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Anyone else feel these are by far the most boring CYL winning units we've gotten so far


Jotari
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59 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So if we accept that who a particular unit is has absolutely no bearing on how useful a particular unit is, the question becomes why should or shouldn't we put the same face on units of a similar build. And the answer for why we shouldn't is simply variety. If like Edelgard I won't really want basically a replacement Edelgard making my previous one obsolete (though of course power creep will make everything obsolete eventually, but if we're viewing things purely from an efficiency stand point, the faces are irrelevant, viewing it from a faces stand point means there are certain characters we want to use because we like them).

That's a fair point, though the variety can be a double-edged sword. When Bride Micaiah came out, I used up a fair chunk of my stash trying to get her, to no avail. I would have felt a lot worse about it if she wasn't basically making the normal/Brave versions obsolete.

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I'd like a new Edelgard that can work in tandem with old Edelgard and make both of them worthwhile. And if I'm such an Edelgard fanboy I want to make a team composed of four different Edelgards, well then I'd much rather I could make that team with four units that cover each others weakness and incapabilities. Instead of having three axe armours and one axe infantry.

Granted, you probably won't be beating any Abyssals with it since it has a large weakness to red units and is lacking in magic/ranged options, but apart from that Edelgard Emblem isn't too bad. You've got a standard def tank, a mixed tank that comes with Distant Ward and a useful QR/Deflect B Skill, and two nukes that charge in, one focused on guaranteed follow-ups and the other focused on taking up to three actions in a turn.

I sometimes use RGB Micaiah Emblem, and despite being colour balanced they don't cover each other's weaknesses well. I use Sothe as a substitute for Bride Micaiah and he's better from a unit standpoint, but he's lacking from a face standpoint.

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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

That's a fair point, though the variety can be a double-edged sword. When Bride Micaiah came out, I used up a fair chunk of my stash trying to get her, to no avail. I would have felt a lot worse about it if she wasn't basically making the normal/Brave versions obsolete.

Granted, you probably won't be beating any Abyssals with it since it has a large weakness to red units and is lacking in magic/ranged options, but apart from that Edelgard Emblem isn't too bad. You've got a standard def tank, a mixed tank that comes with Distant Ward and a useful QR/Deflect B Skill, and two nukes that charge in, one focused on guaranteed follow-ups and the other focused on taking up to three actions in a turn.

I sometimes use RGB Micaiah Emblem, and despite being colour balanced they don't cover each other's weaknesses well. I use Sothe as a substitute for Bride Micaiah and he's better from a unit standpoint, but he's lacking from a face standpoint.

Micaiah Emblem is very magic focused to be really a central team (and ordinary Micaiah is pretty outclassed by this point), but look at it this way, if Micaiah was a blue tome for all her incarnations, running a pure Micaiah team would be far worse than her mixed variation we have now.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

So if we accept that who a particular unit is has absolutely no bearing on how useful a particular unit is, the question becomes why should or shouldn't we put the same face on units of a similar build. And the answer for why we shouldn't is simply variety. If like Edelgard I won't really want basically a replacement Edelgard making my previous one obsolete (though of course power creep will make everything obsolete eventually, but if we're viewing things purely from an efficiency stand point, the faces are irrelevant, viewing it from a faces stand point means there are certain characters we want to use because we like them). I'd like a new Edelgard that can work in tandem with old Edelgard and make both of them worthwhile. And if I'm such an Edelgard fanboy I want to make a team composed of four different Edelgards, well then I'd much rather I could make that team with four units that cover each others weakness and incapabilities. Instead of having three axe armours and one axe infantry.

This is kind of subjective and depends on the person.

I personally do not care who my units are or what they look like. I appreciate having good artwork, but after playing the game for so long, I stopped caring about anything not related to game mechanics and getting resources. Despite my hatred for Surtr, I would have no issue with running a team full of Surtrs if they gave him a bunch of good player phase alts and Dancer/Singer alts. And despite Anna, Lucina, Loki, and Edelgard being my top favorite waifus, I do not use them very much outside of BH!Lucina, and I only use her in Aether Raids.

But in terms of aesthetics and theme teams though, I absolutely prefer characters being mono-color-mono-Weapon-mono-movement with 4 to 6 iterations, but I do not think any character has achieved this. The closest one doing so would be Hector and Celica with 3 iterations each, and Ike too if you lump his two game appearances together. Having 4 iterations being monotype just looks cohesive and nice on a defense team.

