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6 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

It depends on if he promises those girls a monogamous relationship or not, if he is honest about his intentions ,that wouldn't be cheating. I am not certain which one is the case, as I don't remember all the details. 

Well, in his support with Byleth, Byleth sees he'd broken a girl's heart and Sylvain is like "so what if I date other girls?" So yeah, he's dating multiple girls at once which is cheating. So if he's dating multiple girls behind their backs, and he sleeps around, he's most likely sleeping with multiple girls behind their backs too.

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44 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Now, what if the scenario was more like, say, World War II? The US dropped atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm pretty sure a ton of innocent people and even children were killed there. And much of the towns were decimated in some way. But it was done to end the war before tons more lives were lost. Lives were lost anyway, but a lot more would have been had the war continued since Japan refused to surrender.

Japan was on the verge of surrendering, though, as they were about to face war with the US and Russia; there are even recordings the emperor made that confirm this. There are also recordings suggesting that Truman approved of dropping the bombs not to end the war with Japan, but to scare Russia before going into post-war negotiations. But I'd rather not start a debate about the nuclear bombs.

Going back to discussing Sylvain, sorry that I ruined the Sylvain character for you by pointing out that advice box question. 

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2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Japan was on the verge of surrendering, though, as they were about to face war with the US and Russia; there are even recordings the emperor made that confirm this. There are also recordings suggesting that Truman approved of dropping the bombs not to end the war with Japan, but to scare Russia before going into post-war negotiations. But I'd rather not start a debate about the nuclear bombs.

Going back to discussing Sylvain, sorry that I ruined the Sylvain character for you by pointing out that advice box question. 

Yeah, I'd rather not discuss that either, it's way off topic anyway.

It's not your fault, don't worry. You didn't write Sylvain that way. xP

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42 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, in his support with Byleth, Byleth sees he'd broken a girl's heart and Sylvain is like "so what if I date other girls?" So yeah, he's dating multiple girls at once which is cheating. So if he's dating multiple girls behind their backs, and he sleeps around, he's most likely sleeping with multiple girls behind their backs too.

This is probably true, but we also know relatively little about courtship customs in Fodlan. We know that arranged and love relationships exist, and that certain power dynamics (like class/wealth) affect those relationships like in our world. But ladies of presumably lower status than either Sylvain or Lorenz frequently reject them, without fear of consequences (Dorothea is of course a contrasting example). And homophobia apparently doesn't exist at all (even though in our world it's a systemic issue that arose in part from the interweaving of church and state in Western countries, and the subsequent effects of that on family structure, which Fodlan also has). So while we can guess that Fodlan has broadly similar romance to what we are familiar with, we can't flat out assume it's the same. 

As a result, it's entirely possible that the boundaries of romantic relationships are very fuzzy outside of key customs like engagement and marriage, and thus that there isn't an expectation of exclusivity for noble-born men when 'dating'. No doubt this is a result of some kind of overarching patriarchy/misogyny stuff going on in society (cf. Dorothea getting "slut-shamed" and Seteth banning Flayn from relationships for that double standard), although of course Byleth breezes through that. Anyway, it'd be reasonable to think that romance in Fodlan has not evolved to the standards we today might expect from relationships, and is far more marred by ideals of masculinity we'd consider toxic. Which might mitigate some of the things misogynistic characters say/do in the game for you.

Obviously, all this doesn't necessarily make Sylvain not an ass, or excuse some of his words/actions, but it's a factor in how we understand his relationship to women nonetheless. 

Edited by haarhaarhaar

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40 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

This is probably true, but we also know relatively little about courtship customs in Fodlan. We know that arranged and love relationships exist, and that certain power dynamics (like class/wealth) affect those relationships like in our world. But ladies of presumably lower status than either Sylvain or Lorenz frequently reject them, without fear of consequences (Dorothea is of course a contrasting example). And homophobia apparently doesn't exist at all (even though in our world it's a systemic issue that arose in part from the interweaving of church and state in Western countries, and the subsequent effects of that on family structure, which Fodlan also has). So while we can guess that Fodlan has broadly similar romance to what we are familiar with, we can't flat out assume it's the same. 

