for QR, picking up Tomebreaker along the way, and trying for at least Alert Stance if possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

Ngl I didn't put nearly as much thought into this as I perhaps should have- eg: I completely forgot about Quick Riposte, which you are right, is a massive factor in making a build like this. In addition, to add to your point about FIF, mastering Grappler also gives Tomebreaker, which is super nice considering magic avoid is generally lower than physical avoid. 

The one thing I forgot to explicitly state, but I was thinking of as I was writing, is that brawling can't be used while flying, so you miss out on Avo + 10 from flying classes- but then training for War Monk in addition to Wyvern Lord is quite hard to pull off. A Sword dodgetank has a similar issue where they should be training swords as high as they can to get to Prowess lvl 5, but also has to fill the requirements of a flying class-  a female using the Sword Avo method somewhat avoids this by needing sword training anyway, plus they can pick up Alert Stance/+ and even defiant avoid if you want. So somebody like Ingrid, Petra or Leonie has a natural progression to this path, and will likely yield the best results in terms of pure avoid. Male units who want to dodgetank, however, are probably best served going the brawling route for QR, picking up Tomebreaker along the way, and trying for at least Alert Stance if possible.

If you're talking about dodge tanking with gauntlets then Male Byleth as far as I'm aware is the best candidate because you could in theory build him up to have brawl prowess level 5, brawl avoid +20, tomebreaker, alert stance+ and probably quick riposte. Byleth has no bane in anything so this should feasibly work. Though if you want him to be a grappler for F.I.F or warmaster for the crit +20 is all up to preference really. Plus even if you're running just gauntlets, CA wise Healing Focus can be nice if you need to run away and heal. Quick Riposte ignores weight difference I assume so you can even give Byleth a shield for added protection like Hex Shield or Ochain Shield for negating crits

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I would argue you don't need to give up your dancer. The dancer can play this role just fine, and it's a neat one, and a bit of a niche for swords for sure. If you're just planning to build a generalized dodge-tank, though, it's not the only way: Alert Stance+ (best done on a flier to speed the training) and Brawl Avo+20 (requires DLC) are two other routes. You can stack Alert Stance+ with one of the other two but I rarely find it necessary if you do all the appropriate evasion stacking tricks otherwise.

Yep all completely true - it can be a bit finicky both dancing on Player Phase and being in the right position to dodge tank for enemy phase, but it's certainly doable. I also didn't mean to say SA +20 was the only way at all, I just meant it was the only way for a sword-exclusive build to do it. The idea being a sword-exclusive wouldn't otherwise train axes/lances/flying in an effort to get a second avoid skill. And since flier/fist avoid builds end up better overall, it's not as if swords does it best... is what I wanted to say.

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think it's pretty useful to have either a Training Sword or some sort of gauntlet on most physical units as a backup weapon, so you can trade them to it if necessary. This often will prevent them from being doubled, and is an inexpensive investment. I generally favour lances/axes using Tempest Lance/Smash on player phase, though. Lances in particular are very good for this, and since every mounted build requires some level of lance, going for early D rank in lances on most physical units is something I find quite helpful. Faster units like Petra may be able to start doubling with that low-weight weapon pretty quickly, but due to low mt it may not outdamage Comat Arts for a while anyway, except on enemy phase.

Yeah, this trick stays competitive well into the mid-to-late game, I've found. But again, the damage difference between a training sword and a gauntlet isn't going to be significant on enemy phase, so it's not a benefit exclusive to swords. 

10 hours ago, Anathaco said:

The one thing I forgot to explicitly state, but I was thinking of as I was writing, is that brawling can't be used while flying, so you miss out on Avo + 10 from flying classes- but then training for War Monk in addition to Wyvern Lord is quite hard to pull off. A Sword dodgetank has a similar issue where they should be training swords as high as they can to get to Prowess lvl 5, but also has to fill the requirements of a flying class-  a female using the Sword Avo method somewhat avoids this by needing sword training anyway, plus they can pick up Alert Stance/+ and even defiant avoid if you want. So somebody like Ingrid, Petra or Leonie has a natural progression to this path, and will likely yield the best results in terms of pure avoid. Male units who want to dodgetank, however, are probably best served going the brawling route for QR, picking up Tomebreaker along the way, and trying for at least Alert Stance if possible.

Good point - an infantry dodge tank isn't reasonably getting much higher than 90 Avo, but fliers can definitely get above 100 avoid, even without FK mastery. So yeah, Falcon Knights get the highest avoid (and could technically do with Sword Avoid as well). I guess it's worth saying that a swords FK with SA +20, Alert Stance+ and Defiant Avo will get the single highest avoidance of any unit ever (and Anna/Claude's battalions will add +15 Avo to that if you want). A point in favour of swords? Stacking avoid that much is overkill, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Anathaco said:

The one thing I forgot to explicitly state, but I was thinking of as I was writing, is that brawling can't be used while flying, so you miss out on Avo + 10 from flying classes- but then training for War Monk in addition to Wyvern Lord is quite hard to pull off.

Can't they use gauntlets when dismounted?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Can't they use gauntlets when dismounted?

I'm pretty sure they can. Although I think if you start a turn dismounted, you can't then remount to move and dismount again to attack/trigger Alert Stance, so you basically have to stay dismounted for most of a given map to get full dodge tank benefits and use gauntlets. And of course you can't dismount on top of a wall etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...