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47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Micaiah Emblem is very magic focused to be really a central team (and ordinary Micaiah is pretty outclassed by this point), but look at it this way, if Micaiah was a blue tome for all her incarnations, running a pure Micaiah team would be far worse than her mixed variation we have now.

If she keeps the same stat spread, sure

That's the interesting question. What is harder, Micaiah Emblem against a magic tank, or a team of (for example) Micaiah, Summer Laegjarn, NY Alfonse and Peony against a green unit?

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

This is kind of subjective and depends on the person.

I personally do not care who my units are or what they look like. I appreciate having good artwork, but after playing the game for so long, I stopped caring about anything not related to game mechanics and getting resources. Despite my hatred for Surtr, I would have no issue with running a team full of Surtrs if they gave him a bunch of good player phase alts and Dancer/Singer alts. And despite Anna, Lucina, Loki, and Edelgard being my top favorite waifus, I do not use them very much outside of BH!Lucina, and I only use her in Aether Raids.

But in terms of aesthetics and theme teams though, I absolutely prefer characters being mono-color-mono-Weapon-mono-movement with 4 to 6 iterations, but I do not think any character has achieved this. The closest one doing so would be Hector and Celica with 3 iterations each, and Ike too if you lump his two game appearances together. Having 4 iterations being monotype just looks cohesive and nice on a defense team.

I know it's personal preference. Hence this line.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

So if we accept that who a particular unit is has absolutely no bearing on how useful a particular unit is, the question becomes why should or shouldn't we put the same face on units of a similar build. And the answer for why we shouldn't is simply variety. If like Edelgard I won't really want basically a replacement Edelgard making my previous one obsolete (though of course power creep will make everything obsolete eventually, but if we're viewing things purely from an efficiency stand point, the faces are irrelevant, viewing it from a faces stand point means there are certain characters we want to use because we like them). I'd like a new Edelgard that can work in tandem with old Edelgard and make both of them worthwhile. And if I'm such an Edelgard fanboy I want to make a team composed of four different Edelgards, well then I'd much rather I could make that team with four units that cover each others weakness and incapabilities. Instead of having three axe armours and one axe infantry.

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23 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

All right, children, let's all agree to disagree and move on with our lives. This argument is honestly stupid and should've ended long ago.

People who didn't vote for any of the CYL winners (like myself) are allowed to be disappointed and/or annoyed that the fanbase as a general continues to vote characters who have and will get lots of alts to get more alts. People who like the CYL winners and voted for them are free to feel otherwise about that and be disappointed that IS chose the laziest way possible. Far as I can tell, what Baldrick said didn't really warrant any sort of special response other than ignoring him if you didn't agree with him. Poor wording aside, Tybrosion's reaction to him was overly hostile, and that dude has honestly reacted far, far worse about the OCs. With less of a calling out.

There's a reason why I chose to disengage long ago.

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

What we have here for the purpose of discussion are faces and units. By that I mean the unit is all the stats and skills a unit has, and a face is all the artwork and lines a character has. The characters Face may inspire the skills and design for a unit, but they are in a functional sense, completely interchangable. We could have had armoured axe Dimitri or bow flier Edelgard. If  we just swap the artwork you still have an identical unit for the purpose of gameplay. As far as gameplay is concerned what face is attached to the stat is completely irrelevant (outside of which series they originate from barring them from certain modes). This banner has a flying archer, an axe armour, a lance infantry and an infantry mage. We could swap the names and it wouldn't change anything about the functionality of those units.

So if we accept that who a particular unit is has absolutely no bearing on how useful a particular unit is, the question becomes why should or shouldn't we put the same face on units of a similar build. And the answer for why we shouldn't is simply variety. If like Edelgard I won't really want basically a replacement Edelgard making my previous one obsolete (though of course power creep will make everything obsolete eventually, but if we're viewing things purely from an efficiency stand point, the faces are irrelevant, viewing it from a faces stand point means there are certain characters we want to use because we like them). I'd like a new Edelgard that can work in tandem with old Edelgard and make both of them worthwhile. And if I'm such an Edelgard fanboy I want to make a team composed of four different Edelgards, well then I'd much rather I could make that team with four units that cover each others weakness and incapabilities. Instead of having three axe armours and one axe infantry.