As a result, it's entirely possible that the boundaries of romantic relationships are very fuzzy outside of key customs like engagement and marriage, and thus that there isn't an expectation of exclusivity for noble-born men when 'dating'. No doubt this is a result of some kind of overarching patriarchy/misogyny stuff going on in society (cf. Dorothea getting "slut-shamed" and Seteth banning Flayn from relationships for that double standard), although of course Byleth breezes through that. Anyway, it'd be reasonable to think that romance in Fodlan has not evolved to the standards we today might expect from relationships, and is far more marred by ideals of masculinity we'd consider toxic. Which might mitigate some of the things misogynistic characters say/do in the game for you.

Obviously, all this doesn't necessarily make Sylvain not an ass, or excuse some of his words/actions, but it's a factor in how we understand his relationship to women nonetheless. 

Yeah, these are all fair points. I still don't REALLY want to have to kick Sylvain out of my favs anyway. There are still a number of things I really like about him regardless of this new revelation. This one detail still kind of bugs me, but yeah.

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A good point Felix brings up to his dad is in his Paralouge where his dad seems more worried about a dead man's opinion of him over actually protecting his subjects. 

Also my favorites not including the dlc characters not in any order

 

1. Caspar

2. Bernie

3. Edelgard

4. Hubert

5. Felix

6. Flayn

7. Seteth

8. Claude

9. Dimitri

10. dedue

 

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Dorothea is a very good character like Mercedes Mercedes looks like the innocent non Pervy nun but in her a support straight out says that they are the person they are attracted too. Dorothea DOESNT cheat that I agree what I see is a girl being flirty but AT MOST PUPPY STARES OF COMPASSION at old men for money/survival 

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5 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

No doubt this is a result of some kind of overarching patriarchy/misogyny stuff going on in society (cf. Dorothea getting "slut-shamed" and Seteth banning Flayn from relationships for that double standard), although of course Byleth breezes through that.

Tbh, I thought Seteth was just being a stereotypical overprotective dad who can't stand to see his daughter with anyone, not neccisarily anything to do with slut-shaming.

Wait... when does Dorothea actually get slut-shamed in-story? All the Dorothea-bashing I've heard has come from the fanbase (Apparently, Japan hates her for not being housewife material.), not from the game. That's why I've got such little tolerance for it. Especially since most of it isn't even true.

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1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

Wait... when does Dorothea actually get slut-shamed in-story? All the Dorothea-bashing I've heard has come from the fanbase (Apparently, Japan hates her for not being housewife material.), not from the game. That's why I've got such little tolerance for it. Especially since most of it isn't even true

A couple of her supports do it- off the top of my head her Linhardt b support is a good example, where the knights are gossiping and implying that she used her sexuality to get into the academy. Felix doesn’t let her anywhere near him because he assumes that she’s trying to get with him, which I guess is a form of “slut-shaming”.

 

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2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Tbh, I thought Seteth was just being a stereotypical overprotective dad who can't stand to see his daughter with anyone, not neccisarily anything to do with slut-shaming.

Wait... when does Dorothea actually get slut-shamed in-story? All the Dorothea-bashing I've heard has come from the fanbase (Apparently, Japan hates her for not being housewife material.), not from the game. That's why I've got such little tolerance for it. Especially since most of it isn't even true.

Fortunatly Dorothea is rather popular with western audiences. 

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Dorothea was one of the most used units in the game though, and she also scored high on CYL. If Japan hates her, then the fanbase must have a really large portion in the west...

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3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Wait... when does Dorothea actually get slut-shamed in-story?

1 hour ago, Anathaco said:

A couple of her supports do it- off the top of my head her Linhardt b support is a good example, where the knights are gossiping and implying that she used her sexuality to get into the academy.

Yeah the Linhardt support is exactly the incident I was thinking of. 

3 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Tbh, I thought Seteth was just being a stereotypical overprotective dad who can't stand to see his daughter with anyone, not neccisarily anything to do with slut-shaming.

Yeah I think this is a valid interpretation - but the Flayn thing was supposed to be evidence of patriarchy/sexism, rather than slut-shaming specifically. It was (and is) common practice for fathers to have a great deal of say in the romantic relationships of their daughters, borne from the idea that daughters are somehow the property of the father; this is something we see to some extent elsewhere in Fodlan (with Ingrid and her father).

The reason I interpreted Seteth here in this less charitable way is that some lines of early monastery dialogue with Flayn, a monastery conversation with Seteth where his approval to your answer about Flayn's whereabouts changes based on Byleth's gender, and Flayn's Sylvain support, confirm Seteth is worried about men specifically getting close to Flayn. Her lack of S-rank F!Byleth support is decent evidence that she's straight, and thus that Seteth is particularly concerned about potential sexual contact. I'm sure Seteth only has the best of intentions, and his paternalistic attitude (towards everyone) is predominantly the result of his age and personality, but the fact that he outright prohibits his adult daughter (regardless of her presumed naivete) from close contact with men suggested to me attitudes we'd call 'old-fashioned'. Like, the overprotectiveness itself stems from patriarchal stuff.

As a side note, his personal is called Guardian (Overprotective in the Japanese) and only triggers for women. Which could suit either of our interpretations (but perhaps yours a little more). 

Edited by haarhaarhaar

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14 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah the Linhardt support is exactly the incident I was thinking of. 

Yeah I think this is a valid interpretation - but the Flayn thing was supposed to be evidence of patriarchy/sexism, rather than slut-shaming specifically. It was (and is) common practice for fathers to have a great deal of say in the romantic relationships of their daughters, borne from the idea that daughters are somehow the property of the father; this is something we see to some extent elsewhere in Fodlan (with Ingrid and her father).

The reason I interpreted Seteth here in this less charitable way is that some lines of early monastery dialogue with Flayn, a monastery conversation with Seteth where his approval to your answer about Flayn's whereabouts changes based on Byleth's gender, and Flayn's Sylvain support, confirm Seteth is worried about men specifically getting close to Flayn. Her lack of S-rank Byleth support is decent evidence that she's straight, and thus that Seteth is particularly concerned about potential sexual contact. I'm sure Seteth only has the best of intentions, and his paternalistic attitude (towards everyone) is predominantly the result of his age and personality, but the fact that he outright bans his adult daughter (regardless of her presumed naivete) from close contact with men suggested to me attitudes we'd call 'old-fashioned'.

 

It’s also good to point out that Flayn is actually a saint that’s supposed to have been dead forever , and this is kept secret for her safety by Seteth himself, and it’s strongly implied that it gets her kidnapped during that whole incident. This in tandem with her interest in romance/having a partner that’s implied or shown in her Ignatz, Dimitri, Linhardt, and Claude supports. The Claude and Linhardt supports may be loose, but she talks about how Cethleann was never said to be married or have kids with a sort of wistfulness like she wishes it were so. In her Dimitri support she pretty heavily implies she’s interested in him, and while one dude wouldn’t inherently make her interested in romance itself, she is very interested in what Ignatz thinks of Cethleann. Combine this with her saint hood, and all an Agarthan or someone else who would target her has to do is get her interested in them and lure her away. Plus, she does look a lot like a child, so most people at the monastery wanting to pursue a romance with her would be questionable, save maybe Cyril. Ignoring that fact however, I think the biggest potential other factor in this is that we don’t know how exactly sainthood works in terms of their development. We know that they live longer, but that’s it. Seteth and Rhea look much older than Flayn, but in the grand scheme of things considering they’ve been around for like a thousand years (or more), if Flayn’s mom gave birth to at a normal human time, she should look around the same age as Seteth and Rhea, meaning that she could potentially be a lot younger than them for all we know. As a saint/Nabatean, she might effectively be a child, as it’s obvious that her physical development is slower, so why not her mental development? Think dog years vs. human tears. Although Flayn being a child in “saint years” makes S-supporting her really weird, so I should stop.