Nice dichotomy. I have to say, when I first started playing FEH around a year ago, I only cared about the faces for sure, but now I think I've started to care about the unit more. It's like a 50-50 split for me now. As a total amateur back then, I still can't believe that I chose Brave Ephraim over Veronica even after consulting multiple F2P guides because I thought he looked cool. Sure, his art looks great, but he's just been sitting uselessly in my barracks ever since I got a Picnic Felicia, who I even refused to build for a little while because I had no idea who she was. (very fun unit, don't sleep on her)

That being said, what I'm pretty disappointed about is that IS gave us not enough unit variety with this banner when, in my opinion, easy solutions existed. I still think that, even if Brave Claude is pretty unique as is (idk, haven't built him up yet), Brave Lysithea still could have stood to be a colorless mage or staff user to set herself apart from OG Lysithea. In fact, Brave Lysithea's literally outclassed by her original because they fit the same niche: magic nuke. I think, give Brave Lysithea some more Res, change her color, and she could be a pretty decent magic tank with both speed and a player phase (differentiating herself from Bridal Micaiah).

20 hours ago, Baldrick said:

That's a fair point, though the variety can be a double-edged sword. When Bride Micaiah came out, I used up a fair chunk of my stash trying to get her, to no avail. I would have felt a lot worse about it if she wasn't basically making the normal/Brave versions obsolete.

Granted, you probably won't be beating any Abyssals with it since it has a large weakness to red units and is lacking in magic/ranged options, but apart from that Edelgard Emblem isn't too bad. You've got a standard def tank, a mixed tank that comes with Distant Ward and a useful QR/Deflect B Skill, and two nukes that charge in, one focused on guaranteed follow-ups and the other focused on taking up to three actions in a turn.

I sometimes use RGB Micaiah Emblem, and despite being colour balanced they don't cover each other's weaknesses well. I use Sothe as a substitute for Bride Micaiah and he's better from a unit standpoint, but he's lacking from a face standpoint.

Yeah, I'm actually not too unhappy with Brave Edelgard now that I've played around with her, because she's more unique that I thought she'd be. Despite the movement shenanigans, she fulfills a nice role that none of her counterparts really do. Honestly, though, it would have been cool to have a flying Edelgard with the same costume (maybe more Wyvern Lord-y, too). Or a red mage armored unit, because we desperately need more of those.

Short aside, but I'm currently stuck using Winter Tharja: like the unit, hate the face. The only reason why I haven't foddered her off despite her uniqueness is because of her "normal girl" antics that I kind of find funny, but I really don't like Tharja in FEH. 

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38 minutes ago, SirErrant said:

Or a red mage armored unit, because we desperately need more of those.

I think the only canon candidates for armoured mages are old Arvis, Edelgard and a bunch of generic Baron bosses.

In general, armours don't have a lot of candidates. Which is why I'm bemused at the fact that people always seem to resent seasonal armours. There should be a lot of them to fill out those niches.

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1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

I think the only canon candidates for armoured mages are old Arvis, Edelgard and a bunch of generic Baron bosses.

In general, armours don't have a lot of candidates. Which is why I'm bemused at the fact that people always seem to resent seasonal armours. There should be a lot of them to fill out those niches.

Edelgard isn't a canon armour mage. I really, really, really, seriously really, wish she was, but nether Armoured Lord nor Emperor can use magic in Three Houses. Which is all the more a shame they didn't go with it for this Brave Banner where canon is a more malleable thing. She has preference as an armoured unit. And preference as a magic unit. But not simultaneously. We could still get armoured mage Edelgard, but assuming we also get Hegemon Edelgard at some point it's really upping her alts to Camilla levels (unless Hegemon Edelgard is armoured mage Edelgard which is a possibility for them).

Also how dare you call Reptor and Blume generic bosses. They're major players in the story...who got like less than twenty votes in CYL T.T

I vote Nergal in as an armoured mage. True he isn't an actual armoured unit in game, but he wears a hell of a bulky costume in his Dark Druid sprite and he's a stationary boss. If they can make Grima and armoured mage Nergal is no big stretch.

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Edelgard isn't a canon armour mage. I really, really, really, seriously really, wish she was, but nether Armoured Lord nor Emperor can use magic in Three Houses.

One of the worst mistakes they made in Three Houses in my opinion. As it stands, Edelgard's Emperor class is just another axe armored one, while the two other lords almost hands down have the coolest and least used niches (lance infantry and bow flier). It wouldn't even be too much of a stretch, since Barons existed.

Shame that FEH had a chance to correct this mistake but didn't. Really hoping for an armored mage seasonal Edelgard or Hegemon Edelgard. (Fallen banner lineup with Edelgard, Dimitri, Rhea, and Nemesis, anyone?)

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

I vote Nergal in as an armoured mage. True he isn't an actual armoured unit in game, but he wears a hell of a bulky costume in his Dark Druid sprite and he's a stationary boss. If they can make Grima and armoured mage Nergal is no big stretch.

Honestly, Dark Druids do look an awful lot like armored units. It really wouldn't be too much of a stretch. 

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41 minutes ago, SirErrant said:

One of the worst mistakes they made in Three Houses in my opinion. As it stands, Edelgard's Emperor class is just another axe armored one, while the two other lords almost hands down have the coolest and least used niches (lance infantry and bow flier). It wouldn't even be too much of a stretch, since Barons existed.

Shame that FEH had a chance to correct this mistake but didn't. Really hoping for an armored mage seasonal Edelgard or Hegemon Edelgard. (Fallen banner lineup with Edelgard, Dimitri, Rhea, and Nemesis, anyone?)

Honestly, Dark Druids do look an awful lot like armored units. It really wouldn't be too much of a stretch. 

I remember some days ago I speculated a similar Fallen idea with Dedue as GHB. Hopefully it is the case. 

Perhaps Athos could also be an armored mage. 

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6 hours ago, SirErrant said:

One of the worst mistakes they made in Three Houses in my opinion. As it stands, Edelgard's Emperor class is just another axe armored one, while the two other lords almost hands down have the coolest and least used niches (lance infantry and bow flier). It wouldn't even be too much of a stretch, since Barons existed.

ANF!Edelgard is fine as is. She easily has the best mobility out of all melee armors, and her level mobility outclasses even the vast majority of infantry units.

Armor Stride and Armor March have a very different play style compared to Armored Boots and Flower Hauteclere. Armor March simply does not work well on a player phase team. While Armor Stride is passable, it still got some mobility issues due to positioning requirements.

In contrast, Armored Boots' strict HP requirement is pretty manageable on a player phase team as long as you are careful, and it works really well on ranged armors, especially on a Firesweep archer. ANF!Edelgard has that same level of mobility with an extremely lenient HP requirement, and she has Warp Powder on top. ANF!Edelgard is essentially a borderline cavalry unit with Follow-Up Ring.

Lance infantry and bow flier are not niches in my opinion; those are simply Weapon-movement classes. Combat units, support units, raw damage nukes, Galeforcers, Dancers/Singers, dual phase units, super tanks, Spd tanks, healers, etc. are niches. Most units can fill most combat niches regardless of their Weapon-movement combo. Support niches are more dependent on access to exclusive Weapons, exclusive skills, Dance/Sing, or staves.

ANF!Dimitri is a Spd/Def tank. I will agree that he is a pretty decent tank, but he is still essentially a blue BH!Ike, and a worse BH!Ike in my opinion. ANF!Dimitri and ANF!Lysithea are the least mechanically interesting units.

ANF!Claude is a faster ASS!Takumi, so while the extra 4 Spd is kind of a big deal, it is not anything game changing from a player phase perspective. ANF!Clause still has to run a Brave Bow or Firesweep Bow like most other archers since his exclusive bow is pretty crap for normal player phase play. From a dual phase perspective, I think this is where ANF!Claude stands out more in terms of uniqueness due to his better sustainability, but that is about it.

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6 hours ago, SirErrant said:

One of the worst mistakes they made in Three Houses in my opinion. As it stands, Edelgard's Emperor class is just another axe armored one, while the two other lords almost hands down have the coolest and least used niches (lance infantry and bow flier). It wouldn't even be too much of a stretch, since Barons existed.

Shame that FEH had a chance to correct this mistake but didn't. Really hoping for an armored mage seasonal Edelgard or Hegemon Edelgard. (Fallen banner lineup with Edelgard, Dimitri, Rhea, and Nemesis, anyone?)

Honestly, Dark Druids do look an awful lot like armored units. It really wouldn't be too much of a stretch. 

Hey it's not just that Barons exist, but the actual Emperor class itself used magic in Genealogy.