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11 hours ago, Sooks1016 said:

As a saint/Nabatean, she might effectively be a child, as it’s obvious that her physical development is slower, so why not her mental development? Think dog years vs. human tears. Although Flayn being a child in “saint years” makes S-supporting her really weird, so I should stop.

Yeah you're right, Nabatean physiology might be different enough that Flayn is mentally/physically equivalent to a child, despite her age. Given that she's been sleeping for a long time (though it is said she woke up at least several years before 3H begins) that might also contribute to her being younger than her years.

But, you know, that opens up more questions than answers. What is it to be a (Nabatean) adult, and is there an age threshold for agency? If Flayn really is child-adjacent, then it's strange she was fighting Nemesis as one of four elite Nabateans under Rhea. And if she's old enough to fight, she's probably old enough to be concerned with romance (even if power dynamics are messy with the students/Byleth). Lysithea and Cyril are the youngest monastery characters, and while neither of them show much of an interest in romance in Part I, both of them are happy to be soldiers, and seem to think they are adult enough for anything (though that's more a part of their maturity issues rather than a reflection on societal attitudes). But they aren't alone amongst the students in this - lots of the kids have had to act as adults for different reasons, and while in most cases it's unfair circumstances, this might suggest that society at large sees them as responsible for themselves (i.e. adult) at an earlier age than we do with children. Let's also not forget that Ingrid was betrothed to Glenn from childhood, which means had Glenn not died she could very easily have become what we call a 'child bride'. And it certainly occurs in the real world that women we'd describe as 'children' get into romantic relationships, with varying levels of agency. 

For our purposes, though, we're currently interested in whether Seteth prohibiting Flayn from dating is influenced by patriarchal attitudes. We have a few father-child relationships to compare with, some of which do seem to have internalised patriarchal attitudes, but since those are all human they may not be as useful comparisons. A romantic relationship could very well be a threat to Flayn for any number of reasons, like you say, and that is certainly Seteth's logic. But it isn't Flayn's, and her Seteth support makes it clear that he knows she doesn't want this. For Seteth to prevent Flayn from close contact with people despite knowing this suggests a failure to acknowledge Flayn's agency whatsoever. Even ignoring what she did as Cethleann, as Flayn she is capable of expressing her will and acting responsibly, which makes me think she's old enough for Seteth's level of control to be excessive. And the only reason Seteth can be comfortable in exercising that control is if he thinks he has the right to, and that he has full power over her - an idea which ultimately comes from patriarchal attitudes. At least, that's how I've been seeing it.

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16 hours ago, Anathaco said:

A couple of her supports do it- off the top of my head her Linhardt b support is a good example, where the knights are gossiping and implying that she used her sexuality to get into the academy. Felix doesn’t let her anywhere near him because he assumes that she’s trying to get with him, which I guess is a form of “slut-shaming”.

Oh, I hadn't even seen the Linhardt support. I didn't use Lin enough on my first CF to get many of his supports (Got Byleth C and Petra C for some strange reason). I'll definitely go give it a look, though. Felix I assumed was just pissing about Dorothea talking to him at all, not so much her intentions.

15 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Dorothea was one of the most used units in the game though, and she also scored high on CYL. If Japan hates her, then the fanbase must have a really large portion in the west...

She's a lot more popular in the west, I think. You still see a few people here and there make sexist comments about her, but overall she's a very well-liked character in the western fanbase.

23 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I still don't REALLY want to have to kick Sylvain out of my favs anyway. There are still a number of things I really like about him regardless of this new revelation. This one detail still kind of bugs me, but yeah.

I mean, characters have flaws. If Sylvain was perfect, you wouldn't like him. Nobody would, really. Flaws are what make characters human. I could go back to my list and name something flawed about every one of them, even Lysithea here sipping tea in my profile pic. But that doesn't make them bad people, just people. It's the kind of people they are, flaws and all, that makes us enjoy them as characters. I wouldn't throw Sylvain away just yet if I were you. Especially after all the positive things you've said about him, which are still a part of his character too. Even with Felix, I didn't bench him the moment I thought he treated someone unfairly. I saw his supports through to A before deciding whether I liked him or not. But in the end, it's totally your call. These are just my thoughts.

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1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

Oh, I hadn't even seen the Linhardt support. I didn't use Lin enough on my first CF to get many of his supports (Got Byleth C and Petra C for some strange reason). I'll definitely go give it a look, though. Felix I assumed was just pissing about Dorothea talking to him at all, not so much her intentions.

She's a lot more popular in the west, I think. You still see a few people here and there make sexist comments about her, but overall she's a very well-liked character in the western fanbase.

I mean, characters have flaws. If Sylvain was perfect, you wouldn't like him. Nobody would, really. Flaws are what make characters human. I could go back to my list and name something flawed about every one of them, even Lysithea here sipping tea in my profile pic. But that doesn't make them bad people, just people. It's the kind of people they are, flaws and all, that makes us enjoy them as characters. I wouldn't throw Sylvain away just yet if I were you. Especially after all the positive things you've said about him, which are still a part of his character too. Even with Felix, I didn't bench him the moment I thought he treated someone unfairly. I saw his supports through to A before deciding whether I liked him or not. But in the end, it's totally your call. These are just my thoughts.

I would second that, Edelgard and Dimitri sure aren't my favourites for being perfect. 

Ironically, flaws is a major part of what makes a character likeable, there aren't anything more unlikable than someone perfect, which is why Mary Sue's and Gary Stue's are usually so hated. But it also kind of connects to another observation I have made, having character flaws might actually be a necessary ingredient in even having empathy. If we didn't have flaws ourselves, how can we understand and sympathise with the shortcomings of others? 

Take my favourite, Edelgard. She has made her fair share of mistakes, but I do understand where she's coming from due to her past. I wouldn't love her nearly as much as I do if she weren't fallible

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17 minutes ago, Darkmoon6789 said:

Ironically, flaws is a major part of what makes a character likeable, there aren't anything more unlikable than someone perfect, which is why Mary Sue's and Gary Stue's are usually so hated.

That's not the only reason Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are widely disliked; they unnaturally distort the plot around themselves so they are the center of all that's important (just look at Corrin from Fates), worsening the plot, and they are also considered boring because, where other characters would struggle, the story bends over backwards for them so they don't have to struggle to overcome anything. 

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1. Edelgard
2. Dimitri (Part 1 Dimitri would be swapped with Felix)
3. Felix
4. Claude
5. Hilda
6. Sylvain
7. Constance
8. Marianne
9. Dorothea
10. Byleth (Bland, but always a great unit)

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4 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

I mean, characters have flaws. If Sylvain was perfect, you wouldn't like him. Nobody would, really. Flaws are what make characters human. I could go back to my list and name something flawed about every one of them, even Lysithea here sipping tea in my profile pic. But that doesn't make them bad people, just people. It's the kind of people they are, flaws and all, that makes us enjoy them as characters. I wouldn't throw Sylvain away just yet if I were you. Especially after all the positive things you've said about him, which are still a part of his character too. Even with Felix, I didn't bench him the moment I thought he treated someone unfairly. I saw his supports through to A before deciding whether I liked him or not. But in the end, it's totally your call. These are just my thoughts.

Well yeah, I never said Sylvain had to be perfect. He wasn't perfect already. He's just more imperfect than expected, I suppose.

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All that stuff about Sylvain is why he dropped pretty hard for me, honestly. He used to be in my Top 10, but that was when I was still in my "first impressions" stage of Three Houses and hadn't fully explored everything yet. I still think Sylvain is a well-written character, and one I...kinda like? But he's taken a pretty hard fall from where he used to be, now he's outside not just my Top 10, but also my Top 20. But hey, even liking a character outside a Top 20 list speaks to how well I think Three Houses handled its characters!