38 minutes ago, XRay said:

ANF!Edelgard is fine as is. She easily has the best mobility out of all melee armors, and her level mobility outclasses even the vast majority of infantry units.

Armor Stride and Armor March have a very different play style compared to Armored Boots and Flower Hauteclere. Armor March simply does not work well on a player phase team. While Armor Stride is passable, it still got some mobility issues due to positioning requirements.

In contrast, Armored Boots' strict HP requirement is pretty manageable on a player phase team as long as you are careful, and it works really well on ranged armors, especially on a Firesweep archer. ANF!Edelgard has that same level of mobility with an extremely lenient HP requirement, and she has Warp Powder on top. ANF!Edelgard is essentially a borderline cavalry unit with Follow-Up Ring.

Lance infantry and bow flier are not niches in my opinion; those are simply Weapon-movement classes. Combat units, support units, raw damage nukes, Galeforcers, Dancers/Singers, dual phase units, super tanks, Spd tanks, healers, etc. are niches. Most units can fill most combat niches regardless of their Weapon-movement combo. Support niches are more dependent on access to exclusive Weapons, exclusive skills, Dance/Sing, or staves.

ANF!Dimitri is a Spd/Def tank. I will agree that he is a pretty decent tank, but he is still essentially a blue BH!Ike, and a worse BH!Ike in my opinion. ANF!Dimitri and ANF!Lysithea are the least mechanically interesting units.

ANF!Claude is a faster ASS!Takumi, so while the extra 4 Spd is kind of a big deal, it is not anything game changing from a player phase perspective. ANF!Clause still has to run a Brave Bow or Firesweep Bow like most other archers since his exclusive bow is pretty crap for normal player phase play. From a dual phase perspective, I think this is where ANF!Claude stands out more in terms of uniqueness due to his better sustainability, but that is about it.

Were talking about Three Houses, not Heroes here. What brave Edelgard does is in no way tied to Edelgard as a character. She doesn't even have any movement increasing gimmicks in Three Houses. What we got with her we could have gotten with Alois or Brom or a dozen other units. That's the point here.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Were talking about Three Houses, not Heroes here. What brave Edelgard does is in no way tied to Edelgard as a character. She doesn't even have any movement increasing gimmicks in Three Houses. What we got with her we could have gotten with Alois or Brom or a dozen other units. That's the point here.

Lyn and Roy never fought on a horse and their play style is in no way tied to their play style in the main series Fire Emblem, and Galeforce was not even a thing until Awakening. What we got with Lyn and Roy could have been on a dozen other units.

That argument could be applied to literally any unit, not just Choose Your Legends units, so I do not see how Edelgard having another axe armor alt matters when this version's play style is already different enough from her two previous versions.

SirErrant's comment sounds like Weapon-movement class is the end-all-be-all factor of determining what a unit does, when in reality there are multiple other factors that also influences a unit's play style and niches, such as stat distribution and skills.

In this case, ANF!Edelgard is not just another axe armor. She is an axe armor with a jet pack attached and can do player phase, enemy phase, or dual phase as the player desires. Most armors can only do dual phase or enemy phase well, but struggle with player phase due to mobility. Player phase is out of the question for most armors unless the player wants to use Armored Boots or Armored Stride, but Armored Boots is limited to builds that avoid counter attacks and Armor Stride got positioning issues that makes using Dance/Sing-Reposition problematic.

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23 minutes ago, XRay said:

SirErrant's comment sounds like Weapon-movement class is the end-all-be-all factor of determining what a unit does, when in reality there are multiple other factors that also influences a unit's play style and niches, such as stat distribution and skills.

Not that I disagree, but SirErrant is just saying those are their final classes in Three Houses.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 PM, Jotari said:

Edelgard isn't a canon armour mage. I really, really, really, seriously really, wish she was, but nether Armoured Lord nor Emperor can use magic in Three Houses. Which is all the more a shame they didn't go with it for this Brave Banner where canon is a more malleable thing.

Well, Petra was malleable even though she was on a normal banner, so it's not like Brave Edelgard was the only opportunity to make her an armoured tome.

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6 hours ago, XRay said:

Lyn and Roy never fought on a horse and their play style is in no way tied to their play style in the main series Fire Emblem, and Galeforce was not even a thing until Awakening. What we got with Lyn and Roy could have been on a dozen other units.