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1. Dimitri
2. Mercedes
3. Marianne
4. Claude
5. Seteth
6. Yuri
7. Balthus
8. Edelgard
9. Petra
10. Flayn

I like Seteth, he gives good advice to and cares for the students. He helps many of them in his supports, along with Manuela. His over-protectiveness of Flayn stems from how he allowed her to fight in the war and she nearly died, being put in a deep slumber. This is also why Flayn fears sleeping (mentioned on a few occasions)

For Dimitri, I find his story powerful, everyone piles their expectations on him, which is especially annoying after the skip because he's been on the run and homeless for five years and none of them try to help him recover save Byleth and Rodrigue. Even in the academy days, he was obsessed with revenge but just hiding it, it's only when he himself learns that his own life has value and he can live for himself that really he says his blind revenge wasn't the right thing to do and wouldn't help anyone.

Marianne: I relate, I suffer from severely low self esteem and often believe there's no value in my life. I find her character growth inspiring, plus using Blutgang is always fun.

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In no particular order:

1. Claude

2. Marianne

3. Annette

4. Dimitri

5. Petra

6. Lysithea

7. Linhardt

8. Mercedes

9. Hapi

10. Ignatz

 

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Other than Rhea the list isn't in any particular order. I like almost everyone to a certain degree so this was kinda hard.  Might say something or not if it's characters I haven't really talked about before. Trying to avoid a full on Blue Lion sweep was..... difficult. 

1. Rhea

2. Dimitri

3. Ashe - Him and Caspar are funny. I always liked Ashe, Caspar was a mixed bag at first, but then I saw the cat mom support and instantly fell in love with the two as a pairing. My love for them has only grown~. Ashe as a character is just so incredibly sweet and humble that it makes me smile and a little sad. The inability to let go of his past deeds is pretty sad when he's genuinely a good person. 

4. Caspar - Endearing and he's hilarious, his support with Hubert had me crying. I also think he's very strong character, emotionally speaking. Crest significance and nobility is such a heavy burden it's no wonder a good chunk of the cast just can't handle it but Caspar pushes through. Admittedly he seems to have a "normal" family but the societal pressure is huge.  Plus he gets a lot of points for cat mom ^^^

5. Flayn - I don't get how Flayn looks a like a child nor how she's childish :L. Anyways, I think she's endearing and pretty funny at times. Fruit ninja with Felix came out of no where and the way she knocks Sylvain down a peg via ridiculous rumours made me cry 😂. Her fear of abandonment is also just too relatable, minus the whole immortality thing, and made me pretty emotional.

6. Felix 

7. Mercedes

8. Marianne

9. Seteth

10. Ferdinand

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Since I kind-of like to use the same team every playthrough, I will not mention Byleth and/or the main lord of that route.

  1. Lysithea. Not only because of Warp, but also very strong magic. She is always my top priority in getting, unless I play Golden Deer, the route I like the least.
  2. Leonie. Very strong in whatever she does. Great "personal" weapon from her Gaiden chapter.
  3. Sylvain. Maybe not as strong as Ferdinand, but pretty close. Possible to recruit whenever you like (female Byleth).
  4. Ingrid. Flying princess, or at least to me. I dislike me needing to rig ATK level ups though.
  5. Petra. Though I like to recruit her fast, not that into her swordsplay. But as a pegusus knight she rocks.
  6. Felix. In my first playthrough I made him a Mortal Servant, because I was too lazy to invest in training something else but his sword. Much better with other ranks.
  7. Hilda. For some reason I had trouble getting her in Blue Lions. Disliked the part her being impossible to get in Crimson Flower. 
  8. Mercedes. My favorite healer. I think she is rather cute when she is young. Alot of lost potential there...
  9. Marianne. She goes toe to toe with Linhardt for me. Still need to try her as a dancer some day.
  10. Catherine. Pretty strong early in the game, with a free stronigh Brave weapon. With NG+ she is better. But requires training in your first few playthroughs.

 

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