 

Uh...yeah. Exactly. That's why people wanted something other than another axe Edelgard.

6 hours ago, XRay said:

 

SirErrant's comment sounds like Weapon-movement class is the end-all-be-all factor of determining what a unit does, when in reality there are multiple other factors that also influences a unit's play style and niches, such as stat distribution and skills.

 

Sir Errant's comment wasn't about Three Houses thought.

16 hours ago, SirErrant said:

One of the worst mistakes they made in Three Houses in my opinion. As it stands, Edelgard's Emperor class is just another axe armored one, while the two other lords almost hands down have the coolest and least used niches (lance infantry and bow flier). It wouldn't even be too much of a stretch, since Barons existed.

 

 

6 hours ago, XRay said:

In this case, ANF!Edelgard is not just another axe armor. She is an axe armor with a jet pack attached and can do player phase, enemy phase, or dual phase as the player desires. Most armors can only do dual phase or enemy phase well, but struggle with player phase due to mobility. Player phase is out of the question for most armors unless the player wants to use Armored Boots or Armored Stride, but Armored Boots is limited to builds that avoid counter attacks and Armor Stride got positioning issues that makes using Dance/Sing-Reposition problematic.

Yes, Brave Edelgard is a good unit. No one is disputing that. What we're disputing is whether Brave Edelgard should have been that unit. We could have given Claude an axe and armour and made him the exactly same roller skating armoured unit.

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Not that I disagree, but SirErrant is just saying those are their final classes in Three Houses.

Well, Petra was malleable even though she was on a normal banner, so it's not like Brave Edelgard was the only opportunity to make her an armoured tome.

Well as I said above, if we do get an Armoured Mage Edelgard then we're looking at yet another Edelgard alt which (assuming she gets Hegemon Edelgard at some point) would push her number of alts very high. Unless Hegemon Edelgard is the Armoured Edelgard. Still we might see a summer Edelgard as an Armoured Mage, it very likely won't be a normal banner Edelgard though.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Uh...yeah. Exactly. That's why people wanted something other than another axe Edelgard.

Legendary Dimitri and Legendary Claude are pretty much guaranteed to have the exact same weapon types as both of their existing versions, so why is Edelgard so different simply by the fact that she's already gotten her Legendary version? We're still going to end up with 3 lance Dimitris, 3 bow Claudes, and 3 axe Edelgards, and the third version of each one is still likely to share a movement type with one of their previous versions (though Legendary Claude could end up as infantry instead, I guess, and potentially a different color, I guess, though I'd rather we get more colorless Legendaries).

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2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Legendary Dimitri and Legendary Claude are pretty much guaranteed to have the exact same weapon types as both of their existing versions, so why is Edelgard so different simply by the fact that she's already gotten her Legendary version? We're still going to end up with 3 lance Dimitris, 3 bow Claudes, and 3 axe Edelgards, and the third version of each one is still likely to share a movement type with one of their previous versions (though Legendary Claude could end up as infantry instead, I guess, and potentially a different color, I guess, though I'd rather we get more colorless Legendaries).

Edelgard isn't special (though she does have a guaranteed alt above the other two thanks to the Flame Emperor). She just popped up as a topic of conversation as being an armoured mage. I absolutely would like Dimitri and Claude to be different per the OP (though less so Dimitri since we're monstrously short on canonical lance infantry in Heroes).

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Brave Edelgard is a good unit. No one is disputing that. What we're disputing is whether Brave Edelgard should have been that unit.

It's not just that she's a good unit. It's that she has a distinct niche that makes her worth getting even if you have her other versions.

Brave Micaiah is a good unit. But she fills the same niche as her other versions, which means both she doesn't cover their weaknesses and she makes them obsolete.

Heroes is more strategically complex than Rock Paper Scissors.

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

We could have given Claude an axe and armour and made him the exactly same roller skating armoured unit.

IS could have.

IS could have also made Brave Ike a cavalry bow, Roy an axe unit using Urvan, Lyn a lancer Great Lord and Lucina cosplaying as Eliwood. 

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55 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

It's not just that she's a good unit. It's that she has a distinct niche that makes her worth getting even if you have her other versions.

Brave Micaiah is a good unit. But she fills the same niche as her other versions, which means both she doesn't cover their weaknesses and she makes them obsolete.

Heroes is more strategically complex than Rock Paper Scissors.

And she'd be equally worth getting in that regard if she were someone else.

55 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

IS could have.

IS could have also made Brave Ike a cavalry bow, Roy an axe unit using Urvan, Lyn a lancer Great Lord and Lucina cosplaying as Eliwood. 

Indeed they could have. But Brave Ike, Roy and Lyn are already sufficiently different from their default counterparts in creative ways for me. What is your point exactly?

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24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And she'd be equally worth getting in that regard if she were someone else.

In that case, she wouldn't contribute to Edelgard Emblem so there's no face-based reason to deploy her with other Edelgards.

- "Brave Edelgard lacks variety, and this is bad because faces matter"

/ "But Brave Edelgard has variety, so if faces matter it's not bad"

- "But faces don't matter"

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What is your point exactly?

Some people may have considered the CYL1 units too similar to another hypothetical alt.

Also that your criteria for variety overestimates the importance of having different colours over different niches.

Edited by Baldrick
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2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

In that case, she wouldn't contribute to Edelgard Emblem so there's no face-based reason to deploy her with other Edelgards.

- "Brave Edelgard lacks variety, and this is bad because faces matter"

/ "But Brave Edelgard has variety, so if faces matter it's not bad"

- "But faces don't matter"

Okay, how about we put things on a spectrum. On one end you have units that do the exact same thing. On the other end you have units that do wildly different things. Yes, it's great that Brave Edelgard plays so uniquely. But she would still have more variety from other Edelgards if she were using a lance. Likewise, Tibarn and Pirate Tibarn do the same things. But they would do the same thing more if they were both the same colours. Variety is not a binary. Things can be more or less different from each other.

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Some people may have considered the CYL1 units too similar to another hypothetical alt.

Also that your criteria for variety overestimates the importance of having different colours over different niches.

But none of the CYL1 characters are similar to their default counterparts (or any subsequent alts they had that I can think of)?

Edited by Jotari
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26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Variety is not a binary. Things can be more or less different from each other.

I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing that colour is the most decisive variable for variety. Claiming this batch of CYL heroes to be boring based on their weapon/movement types alone is implying:

- Brave Edelgard is another axe armour, so she can't play differently from Flame Emperor/Legendary.

- Brave Micaiah is a flying green mage, so she inherently plays differently from normal/Bride Micaiah.

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But none of the CYL1 characters are similar to their default counterparts (or any subsequent alts they had that I can think of)?

Brave, Summer and Legendary Lyn are all bow users with good attack and great speed, suited for player phase combat. Legendary Lyn has dual phase potential with her spectrum form like A skill but it's rather underpowered, even for its time.

Lucina has a similar stat spread in all her alts, but especially the Brave and normal versions which are both player phase dragon killers. The drivebot utility is unique, but isn't as niche-defining as Raging Storm v Black Eagle Rule are.

Roy is pretty sword-heavy, Heavy Blade/Guard/Impact is a neat combination but it doesn't affect his role that much.

Ike is pigeonholed into being another atk/def tank with a special acceleration. He uses damage reduction instead of Distant Counter and is the most unique, but he still fills the same role as the normal/Legendary versions.

They aren't on the level of Alm/Micaiah but they're not as unique as you think they are.

 

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2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Brave, Summer and Legendary Lyn are all bow users with good attack and great speed, suited for player phase combat. Legendary Lyn has dual phase potential with her spectrum form like A skill but it's rather underpowered, even for its time.

Lucina has a similar stat spread in all her alts, but especially the Brave and normal versions which are both player phase dragon killers. The drivebot utility is unique, but isn't as niche-defining as Raging Storm v Black Eagle Rule are.

Roy is pretty sword-heavy, Heavy Blade/Guard/Impact is a neat combination but it doesn't affect his role that much.

Ike is pigeonholed into being another atk/def tank with a special acceleration. He uses damage reduction instead of Distant Counter and is the most unique, but he still fills the same role as the normal/Legendary versions.

They aren't on the level of Alm/Micaiah but they're not as unique as you think they are.

 

Well for one, Brave Lyn was the first archer Lyn, so if we're going to critisize it's legendary Lyn who would get the brand of unoriginal there. Though Legendary Lyn did introduce mixed bow colours into the game as a new concept (and she's Infantry as opposed to mounted), so even if she comes across as similar to Brave Lyn she was still developing the game in a different fashion. If Legendary Lyn was another colourless bow unit then yeah she wouldn't be as creative compared to her brave counter part. And if she was another colourless bow unit on a horse then it'd be reaching the "what's the point of the other one" territory. You're also dismissing the drive bot a bit too much on Lucina, I use normal and Brave Lucina both very differently (don't have a Summer Lyn at all as it happens so no comment on her). Normal Lucina I stack up with Bond skills to make use of her Falchion while Brave Lucina I wouldn't even put into combat as much due to her pretty great support utility. The number of non red options for dragon slaying effects also pretty massive lopsidded so tossing it on her refine isn't exactly a detriment even if it's not that massively useful.

Look, colour/weapon and movement are not the be all and end all of every character. We have far more units than the different combinations of each one that exist. BUut just because it's not the be all and end all, doesn't mean these things are unimportant too. Heroes is more strategically complex than Rock, Paper, Scissors, but Rock, Paper, Scissors is still a pretty core mechanic too. If you're perfectly satisfied with these new units because they work well as units with unique effects and play styles, then good for you. But it does sort of matter to me. Brave Edelgard and Legendary Edelgard play somewhat different. But if Brave Claude was running Brave Edelgard's kit then he'd play a hell of a lot more differently than any other Claude we've seen or are likely to see.

Edited by Jotari
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17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well for one, Brave Lyn was the first archer Lyn, so if we're going to critisize it's legendary Lyn who would get the brand of unoriginal there.

You've criticised Brave Claude for being similar to his potential Legendary.

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're also dismissing the drive bot a bit too much on Lucina, I use normal and Brave Lucina both very differently (don't have a Summer Lyn at all as it happens so no comment on her). Normal Lucina I stack up with Bond skills to make use of her Falchion while Brave Lucina I wouldn't even put into combat as much due to her pretty great support utility. The number of non red options for dragon slaying effects also pretty massive lopsidded so tossing it on her refine isn't exactly a detriment even if it's not that massively useful.

Outside of an all-dragon team in AA I wouldn't use Brave Lucina with normal Lucina, or any two dragon slayers together.

 

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Look, colour/weapon and movement are not the be all and end all of every character. We have far more units than the different combinations of each one that exist. BUut just because it's not the be all and end all, doesn't mean these things are unimportant too. Heroes is more strategically complex than Rock, Paper, Scissors, but Rock, Paper, Scissors is still a pretty core mechanic too. If you're perfectly satisfied with these new units because they work well as units with unique effects and play styles, then good for you. But it does sort of matter to me. Brave Edelgard and Legendary Edelgard play somewhat different. But if Brave Claude was running Brave Edelgard's kit then he'd play a hell of a lot more differently than any other Claude we've seen or are likely to see.

But why are they important? There's resonant and limited hero battles, so a balance among each game is important, but whether this particular unit has Edelgard or Claude's face on it has no effect on gameplay.

You may dislike a character powercreeping themselves, some others may like it or not care. But as long as each game has a different options for limited battles, is there anything objectively bad about it?

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6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

You've criticised Brave Claude for being similar to his potential Legendary.

 

Ah touche. Still I stand by what I said about Legendary Lyn introducing new stuff to the game.

8 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Outside of an all-dragon team in AA I wouldn't use Brave Lucina with normal Lucina, or any two dragon slayers together.

Why not? I wouldn't really pair them off together as a habit (Brave Lucina goes wherever she needs to go to be useful). But I can't really see any issue with pairing them together, they'd synergize well together. Unless the logic is just "I'm facing a dragon team therefore Julia is better". To which I'd refer back to how the dragon slaying is appreciated, but not really the main point of Brave Lucina (though Brave Lucina on a team with Julia would help her iffy speed a bit).

6 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

You've criticised Brave Claude for being similar to his potential Legendary.

Outside of an all-dragon team in AA I wouldn't use Brave Lucina with normal Lucina, or any two dragon slayers together.

 

But why are they important? There's resonant and limited hero battles, so a balance among each game is important, but whether this particular unit has Edelgard or Claude's face on it has no effect on gameplay.

You may dislike a character powercreeping themselves, some others may like it or not care. But as long as each game has a different options for limited battles, is there anything objectively bad about it?

No, there's nothing objective here. It's subjective. You're right that it makes no difference to gameplay. That's not something that's been shied away from.

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